Revising the Kaguya ETSO note for Accuracy and Updating.

[Samlex1234]

Note- This is not an argument for Kaguya to scale to ETSB but to change the reason behind her not scaling. Do not derail.

Can we remove this note as it is outdated and inconsistent?



“The attempts to make Kaguya scale to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (ETSB) were rejected many times before. The primary reason is that this attack required an amount of chakra far greater than her own chakra, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each possess only half of Hagoromo's chakra.”



Reason for Removal: follow the argument below.



Based on the note, Kaguya does not scale to her ETSB for the following reasons:



1. Chakra inconsistency : The ETSB required a significantly higher amount of chakra than Kaguya possessed naturally.



2. Performance Inconsistency: Scaling her ordinary stats to match the ETSB is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each have only half of Hagoromo’s chakra.



Counter argument



1. The chakra Kaguya received from the Infinite Tsukuyomi exponentially increased her stats, as confirmed by vs Battle Wiki check the speed category for Kaguya. “Mother just gained more power; her individual stats both her might and speed are exponentially greater now.”






2. Kaguya with Shinobi chakra is substantially more powerful than Naruto and Sasuke. They required the help of Kakashi, who was enhanced with obito’s chakra and Kamui Hax. The need for Kakashi's assistance, primarily due to his abilities, indicates that Naruto and Sasuke could not match Kaguya in direct combat.



This is a better note



Revised Note: Read below



Kaguya does not scale to her ETSO for the reasons below:




This is a better note



Revised Note: Read below



Kaguya does not scale to her ETSO for the reasons below:

Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy System (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.




Agree- ghostimuscrime, darkdragonmedeus, The slayer, Damage and Lordgriffin.
Disagree -
Neutral -

 

[Deceived3596]

@UchihaSlayer96

 

[Nierre]

@UchihaSlayer96

 

[Samlex1234]

This is my thread, but I’m attributing the information for the new note to him because it is his intellectual property.

 

[KaydeeX]

@UchihaSlayer96

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I hate you guys

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Agreed, it's pretty blatant that the IT chakra was meant FOR Kaguya


Makes no sense for someone wanting to take back chakra to use a huge sum on an attack

 

[Nami_Kami]

Although it could be a seperate CRT, I think the TSO as of now is quite low-balled. We are literally working under an assumption that Kaguya would do nothing but spend 15 years building up the power just so that she can wipe out a dimension and then recreate it. Makes 0 sense.

 

[Samlex1234]

Although it could be a seperate CRT, I think the TSO as of now is quite low-balled. We are literally working under an assumption that Kaguya would do nothing but spend 15 years building up the power just so that she can wipe out a dimension and then recreate it. Makes 0 sense.

In order not to derail this thread, you can open another CRT when you have adequate evidence to upscale.

 

[KingTempest]

@UchihaSlayer96

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

 

[Samlex1234]

@UchihaSlayer96

Guys please not to be mean, but if you don't agree you can just say so and give reasons. I don't want this to turn to constant spam.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Bro why is everyone tagging you?

 

[Stryker861]

Goat
Also @UchihaSlayer96

 

[Samlex1234]

Goat
Also @UchihaSlayer96

Stop spamming!!

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Alright guys, we've had our fun. Let's stop derailing this thread now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP makes sense from a glance.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Was "Naruto and Sasuke only have half of Hagoromos chakra" an actual reasoning on the wiki? That's kinda doodoo

 

[Samlex1234]

Was "Naruto and Sasuke only have half of Hagoromos chakra" an actual reasoning on the wiki? That's kinda doodoo

Do you agree with the change?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Okay, so a couple of things to point out are as follows.

1) Yeah, I agree that the current note on Kaguya's profile is a bit outdated and probably needs to be redone.
2) The stuff I wrote to you on my wall were just meant to help you understand the situation with the UES stuff. It's not really written with the level of quality needed to be placed as a note on a major profile. And it certainly doesn't cover all of the reasons preventing Kaguya from scaling to the ETSB physically.

 

[Samlex1234]

Okay, so a couple of things to point out are as follows.

1) Yeah, I agree that the current note on Kaguya's profile is a bit outdated and probably needs to be redone.
2) The stuff I wrote to you on my wall were just meant to help you understand the situation with the UES stuff. It's not really written with the level of quality needed to be placed as a note on a major profile. And it certainly doesn't cover all of the reasons preventing Kaguya from scaling to the ETSB physically.

I'm putting it here for you so you don't have to go through it above. For the write up I used to your ideas however I changed up a few things.
Read below what would you like me to adjust and add?

For special attacks or techniques powered by an energy system (such as chakra) to scale with a character's physical strength or durability, the energy system must meet Universal Energy System (UES) standards. However, Chakra does not meet these standards, so Ninjutsu does not automatically scale with physical stats.
To scale Ninjutsu to physical stats, there must be direct feats or statements indicating a connection. For example, if Naruto withstands Kaguya ETSB and Kaguya can then harm Naruto with a physical punch, this would suggest that Kaguya physical strength scales with her ETSB at the very least.
In the case of Kaguya and her ETSB, no feats or statements indicate that her physical strength or durability scales to the ETSB. Therefore, there is no basis to assume that Kaguya's physical abilities are on the same level as her ETSB. Courtesy “Uchihaslayer96”

 

[Testarossa002]

i don't think we even need a note
all that's needed is to say that kaguya only scales to xyz because of ETSO
which the ap justification already covers

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

i don't think we even need a note
all that's needed is to say that kaguya only scales to xyz because of ETSO
which the ap justification already covers

The purpose of the note is to prevent people from making "Kaguya should scale to the ETSB physically" type threads, which used to happen a lot. I think there was even a Discussion Rule about it, but I'm not sure if it's still there or not.

