- 3,531
- 582
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact AKM sama if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
Roronoa Zoro vs Sasaki Kojiro
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
- Status
- 36,522
- 11,012
Good thing you choose The Assasin Kojiro instead his Saber Key, i was typed "Tsubame Gaeshi GG" until i realize this is his base version
- 8,854
- 8,909
- 2,500
- 1,240
Sasaki has the AP advantage however knowing this Zoro would use his own amps as well as go for his dura neg techniques. They both have sensory abilities that enable each other to know the others next move.
Sasaki has knowledge of respect and harmony meaning that Zoro will not be able to adapt to his techniques as it states "Assassin's techniques cannot be properly perceived by his opponents no matter how many times they're demonstrated. As a result, it is impossible for an opponent to get used to them. Thus the tenth, hundredth, or even thousandth encounter against him will feel the same as the first, so his techniques will always retain their effectiveness against his opponents."
While I don't think this will screw over Zoro, it just means that fighting him will be more difficult, ultimately we will need to compare the skill of both characters as that's what I think imo will decide the fight.
As a plus for Sasaki, he has Vitrification which allows him to resist fear hax from Zoro however I don't think that it will allow him to conceal himself from kenbun haki, the statement says, "Due to Assassin's serene state of mind, he is immune to mental interference. In addition, his B+ Rank in this skill allows him to conceal his presence if he pleases, allowing him to simulate the True Assassin's Presence Concealment skill to a limited extent, making it difficult for even Servants to detect along with his lack of mana and a true Noble Phantasm." so One Piece supporters take that as you will.
This is not a vote for Sasaki however as I'd like to see how Zoro counters this or if I forgot something for Zoro, I am leaning on Sasaki however.
Sasaki has knowledge of respect and harmony meaning that Zoro will not be able to adapt to his techniques as it states "Assassin's techniques cannot be properly perceived by his opponents no matter how many times they're demonstrated. As a result, it is impossible for an opponent to get used to them. Thus the tenth, hundredth, or even thousandth encounter against him will feel the same as the first, so his techniques will always retain their effectiveness against his opponents."
While I don't think this will screw over Zoro, it just means that fighting him will be more difficult, ultimately we will need to compare the skill of both characters as that's what I think imo will decide the fight.
As a plus for Sasaki, he has Vitrification which allows him to resist fear hax from Zoro however I don't think that it will allow him to conceal himself from kenbun haki, the statement says, "Due to Assassin's serene state of mind, he is immune to mental interference. In addition, his B+ Rank in this skill allows him to conceal his presence if he pleases, allowing him to simulate the True Assassin's Presence Concealment skill to a limited extent, making it difficult for even Servants to detect along with his lack of mana and a true Noble Phantasm." so One Piece supporters take that as you will.
This is not a vote for Sasaki however as I'd like to see how Zoro counters this or if I forgot something for Zoro, I am leaning on Sasaki however.
- 36,522
- 11,012
Another thing i should mention is that the Tsubame Gaeshi, once Kojiro landed it to Zoro it's pretty much game over, even Artoria instinct skill can't reacted that much on this technique (remember, instinct = kenbushoku haki)
Good thing this is the normal Tsubame Gaeshi, Saber Kojiro Tsubame Gaeshi is even more busted lel
Good thing this is the normal Tsubame Gaeshi, Saber Kojiro Tsubame Gaeshi is even more busted lel
- 6,772
- 1,798
What is Sasaki's AP? If the gap is higher than 3x or 4x i legit don't see Zoro closing it.
Also, dura neg? Breath isn't dura neg anymore, can't remember any other.
- 10,720
- 2,911
Sasaki's AP is 24 gigatons
- 8,854
- 8,909
Zoro has a plethora of amps that he can stack on top of each other, and while I personally see a 5x gap as something he should be able to plausibly close, it's not something I can conclusively prove.
Since Kojiro also has pretty decent senses and Precog of his own, that's not even something that Zoro can exploit. And I'm pretty sure Servant Physiology takes care of Fear Hax and Paralysis (correct me if I'm wrong).
So idk, this is looking kinda stompish.
Since Kojiro also has pretty decent senses and Precog of his own, that's not even something that Zoro can exploit. And I'm pretty sure Servant Physiology takes care of Fear Hax and Paralysis (correct me if I'm wrong).
So idk, this is looking kinda stompish.
- 10,720
- 2,911
Servant physiology would nullify conqueror's haki and fear stuff yeah
And they also have their own fear aura that works on weaker foes and there's a 5x gap at the start here, which is the same amp that the servants with working fearhax have compared to other servants so A
- 8,854
- 8,909
Yeah, I'm not sure if Zoro can do anything here.
- 13,869
- 7,840
Comparing Kenbun to Artoria's dogshit instinct is laughable tbh.
Tsubame shouldn't be an issue for Zoro to evade or dodged, Saber did it with a much less impressive form of Precog (Zoro has Kenbun which gives him mind reading and some levels of future sight, whilst also have 2 separate forms of prediction.) and Tsubame works by bending space yes? Zoro is already resistant via Haki.
