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Rikudo Madara Keys & Tier Fixing

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Like I have said in other threads Madara though scales to Hags. Look the Viz scan.
HbNvsc.jpg
It says that Pre Shinjuu Madara is getting close to him (not trying but he is getting close) and he even tries to attain Kaguya's power. That means that Madara scales to Hagoromo since we have a statement from the Sage himself. Notice that Hagoromo states that Madara tries to attain Kaguya's power. In a way he did since he obtained the Rinne Sharingan and that makes him the being closest to Kaguya.

So Rikudo madara should have the following keys:

  • Rikudo Madara (Pre Shinjuu)
  • Rikudo Madara (Post Shinjuu)
  • Rikudo Madara (Double Rinnegan)
  • Rikudo Madara (RinneSharingan)
Madara was downgraded to low 5B in this thread because it was said that his rating was coming by scaling to Naruto and Sasuke. That's WRONG. Madara scales to Hagoromo by the above statement and not to Naruto and Sasuke. Madara's At least 5C key here is coming by scaling to Hags which is also wrong since by scaling to him he is much more than that.

Conclusion about Madara and Hags

Either have Madara at 5B at least at his last forms (Double Rinnegan version & Rinnesharingan version) or downgrade Hagoromo too since Madara clearly scales from him. And since he scales they shouldn't have a massive tier gap. Also the Databook mentions that after getting the second Rinnegan, Madara awakens the true power of Rikudo.

Madara and Kaguya

Many here forget that Madara and Kaguya scale to each other since Kaguya was revived by using Madara body + IT chakra. Naruto stated in the manga that the IT chakra Madara absorbed [1] is more than the Juubi which would make Kaguya x2 and the very best 3 times stronger than Madara. So Madara scales to her. Wouldn't that make at least Rinne Sharingan Madara 5B too?
 
That 5-B feat was performed by Hagormo pre Juubi Jin.

So I guess Juubi jin Madara is almost equal to Hagoromo as stated by himself and after attaining double rinnegan and rinnegsharingan he becomes stronger than Hags.
 
also why do we think that That 5-B feat was performed by Hagormo and hamura when manga clearly said it was done Hagormo on his deathbed

sure Hagormo and hamura seal the jubi in hagoromo but they didn't create the moon that time hogoromo creat it many years later

by accepting that 5-B feat was performed by Hagormo and hamura same as saying that Hagormo was never a jin
 
@Dzhind

Hagoromo who stated that is not JJ.

@Omimi

Hagoromo and Hamura created the moon like how Naruto and Sasuke did it.

>Naruto and Sasuke able to overpower him and Madara who normally enjoy fighting against strong opponents literally run away from them after absorbing Juubi and acquiring the second Rinnegan and try to distract them to initiate IT instead of fighting them.
 
@Mindovin

That is what I meant.When Hagoromo and Hamura sealed Kaguya,Hagormo was in base,not a Juubi Jin.Just like his dead form.He stated that Madara was approaching his power (One eyed Madara without Shinjuu tree) and even Kaguya's,I suppose it means that Juubi Jin Madara with dual rinnegan is equal to Hagoromo and Rinnesharingan Madara is above him.

One eyed Madara is no match for Naruto and Sasuke.Double rinnegan is,but we will never know.
 
@Dzhind

Naruto's clones fight against Madara's Limbo's on even ground until they returned to Madara -most likely- (I forgot they have limited time).
 
Madara is physically equal to Naruto,not stronger,but completely equal.That's why he was able to fight the clones.Sasuke is also equal to Madara when it comes down to ocular powers.
 
Considering Naruto fought Kaguya (you know the feats) I don't think so or Kishi gave them some more power which is common in the Shonen.
 
