Removing Goku's Time Stop Resistance

[ByAsura]

You keep saying that Goku just countered in real time, but you can clearly see here:

1. Hit uses Time-Skip and Goku is momentarily frozen
2. Hit charges towards Goku
3. Goku counters Hit's punch during the Time-Skip and strikes back during the Time-Skip
4. Goku states he's "far beyond" the Time-Skip and that Hit's Time-Skip is useless

So what, is Goku also skipping time? Can he brute force his way into Hit's Time-Skip dimension?

And yet, basically every other scene shows them as moving during Hit’s time-skip. This is just a freeze frame until Goku powers up to match him. Saying he’s far beyond the time-skip can mean many, many things, including Hit’s ability is unable to help him fight Goku. The fact that he was so much stronger and faster than Hit at that juncture supports this.

No, Goku is still moving because Hit’s power explicitly doesn’t freeze time and relies a lot on natural speed. Hit skips himself forward and everyone else moves normally, which is why his moves can be intercepted to begin with. Goku didn’t break through a time-skip dimension in the U6, Vados implies it’s a separate power and states that Hit makes it from the time he’s stored while skipping.

 

[sanicspood]

Goku cant have good things cant he

 

[Axxtentacle]

So, pretty much, Goku with raw speed, is keeping up with someone who's skipping forward in time...?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Actually, when King Kai is examining Goku after he begins suffering from Delayed Onset Ki Disorder, he states that Goku was "reading things a few seconds earlier", which bleeds into straight up Precognition territory.

I'm for the removal of the Resistance, but that seconds worth of reading ahead seems like a bit more than Analytical Prediction.

 

[ByAsura]

So, pretty much, Goku with raw speed, is keeping up with someone who's skipping forward in time...?

No. Hit’s power is just too brief.

Anyway, it seems that this is concluded since Null agrees with the removal.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This power description is about as confusing as King Crimson's "Time-Skip"

 

[VinnyXD]

Shouldn't Hit get limited Time Travel from this?

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

This power description is about as confusing as King Crimson's "Time-Skip"

I think the difference between KC and Hit is that KC specfically is erasing moments in time while Hit is skipping a split second forward in time which can be upgraded through adaptation

 

[ByAsura]

Shouldn't Hit get limited Time Travel from this?

I think the GP and Whis describe it as limited time travel. I’ll try find those scans tomorrow.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Actually, when King Kai is examining Goku after he begins suffering from Delayed Onset Ki Disorder, he states that Goku was "reading things a few seconds earlier", which bleeds into straight up Precognition territory.

I'm for the removal of the Resistance, but that seconds worth of reading ahead seems like a bit more than Analytical Prediction.

This is what he actually said.

 

[ByAsura]

I guess it is limited time travel, then. I’ll try to gather the Hit scans tomorrow.

But there’s no resistance involved because Hit’s power works on himself. Same goes for manipulation.

This also substantiates that time-skip isn’t time stop.

 

[Axxtentacle]

So, does Goku get better Precog from this? Precog or Immeasurable are the only ways he'd be able to deal with that ability.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm content with a few seconds worth of Precognition as an upgrade to a split seconds worth of Analytical Prediction as is the standard.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Following this. Also, interesting thing here.

 

[RippleW]

I disagree
here some points
goku moved in hit time leap
and jiren was able to move when hit use his time cage on jiren which suspend a person in time and this would scale to goku
goku was able to destroy hit dimension which stores time

also I don't know if these 2 point below matter

also goku was able to move in a erased time line when he was picking up the second zeno
and goku and vegeta were holding on time machine when it was going to travel through time so there were on the outside of the time machine while holding on it

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm not sure about moving in the erased timeline since this scene had some big PIS moments (Goku and Trunks somehow breathing in that space and the spaceship itself moving in an erased timeline)

Second one is a no since they were holding onto the time machine

 

[Cul0r]

precog sounds like the most logical and likely

 

[RippleW]

I'm not sure about moving in the erased timeline since this scene had some big PIS moments (Goku and Trunks somehow breathing in that space and the spaceship itself moving in an erased timeline)

Second one is a no since they were holding onto the time machine

here the scene skip to 2:25

 

[VinnyXD]

Precognition sounds good

 

[Ionliosite]

So basically, aside from the removal, Hit gets "limited Time Travel" and Goku gets a better Precog (since that's basically the argument being used) for dealing with such thing? Sounds good enough.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with removing the Resistance

 

[Wokistan]

Why is goku getting precognition off of this? That sort of logic sorta gives every melee fighter precog, since prediction is super important for close combat like that. Can't really react to a jab you aren't expecting, for example.

It seems that the argument is that hit's power functions more as a teleportation and that goku is just a lot faster than hit so the advantage it gives isn't that much?

 

[SamanPatou]

Analytical Prediction is an skill-related ability and subset of Precognition accepted on the wiki, and Goku already has it due to him predicting all of Hit's movements during the fight, reason why he is able to counter the time skip in the first place.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The argument is that Hit effectively time travels a bit, giving the affect of a time stop for him to be able to attack people.