Zoro has also kept up with various other users with prerogative abilities, such as other Goken users (Ryuma and Denjiro come into mind.) and Kaku who possessed Kenbun Haki (which Zoro lacked at the time. The two were consistently reading each others moves throughout the fight.) so he has plenty of experience in combating those with precog on his level.
What are Sasaki's win cons?
Tsubame shouldn't be an issue for Zoro to evade or dodged, Saber did it with a much less impressive form of Precog (Zoro has Kenbun which gives him mind reading and some levels of future sight, whilst also have 2 separate forms of prediction.) and Tsubame works by bending space yes? Zoro is already resistant via Haki.
Zoro has also kept up with various other users with prerogative abilities, such as other Goken users (Ryuma and Denjiro come into mind.) and Kaku who possessed Kenbun Haki (which Zoro lacked at the time. The two were consistently reading each others moves throughout the fight.) so he has plenty of experience in combating those with precog on his level.
What are Sasaki's win cons?
- 13,211
- 8,383
Damage Boost (Through Goken he is capable of cutting people and objects he normally couldn't with his regular attacks) it's quite similar to Dura neg...
- 3,531
- 582
- Thread starter
- #14
An approximately 6x AP gap in his favor, though that's without Haki or Ashura taken into consideration. Whether that reasonably clears the gap, I have no idea
- 13,211
- 8,383
The Monohoshi Zao, while a finely crafted weapon, is still mundane. This means that it will chip or bend if forced to clash directly against something not made by men, like Saber's Excalibur. Tsubame Gaeshi can only be performed properly if performed on level ground and will become imperfect if the Monohoshi Zao is bent or chipped in combat, leaving gaps through which a swift enough opponent can dodge.
Zoro will definitely find this weakness and utilize on this with armament haki
Zoro will definitely find this weakness and utilize on this with armament haki
- 13,869
- 7,840
Ah I see. What does Sasaki scale to value wise and does he upscale or downscale from it? Zoro has a pretty big boost with Haki and his various other Stat amps, and has Goken and Dragon-Blaze to compensate.
Also is this the Sasaki with the "infinite skill hur"?
- 8,854
- 8,909
- 13,869
- 7,840
Yeah then they should definitely be comparable in terms of skill, hell I'd probably even argue Zoro still holds that advantage in that regard.
Does Sasaki scale above or below 24 Gigatons?
Does Sasaki scale above or below 24 Gigatons?
- 3,531
- 582
- Thread starter
- #19
Base Sasaki is still able to reach into true magic for Tsubame Gaeshi without actually knowing magic for what that's worth
- 3,531
- 582
- Thread starter
- #20
I'm not entirely sure, probably lower since he's on of the weaker servants
- 10,720
- 2,911
Saber is also resistant via multiple layers of resistance and it still worked, not to mention Sasaki has his own Precog.
Also
"much less impressive"
Saber's precog works on causality-altering attacks
Passive fearhax that bypasses servant resistances, skillstomping into oblivion, a 6x AP gap, Stealth that nullifies ESP and Senses on the level of servants, etc.
Uhhh Last i checked Zoro's weapons are made by men and not Tier 1 divine gods lmao
"Zoro is more skilled than sasaki"
Sasaki reached the level of tier 1 true magic via sheer sword skill, this is fucking laughable
- 13,211
- 8,383
No they are not... They are made by supernatural willpower (Haki)
- 3,531
- 582
- Thread starter
- #23
They were made by men, then Zoro enhcances them Haki
- 13,869
- 7,840
Saber's resistance comes from simple Magic iirc, and I don't recall her base resistance being "several layers."
Which doesn't mean much, any precog depending on it's mechanics would be able to replicate the same thing. Her precog is limited in terms of how consistent it is and how far it can detect, she isn't any Katakuri let alone Yhwach.
Gonna ask for citation on that one, I Heavily disagree with base Sasaki skill stomping and a 5x (at most.) isn't a valid reason to vote considering Zoro has countermeasures.
When did I say they were tier 1? Miss me with that shit.
Again, Base Sasaki is being used here not Infinity Sasaki, so again irrelevant. Really just reading what you want there aren't you bud?
- 13,211
- 8,383
Black blades are not just crafted by men they are crafted with Haki
- 13,211
- 8,383
Haki is not made by men.
- 13,869
- 7,840
Yes and no, the swords themselves are still made by a human but after an advanced Buso user embues it the Blade becomes impeccable and peerless. Black Blade's are made from the will of the user, and that changes the composition of the blade itself.
- 10,720
- 2,911
Your own scan debunks your statement. They're normal blades that are infused with haki. At best that gives them the base ability to even hurt Sasaki in the first place, and comparing them to a Low 6-B Divine Construct being wielded by someone who's stronger than Sasaki
She has A+ rank resistance which is not only resistance but active powernull
Lmao why are you bringing Yhwach into a one piece vs fate fight, bleach fans are hilarious
And Katakuri has better observation than Zoro anyway so you really don't wanna go down that road.