I got the perfect scan for this lol
643DB195-F0CE-4C82-A8E3-A61CDEB9364B

This is made in regards to Madara with dual rinnegan plus runner sharingan who still scales to Naruto and Sasuke becuase it doesn't boost AP physically as well as the fact we look at the two keys the same because all Madara has to do was remove his forehead protector because he had the eye the whole time

Dual rinnegan/3 eye Madara surpassed Hag
 
Hagoromo's statement about Madara approaching his powers was only given once and it's never extrapolated upon further in the series. There's literally no way to scale Madara to Hagoromo when it's never stated if Madara reached Hagoromo's level. However, we can tell Madara never reached Hagoromo's level since Kaguya was superior to Madara and Hagoromo's innate power that he lent to Naruto and Sasuke was enough to seal Kaguya himself. Reminder, in the past it required Hagoromo and Hamura together to defeat that iteration of Kaguya. In the present it only required the power of Hagoromo's Chakra that he lent to Naruto and Sasuke to defeat her. This version of Kaguya was weaker than himself, and we actually know and have proof this Kaguya was weaker:

Past Kaguya:

  • Fought two 5-B characters (Hagoromo and Hamura)
  • Required the power of two 5-B characters to be sealed.
  • Had the full Chakra of the 9 Bijuu.
  • Had the entire Shinju tree in her.
  • Had the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra already taken in as she casted long before fighting Hagoromo and Hamura.
Present Kaguya:

  • Fought two Low 5-B characters (Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke).
  • Required the power of one 5-B character to be sealed (Hagoromo alone had the power to seal her as he gave Naruto and Sasuke his power to do so, this is blatant proof she's already much weaker).
  • Did not have the full Chakra of the 9 Bijuu (Was missing parts of Bijuu 1-8 and 50% of Bijuu 9).
  • Did not have the entire Shinju tree in her (Naruto cut the Shinju tree and Madara had only taken in the upper part of the Shinju that had come off from Naruto's cut, the base and all the roots were not taken in by Madara and in turn Kaguya).
  • Did not have the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra in her until the very end (even after she takes in the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra, she never interacts with Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke as she becomes sealed by them immediately after she gets the amp).
So Rikudo madara should have the following keys:

  • Rikudo Madara (Pre Shinjuu)
  • Rikudo Madara (Post Shinjuu)
  • Rikudo Madara (Double Rinnegan)
  • Rikudo Madara (RinneSharingan)
Madara Pre Shinju, Post Shinju and Double Rinnegan doesn't receive an AP nor Durability power-up.

He's physically just the same and his Jutsu AP doesn't change.

Post Shinju Madara's Limbo clones were able to block strikes from Six Paths Naruto and hurt him while knocking him back with strikes.

However, Madara's Limbo clones after retrieving the second Rinnegan were still just on par with Naruto's clones.

So, there is no difference in stats for Post Shinjuu Madara and Double Rinnegan.

Now onto Rinne-Sharingan, that's pretty simple because it's not a power-up. Rinne-Sharingan simply allows the ability to cast the Infinite Tsukiyomi. Stats aren't changing.


Madara is the same from Pre-Shinju to Rinne-Sharingan.

Many here forget that Madara and Kaguya scale to each other since Kaguya was revived by using Madara body + IT chakra. Naruto stated in the manga that the IT chakra Madara absorbed [1] is more than the Juubi which would make Kaguya x2 and the very best 3 times stronger than Madara. So Madara scales to her. Wouldn't that make at least Rinne Sharingan Madara 5B too?
Madara doesn't scale to Kaguya, Sasuke literally confirmed that Kaguya was greater than Madara. There is no relation nor specific number like "would make Kaguya x2 and the ver best 3 times stronger than Madara", those are literally arbitrary numbers and aren't fact.

There is no way Madara can scale to Kaguya, it's confirmed he's below her and we don't have a way to back-scale since there are no numbers given to us.

There is no way Madara can scale to Hagoromo since it's not ever stated if Madara reaches Hagoromo's level, plus the fact that Madara was weaker than Kaguya who was defeated using Hagoromo's sole power, thus Hagoromo > Kaguya and we already know Kaguya > Madara.
 
Madara is above Hag. I literally showed the scan where Naruto remembered where Hag said that Madara was obtaining a power closer to Kaguya then Hags own power

The Madara referred to was dual rinnegan and 3rd eye. He may not be stronger than Kaguya but he definitely stronger most likely and st the lowest comparable to Hag.