Goku would be getting precognition for a statement by King Kai saying he was "reading things a few seconds earlier".

 

[Wokistan]

As it's being described by you, that just applies to anyone competent in melee combat. This doesn't seem like a very useful way to be applying such things.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why is goku getting precognition off of this? That sort of logic sorta gives every melee fighter precog, since prediction is super important for close combat like that. Can't really react to a jab you aren't expecting, for example.

Goku is getting Precognition, or at least upgraded Analytical Prediction, because of this statement.

 

[Newendigo]

So basically, Hit time-skip just worked like a speed amp for himself to virtually teleport, that Goku was just fast enough to react to it?

 

[Axxtentacle]

So basically, Hit time-skip just worked like a speed amp for himself to virtually teleport, that Goku was just fast enough to react to it?

No, he actually does skip time. Think of it like King Crimson's Time Erase, if that clears anything up.

 

[SamanPatou]

As it's being described by you, that just applies to anyone competent in melee combat. This doesn't seem like a very useful way to be applying such things.

It does and that's how it is at the moment, but the user must have deminstrated some to predict the opponent's movements in an exceptional or very particular way.
Goku was able to predict all of Hit's movements and counter his time skip in this way, and it was even stated in the fight itself iirc , which is the reason he already has it on the profile.

Examples of other characters with this ability are Asta and Sonic for pure fighting skill, while people like Yujiro Hanma and Rimuru Tempest can directly predict the outcome of battles

 

[RadicalMrR]

The base assumption here is that Hit's "time skip" is the only technique Hit uses during his first fight with Goku.

The description of his time skip is pretty simple. He jumps to where hed be .1 seconds to where hed be.

Heres the million dollar question, tho.

Can Hit attack his opponent during that timeframe?

If yes then he has timestop.

If no then explain this scene at 6:10. Y is Goku shown as immobile while Hit is attacking? Is Hit just that much faster? But, he explicitly states his timeskip is what improved. Y would the place he skips to in .2 allow him to do this?


But this isnt even the silver bullet to the argument that Hit doesnt have time stop.

Look at this. (8:15)

Hit's already used his time skip, the dimension around them shows as much. If this isnt stoped time then Goku is punching Hit while hes time traveling. In that case we take away time stop resistence and give the DBS cast infinite speed.

I disagree with the change. Weve had these conversations since the episode aired. Its a poorly explained and demonstrated ability that is most likely just time stop. Any other interpretation wont downgrade them just give them different abilities.

Alternatively he has both "Time Skip" and Time Stop during this fight.

 

[Eficiente]

The Precog page should have a part explaining Analytical Prediction, which links into it. No standards means stuff like this happens.

 

[ByAsura]

goku moved in hit time leap
and jiren was able to move when hit use his time cage on jiren which suspend a person in time and this would scale to goku
goku was able to destroy hit dimension which stores time

also I don't know if these 2 point below matter

also goku was able to move in a erased time line when he was picking up the second zeno
and goku and vegeta were holding on time machine when it was going to travel through time so there were on the outside of the time machine while holding on it

That's completely irrelevant. Also, time-skip works by skipping time, so there's no resistance.

Jiren moved in the cage of time, which is basically time-skip applied against an opponent continuously, through what's explicitly raw strength. This doesn't even remotely scale to Universe 6 saga Goku. If anything, it proves that these techniques aren't effective against power.

Which was sheer brute force and seemingly involved no form of time manipulation. May I remind you that Buu Saga characters could puncture holes into different time continuums with their power.

We've agreed that those are outliers. Basically everyone in this thread does, as well, since they repeat immeasurable speed ad nauseam.

Why is goku getting precognition off of this? That sort of logic sorta gives every melee fighter precog, since prediction is super important for close combat like that. Can't really react to a jab you aren't expecting, for example.

As it's being described by you, that just applies to anyone competent in melee combat. This doesn't seem like a very useful way to be applying such things.

It doesn't apply to everyone, that's why it's an ability. Also, predicting an attack from someone literally travelling into the future is far different than predicting someone who's about to attack.

The base assumption here is that Hit's "time skip" is the only technique Hit uses during his first fight with Goku.

Can Hit attack his opponent during that timeframe?

If yes then he has timestop.

If no then explain this scene at 6:10. Y is Goku shown as immobile while Hit is attacking? Is Hit just that much faster? But, he explicitly states his timeskip is what improved. Y would the place he skips to in .2 allow him to do this?

Look at this. (8:15)

Hit's already used his time skip, the dimension around them shows as much. If this isnt stoped time then Goku is punching Hit while hes time traveling. In that case we take away time stop resistence and give the DBS cast infinite speed. I disagree with the change. Weve had these conversations since the episode aired. Its a poorly explained and demonstrated ability that is most likely just time stop. Any other interpretation wont downgrade them just give them different abilities. Alternatively he has both "Time Skip" and Time Stop during this fight.

He did only use the time-skip. That's his only ability until he evolved it to freeze Goku.