Man you're really hung up on this one statement
buddy, Sasaki is over 400 years old, the weapon possesses a shitton of mystery, that statement literally only applies to shit like servant weapons which haki ain't
It's on the servant physiology page
That is Base Sasaki.
- 13,211
- 8,383
- 10,720
- 2,911
I don't understand what the point you're trying to make here is, Shusui having high durability doesn't equate to several tiers higher of AP. If you think Zoro should be 6-B with Shusui then make a CRT for it
- 13,869
- 7,840
A+ is irrelevant unless that taps into 4-D resistances, and as far as I'm aware she doesn't. Power null is also irrelevant as I'm not arguing for or against that ability, I'm strictly talking spatial manipulation so lets not change directions.
To a share an analogy because you were making it seem like Saber has some sort of omni precog? Also not really sure what me being a Bleach fan (which I hardly get involved with nowadays.) has to do with anything, well aside from you attempting to be condescending. Hmm go on.
Doesn't matter, Zoro's level of Kenbun Haki already grants him more than one type of Precog, and Kenbun has excellent growth rates so evolving into FS isn't impossible. My example was mainly to show Zoro's experience in combating those with precog.
No, the scan of Sasaki's fear manipulation isn't there. And by the way, that's not even something he has access to going by his profile. Going by the profile only Infinity Sasaki has fear manipulation.
Base Sasaki hasn't reached Infinity nor has he any feats on a tier 1 level.
- 13,211
- 8,383
- 10,720
- 2,911
You're the one that still thinks Tsubame Gaeshi is somehow spatial manipulation.
Please point out where I said that Saber had anything of the sorts. Hmm go on.
Ah of course, famous characters that Zoro has combatted with precog, Yhwach and Katakuri
Servant Physiology. All servants have it, Gin. That's why we have it on the physiology page.
That is literally what Tsubame Gaeshi is. Sword skill that reaches the level of True Magic. He doesn't need infinity for that.
- 10,720
- 2,911
Now be so kind as to not quote my posts on here again, dealing with your notifications is a chore, and I haven't figured out how to ignore users on the horrid layout of this forum.
- 1,744
- 1,159
No need to be toxic, my friend.
- 10,720
- 2,911
You literally just did exactly what i just said not to do
- 13,869
- 7,840
Nah it's good, he's one of those omniscient big brain Nasu fans.
- 6,772
- 1,798
Nah, not really.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Yes really... You cut at and angle with perfect presicion and speed that the dura you are cutting doesn't matter...
- 13,211
- 8,383
Servant Physiology
Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...
vsbattles.fandom.com
if he does then stomp
- 6,772
- 1,798
That's not what Breath of All things does.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Tell me what does it do then
- 13,869
- 7,840
Breath of All Things basically does that, not that it matters much since a Breath based attack on direct flesh is going to give you the same results more or less.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Daz bonez
Durability:
far higher against cutting and piercing attacks (weapons utilized by marine officers could not even scratch him, and he was even capable of stopping an attack from Dracule Mihawk despite later being cut down [though this may be attributed to Mihawk utilizing Haki to bypass his Devil Fruit functions]).
Stopped a 6-b attack and Zoro did this (Mihawk also has damage boost or could be haki... But looks more like Goken)
Durability:
far higher against cutting and piercing attacks (weapons utilized by marine officers could not even scratch him, and he was even capable of stopping an attack from Dracule Mihawk despite later being cut down [though this may be attributed to Mihawk utilizing Haki to bypass his Devil Fruit functions]).
Stopped a 6-b attack and Zoro did this (Mihawk also has damage boost or could be haki... But looks more like Goken)
Eminiteable
He/Him
- 6,741
- 5,263
Which version of Zoro is this?
- 3,531
- 582
- Thread starter
- #47
Wano
- 6,772
- 1,798
"By sensing his opponent's "breath", he can determine the speed, power and angle of where he should cut at, drawing his sword at great speeds to cut through iron!!"
And as you can see in the CRT Emini did here, one of it's limitations is the durability of the target (shown by both Kuma and the underground tunnel), so give me some proof it will help in a nearly 6x gap.
- 15,435
- 10,021
Hello~
I'm here hihi
btw, who is more skilled?
also, I don't think that 5x AP gap is enough to kill Zoro, as a far weaker Zoro had no problem to stand alive against an attack that added up all Luffy pain (Luffy is made by Rubber, so, physical damage isnt that much to him, but he even already was knocked out due immense damage and pain) into him, and he stand up conscious and alive, despite that even luffy was knocked out by it, and Luffy is made by rubber
I'm here hihi
btw, who is more skilled?
also, I don't think that 5x AP gap is enough to kill Zoro, as a far weaker Zoro had no problem to stand alive against an attack that added up all Luffy pain (Luffy is made by Rubber, so, physical damage isnt that much to him, but he even already was knocked out due immense damage and pain) into him, and he stand up conscious and alive, despite that even luffy was knocked out by it, and Luffy is made by rubber
- 13,869
- 7,840
Anyway Zoro should take this, he might have lower AP but can compensate via amps like Asura, Gorrila based attacks and Haki, and Goken, having 3 separate forms of Prediction (2 from skill, one being from the Breath, one being mental imagery, and the last being from Kenbun.) would help him in reacting to Sasaki's attacks, and has experience in fighting against prediction users.
