Rimuru's abilities & speed revision (wn)

[Sisyphusx]

INTRO

So in this thread i'll try to give rimuru (wn) some abilities and upgrades


First we need to know about the great spirits and veldanava to scale rimuru


THE GREAT SPIRITS AND VELDANAVA

It have been shown that the world and all of its functions exist because of the great spirits or you can say that they are the fundamental concepts of the verse and the great spirits themselves are fragments of veldanava's imagination inserted within reality


veldanava created the world using turn null

the world was still without form, which brought about the existence of the great spirit of light and darkness which are dualities of the tensura verse then the great spirits of light and darkness birthed the spirit of time which is the only reason the world was even able to move thus other existences started to sprout.

Veldanava is qualitatively above all the great spirits as they are created by him and are only fragments of his imagination.

(Note : it's very obvious but i'll still mention that Veldanava created space-time and not just time as you could think it was only time because there's only mention of great spirit of time but there was literal nothingness before veldanava created the verse or space-time continuums)


as shown veldanava existed before the concept of everythingness, in a void of nothingness. He existed before it and is unbounded to the concept of time-space as it was created by him and they're only a fragment of his imagination.


RIMURU, BEYOND DIMENSIONAL EXISTENCE TYPE 2

"Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and its dimensions"


"Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1"


As we know that Veldanava lacked spatiotemporal features naturally as he existed before the concept of time and is superior to them in nature


Rimuru surpasses veldanava who superiorly existed as an entity without the great spirits, Rimuru who transcends/scale to veldanava should get beyond dimensional existence type 2 as by nature veldanava is a greater existence than the great spirits


NON EXISTENT PHYSIOLOGY TYPE 1

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'."


"Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul."


The great spirits are beings which form the very aspect of reality and the verse of tensura

They are type 1 concepts and are the conceptual fundamentals of the verse and it's existence [all explained above]

The world without the great spirits arrive to complete nothingness as it would be end of all concepts that forms the reality of the verse and Rimuru existed without these very fundamental concepts of existence so he should get NEP type 1


(Note : The verse also contains fundamental abstract concepts. Laws and information)


INFINITE SPEED


When Rimuru was sent to the end of space-time, the world was there but it was pure nothingness without the great spirits thus he can survive without the concept of time

EDIT :

The above paragraph doesn't mean that he have infinite speed but it mean that he is independent on concept of space-time


So that makes rimuru independent on and unbounded by space-time.
He is also above the concept of space time as him being above the great spirits

So now we have
Rimuru is NOT dependent on space-time
He is above the concept of space-time

This should give rimuru infinite speed, as infinite speed is to go across Any distance without regard to time or without being bounded by time simply in no time

Speed = distance/time
rimuru is above the concept of time itself and so he will not need any time to travel a distance as he is also independent on time
So we gret the value of time as "none" or 0
So, speed = distance/0
covering a distance in 0 or no time
qualifies for infinite speed
So, rimuru qualifies for infinite speed as we already got the time value as 0 or none

CONCLUSION

So because of all the points mentioned above Rimuru should get these upgrades on his profile :

1 - BDE-2 beyond dimensional existence type 1
2 - Resistance to space-time based abilities
3 - higher dimensional manipulation
4 - NEP type 1 (Aspect - 2, 4)
5 - Infinite speed


Agree : @Dread (with NEP1 & BDE1) @Tempestdragon6 (with NEP1) @LoganKroos (with NEP1, BDE1 & NO.2) @EldemadeDityjon (with NEP1) @Catpija (with NEP1) @simply (with NEP1 & BDE1)

Disagree : @Thunderian
@Fixxed @Tatsumi504 @Catpija


Neutral : @Peak @Tempestdragon6 (except NEP1) @LoganKroos (with HDM) @EldemadeDityjon (with BDE) @Catpija (with BDE)

 

[Peak]

INFINITE SPEED


When Rimuru was sent to the end of space-time, the world was there but it was pure nothingness...without the great spirits thus he can survive without the concept of time.