52C863DB-9310-4E65-89B7-EA1E8320AAC0
Had to post it again it seems
 
Hold up The first thing Kaguya did when she was brought back was absorb IT chakra and it's literally stated
A092C8FA-8893-46A0-A8DA-A0F4981656F1

...so yeah actually we have been power scaling Kaguya wrong. She was using IT chakra the whole time when she first came back and it's literally stated and can't be ignored
 
AstralKing7 said:
Madara is above Hag. I literally showed the scan where Naruto remembered where Hag said that Madara was obtaining a power closer to Kaguya then Hags own power
The Madara referred to was dual rinnegan and 3rd eye. He may not be stronger than Kaguya but he definitely stronger most likely and st the lowest comparable to Hag.
Click to expand...
Madara isn't above Hagoromo, you literally have not provided a single statement that says "Madara is above Hagoromo" or "Madara reached Hagoromo's level".

Once again, the current Kaguya was weaker than Hagoromo since it was Hagoromo's own power that defeated her and Kaguya is above Madara.

Hold up The first thing Kaguya did when she was brought back was absorb IT chakra and it's literally stated ...so yeah actually we have been power scaling Kaguya wrong. She was using IT chakra the whole time when she first came back and it's literally stated and can't be ignored
She absorbed only a bit of IT chakra, she absorbs all of it when she regenerates herself and creates the ETSB.
 
Lmao Imade we know hag made the statement about Kaguya referring to his mother in the past. Are u really saying Hag lied???? Naruto literally only remembered that statement about Madara before he died. His power had surpassed Hags itself. You can't be blind to the fact that is in front of us

Also sealing isn't AP bruh lmao. Stop using that as scaling
 
@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

One eyed Madara without shinju was stated to approch Hagoromo's powers.

Dual Rinngan Madara is >Hagoromo.
 
Dzhindzholia said:
@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017
One eyed Madara without shinju was stated to approch Hagoromo's powers.

Dual Rinngan Madara is >Hagoromo.
Click to expand...
Even

Post Shinju Madara is stronger

He was able to tank both naruto and sasuke attack without even flinch not to mention that he was off guard

So

If hagoromo is 100%

Pre Shinju Madara would be like 75% to 80%

Naruto And Sasuke 50% for each

And Since Shinju Madara tankned the both attack (100%)

that mean he's above 100% which mean he's above hagoromo

Dual Rinnegan is higher than that

And Rinne Sharingan is even higher
 
Since Madara's calc had been accepted

there's a list of things that should be changed in madara profile

  • Before Starting
There's the accepted Destructive Cap.

Hagoromo = 200 zt

Naruto = 100 zt

Sasuke = 100 zt

RinneSharingan Madara = 500+ zt

1) Make another key for madara (Juubi Jin + Shinju) and change some renders of madara keys

Madara (Juubi Jin) render :


4534489-4


Madara (Juubi Jin + Shinju) render :

D94vywk-09cf770f-17e7-46f9-844a-c10033796f16


Madara Destructive Cap.

I would low-ball Madara to make it safely rating

Madara (Juubi Jin) > 140 zt (70% of Hagoromo)

Madara (Juubi Jin) Weakend > 84 zt (60% from his full power ) (make sense , since he get damaged by 100 zt naruto's lava rasenshuriken)

Madara (Juubi Jin + Shinju) > 200+ zt (tanked both of naruto and sasuke attacks "jinton rasengan + SP chidori" which equal to 200 zt without any effort amd he was off guard)

Madara (Dual Rinnegan) > maybe 300 zt or more (I dont know For Now so its discussable , but he's vastly stronger than before , pushed naruto and sasuke back with one limbo strike and so on )

Madara (Rinne-Sharingan) > 500+ zt (naruto and sasuke dont scale to him , only kaguya since she's stronger than him)

3) Madara Attack Potency : I would to start from Juubi Jin key + I would add the Shinju key

At least Planet level (Was stated to get close to Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power) | Planet level (Faced off against Naruto and Sasuke with Six Paths chakra,Tanked Naruto and Sasuke combined attack without any effort also he was caught off guard , His Limbo send Naruto flying a way with one strike , Also his limbo tanked Naruto's truth seeking orb attack with his bare hand ) | Planet level (Superior to Naruto and Sasuke , Send them togather flying a way with one limbo strike ) | Planet level (Must be comparable to Kaguya Ōtsutsuki , Also spread the God Tree's roots as a side effect of his Infinite Tsukuyomi)
 
well atleast RinneSharingan Madara >hagoromo

u cant deny manga

and sry but wont comment on any opinion over hard mangafact
 
Omimi said:
well atleast RinneSharingan Madara >hagoromo
u cant deny manga

and sry but wont comment on any opinion over hard mangafact
Click to expand...
Yup

But I think even One Eyed Shinju Madara is stronger than him
 
hagoromo said 1 eye madara without Shinju is close his lvl(its enough to call him equal/enough to putt him on 5-B)

so with Shinju he should be atleast = sage lvl if not stronger
 
Since I already majorly addressed the Madara and Hagoromo stuff before, im obviously in full agreement with the scaling.