Zoro could also debatably copy Sasaki's attacks as he's been shown to copy unique abilities in the past. Also Zoro has already reached the "pinnacle." of all swordsmanship in One Piece, giving him basically what is a bootleg version of Musashi's "Zero." by entering a state of mind one can reach the pinnacle of Swordsmen ship, in Zoro's case that being Goken.
Zoro could also debatably copy Sasaki's attacks as he's been shown to copy unique abilities in the past. Also Zoro has already reached the "pinnacle." of all swordsmanship in One Piece, giving him basically what is a bootleg version of Musashi's "Zero." by entering a state of mind one can reach the pinnacle of Swordsmen ship, in Zoro's case that being Goken.
Eminiteable
He/Him
- 6,741
- 5,263
As for the AP Gap:
Base Zoro here scales to one-shotting Apoo and his weapon which scale to Hybrid X-Drake who's scaling chain looks like this:
"Hybrid X Drake > Post-Udon Gear Third > Post-WCI Gear Third = Awakening Katakuri > Cracker = Dressrossa Boundman = 4.3 Gigatons"
Zoro on top of that can enhance both his attack potency and durability with armament haki, before acquiring Enma his Busoshoku Haki allowed him to one-shot Killer and destroy his weapon, Killer who was completely equal with Zoro in his base state, and now with Enma it draws out even more of his own Haki than he ever could normally meaning it's a far greater amp than it was before.
With Asura in the pre-timeskip it allowed him to go from getting completely overwhelmed by Yontoryu Hybrid Kaku to reducing his strongest attack to mist and one-shotting him. And in the post-timeskip (this key) he stacks it with his Busoshoku Haki.
He can also further enhance with Goken (which allowed him to one-shot Mr. 1 when previously none of his attacks did any damage) and by enhancing his muscle mass which allowed him to overpower Zoan Kaku, both of which can be stacked with everything else mentioned above.
So he scales far above 4.3 Gigatons in just base and can stack a lot of amps to further make up the difference.
Base Zoro here scales to one-shotting Apoo and his weapon which scale to Hybrid X-Drake who's scaling chain looks like this:
"Hybrid X Drake > Post-Udon Gear Third > Post-WCI Gear Third = Awakening Katakuri > Cracker = Dressrossa Boundman = 4.3 Gigatons"
Zoro on top of that can enhance both his attack potency and durability with armament haki, before acquiring Enma his Busoshoku Haki allowed him to one-shot Killer and destroy his weapon, Killer who was completely equal with Zoro in his base state, and now with Enma it draws out even more of his own Haki than he ever could normally meaning it's a far greater amp than it was before.
With Asura in the pre-timeskip it allowed him to go from getting completely overwhelmed by Yontoryu Hybrid Kaku to reducing his strongest attack to mist and one-shotting him. And in the post-timeskip (this key) he stacks it with his Busoshoku Haki.
He can also further enhance with Goken (which allowed him to one-shot Mr. 1 when previously none of his attacks did any damage) and by enhancing his muscle mass which allowed him to overpower Zoan Kaku, both of which can be stacked with everything else mentioned above.
So he scales far above 4.3 Gigatons in just base and can stack a lot of amps to further make up the difference.
Last edited:
- 13,869
- 7,840
Also worth noting that Zoro is probably gonna get bumped to 9-22 Gigatons.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Wait HOW IS THIS NOT A STOMP? 
Does he have all of that?Servant Physiology
Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...
If only they did something like this to the Haki Page
- 13,211
- 8,383
- Soul Manipulation: A Servants main sustenance is mana, but they can consume souls to maintain themselves into the world.
- Absorption: Besides souls, a Servant may rely on consuming the essence of Shadow Servants, who are made of residual magical energy that have coalesced into the form of a fake Servant.
- Invulnerability: Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Wait is it a stomp? 
- 13,869
- 7,840
Servants don't usually soul rip, not sure if they can absorb people and Zoro can bypass the third was since his swords have mystery via age, curses and Haki.
- 13,211
- 8,383
What about absorbstion?
Loyd
He/Him
- 3,106
- 1,085
its not a stomp,
skim through it again, the Uses section is really mehfor now i guess
Resistances are better but its against hax, zoro with his skill and swords is fine against it.
skim through it again, the Uses section is really meh
Resistances are better but its against hax, zoro with his skill and swords is fine against it.
pretty sure they don't soul rip.
only against a defeated, shadow servant.
his swords are pretty mystical its fine.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Well Zoro FRA (should be able to one shot and evade alot of attacks with skill and haki while finding and utilizing weaknesses)
- 36,522
- 11,012
For that, there is statement about servants can hurt their spirit origin against each other iirc
- 36,522
- 11,012
Anyway would this revision affected this match: https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-global-hax-revisions.123210/
This is basically the wide nasuverse we're planned for long time
This is basically the wide nasuverse we're planned for long time
- 4,589
- 1,702
To note, Kojiro can fight and damage characters who have more AP than him, actually the normal thing for him is to be several times weaker in the strength aspect against the enemies he fight.