Rimuru can exist without the great spirit of time and is totally unbounded by time-space as him being relative or above than veldanava


This should also give rimuru infinite speed, as infinite speed is to go across Any distance without regard to time or without being bounded by time, which rimuru qualifies for cause of being capable of existing without all the great spirits and being a qualitatively superior existence than the great spirit of time

Existing in a timeless space does not grant any kind of speed

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

neutral in relation to the rest

 

[Sisyphusx]

Existing in a timeless space does not grant any kind of speed

Ohk but shouldn't being above the great spirit of time grant him infinite speed?

 

[Peak]

Ohk but shouldn't being above the great spirit of time grant him infinite speed?

No, in that context it just means that they unbound from time

 

[Sisyphusx]

No, in that context it just means that they unbound from time

Then why no?
Great spirit of time was just a fragment of velda's imagination which he inserted in reality which can also be R > F, that is the scale difference between them
Rimuru scaling to or above veldanava puts him in the same superiority level
And the great spirit of time is a type 1 concept
I don't see why it can not be infinite speed

 

[Peak]

Great spirit of time was just a fragment of velda's imagination which he inserted in reality which can also be R > F, that is the scale difference between them

no it's not, this is type 1 conceptual manipulation, he doesn't see the cosmology he created as fiction, same for the great spirits

And the great spirit of time is a type 1 concept
I don't see why it can not be infinite speed

What would great spirit being a type 1 concept help with here?

 

[Sisyphusx]

What would great spirit being a type 1 concept help with here?

That is rimuru is existentially above great spirit of time itself (or concept of time)
he is not bounded by time + time don't affects him
Infinite speed is traveling a finite distance in 0 seconds simply in no time without being bounded by it
He clearly qualifies for infinite speed

 

[Peak]

That is rimuru is existentially above great spirit of time itself (or concept of time)
he is not bounded by time + time don't affects him
Infinite speed is traveling a finite distance in 0 seconds simply in no time without being bounded by it
He clearly qualifies for infinite speed

Like I said, existing in a place with no concept of time or space doesn't really grant you anything, you can expect others to respond if you're not satisfied

 

[Sisyphusx]

Like I said, existing in a place with no concept of time or space doesn't really grant you anything, you can expect others to respond if you're not satisfied

That's not even my point

I'll start again
Veldanava existed before the concept of time, mean he is independent on time and space
Rimuru scales above the concept of time (the great spirit of time)
he also scales above veldanava making him unbounded by space-time

Like If rimuru travel from a distance A to B the time between the distance is ignored because he is literally unbounded and unaffected by time, so the traveling time will result in 0 sec or instant
That's clearly infinite speed

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with BDE type 2. Not sufficient. Nah, an infinite-speed one is also not sufficient. We no longer do this.
But NEP 1 seems fine for me.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Nep 1 is fine and the rest I'm neutral

 

[Peak]

That's not even my point

I'll start again
Veldanava existed before the concept of time, mean he is independent on time and space
Rimuru scales above the concept of time (the great spirit of time)
he also scales above veldanava making him unbounded by space-time

Like If rimuru travel from a distance A to B the time between the distance is ignored because he is literally unbounded and unaffected by time, so the traveling time will result in 0 sec or instant
That's clearly infinite speed

And this is not applied, I recommend you read the topic about speed on the wiki, this is already answered

Timeless Voids
Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Dissagree FRA.

Nep 1 is fine and the rest I'm neutral

But NEP 1 seems fine for me.

why?

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Because of turn null his body become the turn null itself

 

[LoganKroos]

2 and 4 have great evidence and a solid foundation so it can be added, 1 has good evidence so for now I agree, 3 is neutral and 5 is obviously out of the question

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dissagree FRA.


why?

He exists without fundamental abstracts of existence.

 

[Peak]

He exists without fundamental abstracts of existence.

Yes, I could actually add to What Veldanava existed even before creating the great spirits, that is, Veldanava existed without its fundamental aspect (type 2 information that was only created when the sky spirit was born, Rimuru is equal or superior to Veldanava and was also able to exist without the great spirit (he had been erased)

And I don't think it qualifies as resistance because Veldanava didn't resist anything, he simply existed, the same goes for Rimuru

 

[Tatsumi504]

For now, count me as disagree with everything.

