Rimuru's abilities & speed revision (wn)

[Fixxed]

In Tensura, you cannot exist without information, then the mind, soul, abstractions, everything has information as something fundamental of existence itself(one of the conditions is that the material body is non-existent but Rimuru doesn't even have a material body), from the moment Rimuru ceased to have this information, he would theoretically not exist, this is the logic i am using

You must proof he is in nonexistence state. If we follow your logic then we can give all character that exist before and after all creation a NEP

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Everything is destroyed including information thats why he should have nep

 

[Peak]

If we follow your logic then we can give all character that exist before and after all creation a NEP

not necessarily, a being that exists before creation can still have its fundamental aspect because it does not depend on another existence for that, in the case of Tensura it is that its own aspect depends on a great spirit, this is the difference I'm putting, but if even with all this it's still not qualified then we leave this topic aside

 

[Catpija]

Everything is destroyed including information thats why he should have nep

Rimuru's information isnt destroyed though

 

[Catpija]

Yeah thats what i mean for being nonexistence. As long as you still exist is not NEP.

not really, a NEP character who doesnt have concept still "exist in information", and vice versa. thats why aspect exist, because not every NEP character truly "non-exist" in every aspect. (if) Rimuru lack of information and concept, then he is nonexistence in the scope of information and concept, but still "exist" in plot, history, etc.

 

[Sisyphusx]

And this is not applied, I recommend you read the topic about speed on the wiki, this is already answered

And you're just doing non-sequitur fallacy
Him being infinite in speed because of void isn't even my argument
He is it because rimuru >> great spirit of time (concept of time)
That makes him totally aboge and unbounded by time
Speed = distance/time
In rimuru's case he is not bounded by time so we will just take "no time" as the value for T
That will result in speed = distance, or instant speed
That's infinite speed untill you give me proper reasoning on why it's not, don't do circular reasoning with your points that aren't even related to mine

My point :

Rimuru scales above the concept of time (the great spirit of time)
he also scales above veldanava making him unbounded by space-time

Like If rimuru travel from a distance A to B the time between the distance is ignored because he is literally unbounded and unaffected by time, so the traveling time will result in 0 sec or instant

And you send speed rule of why "moving in void isn't infinite speed"
I never said it is

 

[Sisyphusx]

I disagree with BDE type 2. Not sufficient

I'll rephrase that they said "when the great spirit of time was born the world began to move" in this scale "world" they mean the verse as a whole therefore the very concept of time that governs the entries verse.
naturally veldanava existed without them,and the death of the great spirit of time won't affect rimuru.
This much already qualifies for BDE-1,
Ciel says "master rules over time and space and can transcend it" and we know that rimuru >> great spirits, that would make rimuru >> space-time

type 2: says lacking its features (time and space) as well as being superior in nature

Mind stating your premise on why it doesn't qualify for BDE-2..?

 

[ImmortalDread]

You used same statement that was already qualified for type 1. Not sufficient enough.

 

[Catpija]

He is it because rimuru >> great spirit of time (concept of time)
That makes him totally aboge and unbounded by time
Speed = distance/time
In rimuru's case he is not bounded by time so we will just take "no time" as the value for T
That will result in speed = distance, or instant speed

Being above/unbounded by the concept of time doesn't make your "time" at s=d/t become 0, it become innaplicable. an easier way to understand is to try to measure speed with just known distance.

And you send speed rule of why "moving in void isn't infinite speed"
I never said it is

@Peak didnt said that "moving in void isn't infinite speed", he said that moving in timeless void isn't infinite speed.

 

[Catpija]

nah, I only looked at it from that perspective but I really agree that the OP's logic is not satisfactory, but I believe that if I look at it from the point of view I presented, NEP 1 may be possible

Hmm, the way i see it is that Rimuru is unbounded from Great Spirit of Sky(concept of existence and information) in a way that even if the concept of those is erased, his existence and information would still be okay. He unbounded only from the concept but still have both of the thing.

 

[Tatsumi504]

And you're just doing non-sequitur fallacy
Him being infinite in speed because of void isn't even my argument
He is it because rimuru >> great spirit of time (concept of time)
That makes him totally aboge and unbounded by time
Speed = distance/time
In rimuru's case he is not bounded by time so we will just take "no time" as the value for T
That will result in speed = distance, or instant speed
That's infinite speed untill you give me proper reasoning on why it's not, don't do circular reasoning with your points that aren't even related to mine

Being unbound from time doesn't give him infinite speed.
Lemme use this analogy; You have rimuru then you have DC comics flash both at their best. Tell both of them to physically run feom one end of an infinite universe to the other. Who'll get there first?
Note: no teleportation, time manipulation, dimensional travel, portal creation is allowed just to physically travel the distance. As a handicap, flash doesn't have immeasurable speed either.

 

[Catpija]

Lemme use this analogy; You have rimuru then you have DC comics flash both at their best. Tell both of them to physically run feom one end of an infinite universe to the other. Who'll get there first?
Note: no teleportation, time manipulation, dimensional travel, portal creation is allowed just to physically travel the distance. As a handicap, flash doesn't have immeasurable speed either.