His presence is hard to feel to others servants, and lets remeber servants can feel souls, emotions, power, abstracts beings, all the acausality types (except 5), nonexistent type 2 and possibly even more than I could be forgetting, so let me doubt that Zoro could actually feel him or analysis him.
Kojiro have fight against people with precognition like Saber who is above Mordred who dodged a completely surprise attack from someone with precognition while she was fighting someone else and even made him retreat, can dodge causality attacks and to some extent attacks that work with paralel world hax mechanic. So I highly doubt that the precognition of Zoro would actually be a treat against him.
Regarding skill aspect he is basically above everything else in the verse aside from Musashi and Yagyu, that mean that he is far above characters that can copy styles at first sight (like Izou), characters who can wield anything they encounter for the first time at a level above people who spend all their lives mastering said objet (like Raikou who quite literally picked a random yoyo for the first time and can fight and even surpass other servants who are legendaries heroes), above characters who's skill is of legendary class even though they are under effects of mental interference that make them literally crazy (like Raikou or Lancelot). So I don't think Zoro have a skill advantage.
And servanst can also affect souls with their attacks, not only absorpt them, this is the reason of why they can damage in their fights their spirit origins (souls), a scan for it was added and accepted in a crt of Crim time ago but he forgot to add it to the page.
His presence is hard to feel to others servants, and lets remeber servants can feel souls, emotions, power, abstracts beings, all the acausality types (except 5), nonexistent type 2 and possibly even more than I could be forgetting, so let me doubt that Zoro could actually feel him or analysis him.
Kojiro have fight against people with precognition like Saber who is above Mordred who dodged a completely surprise attack from someone with precognition while she was fighting someone else and even made him retreat, can dodge causality attacks and to some extent attacks that work with paralel world hax mechanic. So I highly doubt that the precognition of Zoro would actually be a treat against him.
Regarding skill aspect he is basically above everything else in the verse aside from Musashi and Yagyu, that mean that he is far above characters that can copy styles at first sight (like Izou), characters who can wield anything they encounter for the first time at a level above people who spend all their lives mastering said objet (like Raikou who quite literally picked a random yoyo for the first time and can fight and even surpass other servants who are legendaries heroes), above characters who's skill is of legendary class even though they are under effects of mental interference that make them literally crazy (like Raikou or Lancelot). So I don't think Zoro have a skill advantage.
And servanst can also affect souls with their attacks, not only absorpt them, this is the reason of why they can damage in their fights their spirit origins (souls), a scan for it was added and accepted in a crt of Crim time ago but he forgot to add it to the page.
- 36,522
- 11,012
Might as well bring the scan to here
- 4,589
- 1,702
More than the wide revision is a lesser version of the wide revision since the original revisions were supposed to cover many things from the Lostbelts, but since that will be delayed this is good.
I can find the scan of that time with Medusa.
Edit: Here
Last edited:
- 13,869
- 7,840
Such as?
I severely doubt all Servants are capable of sensing non existent characters, all acausal types and so on and so forth.
First of all, Mordred doesn't have God tier Precog for being able to dodge surprise attacks from people with Precog. Her precognition isn't spammable nor is it as consistent as Kenbun Haki which is passive.
If you want I can post some scans on Zoro's stuff but I don't see anything that places Sasaki's skill above Zoro's with the examples you've given. Izo is definitely impressive but he's held back in the fact that he doesn't try and from what I remember he doesn't actually "master." the abilities he copies, Zoro can do the same and arguably use them to a greater degree. That's nice in terms of overall skill, I'm however only arguing sword skill, so Raikou is irrelevant. I also really doubt Base Sasaki is >>> Raikou in terms of skill.
I'd need to see the link for that being accepted.
- 36,522
- 11,012
I mean his skill level isn't the same level as Raikou, but i get your point there, the reason i didn't bring skills advantage here is because both Kojiro and Zoro skill are in exact same level, albeit Zoro is a bit higher
I also remember Kojiro was defeated by Musashi so there's that
I also remember Kojiro was defeated by Musashi so there's that
- 36,522
- 11,012
Reminded me, servants should get an NPI as they can hurt and kill a ghost as seen in FGO
- 4,589
- 1,702
- 36,522
- 11,012
- 1,744
- 1,159
That's hardly a factor at all.
0) Zoro has fought more precognition users than Kojiro, in fact precognition is commonplace in the New world and there are people whose precognition is a whole different level than Saber's. Your argument is basically "Kojiro has fought against precognition users, thus he beats Zoro", when Saber's precognition isn't even remotely close to being on the same. Dodging surprise attacks is something even a priest from Skypia and Eneru has done. Even beginning of the Time-skip Luffy could dodge surprise attacks, while thinking about Hancock's lunch.
