Restoring the Riordanverse to its Glory

[Mazdoesstuff]

So, as many of you who were on the Riordanverse thread may know, the High 4-C feats for the Greek Gods creating constellations were deemed as invalid for various reasons. After taking further inspections at the reasoning, I will debunk the logic used in the thread and bring back High 4-C for the Greek pantheon.

“The stars only exist in the Greek Pantheon and aren’t real”

This argument is simply stupid, to be blunt. Not only was this logic never backed up in the series, but it simply doesn’t make sense. Apollo’s Sun Chariot not being the actual sun and merely manifestations doesn’t mean the logic would apply to Artemis creating stars. We actively see Artemis generate constellations, and the constellations aren’t myths or subjects of human ideation like the Sun Chariot; they are grounded in reality.

This is simply an example of Occam’s Razor; the logic being used to debunk High 4-C requires more assumptions than the feats itself. Using the sun chariot as an example to fortify the logic doesn’t make sense because the situations are vastly different, and it requires more baseless assumptions “tHe sTaRs aRE nOt rEaL” with no true backing rather than assuming the stars are real.

“The gods creating constellations could be some level of reality manipulation or matter manipulation”

Not only this is a flimsy and moronic headcanon, EVEN if we were to treat it as a facet of the gods’ powers and not their strength, it’s inconsistent with how we scale magic on VS Battles Wiki. With our standards on VS Battles Wiki, characters who use magic can use the same amount of energy to create a star and put that energy into a laser beam or an actual attack. The only situation this wouldn’t apply would be if individual spells were the ones capable of creating such feats, which isn’t consistent with how magic works in the Greek Pantheon.

“Typhon, one of the most powerful characters in the entire Riordanverse, was said to be responsible for the craters on the moon, it would be preposterous to say that one of the verse’s god tiers best feat is hundreds of times weaker than Artemis”

We have zero proof that Typhon was going all out, or that the moon craters were the peak of his power. Also, this just literally isn’t how scaling works.

If Typhon’s highest PERFORMED feat is High 6-A, and Artemis has High 4-C feats, he would just scale to Artemis. Just because a character has a weaker feat but that character scales above someone with a stronger feat doesn’t make the stronger feat invalid.


In short, the debunk is nothing short of buffoonery and I have no idea how it even passed, so yeah here

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Once I solve the AP scaling I’m tackling speed next

 

[Cryo123]

This argument is simply stupid, to be blunt. Not only was this logic never backed up in the series, but it simply doesn’t make sense. Apollo’s Sun Chariot not being the actual sun and merely manifestations doesn’t mean the logic would apply to Artemis creating stars. We actively see Artemis generate constellations, and the constellations aren’t myths or subjects of human ideation like the Sun Chariot; they are grounded in reality.

Actually it is. Multiple times. In the main series books and in other Percy Jackson media. You're just ignoring the entire CRT that debunked these points.

“The gods creating constellations could be some level of reality manipulation or matter manipulation”

Not only this is a flimsy and moronic headcanon, EVEN if we were to treat it as a facet of the gods’ powers and not their strength, it’s inconsistent with how we scale magic on VS Battles Wiki. With our standards on VS Battles Wiki, characters who use magic can use the same amount of energy to create a star and put that energy into a laser beam or an actual attack. The only situation this wouldn’t apply would be if individual spells were the ones capable of creating such feats, which isn’t consistent with how magic works in the Greek Pantheon.

They literally turn a small amount of dust into "stars" in the sky. They objectively have matter manipulation via magic.

“Typhon, one of the most powerful characters in the entire Riordanverse, was said to be responsible for the craters on the moon, it would be preposterous to say that one of the verse’s god tiers best feat is hundreds of times weaker than Artemis”

Was never an argument. The argument was that being trapped under a mountain is a pretty big anti feat for a supposedly High 4C character.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

They literally turn a small amount of dust into "stars" in the sky. They objectively have matter manipulation via magic.

Still irrelevant to my point tho, you don’t understand how VS Wiki treats magic. It wasn’t a unique spell that did it, it was the gods’ magical power. Thus, it scales to their stats

Actually it is. Multiple times. In the main series books and in other Percy Jackson media. You're just ignoring the entire CRT that debunked these points.

Reread what I said on “human ideation”. The constellations are a completely different thing. Apollo outright states that his chariot is a concept based on human imagination, but the stars have no such treatment

Was never an argument. The argument was that being trapped under a mountain is a pretty big anti feat for a supposedly High 4C character.

It would be an anti feat even for High 6-B by your logic I don’t see what is the point of drawing the boundary at High 4-C

 

[Vietthai96]

Still irrelevant to my point tho, you don’t understand how VS Wiki treats magic. It wasn’t a unique spell that did it, it was the gods’ magical power. Thus, it scales to their stats

Sorry, but you need to prove their stats scale to their magical power. At best they get High 4-C via hax, however nothing in the series iirc indicated they generate actual star

It would be an anti feat even for High 6-B by your logic I don’t see what is the point of drawing the boundary at High 4-C

This is not a proper way to counter, yes different people have different mindset and interpretation when it come to power scaling, however to counter you need to actually prove while your mindset and interpretation, logic is more accurate

Anyway i myself personally still against High 4-C rating because iirc i said it before in downgrade thread that the entire H4C rating and scaling was entirely revolving around a single star feat from Artemis, while there is more feat that either against the rating or not supporting it being legit. And even if we consider Artemis feat legit, we don't know if said feat scale to their every rating

 

[InfiniteSped]

The Artemis feat, I'm pretty sure she just makes some stars brighter to create the constellation, instead of creating them from nothing. There are other feats of gods creating constellations, but it's probably safe to assume it's the same deal.

