Reimu Performs the Equivalent of an Illegal Wrestling Move

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

During Imperishable Night, during the fight against Reimu in stage 4A, she uses two spell cards The first is one that, via turning space inside out, creates a world where boundaries cease to exist. Boundaries are established to be type 1 concepts in the context of Touhou, so this should be Type 1 Conceptual Destruction, Existence Erasure, and Void Manipulation by virtue of erasing type 1 concepts - which in-universe, is stated to reject one’s existence - and by extension creating a conceptless void. Reimu, by virtue of sitting in the middle of this space unharmed, should have resistance to these abilities.

Her second spell card, however, goes a step beyond and traps her opponent inside this space as well. This is notable due to Marisa, Alice, Sakuya, and Remilia all surviving being in the middle of it via fighting her during IN stage 4A (the spell card’s only canon appearance). Thus, they should also have resistance to these abilities.

Remind me again why she’s allowed to do this in what’s supposed to be a non-lethal duel?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Interesting

 

[Shiroiyo]

This seems fine.

Now we just wait months for this to be accepted

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This seems fine.

Now we just wait months for this to be accepted

Obviously the solution is to keep posting CRTs so staff is forced to evaluate them to keep the number down :v

 

[Orioreeem]

Why is this also void manipulation? EE covers it just fine

 

[Jinsye]

You keep taking these things way too literally.

This is just spacehax, not conceptual erasure. First off, if this was conceptual erasure then all of the bullets would merge into a single mush and there would be no attack at all.

This is like, the one time in Touhou where the word "boundary" doesn't actually mean anything in regards to fundamental properties of reality. It's referring to boundaries of a different kind.

This is the spell card you are referring to. The barriers/boundaries Marisa is referring to are the two squares that surround Reimu. The first one reverses the direction of Reimu's attacks and the second one reverses it again. This is done to hide the pathing of the bullets.

The most important statement is "having two barriers on top of each other is equivalent to a world with no boundaries." This doesn't really make sense if you take Touhou's other definition of boundaries. Putting two conceptual separations on top of each other does not make a world with no boundaries. That's a weird assumption to make.

What it actually means is that the second barrier reverses what the first barrier did, making it equal no barrier at all (as the bullets now go in the direction in which they were originally fired). This is very blatantly demonstrated in the spell card. The main threat of it is that it does obscure the pathing of the bullets, not anything conceptual. This is stated here. There are way more statements that support this being just spatial manipulation over conceptual erasure.

Marisa even notes that being outside of the duplex barrier is scarier than being inside the duplex barrier, if it was conceptual erasure then I feel like it would be the opposite.

So basically, stop taking things so literally and learn context.

 

[Orioreeem]

Also pretty sure it would just be reisistance to EE and not concept manipualtion.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You keep taking these things way too literally.

This is just spacehax, not conceptual erasure. First off, if this was conceptual erasure then all of the bullets would merge into a single mush and there would be no attack at all.

Reimu, by virtue of not being affected by the hax she is sitting in the middle of, would not have her attacks affected by the hax. If she is not being erased by an attack that erases concepts, then it stands to reason her attacks wouldn't be either.

This is like, the one time in Touhou where the word "boundary" doesn't actually mean anything in regards to fundamental properties of reality. It's referring to boundaries of a different kind.

Do you have any indication of that, or are you just assuming that it is different in this context and only this context? Furthermore, the text in GoU explicitly uses 境界 to describe boundaries... which is also used in Yukari's profile to denote the boundaries she can manipulate (ie; Type 1 concepts). They're the same thing, and a quick translation check proves it.

This is the spell card you are referring to. The barriers/boundaries Marisa is referring to are the two squares that surround Reimu. The first one reverses the direction of Reimu's attacks and the second one reverses it again. This is done to hide the pathing of the bullets.

Never argued against that. The spell card does work like that, yes.

The most important statement is "having two barriers on top of each other is equivalent to a world with no boundaries." This doesn't really make sense if you take Touhou's other definition of boundaries. Putting two conceptual separations on top of each other does not make a world with no boundaries. That's a weird assumption to make.

Do you have any sort of demonstration of this being the case, or is this just argument from incredulity? A character in the verse says that's how it works, so until you can provide me an instance of it not working like that, I don't have much reason to take what you say at face value. This is just "it's wrong because it seems weird" with no backing evidence.

Like, I'm assuming that's how it works because that's how it's stated to work and I can't find a contradiction to it. Hardly an unreasonable assumption.

What it actually means is that the second barrier reverses what the first barrier did, making it equal no barrier at all (as the bullets now go in the direction in which they were originally fired). This is very blatantly demonstrated in the spell card. The main threat of it is that it does obscure the pathing of the bullets, not anything conceptual. This is stated here. There are way more statements that support this being just spatial manipulation over conceptual erasure.