1) "Being above all else" isn't saying much, that might be impressive in his verse, but if you were to compare it to other verses it purely depends on the skill feats.
2) Zoro's two years training consisted of fighting against strong animals, who perfectly imitated Zoro's three swords style after seeing it once. Even Mihawk -- the strongest swordsman in One piece was extremely confident that those monkeys could beat a skilled swordsmaster such as Zoro, to his surprise Zoro defeated all of them while being in his worst state. In other words, Zoro is capable of defeating his own self-developed swords style and techniques, and enemies who can copy styles.
3) "legendaries heroes", nice titles, so what exactly are their best skill feats, because being "legendary" and "god" doesn't always necessarily mean it's a "GG Skill feat". After all, in One piece we have got a crazy guy claiming to be God, who's also worshipped by many people as one.
Last edited:
- 13,211
- 8,383
Obs Haki can sense/see emotions, intentions, How powerful someone is, presence/souls/spiritual energy, the future, invisible things, long distances, X ray vision, enhanced hearing, instinctive Reactions, Precognation that out precogs other precog users and many more...
Zoro can copy styles that have been perfected in a supernatural way at first sight and make it even better, able to use no swords style, Mastered his own fight style, able to cut things with pure skill meaning he can cut nothing and everything he wants by using his will on his sword by just remembering what someone told him (he learnt that pre timeskip early on), Makes new perfected techniques on the spot and can win against multiple Animals that copied his techniques and Fighting style perfectly and is able to fight and defeat everyone of them (surpassing himself every fight) and many more like being able to fight in the air, underwater, on weird angles and more
- 4,589
- 1,702
Cú, Saber, Heracles, any servant with strength above Rank D is various times stronger than him.
They can sense nonexistent type 2 beings like Kama, abstract like Kama itself and gods in general like Romulus or abstract that isn't a god like Nobuna Avenger, they can feel acausalities like BB (who have type 1, 2, 3 and 4), Mushashi, and even some of the characters I mentioned in the other parts also have acausality.
Her instincts in the level of precog let her feel surprise attacks from other character that also have precog like Chirion and win a fight against him, could feel something approaching faster that the systems of Chaldea because of them, how one can spam instincts? Instincts are always active, you can't spam them. The instinct of Artoria are above Mordred and even so she almost lose against Kojiro.
I think you have a missunderstanding, the attack Mordred dodged is from someone that see the future, the attack was intented to kill her while she was fighting other servant, and when the two of them fought Chirion needed to retreat.
Even if one want to argument that the precog of Mordred is shit, you also want to argument that Zoro have better precog than Saber even though she can dodge acausality attacks and attacks with paralel worlds haxs mechanic? Because as far I now in One Piece no one reacted to things like that, and again, even though she had that level of precog Kojiro almost defeat her, just lossing because luck.
1 and 2) In fate with skill alone one can even modify their body to grow other arm and things like that, in the case of Kojiro his skill reached the level of the Second Magic that is a tier 1 magic that have paralel world hax. This Kojiro reach that level with his skill, it just that different to his other two keys in this one he is nerfed and can only make three slashes instead of infinite.
3) Good that in One Piece things are like that, in Fate when someone is called a god they most of the times have various types of haxs and tier 1 things. Regarding the legendary heroes they have feats of fight even though they have their hearts crushed or are wounded to the point of been literally dead, repeal entire armies, defeat monsters feared by entires countries, and more, but well, I can say it to you that the character that can fight with a yoyo even though using it for the first time is above in skill that Red Hare who mastered every martial art even though he have the body of a horse and can perfectly adapt and fight in any enviroment even if is his first time experiencing it.
And in general there are more
Since Base Sasaki also reach the realm of True Magic he is indeed superior in terms of skill to Raikou.
There was accepted and no one was against it, it's also something common because a lot of times they affect the spirit origins of others, they can even modify their spirit origin.