What kind of analogy is this

 

[Sisyphusx]

You used same statement that was already qualified for type 1. Not sufficient enough.

Uh? He lacks space-time feature and is above them. Just tell me why it's not sufficient enough

 

[Sisyphusx]

Being unbound from time doesn't give him infinite speed.
Lemme use this analogy; You have rimuru then you have DC comics flash both at their best. Tell both of them to physically run feom one end of an infinite universe to the other. Who'll get there first?
Note: no teleportation, time manipulation, dimensional travel, portal creation is allowed just to physically travel the distance. As a handicap, flash doesn't have immeasurable speed either.

Welp I don't know shit about flash so i'll leave that question aside

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

INTRO

So in this thread i'll try to give rimuru (wn) some abilities and upgrades


First we need to know about the great spirits and veldanava to scale rimuru


THE GREAT SPIRITS AND VELDANAVA

It have been shown that the world and all of its functions exist because of the great spirits or you can say that they are the fundamental concepts of the verse and the great spirits themselves are fragments of veldanava's imagination inserted within reality


veldanava created the world using turn null

the world was still without form, which brought about the existence of the great spirit of light and darkness which are dualities of the tensura verse then the great spirits of light and darkness birthed the spirit of time which is the only reason the world was even able to move thus other existences started to sprout.

Veldanava is qualitatively above all the great spirits as they are created by him and are only fragments of his imagination.

(Note : it's very obvious but i'll still mention that Veldanava created space-time and not just time as you could think it was only time because there's only mention of great spirit of time but there was literal nothingness before veldanava created the verse or space-time continuums)


as shown veldanava existed before the concept of everythingness, in a void of nothingness. He existed before it and is unbounded to the concept of time-space as it was created by him and they're only a fragment of his imagination.

Creation doesn't give you all these abilities but i am neutral

RIMURU, BEYOND DIMENSIONAL EXISTENCE TYPE 2

"Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions"


"Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1"


As we know that Veldanava lacked spatiotemporal features naturally as he existed before the concept of time and is superior to them in nature


Rimuru surpasses veldanava who superiorly existed as an entity without the great spirits, Rimuru who transcends/scale to veldanava should get beyond dimensional existence type 2 as by nature veldanava is a greater existence than the great spirits

Neutral

NON EXISTENT PHYSIOLOGY TYPE 1

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'."


"Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul."


The great spirits are beings which form the very aspect of reality and the verse of tensura

They are type 1 concepts and are the conceptual fundamentals of the verse and it's existence [all explained above]

The world without the great spirits arrive to complete nothingness as it would be end of all concepts that forms the reality of the verse and Rimuru existed without these very fundamental concepts of existence so he should get NEP type 1


(Note : The verse also contains fundamental abstract concepts. Laws and information)

Isn't he already has NEP type 1

INFINITE SPEED


When Rimuru was sent to the end of space-time, the world was there but it was pure nothingness...without the great spirits thus he can survive without the concept of time.


Rimuru can exist without the great spirit of time and is totally unbounded by time-space as him being relative or above than veldanava


This should also give rimuru infinite speed, as infinite speed is to go across Any distance without regard to time or without being bounded by time, which rimuru qualifies for cause of being capable of existing without all the great spirits and being a qualitatively superior existence than the great spirit of time

Big no for this. Existing in a place without space time doesn't grant you anything

 

[Sisyphusx]

Isn't he already has NEP type 1

No, he only have NPI

Creation doesn't give you all these abilities but i am neutral

Wym?

Big no for this. Existing in a place without space time doesn't grant you anything

The OP for infinite speed isn't well explained i'll edit it

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Wym?

Creation feat doesn't scale anywhere. I mean doesn't give you any resistance or immunity. DT made a new rule recently

 

[Sisyphusx]

Creation feat doesn't scale anywhere. I mean doesn't give you any resistance or immunity. DT made a new rule recently

Not in this case, cause Veldanava possesses the abilities he creates through akashic records and he created the whole ability system and also all the great spirits

And if you mean that he isn't independent on space time
So he is, cause he existed before the very concept of space-time

 

[Sisyphusx]

Big no for this. Existing in a place without space time doesn't grant you anything

I edited the infinite speed part
Can you tell me what's your opinion on that?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I edited the infinite speed part
Can you tell me what's your opinion on that?

No that doens't qualify for infinite speed. You need feats for character travelling infinite distance physically to get that

 

[Sisyphusx]

No that doens't qualify for infinite speed.

Why?

You need feats for character travelling infinite distance physically to get that

We already have info on how it all works (rimuru > concept of time & independent on time), feats are important but we should also consider the info given & how it qualifies.
Possibly infinite speed?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Uh? He lacks space-time feature and is above them. Just tell me why it's not sufficient enough

Not enough for BDE type 2. You need to be independent of space and dimension relations. In Rimuru case, he basically only lacks it, hence he got type 1 if I am not mistaken.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why?

