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ThePerpetual said:
Yeah, uh, I'm not seeing impressive enough feats out of this much-lauded 'lol fatehax' to say that Sonic will 'always win' a fight in which his opponent is invulnerable to all of his methods of attack, has higher AP, and methods of winning the fight that he doesn't have meaningful resistance to. ...meanwhile, I've yet to see an actually consistent Win Condition for Sonic other than a Fate Hax that, y'know, stuff he resists and that is out of character for Sonic to go for anyways. (And, no, Personas are aspects of himself, saying Satanael is outside help is essentially identical to saying that Jotaro wouldn't be allowed Star Platinum.)

Unless someone demonstrates the contrary more clearly than anything has up to now, I'll chip in a vote for Joker here.
>Fatehax doesn't make Sonic win a fight it just prevents him from dying.He can still be incapped and lose.

>The monment Sonic breaks out the Power Rings he gets a buff of power to his hax that can affect a 2-A being and this feat was performed by a human.

>All I see as Jokers wincon is sleephax.
 
VioletVoid100 said:
Not That many due to his fate. Just that he's really good
Sonic was clueless and helpless in Green Hill Zone and Eggman was safe and powerful in an entire dimension. He was about to win by using the SGW to warp all of reality and make himself into a god. Then somehow, Sonic came in kicking Eggman's butt like usual.
 
...You're saying that he gets amped to 2-A physically... then now you're saying it doesn't?

Be consistent man.
 
I'm just saying, it could have been a unique Power Ring Nate Morgan made in his isolation to fend off enemies.
 
I'm actually pretty close to change my vote from Archie Sonic to Joker. Close. As a Sonic fan, a lose every now and then is fine.
 
Okay, so let me get this straight.

> Sonic's hax, normally, did not function against a 2-A being.

> Sonic then used a Power Ring, which allowed him to punch through its resistance to his hax. This specifically (and quite conveniently, it would seem) affects only his powers, and has no bearing on Sonic's physical capabilities such that it would boost his AP at all.

> Somehow, the fact that this being is physically 2-A is supposed to thus automatically entail that one needs "2-A" hax to work on it.

> Somehow but the next time, we're measuring hax: abilities that expressedly don't function under the rules of Attack Potency: that Sonic has as per... Attack Potency.

None of the above entails necessarily that Sonic's hax punches through Joker's resistance, though? Having higher AP does not automatically mean that you somehow resist Hax better, and unless I'm missing a piece of this puzzle Mammoth Mogul hasn't demonstrated actual hax resistance that resists this hax on a "2-A" scale directly. The argument thus far's instead pointing out at "well he's a Type 4 acausal" (which also doesn't seem proven: yes, I read the sca) as though that automatically included a Resistance to this power, rather than simply not being subjected to it on account of being Acausal to begin with.

Or, in other words, we're using the punching-through the hax resistance of a higher AP character using the Power Rings, to then claim that the hax power of the rings is equivalent to the physical AP of the target whose non-physical resistance to hax is what's being punched through.

Where's the missing piece? Why should this power working on Mammoth Mogul automatically entail that it works on Joker, and why isn't Sonic blown into pieces by a concept-killing Sinful Shell/put to sleep with Dormina/OHKO'd with Mamudoon well before any of it happens to begin with, what with essentially anything a Persona does being speed of the wielder's thoughts? Because it's 'fated to not happen'?
 
Actual question though.

Sonic negates Sinful Shell via fatehax right? How does that work though? Does he just... be unaffected by Sinful Shell because he sure as hell ain't dodging it due to that thing being almost Yaldy-sized.
 
Edwardtruong2006 said:
Actual question though.

Sonic negates Sinful Shell via fatehax right? How does that work though? Does he just... be unaffected by Sinful Shell because he sure as hell ain't dodging it due to that thing being almost Yaldy-sized.
It just somehow misses him every time I would assume.
 
I would like to point out that Joker can just remove anyone that boosts their stats. That's literally one of his moves. So Power Rings are useless. Anyways, Joker FRA.
 
Nate Morgan's unique ring has much probability of being real as Sonic's organic pattern matching Robotnik's by touching Robotnik to be erase from existence by the Ultimate Annihilator but what do I know.

But stat debuffs cost a turn for Joker.
 
@The Perpetual

>Master Mogul is a type 4 acausal which by default gives you resistance to fate manipulation, but was still affected by Sonic's fate hax.

>Ren isn't even acausal.

"Why should fate hax on Ren just because it worked on Mogul?"

Because he hasn't resisted fate hax that works on type 4 acausals.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I would like to point out that Joker can just remove anyone that boosts their stats. That's literally one of his moves. So Power Rings are useless. Anyways, Joker FRA.
Sorry, let me backtrack on that turn thing. Stat debuffs are temporary, right? And they cost SP.
 
How long can Joker last with his SP if he is using it to attack and Debuff Sonic? And the Power Rings don't have the limitations like a SP.
 
Hm. So, Joker would need to end this fight quickly. Sonic has far more Stamina to out last Joker's SP drain via simply using.
 
Are we just kinda ignoring that Satanael removes all of Joker's SP costs?

"All previous abilities to a greater extent, Ren no longer requires SP to cast spells,..."
 
Yeah, but I'm still viewing Satanael as a Spirit Bomb of sorts cause of the way it came about.

Satanael's power came from the Metaverse. The Metaverse is the collection of everyone's minds. That why the Metaverse took the form of a subway station.

Satanael's power activation came from everyone thinking of the same thing and that gave Ren the power to defeat Yaldabaoth. Spirit Bomb like.

"The reverse manipulation of the masses' cognition allows a comeback." Arsene awaken to Satanael through the masses cognition, not traditional fusion like other Personas.
 
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