In fate souls are higher d so I really doubt that it would matter even if haki resist soul attacks.Haki should resist but not accepted yet
- 13,211
- 8,383
Zoro is able to manipulate his own body as well by manipulating his muscles and stuff... Tho things you listed aren't even skill in swordsmanship or even correlate to it
Zoro as well... Even against crazy hax devil fruit users and somehow countering it by learning on the spot a technique that's very effective specifically to the opponent he is fighting
Zoro many times was supposed to die but somehow survives death everytime by only his supernatural willpower (link, link, link, link, link, link, link, link, link and link) I very much doubt Sasaki will even be able to put this Zoro on the verge of death as in post timeskip he has never fought anyone serious... Also if Sasaki were to somehow put Zoro in the verge of death, Zoro would probably get even Stronger (Reactive Power Level) and make a new technique that specifically works effectively on his opponent
Last edited:
- 1,744
- 1,159
"Modred dodged is from someone that see the future, the attack was intended to kill her" not really impressive, considering that Sanji dodged Katakuri's jelly bean that was also intended to kill him, despite the fact that Sanji foresaw getting shot by the priest and not by Katakuri, yet was able to dodge it. It's also important to note that Katakuri has these abilities granted to him; Extrasensory Perception, Telepathy, Precognition, Information Analysis, Enhanced Senses, and Instinctive Reaction. Luffy also dodged several attacks by exact same guy who can see the future for 12 hours. Now you are wondering, why am i bringing up Luffy and Sanji? because it's pretty clear if one or two of the monster trio are capable of performing a similar feat, then Zoro naturally can do the same thing as well, despite his specialization not being Kenbunshoku haki (Zoro had crazy evasion skills and senses before he unlocked Kenbunshoku haki)
First of all, scans please. And secondly Future sight>Precognition, it's inherently better, regarding to my "Modred's precognition" argument her dodging hax-based attacks doesn't automatically make it better, because SHE STILL got hurt by non-haxed abilities and attacks. To me, it sounds like contradictory if you were to claim her precognition is that good, then shouldn't she get hurt by things she easily could have foreseen? and shouldn't she be known for her precognition? if i were to make a comparison between Katakuri and Modred, Katakuri consistently and constantly dodges things and abilities he foresees and counters those accordingly to the point that he's rumored that no opponent ever laid a hand on him, and what's Modred's?
You are only listing off Haxes and not real Skill feats. Also "can only make three slashes instead of infinite" it's an ability/hax and not "Skill". We are always under the assumption that Haxes doesn't equate to Skills. For examples, Frieza blowing up a planet doesn't make him the most skilled person or Byakuya from Bleach using millions of swords doesn't make him the most skilled person in bleach.
Again, Haxes doesn't equate to Skills, Haxes and Skills are entirely two different things. Kenshin from Ruruoni Kenshin may be more skilled than most swordsman i know, but his abilites/haxes are weak by comparison. "they have feas of fight even though they have their hearts crushed or wounded to the point been literally dead", you are now confusing "Regen" with "Skill" also a half-dead zoro one-shotted the most dangerous assassin from the west blue and defeated the skilled & strongest fishman from Arlong's crew, despite still suffering from the wound he received from the world strongest swordsman, who's also 20x stronger than him. "Repeal entire armies, defeat monsters feared by entires countries" It's not saying much, the Shishibukai are feared by 10 to 20 million islands, they are also fairly known in the New world (Since that's the purpose of the Shishibukai system to make the pirates fear in tremble) also defeating monsters and people, who are feared by literal countries and islands is something the strawhats do on the daily-basis. Even the likes such as "Krieg" and "Kuro" were feared by the East blue, they even referred to Krieg, as the "Strongest man from the east blue" (Don't get me started with Zoro's reputation as the pirate hunter). Zoro in this key can also adapt in every environment, such as Punk hazard and Drum island.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Well... Zoro FRA
- 13,211
- 8,383
Pre timeskip Zoro can also fight against opponents who are to fast for him to see and who has precog and wins by only skills and will power without using precog/obs haki...
WrongIdea21
He/Him
- 3,882
- 1,936
Zoro FRA
- 36,522
- 11,012
@RazumaHiroki If that's the case everything from Rakudai is considered as haxs than skill by that logic
- 36,522
- 11,012
Anyway, i'm gonna loyal here so my vote goes to Kojiro FRA
Expectro might be voted too based from his arguments
Expectro might be voted too based from his arguments
- 4,589
- 1,702
I think something is needed to make clear because there are some confusion with it, I know this sound weird but in Fate skill alone make things impossible possible and grant haxs to their users, someone with skill enough with the words can brainwash people (like Caesar), someone with skill enough telling stories can alterate reality with their stories (like Scheherazade), someone with skill enough in medicine can reopen old and mistreated wounds with a single movement (like Nightingale). In the case of Kojiro his skill let him reach the realm of the Second True Magic that control parallel worlds.
But well, setting aside the skill part for a bit I would also like to hear counter for Zoro regarding the other things like the presence of Kojiro and so.
But well, setting aside the skill part for a bit I would also like to hear counter for Zoro regarding the other things like the presence of Kojiro and so.
It was pretty clear but anyways Kojiro FRA.
- 1,744
- 1,159
You are misunderstanding me, not every Hax is a "Skill feat". Nor does most Haxes equate to AP/DC. The things he/she brought up weren't "skill feats" at all, unless you wanna argue that spamming infinite sword slashes is skilled, when there's already an existing definition for it aka that falls under the category "Hax"/"Ability". Allow me to ask you questions, would you think Gilgamesh, who spams his GOB out of boredom skilled? and someone (Let's say a swordsman novice) whose ability allows him "to cut everything".
Now what a real skill feat looks like for example, someone without power, advantages, special bloodlines, etc etc. Beats someone who's a swordsman that’ve 400 years of COC experience.