1. Simply not enough evidence for BDE (speaking from experience)
2. You can't eat your cake and have it. Why add resistance to space-time manipulation when he's already getting BDE? Makes no sense
3. Cannot for the life of me figure out where Higher Dimensional manipulation is coming from. We don't grant those who can create entire space-times this ability
4. Don't see where NEP is coming from here. He's basically surviving in a void and Resistance to Void manipulation exists.
5. Infinite speed is a definite no go. Being unbound by time just gives resistance to time based abilities. It does nothing for speed. Simple as that.

Might change my mind on 1 & 4 depending on arguments provided.

Edit: if BDE is rejected then 2 is probably Okay to add

 

[Tatsumi504]

He exists without fundamental abstracts of existence.

He's not lacking any aspects, he's just existing despite what sustains existence not being there which will just be resistance to void manipulation

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Yes, I could actually add to What Veldanava existed even before creating the great spirits, that is, Veldanava existed without its fundamental aspect (type 2 information that was only created when the sky spirit was born, Rimuru is equal or superior to Veldanava and was also able to exist without the great spirit (he had been erased)

As I recall, rimuru was not erased, but sent by yuuki to the future, which when rimuru was in the future, everything in the tensura had been destroyed by yuuki.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yes, I could actually add to What Veldanava existed even before creating the great spirits, that is, Veldanava existed without its fundamental aspect (type 2 information that was only created when the sky spirit was born, Rimuru is equal or superior to Veldanava and was also able to exist without the great spirit (he had been erased)

And I don't think it qualifies as resistance because Veldanava didn't resist anything, he simply existed, the same goes for Rimuru

Veldanava has proof, rimuru doesn't. Simply transcending him isn't enough to gain that

 

[Peak]

Veldanava has proof, rimuru doesn't. Simply transcending him isn't enough to gain that

well this worked with TD 1, Rimuru has all the haxs and resistances of the series and has the same feat as Veldanava in existing without the sky spirit, so i think this can be added

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Veldanava has proof, rimuru doesn't. Simply transcending him isn't enough to gain that

Yes, especially since the word "transcended" has many meanings

 

[Peak]

As I recall, rimuru was not erased, but sent by yuuki to the future, which when rimuru was in the future, everything in the tensura had been destroyed by yuuki.

Yuuki couldn't do that, he died before, what happened was that the spirit of destruction erased everything (including the spirits) and then erased itself, leaving the complete void.

 

[Peak]

Yes, especially since the word "transcended" has many meanings

I didn't use the word "transcended" anyway

 

[Tatsumi504]

well this worked with TD 1, Rimuru has all the haxs and resistances of the series and has the same feat as Veldanava in existing without the sky spirit, so i think this can be added

I honestly had problems with that as well but if simply transcending him is enough then i guess it's okay

 

[Fixxed]

No comment for BDE 2

NEP 1 is no, you must become nonexistence being for get NEP, existed without concept is not NEP in fact he still exist

Thats not infinite speed

 

[Catpija]

NON EXISTENT PHYSIOLOGY TYPE 1

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'."


"Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul."


The great spirits are beings which form the very aspect of reality and the verse of tensura

They are type 1 concepts and are the conceptual fundamentals of the verse and it's existence [all explained above]

The world without the great spirits arrive to complete nothingness as it would be end of all concepts that forms the reality of the verse and Rimuru existed without these very fundamental concepts of existence so he should get NEP type 1

Thats just Rimuru being unaffected by the destruction of multiverse and the erasure of every great spirit, i.e resistance.

INFINITE SPEED


When Rimuru was sent to the end of space-time, the world was there but it was pure nothingness...without the great spirits thus he can survive without the concept of time.