Madara absolutely scales to Hagoromo. "Approaching his level" still secures the fact that Madara was strong enough to be in the same realm of power as Hagoromo and thats at the very least. Whether he actually reached Hagoromo or not has nothing to do with the tiering itself.
 
Omimi said:
hagoromo said 1 eye madara without Shinju is close his lvl(its enough to call him equal/enough to putt him on 5-B)
so with Shinju he should be atleast = sage lvl if not stronger
Click to expand...
I agree with that

And with Dual Rinnegan he should be higher

And with Rinnesharingan he would be even higher

One eyed (pre shinju madara) is 140

Hagoromo is 200 zt

Post shinju Madara is 200 zt too if not higher

RS madara is 500 zt (and naruto and sasuke don't scale to him)
 
Dzhindzholia said:
He is stronger than Hagoromo but not astronomically.
Naruto and Sasuke could keep up with him even after power ups.
Click to expand...
They Keep up with Only Post-Shinju Form

They Don't fought Both Dual Rinnegan and Rinnesharingan Madara
 
They Keep up with Only Post-Shinju Form

They Don't fought Both Dual Rinnegan and Rinnesharingan Madara

Naruto's clones fought against Rinnesharingan Madara's Limbos to a draw at worst
 
Stronger but not astronomically.

But anyway,god tiers should scale from Madara.His recently calced feat is extremely casual.
 
There's no reason for Madara to have many keys. His 'body power' does not get stronger, just his ocular power which is obvious. Are people seriously saying Madara's punches and say, Lightning Dispatch got stronger because he put another Rinnegan into his eye socket? Only jutsu through ocular means like Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei would be stronger. Like, you know Kaguya is still stronger than Madara despite having the Byakugan and Rinne-Sharingan while Madara has the Rinnegan - a stronger dojutsu than the Byakugan - and Rinne-Sharingan, right? Don't get hung up on these things and just go with feats / showings.

And I don't wanna sound rude, but I think we should stop pushing this headcanon that RS Madara is >>>>> Naruto, when there's nothing telling us this and the young man has decent feats against someone above Madara. I've been said this before, the showings we've gotten suggest that there's no major difference between the god tiers in strength. Even if Madara is stronger, the difference is clearly not as big as some people like to say.

As for prime Hagoromo, I'd personally put him as roughly equivalent to Madara at his strongest. He has the complete Juubi while Madara's missing portions but has part of the Shinju - even though I don't see anything that suggests it gives such a boost in power - and the ocular power advantage with the Rinne-Sharingan.

I don't see any problems with the current keys. Cyclops Madara, Dual Rinnegan Madara, and Rinne-Sharingan Madara. Just my opinion.
 
Might Path said:
RS madara is 500 zt (and naruto and sasuke don't scale to him)
Click to expand...
they scale or atleast with Biju PS and ashura avatar

sasuke with IT amp biju chakra+50% hagoromo chakra +his own/indra chakra should be stronger then jj mada with jubi chakra+his own/indra chakra

naruto with boil release aslo scale cuz he can over even kaguya

if not than atleast kaguya and momo should scale above 500zt
 
I agree with BFF.

Madara didn't gain any physical strength via rinnesharingan.And additional eyes only boosted his Ocular Powers.

I think it goes by this: Dual Rinnegan/Rinnesharingan Madara = Dual Rinnegan Madara > One eyed Madara > One Eyed Without Shinju.

The difference between forms is not big.Madara was approaching Hagoromo's powers when he had no Shinju inside him,and by approaching he meant being really closed,because then he mentioned that Madara was heading for Kaguya's powers.
 
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