 

[Samlex1234]

i don't think we even need a note
all that's needed is to say that kaguya only scales to xyz because of ETSO
which the ap justification already covers

The note is needed cause one:
1. Kaguya doesn't scale to the ETSB
2. people would try to Scale Momoshiki and Kinshiki above her ETSB.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'm putting it here for you so you don't have to go through it above. For the write up I used to your ideas however I changed up a few things.
Read below what would you like me to adjust and add?

For special attacks or techniques powered by an energy system (such as chakra) to scale with a character's physical strength or durability, the energy system must meet Universal Energy System (UES) standards. However, Chakra does not meet these standards, so Ninjutsu does not automatically scale with physical stats.
To scale Ninjutsu to physical stats, there must be direct feats or statements indicating a connection. For example, if Naruto withstands Kaguya ETSB and Kaguya can then harm Naruto with a physical punch, this would suggest that Kaguya physical strength scales with her ETSB at the very least.
In the case of Kaguya and her ETSB, no feats or statements indicate that her physical strength or durability scales to the ETSB. Therefore, there is no basis to assume that Kaguya's physical abilities are on the same level as her ETSB. Courtesy “Uchihaslayer96”

Imo it's a bit lengthy, you could shorten this out and redirect UES explanations to it's main page, I'd suggest something like this

Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy System (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

(Inserting past rejected CRTs might help since discussion rules for various verses tend to show those too)

 

[Testarossa002]

The purpose of the note is to prevent people from making "Kaguya should scale to the ETSB physically" type threads, which used to happen a lot. I think there was even a Discussion Rule about it, but I'm not sure if it's still there or not.

I mean, that was before the ues removal. A discussion rule would be more appropriate. But then again, it's ultimately useless as any threads trying to scale her physically to ues gets shut down immediately due to no ues

Kaguya doesn't scale to the ETSB

She  does scale to the etsb. That's why it's on her page. She however, only scales that high with etsb. Same way deidara is only 6-B with C0 or Edo Madara with Tengai Shinsei

people would try to Scale Momoshiki and Kinshiki above her ETSB.

The arguments against superior otsutsuki scaling above etso is more of how they can beat her without being above the etso. That has nothing to do with the whole no ues thing in the OP. Same way Nagato can be superior to Deidara without necessarily being above C0.
Besides, this is no longer a kaguya problem. It'll be something more useful as a general discussion rule for the verse

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean, that was before the ues removal. A discussion rule would be more appropriate. But then again, it's ultimately useless as any threads trying to scale her physically to ues gets shut down immediately due to no ues

Uh, I mean, sure. Tbh I don't care that much either way. But I just know that this is one of those topics that always gets the occasional thread every odd month or so, and sometimes with even more frequency. So it'd just be nice for staff members to have it written down somewhere that this topic has been discussed exhaustively in the past and is just not worth bothering with anymore.
Another reason to have it written down would be to simply let new and less experienced members understand why things are the way they are, since not all other power-scaling communities view things the same way we do.

 

[Samlex1234]

Imo it's a bit lengthy, you could shorten this out and redirect UES explanations to it's main page, I'd suggest something like this

Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy Scaling (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

(Inserting past rejected CRTs might help since discussion rules for various verses tend to show those too)

I think this is better. Do you mind if we use this?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think this is better. Do you mind if we use this?

Feel free

I'm agreeing with what Testarossa002 said, this issue is more related with the verse rather than Kaguya herself but it would help prevent the excess number of CRTs made for this topic so let's roll with it.

 

[Samlex1234]

Okay, so a couple of things to point out are as follows.

1) Yeah, I agree that the current note on Kaguya's profile is a bit outdated and probably needs to be redone.
2) The stuff I wrote to you on my wall were just meant to help you understand the situation with the UES stuff. It's not really written with the level of quality needed to be placed as a note on a major profile. And it certainly doesn't cover all of the reasons preventing Kaguya from scaling to the ETSB physically.

I would love to also know the other reason so I can add it. If you don’t have any off the top now we can just use the one Testa wrote, it is better than the misinformation currently on the profile

Feel free

I'm agreeing with what Testarossa002 said, this issue is more related with the verse rather than Kaguya herself but it would help prevent the excess number of CRTs made for this topic so let's roll with it.

@UchihaSlayer96

 

[Samlex1234]

Bump

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bump

Have you asked another mod to take a look at it?

 

[Samlex1234]

Have you asked another mod to take a look at it?

Yep several.

 

[Samlex1234]

@LordTracer @Damage3245 @CloverDragon03 @Shadowbokunohero

 

[DavidTPPM]

@LordTracer @Damage3245 @CloverDragon03 @Shadowbokunohero

You can't tag people, only staff can. Well you can tag them but it does absolutely nothing unless you're a staff member

 

[Samlex1234]

You can't tag people, only staff can. Well you can tag them but it does absolutely nothing unless you're a staff member

Oh interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Samlex1234]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Imo it's a bit lengthy, you could shorten this out and redirect UES explanations to it's main page, I'd suggest something like this

Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy Scaling (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

(Inserting past rejected CRTs might help since discussion rules for various verses tend to show those too)

This update to the note looks fine to me. Maybe ask other knowledgeable Naruto mods like Shadow, LordTracer, or Damage to give their thoughts too.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Imo it's a bit lengthy, you could shorten this out and redirect UES explanations to it's main page, I'd suggest something like this

Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy System (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

(Inserting past rejected CRTs might help since discussion rules for various verses tend to show those too)

This is fine with me.

 

[Samlex1234]

This is fine with me.

This is beautyyyyyy. Thanks G