- 36,522
- 11,012
I already contacted @Paul_Frank @Regidian and @John985 to make it clearer about the whole skills issue
PrinceofPein
Username Only
- 7,452
- 4,172
I will say this real quick this, no
one in one piece has an impressive precog like saber. Like seriously someone who can precog acausal attacks >>>>>>> anything in one piece. Kojiro fighting saber and piping her a while already shows zoro precog is not a factor here and also let me add
one in one piece has an impressive precog like saber. Like seriously someone who can precog acausal attacks >>>>>>> anything in one piece. Kojiro fighting saber and piping her a while already shows zoro precog is not a factor here and also let me add
Kojiro FRA and my reasons
Last edited:
- 36,522
- 11,012
For the novice swordman, yes it counted as skillfull as capable to cut everything can't be achieved by a mere swordmasters, even for someone who trained for a years or more so
Gil is pretty much an outlier tbh since despite not skilled, he's the embodinment of every treasure of entire world
Raikou and Lancelot for the real skill feats, but i need more elaboration on this so don't take it too early as counter aguments
- 1,744
- 1,159
i forgot to mention that his "cut through everything" was not something he achieved alone, it's a power given to him or he unlocked it via his special bloodlines. In short, the swordsman novice is haxed, but not very skilled when it comes to swordsmanship. If you remove his "Hax", and let him fight against a skilled swordsman. I think you already know the outcome. The most important thing to remember is, you can remove certain "Haxes", but not "Skills", skills comes from experiences and obstacles one has overcame.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Can sasaki cut everything?
- 13,211
- 8,383
Also why haven’t I seen a single scan from sasaki…
- 1,744
- 1,159
Nah. I just invented a character for an example
- 1,744
- 1,159
In other words, most Haxes doesn't come from "Skills". Most Haxes are fundamentally from protagonist, antagonist, deuteragonist, secondary protagonist, etc etc privileges. Special bloodlines, Technologies, Weapons, and being the reincarnation of a literal God, also specific verse mechanics.
A Girl, who's born with the ability to see the future, doesn't make her skilled, she's born with it. Hence why, Haxes normally doesn't equate to Skills, DC or AP.
A Girl, who's born with the ability to see the future, doesn't make her skilled, she's born with it. Hence why, Haxes normally doesn't equate to Skills, DC or AP.
- 13,211
- 8,383
Zoro also usually starts with speed amp attack with Shi ShiShi SonSon which uses Goken which is damage boost which should one shot which he ain’t dodging even with precog and can also be combined with armament Haki…
also Zoro can utilize range aswell with multiple aoe slashes that can also be supported by goken + haki… Zoro uses them close range, mid range, long range and when fighting melee he comes in and out with air slashes…
also Zoro can utilize range aswell with multiple aoe slashes that can also be supported by goken + haki… Zoro uses them close range, mid range, long range and when fighting melee he comes in and out with air slashes…
Last edited:
- 615
- 314
Tsubame Gaeshi GG’s
- 36,522
- 11,012
It's better if you make a constructive arguments instead "lul Tsubame Gaeshi gg ez"
- 615
- 314
I mean the fact that he has a feat of overwhelmed Artoria in a sword fight speak for itself. IIRC in UC he’s fighting againts Herc and will decapitated Heracles if Herc aim for the kill, and also even though he’s not the Saber Kojiro his skill in sword still should’ve relative to him
- 32,382
- 25,138
- 2,500
- 1,240
Kojiro is able to perceive Musashi using "Zero" which grants infinite speed techniques from what I'm seeing in the profile
However it does state she goes inside a realm devoid of time and it's listed as extrasensory perception so I won't use it as a definitive argument and wait for knowledgeable members to clear it up.
- 13,869
- 7,840
Dodging Causality attacks isn't impressive in terms of precognition, one doesn't need to have complex mechanics in order to do so. That's the entire point of precognition, to predict whatever is coming next.
Saber's precognition doesn't compare to Kenbun Haki in regards to how far into the future it can view. Not to mention she doesn't even have precognition in a literal sense, her's is a lot more like a Danger Sense.
Saber's precognition doesn't compare to Kenbun Haki in regards to how far into the future it can view. Not to mention she doesn't even have precognition in a literal sense, her's is a lot more like a Danger Sense.
Rez
He/Him
- 4,646
- 1,771
Sasaki also fought Archer who has mind's eye
Mind's Eye (True): B
This description is from fate complete material:
Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament.
And this is from fgo:
Powers of observation granted from training and practice.
Can calmly assess one's position and an enemy's powers even in a crisis. He possesses a combat logic that can find the only remaining path. If the chance to win exists even at 1%, he can find that chance and make it a reality.
On the surface it is similar to Intuition.
Mind's Eye (True): B
This description is from fate complete material:
Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament.
And this is from fgo:
Powers of observation granted from training and practice.
Can calmly assess one's position and an enemy's powers even in a crisis. He possesses a combat logic that can find the only remaining path. If the chance to win exists even at 1%, he can find that chance and make it a reality.
On the surface it is similar to Intuition.
- 13,869
- 7,840
Kenbun Haki goes above and beyond that via set in stone Predictions via Future Sight, mind reading and other forms of Prediction based abilities.
- Status
