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Ren Amamiya vs Archie Sonic

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^~^I can recognize when I'm being too stubborn. I don't believe Joker's Fate Resistance is stronger than Sonic's FateHax but everything else pans out.

Joker FRA.
 
My vote was previously for Sonic so I think a point should be taken from Sonic.
 
When Joker removes all of your stat amps, it doesn't come back unless you buff yourself again. Which he can simply just remove again. He does get more SP overtime and Satanael straight up really removes this. Satanael being just like the spirit bomb is false. We see Joker summon Satanael, after that, all of the little orbs that came from people cheering him on healed everyone. So Joker was able to summon him before their cheers even got to them all. There's also no reason to assume why he can't just keep Satanael and he should be similar to an Ultimate Persona. Also, I don't think votes based off Power Rings are allowed, since they're statistic amplifications, which Joker can simply remove with Dekaja as that's one of his abilities.
 
Not sure on what Sonic's vote is based off. Fate hax doesn't stop him from being incapped so not sure how that will help him. Power Ring amps are useless due to Dekaja. Atom/matter manipulation won't work. What will Sonic do? Simply attacking Joker will only benefit him as certain Persona's are resistance, can reflect, or absorb (which heals) physical attacks. So Sonic literally has no way to actually hurt Joker. It's only a matter of time before Joker just incaps him.
 
Dunno why people are still FRA'ing Sonic when he has no wincon. Fatehax stalemates at best.

Power Ring amps get nulled by Dekaja. Joker has a massive AP advantage to the point he can one-shot with practically any of his moves. None of Sonic's own attacks can get past Persona resistances. Fatehax doesn't protect from incapacitation and Joker can inflict Sleep and Despair with a thought.

Joker FRA.
 
By the way, is that massive AP advantage comes from just Sinful Shell and not Joker's regular attacks, right?
 
Sinful Shell is even more massive, but if Sonic being about baseline is correct, then even his regular attacks will one-shot with ease.
 
Hm. That doesn't tell me much. Examples? Like, beings that Joker's regular attack have hurt.
 
In terms of just AP...

End-Game Joker is superior to a serious Holy Grail, who stomps the Velvet Room Attendants, who each are superior to Caroline and Justine combined, who stomp Pre-End-Game Joker, who can notably damage a casual Holy Grail, who effortlessly performed a baseline Low 2-C feat.
 
End Game Joker's regular attacks hurt Yaldabaoth (holy grail), who is Low 2-C?

Alright, I have no more questions.
 
Here's my thoughts on the fight so far.

>Both of them have wincons

>Joker can't kill Sonic as Joker can't get past or resists Sonic's degree of fatehax.Fate will intervene essentially meaning Joker can't kill Sonic.However he can incap likely with sleephax.

>Sonic isn't strong enough to close the gap however Sonic can use a power ring to null Joker.Considering a single ring could null Ugly Nagus as preformed by Nate Morgan which nulled him down to his base form and sent him to to the Zone of Silence this gives him a definite wincon.

>Both characters are gonna exhaust their move sets trying to incap or kill each other.However I would give the slight chance of winning to Sonic as he's seen first hand the nulling power of the ring and it was used on a being that Sonic and Tails couldn't beat.Sonuc would be very inclined to use said ring considering how Sonic can't kill or harm Joker due to the gap just like shown when Sonic couldn't take down Ugly Nagus.

Joker could incap via sleephax but his sleephax is based on chance and I don't see sleep resistance to other characters in Persona so I would say Sonic wins sheerly due to having the rings to fall back on once he realizes he can't harm Joker.
 
I was gonna switch to Joker FRA but if Sonic's Null with the rings is that strong then I'll stick with Sonic.Nate did do it with one ring afterall.
 
His sleep hax is not based on chance. Seriously, this has been settled a thousand times. It's like DnD, the chance is representative of the target's resistance vs the potency of the hax. Someone with no resistance will get affected.

Joker is smart enough to switch to incap the moment he realises he can't kill Sonic. Hell, there's a chance he'll go for it before then. Sonic isn't a Shadow, and Joker is still mostly a normal teenager at heart. Killing won't be his first choice, especially since he can see that Sonic isn't exactly a monster.

Sonic isn't likely to pull out the Power Ring until he's tried most of his arsenal first. It's OOC for him to use it at all.

Meanwhile, Joker can just decide to switch tactics at any point in time. In the time it takes for Sonic to see that none of his attacks can connect, and those that do, do barely anything, Joker would've been able to kill him several times over. Except he wouldn't, because after the first time, he would already switch to incap methods.
 
At this point, I completely agree with Solacis assessment. If Speed wasn't equal and Sonic retained his Speed superiority, this would be different and Sonic would have the win due Joker unlikely to hit Sonic with anything and Sonic would trounced Joker like Sonic did with Megaman.

But Speed is Equalized. Joker has this.
 
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