That's how tiering system works

We already have info on how it all works (rimuru > concept of time & independent on time), feats are important but we should also consider the info given & how it qualifies.
Possibly infinite speed?

Like I said

• You need feats for travelling infinite distance or
• You need feats for reacting to those characters who can travel infinite distance or things who has infinite speed.

Physically

 

[Sisyphusx]

Not enough for BDE type 2. You need to be independent of space and dimension relations. In Rimuru case, he basically only lacks it, hence he got type 1 if I am not mistaken.

You are mistaking
That's why I scaled velda first
Velda existed before the very concept of space-time obviously mean he wasn't dependent on space-time to exist making him independent of space-time (and dimensions) and also lack it, Further he is also above the concept of space-time (BDE-2 velda)

Rimuru have all the abilities of the verse and scales above veldanava
And scaling above velda existentially
Gives rimuru BDE-2 too

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You are mistaking
That's why I scaled velda first
Velda existed before the very concept of space-time obviously mean he wasn't dependent on space-time to exist making him independent of space-time (and dimensions) and also lack it, Further he is also above the concept of space-time (BDE-2 velda)

Rimuru have all the abilities of the verse and scales above veldanava
And scaling above velda existentially
Gives rimuru BDE-2 too

Scaling above someone doesn't give you anything other than AP.

 

[Tatsumi504]

What kind of analogy is this

Its just to ask whether if time is undefined, who among the two would arrive at the goal first, rimuru or flash?

 

[Sisyphusx]

Scaling above someone doesn't give you anything other than AP.

So you mean BDE-1 Rimuru >> BDE-2 velda!?
Well no, he is above velda existentially and have all the abilities of the verse that also includes BDE-2

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So you mean BDE-1 Rimuru >> BDE-2 velda!?
Well no, he is above velda existentially and have all the abilities of the verse that also includes BDE-2

That's not how it works bro. You needs feats not something like scaling above one another. For example if Diablo scales above Shion that doesn't make Diablo 4D. What i mean we don't automatically assume things out of context like this i mean scaling above someone.

 

[Sisyphusx]

That's not how it works bro. You needs feats not something like scaling above one another. For example if Diablo scales above Shion that doesn't make Diablo 4D. What i mean we don't automatically assume things out of context like this i mean scaling above someone.

We aren't assuming anything

Rimuru transcends the great spirit of time aka the concept of time and rules over all of space-time

You think someone transcends time and is still dependent on time!?

Or xx >> time and xx is still dependent on time..?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

We aren't assuming anything

Rimuru transcends the great spirit of time aka the concept of time and rules over all of space-time

You think someone transcends time and is still dependent on time!?

Or xx >> time and xx is still dependent on time..?

Transcend time can mean many things. Need feats & better explanation

 

[ImmortalDread]

You are mistaking
That's why I scaled velda first
Velda existed before the very concept of space-time obviously mean he wasn't dependent on space-time to exist making him independent of space-time (and dimensions) and also lack it, Further he is also above the concept of space-time (BDE-2 velda)

Rimuru have all the abilities of the verse and scales above veldanava
And scaling above velda existentially
Gives rimuru BDE-2 too

Having all abilities ≠ having all natures
And this is known in Rimuru verse.

I only see they both are BDE type 1 as far.
Pretty sure it said only lacking, nowhere it said he is independent of space and spatial dimensions.

 

[ImmortalDread]

We aren't assuming anything

Rimuru transcends the great spirit of time aka the concept of time and rules over all of space-time

You think someone transcends time and is still dependent on time!?

Or xx >> time and xx is still dependent on time..?

No buddy. Same argument is brought last year or two. Ask @Peak . This won't be qualified. And pretty sure WN did not change anything

 

[Sisyphusx]

Transcend time can mean many things. Need feats & better explanation

That's not gonna cut it
Rimuru >> the great spirit of time (concept of time)
How tf is he still dependent on time?

 

[ImmortalDread]

That's not gonna cut it
Rimuru >> the great spirit of time (concept of time)
How tf is he still dependent on time?

Has nothing to do with speed.

 

[Sisyphusx]

Having all abilities ≠ having all natures
And this is known in Rimuru verse.

I only see they both are BDE type 1 as far.
Pretty sure it said only lacking, nowhere it said he is independent of space and spatial dimensions.

So you mean velda existing before the concept of space time mean he is dependent on time?
Logic

 

[Sisyphusx]

Has nothing to do with speed.

It don't, i'm just proving that he isn't dependent on time

 

[ImmortalDread]

It don't, i'm just proving that he isn't dependent on time

But using the argument to get immeasurable speed. Therefore it's not valid and not related to immeasurable speed

 

[ImmortalDread]

So you mean velda existing before the concept of space time mean he is dependent on time?
Logic

BDE type 1 is only lacking, type 2 lacking and independent and also superior. It should be stated he is independent from spatial dimensions and space. Again, not Sufficient

 

[ImmortalDread]

You literally got same statement of BDE type 1 and try it to apply for type 2

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Count me as disagree with everything in the OP