Rimuru can exist without the great spirit of time and is totally unbounded by time-space as him being relative or above than veldanava


This should also give rimuru infinite speed, as infinite speed is to go across Any distance without regard to time or without being bounded by time, which rimuru qualifies for cause of being capable of existing without all the great spirits and being a qualitatively superior existence than the great spirit of time

Thats not how the wiki standard works.

 

[donegbe]

the great spirits themselves are fragments of veldanava's imagination inserted within reality

Which chapter is it mentioned??

 

[Catpija]

Oh yeah, and why does there're a few scan that looks like fake scan?

 

[Peak]

NEP 1 is no, you must become nonexistence being for get NEP, existed without concept is not NEP in fact he still exist

there are several types of NEP, what the OP proposes is this

Information Nonexistence: These characters whose information are nonexistent. These refers strictly to the type of information that shape reality (Type 2). They are hence immune to regular Information Manipulation (Type 2).

 

[Peak]

I honestly had problems with that as well but if simply transcending him is enough then i guess it's okay

I think considering how the narrative treats Rimuru and Veldanava, that would be fine, but I understand who sees problems with that

Thats just Rimuru being unaffected by the destruction of multiverse and the erasure of every great spirit, i.e resistance.

But what about Veldanava that existed even before the sky spirit existed? There was no way he could resist something that didn't even exist, of course, Veldanava doesn't even have a profile, but the point is I was hoping this would put Rimuru on the same level for being equaled to Veldanava

 

[Catpija]

the great spirits themselves are fragments of veldanava's imagination inserted within reality

veldanava created the world using turn null

The verse also contains fundamental abstract concepts.

What are the chapters of these scans?

 

[Catpija]

I think considering how the narrative treats Rimuru and Veldanava, that would be fine, but I understand who sees problems with that

But what about Veldanava that existed even before the sky spirit existed? There was no way he could resist something that didn't even exist, of course, Veldanava doesn't even have a profile, but the point is I was hoping this would put Rimuru on the same level for being equaled to Veldanava

hmm, i see

So the OP was trying to upgrade NEP by Rimuru "unbound" from every Great Spirit, thus "lacking" all of them?

 

[Peak]

hmm, i see

So the OP was trying to upgrade NEP by Rimuru "unbound" from every Great Spirit, thus "lacking" all of them?

nah, I only looked at it from that perspective but I really agree that the OP's logic is not satisfactory, but I believe that if I look at it from the point of view I presented, NEP 1 may be possible

 

[Fixxed]

there are several types of NEP, what the OP proposes is this

And you must become nonexistence for get NEP, simply exist without.... is not NEP

 

[Catpija]

And you must become nonexistence for get NEP, simply exist without.... is not NEP

you can actually as long as you don't have physical aspect and another metaphysic/fundamental aspect, since if you don't have X aspect, technically your X aspect is nonexistence

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence

nah, I only looked at it from that perspective but I really agree that the OP's logic is not satisfactory, but I believe that if I look at it from the point of view I presented, NEP 1 may be possible

Feels a bit wrong, if Rimuru really "lacked" information, then he shouldnt have soul/mind, yet he still can think. at best it would be nature type 3.

 

[Peak]

And you must become nonexistence for get NEP, simply exist without.... is not NEP

In Tensura, you cannot exist without information, then the mind, soul, abstractions, everything has information as something fundamental of existence itself(one of the conditions is that the material body is non-existent but Rimuru doesn't even have a material body), from the moment Rimuru ceased to have this information, he would theoretically not exist, this is the logic i am using

 

[Fixxed]

you can actually as long as you don't have physical aspect and another metaphysic/fundamental aspect, since if you don't have X aspect, technically your X aspect is nonexistence

Yeah thats what i mean for being nonexistence. As long as you still exist is not NEP. And for rimuru's case, he just exist without.... not nonexist without....

 

[Peak]

Feels a bit wrong, if Rimuru really "lacked" information, then he shouldnt have soul/mind, yet he still can think. at best it would be nature type 3.

then Rimuru would receive NEP 1 and 3

Reading the description, actually NEP 3 seems to qualify better than NEP 2 so I would be fine with that too, I'll wait for some moderator/administrator to opine on this