I don't think there's any real justification for tier 4, people even had to resort to the supernova statements earlier, which is even less convincing. Anything related to celestial bodies in the verse is sus since the sun is both a car and a boat, and the moon is a chariot. Unless they say explicitly that the gods are affecting the actual physical stars several light years away, I see no reason to assume they aren't some other smaller representation for stars like the sun car.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Disagree FRA

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Sorry, but you need to prove their stats scale to their magical power. At best they get High 4-C via hax, however nothing in the series iirc indicated they generate actual star

If we agree that the gods’ magic are High 4-C, Oceanus tanked an energy blast from Poseidon. And then, in an actual skirmish in hand-to-hand combat, they could fight relatively on par with each other

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Anything related to celestial bodies in the verse is sus since the sun is both a car and a boat, and the moon is a chariot. Unless they say explicitly that the gods are affecting the actual physical stars several light years away, I see no reason to assume they aren't some other smaller representation for stars like the sun car.

I think using the argument for the constellation isn’t equivalent, as there is no previous context to apply the argument. Like with how Ra’s boat and Apollo’s chariot are stated to be byproducts of human ideation, but stars are just something different in the way that Artemis created them

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that it seems like a good idea to have two competing revision threads about the same verse running at the same time.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I think using the argument for the constellation isn’t equivalent, as there is no previous context to apply the argument. Like with how Ra’s boat and Apollo’s chariot are stated to be byproducts of human ideation, but stars are just something different in the way that Artemis created them

When both the sun and the moon are just chariots being driven around, then the burden of proof for any other celestial body is really on whoever is arguing they're the real things, it's not like the Greeks didn't have their own beliefs for the stars that should be canon in the universe for the Greek side of things (since pretty much all myths and science are true at the same time).

 

[Testarossa002]

So yeah
Let me give my 2 bits on this

I believe the quote below is where the Tier 4 arguements are coming from
Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished.
For a moment, I didn’t see anything different. Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before – a gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl’s figure – a girl with a bow, running across the sky.
‘Let the world honour you, my huntress,’ Artemis said. ‘Live forever in the stars

I do believe they are real stars and I also believe the quotes below reinforce my assertion
Twelve enormous thrones made a U round a central hearth, just like the placement of the cabins at camp. The ceiling above glittered with constellations – even the newest one, Zoë the Huntress, making her way across the heavens with her bow drawn.
This was the description of the throne room in Olympus

The next time I awoke it was night, but I wasn’t sure if it was the same night or many nights later. I was in the bed in the cave, but I rose and wrapped a robe around myself and padded outside. The stars were brilliant – thousands of them, like you only see way out in the country. I could make out all the constellations Annabeth had taught me: Capricorn, Pegasus, Sagittarius. And there, near the southern horizon, was a new constellation: the Huntress, a tribute to a friend of ours who had died last winter.
Here Percy notes the other constellations which exist in real life along with the constellation we saw Artemis create
However in Kane Chronicles, we see that both the science and metaphysical can coexist
1 does not have to be false
Carter himself was skeptic about it because it seemed unreal but that can be attributed to him being new in the metaphysical business
“Ra,” Bast said. “For eons, Ra’s glorious sun boat would travel this route each night, fighting off the forces of Apophis.” She looked round nervously as if remembering old ambushes. “It was dangerous: every night, a fight for existence. But as he passed, Ra would bring sunlight and warmth to the Duat, and these lost spirits would rejoice, remembering the world of the living.”
“But that’s a legend,” Carter said. “The earth revolves around the sun. The sun never actually descends under the earth.”
“Have you learned nothing of Egypt?” Bast asked. “Conflicting stories can be equally true. The sun is a ball of fire in space, yes. But its image you see as it crosses the sky, the life-giving warmth and light it brings to the earth—that was embodied by Ra. The sun was his throne, his source of power, his very spirit. But now Ra has retreated into the heavens. He sleeps, and the sun is just the sun. Ra’s boat no longer travels on its cycle through the Duat. He no longer lights the dark, and the dead feel his absence most keenly.”
“Indeed,” Bloodstained Blade said, though he didn’t sound very upset about it. “Legend says the world will end when Ra gets too tired to continue living in his weakened state. Apophis will swallow the sun. Darkness will reign. Chaos will overcome Ma’at, and the Serpent will reign forever.”
Part of me thought this was absurd. The planets would not simply stop spinning. The sun would not cease to rise.
On the other hand, here I was riding a boat through the Land of the Dead with a demon and a god.
If Apophis was real too, I didn’t fancy meeting him.

Also reiterated here
Amos and Carter looked at Bast, which made sense, as she was the only Egyptian god present.
She frowned at her uneaten Fancy Feast. “Ra is the god of the sun. In olden times, he aged as the day aged, then sailed through the Duat on his boat each night and was reborn with the sunrise each morning.”
“But the sun isn’t reborn,” I put in. “It’s just the rotation of the earth—” “Sadie,” Bast warned.
Right, right. Myth and science were both true—simply different versions of the same reality, blah, blah. I’d heard that lecture a hundred times, and I didn’t want to hear it again

So yeah
One can propose a Likely rating
Rather than a full scaling
As a middleground

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that it seems like a good idea to have two competing revision threads about the same verse running at the same time.

So about this...

Should we lock this thread and continue to discuss in our preexisting Riordanverse content revision thread instead?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

So about this...

Should we lock this thread and continue to discuss in our preexisting Riordanverse content revision thread instead?

Sure

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

It seems best if we continue discussing here instead:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dropping-the-riordanverse-tier-by-smiting-it-with-zeus-lightning-bolt.131446/