Request to Discuss Use of Certain Japanese Terms

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes, this might sound ridiculous to an American audience, where such terms are often thrown around as offhand jokes and hardly ever taken seriously. However it was brought to my attention by User Sera Loveheart and User Tsubaki Blue that these terms have implicit sexual undertones that might not make them appropriate for this wiki.

These words are Shouta, and Loli respectively.

No, I'm not saying we should ban them outright. However it's been brought to my attention that they have a darker subtext behind them, and they should be strongly discouraged, especially if said discomfort is being voiced by a site member.

NOTE: STAFF ONLY

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

If it is seen as offensive for other cultures, it should not be said.

 

[TheFourthEmpire]

But I love my kawaii gothic lolitas you can't ban me for what I love.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Margaret_Moonlight

Also I see why loli might be a problem since they are associated with Lolita the novel by Vladimir Kasporov but I see no reason why Shota should be banned because the term comes from Shotaro Ishinomori's Shotaro Boy, the main characters of his manga always being some type of precocious youth who is wise beyond his years which is from Shounen Demographic manga and not you know "hentai" or "ecchi."

 

[Kaltias]

If it is seen as offensive for other cultures, it should not be said.

^

 

[Sera_EX]

Totally agree. I can break down why if it's necessary.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not talking about banning anyone, this isn't an ex post facto rule.

Also, I should specify this is staff only.

 

[Wokistan]

Isn't Lolita a term that means just about the same thing that's not affiliated with Japanese? As with literally anything else, if someone tells you that something makes them uncomfortable (within reason), you should just stop doing it.

 

[Kaltias]

Fourth, that's staff only.

I don't want to see comments that aren't useful to the discussion

 

[Sera_EX]

Loltia =/= Loli

Lolita refers to a Victorian fashion style popular here in Japan, associated with cuteness (it has nothing to do with little girls in particular).

Loli means "attractive little girl" and has a sex appeal-oriented connotation.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Fourth, cut it out. That's a warning.

 

[Wokistan]

Iirc there was a book about a pedophilic relationship under the title of Lolita, but that's not really relevant anymore. Either way, someone asks you to stop, just stop doing it. Doesn't really cost you anything. What to do if a series references the terms (Made in Abyss translation comes to mind), less sure.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think at worst individual members can try asking people not to say it whenever they themselves made the thread or its on their wall, but otheriwse, pretty sure it should just stay the same as it's always been.

Unless we implement a rule (which I'm against), I don't think this thread really has any purpose though?

 

[Sera_EX]

That's the novel, yes.

I should also note that Kavpeny explicitly forbade usage of these terms back in the day. He didn't want any categories for loli or shouta or blogs with those words in the title.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Unless we implement a rule (which I'm against), I don't think this thread really has any purpose though?

It could be a term that we heavily discourage.

Which, this thread is trying to establish, if we should discourage the use of these words or not.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not sure I understand, how would we discourage those words? And even then, this seems like a realllllly minor thing that doesn't really need a thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't really see how we can actively "discourage" a term without putting in place actual rules though.

I know it's a term we shouldn't use on "official" stuff like profiles or some blogs, but beyond that?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was requested to make a thread on this, to which I did. It's an important issue to certain users, clearly.

We would warn people using them excessively to stop, the same way we discourage excessive profanity.

 

[Sera_EX]

I hate imposing on free speech as much as anyone, but regardless of how weebs may view it, loli basically means you are labeling that childlike character as sexually attractive. This does not look good considering the extreme progressive influence on Fandom, sorry SD it's just a hunch...

 

[SomebodyData]

This seems like an issue that's being a bit inflated. And, no offense to FANDOM, I don't think they really know/care about the history of these terms, even with such progressivism.

We discourage them because it could set off a FANDOM ban, to keep things pg-ish, or brings up potential issues in threads, but these words would usually be used in a joking or personal discussion, so none of the above really apply here. And ultimately, excessive profanity can in fact lead to a ban, so....

 

[PaChi2]

Offensive words should not be allowed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

but these words would usually be used in a joking or personal discussion

To be entirely fair, while I'm no expert of the cultural implications of the words, they might have a much more explicit meaning behind them that would be an issue for Japanese users or users from other parts of the world. Even certain western users, tbh.

I hope I'm not inflating this, as I'm only asking for a dicsussion on the topic. I feel that's warrented if several users came to me requesting this.

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't really have a problem with imposing limitations on these terms, but what do we do if someone does actually say it/type it?

For instance, the term "loli" gets thrown around a lot on Nasuverse threads due to the prevalence of characters that are or resemble young girls. But the term is never used in a sexual manner and is almost always in the same context as "waifu" or "husbando".

 

[Sera_EX]

To be fair, this isn't like weeb. I made an exception after that fiasco and asked our Japanese users, as the result of being the smallest minority, to just ignore it. They don't like that word.

This however...is more a thing of comfort for younger users rather than simply disliking a word. This is more a thing for chat than the wiki in general, as that's where it is used more often.

 

[Sera_EX]

Like I said I'm not judging anyone, but were it not for me asking guys on the smallest bust thread to not include underaged girls, they probably would've kept using lolis in that list.

 

[SomebodyData]

I could see the issue in the main wiki, even if I disagree with the degree, but chat? That's like, all personal / joking discussions at that point.

And how young are these users? I find it hard to believe teenagers would be offended, and anything younger wouldn't even be technically allowed on the wiki.

 

[Sera_EX]

Middle schoolers, around 12-14. Some could be younger.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also, I know chat is all jokes, and I also understand the line between fiction and reality, surely there's a line? Maybe we just ignore it, unless it's used in a very specific context?

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, isn't that basically how it is now?

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't know, considering the aforementioned thread.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean middle schoolers said worse things than loli and shota when I was in middle school. Ofc they can ask someone to stop, but still.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, that's why I made this thread. So we can discuss what we do with stuff like this.

 

[Sera_EX]

I mean...Japanese school kids are a lot more polite and well behaved than elsewhere. Most of the time, anyway.

 

[SomebodyData]

The thread was getting weird yeah, but even in the thread itself they were commenting on that fact not to mention it was the first rule, it seems they were aware enough to keep from crossing any line.

 

[Sera_EX]

Was it? The rule was "don't post any nude pics", and I came there and asked for there to be the 13+ rule. Unless I'm forgetting something. Anyway it doesn't matter. I'm fine with just ignoring it but, I can't speak for others.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have repeatedly told our members to not post sexualised drawings of small children, and deleted the images when I have noticed them.

We could add a rule for this if the rest of the staff agrees. It would certainly help us avoid more Fandom bans.

In addition, I could add the two offensive Japanese terms in question to the automatic abuse filter if you wish, but I would have to be very careful while doing so. Yesterday I accidentally typed "||" instead of "|", and as a result nobody in the wiki could write anything for 15 minutes.

Also, the filter would not be perfect even if I program it right. Sometimes it would likely catch unrelated words, and stop confused members from posting.

 

[SomebodyData]

Like I said above, I feel like this is a bit of an exagerration no offense, and seriously doubt FANDOM even knows the history behind the words.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Somebody does have a point, I didn't intend to outright ban the words with this post, rather I would like them to be strongly discouraged and to establish that we can give warnings/reports for excessive useage of it or continued usage after a user requests another to stop.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that we could simply add a rule for it.

What do you think about a rule against sexualised drawings of young children?

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, that probably goes without saying, unless you mean slightly nsfw, or bordering nsfw or handholding. Basically anything that could be considered pushing it?