That still wouldn't actually be time stop. Even in this case, Hit wouldn't be stopping time for everyone else, he'd be moving time forward for himself. But, for the sake of argument, I'll just accept your logic even though I don't agree with it.

That second link doesn't even go up to 8:15.

And yet Goku or anyone else isn't immobile in this scene or here. It just inconsistency, as you have pointed out. He's also typically portrayed as attacking people after skipping.

Or, we could assume that it's retconned and Goku was countering it by breaking into the future, which King Kai says in the very next episode. We shouldn't use fanon explanations that Vados literally says is wrong. Your silver bullets are looking more like blanks.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Even in this case, Hit wouldn't be stopping time for everyone else, he'd be moving time forward for himself.

Thatd be time travel. If he can punch people while time traveling thatd be Infinite speed (or not, idk wuts happened since i retired).

That second link doesn't even go up to 8:15.

My B, i meant 2:13

And yet Goku or anyone else isn't immobile in this scene

Yes, he attacked after the time stop.

or here

Different technique. Hit was in a different dimension, Dyspo attacked his aura or whatever.

He's also typically portrayed as attacking people after skipping.

And some times hes depicted as attacking between the "time skip".

Either his time skip is timetravel or time stop. Attacking between or just after a time stop makes sense. Attack just after time traveling makes sense, but attacking during it doesnt unless he has infinite speed or smth.

But again, if its timetravel, how can react and change trajectory of where or what he does while hes using it? The interpretation that its time travel has so many holes with it.

Like, u posted a video of Vados saying Hit trapped jiren in continuous "time skips" but how would a technique that jumps u to where ud be in however many seconds lock u in place?

 

[RippleW]

That's completely irrelevant. Also, time-skip works by skipping time, so there's no resistance.

Jiren moved in the cage of time, which is basically time-skip applied against an opponent continuously, through what's explicitly raw strength. This doesn't even remotely scale to Universe 6 saga Goku. If anything, it proves that these techniques aren't effective against power.

Which was sheer brute force and seemingly involved no form of time manipulation. May I remind you that Buu Saga characters could puncture holes into different time continuums with their power.
.

It not irrelevant as when hit time skip it show that goku is frozen on many occasions but goku resist it with his kiaoken as he more powerful and shown many times in db being more powerful then your opponents can grant you resistance to there ability such as buu transmutation when he turn vegito in candy ball and he retain all he ability

it was stated on numerous times that jiren was frozen and hit froze him in time and jiren was able to move through it and break it with his sheer power which vados stated jiren transcend time so the ability that was used on jiren was time stop or freezing him in time and this was a more powerful hit.
here the video

 

[ByAsura]

@RadicalMrR Ok on the second point.

That's exactly my point. He typically attacks after.

It's the same technique with the same background. Also, creating pocket dimensions is separate.

It seems to be a vague form of time travel, where he's just skipping time.

Because he's skipping ahead to the future.

It's being projected onto Jiren. He's even moving before he starts to overpower it.

Also, in this scene that you posted, Goku actually is moving. You even see him open his mouth, so it outright disproves what you were saying. This suggests that Hit is speedblitzing him like I said before.

If it were time stop, then why does it become increasingly and decreasingly effective against stronger beings due to its length? Although the exact argument could also be made against time travel. This is why I think we should go with what's officially said and end it there. Goku just gets limited time travel based on what King Kai said.

@RippleW Just have to ask, is elhermanopadre and alt of your's.

He's not resisting, though. King Kai confirmed that he wasn't.

As I showed Radical, Goku was actually moving when Hit was using the technique, so it's conclusively speedblitzing.

It's stated that Jiren was paralysed or frozen. He's moving the whole time, even jittering before he actually overpowers the technique.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Also, in this scene that you posted, Goku actually is moving.

Yes, because he resisted time skip.

Literally just before that scene Hit saw Goku's speed, used "time skip" in desperation and Goku resisted it through speed. Its the entire reason Hit was so shocked. Despite u saying how Hit was "blitzed" we literally saw him reacting and trying to counter Goku.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If it's through speed, then that's not a resistance. That's a speed feat for moving through time to keep up with someone who's jumping ahead of time. There's not really any other interpretation to be had there.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, because he resisted time skip.

Literally just before that scene Hit saw Goku's speed, used "time skip" in desperation and Goku resisted it through speed. Its the entire reason Hit was so shocked. Despite u saying how Hit was "blitzed" we literally saw him reacting and trying to counter Goku.

Goku wasn't resisting in that scene. It was effective, which is why he was getting obliterated by Hit in the first place.

Also, even if that's true, you can't use these scenes for evidence that he's freezing time anymore.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also, Hit does actually attack during the Time Skip. Here.

 

[ByAsura]

Hit's ability is handled very inconsistently. I think that's the point, though. For example, this clip isn't edited, Vados just straight up ignores what Champa is saying to put it in vague terms.

So we just give Goku limited time travel. Also, that very scene, as I said before, is proof that he's not frozen in time.