I never said that this wasn't space-time manip. In fact, I outright said it was at the beginning of the OP ("The first is one that, via turning space inside out,"). I am saying that in doing so she simultaneously creates a world without boundaries. And based on the original text, these are in fact the same boundaries that characters like Yukari manipulate.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Jsyk I'm going through a bunch of random translations to see if I can find a single scenario where 境界 isn't used to denote conceptual boundaries. Haven't found any yet.

EDIT: So here we see 'border' being used in a non-conceptual context, and unsurprisingly 境界 isn't used. I think it's clear that Touhou makes a clear distinction between conceptual and non-conceptual borders/barriers/boundaries (they're used interchangeably idk), and 境界 is what's consistently used to denote conceptual boundaries. Thus, it's safe to say the text in GoU was referring to concepts and not... whatever else.

 

[Jinsye]

Do you have any indication of that, or are you just assuming that it is different in this context and only this context? Furthermore, the text in GoU explicitly uses 境界 to describe boundaries... which is also used in Yukari's profile to denote the boundaries she can manipulate (ie; Type 1 concepts). They're the same thing, and a quick translation check proves it.

You seem to be under the impression that 境界 has one bound definition. That's not the case. It's still just a word that can mean things in different contexts. A boundary can refer to many things.

That's unrelated to the main point though.

Do you have any sort of demonstration of this being the case, or is this just argument from incredulity? A character in the verse says that's how it works, so until you can provide me an instance of it not working like that, I don't have much reason to take what you say at face value. This is just "it's wrong because it seems weird" with no backing evidence.

The demonstration is literally the attack itself. There are two boundaries/barriers. The barriers both clearly exist. They are notably not literally stacked on each other, and the attack shows no properties other than spatial manipulation.

If two conceptual boundaries = literally no boundaries then the world literally can't function as it's entirely made of barriers. It makes far more sense to assume Marisa isn't speaking literally here, and that the ability is doing as it's shown and what "Two barriers is basically equal to no boundaries" actually means is that the second barrier undoes the first barrier, making it practically equivalent to as if there were no barriers at all. Not that everything within the barrier is conceptually erased.

"By turning space inside out, it erases this entire part of the world conceptually" being taken at complete face value when nothing demonstrates it is a leap when the demonstration has no implications of conceptual destruction at all.

 

[Jinsye]

EDIT: So here we see 'border' being used in a non-conceptual context, and unsurprisingly 境界 isn't used. I think it's clear that Touhou makes a clear distinction between conceptual and non-conceptual borders/barriers/boundaries (they're used interchangeably idk), and 境界 is what's consistently used to denote conceptual boundaries. Thus, it's safe to say the text in GoU was referring to concepts and not... whatever else.

Why in the world would they use 境界 there instead of 関所. 境界 means a boundary line (like for example a line drawn in the sand between two people for example) and 関所 means border as in 'checkpoint'. Like as one of these.

One can mean many things, and the other is referring to a specific type of border. You can't use that as an argument.

 

[Paul_Frank]

This thread is a big yikes

Hard agree with Jinsye here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You seem to be under the impression that 境界 has one bound definition. That's not the case. It's still just a word that can mean things in different contexts. A boundary can refer to many things.

That's unrelated to the main point though.

Then can you please show me an instance - in the context of Touhou specifically - where 境界 is not used to refer to concepts? Because as I have shown, that is the only context in which it is used. This is a claim with 0 evidence.

Why in the world would they use 境界 there instead of 関所. 境界 means a boundary line (like for example a line drawn in the sand between two people for example) and 関所 means border as in 'checkpoint'. Like as one of these.

One can mean many things, and the other is referring to a specific type of border. You can't use that as an argument.

Look, that's just one example. My point is that 境界 is invariably used to describe conceptual boundaries, so assuming GoM is an exception requires evidence of that being the case. My question is, do you have that evidence? I'll wager a guess and say no, since I've been spamming Ctrl+F and Ctrl+V on whatever canon pages I can find, and have yet to find any exceptions to 境界 meaning conceptual boundaries.

Btw, turns out 境界 isn't used to refer to barriers either. Weird, almost like it might be used for one specific meaning in this context. I'm up to about... several dozen examples of this now. The consistency with which 境界 is used to refer to the boundary between two concepts is 100% so far. Meanwhile, in virtually every non-conceptual context the words barrier/border/boundary are used... 境界 is nowhere to be found. While 境界 can indeed have a variable definition, in the context of Touhou, it is always about concepts.

The demonstration is literally the attack itself. There are two boundaries/barriers. The barriers both clearly exist. They are notably not literally stacked on each other, and the attack shows no properties other than spatial manipulation.

We give in-universe descriptions of spell cards precedent over the visual representations of those spell cards, as Touhou's gameplay is intentionally stylized for the sake of the genre and not indicative of how things act or appear in lore. We have Reimu's own description of her attack telling us how it plays out, with the boundaries stacked on top of one another and creating a world with no boundaries. To give another example of giving the text precedence, look at Reimu's Duplex Barrier in PCB. Nothing about the visuals of that attack indicates any of the space-time manip. Touhou is a series where text > visuals the vast majority of the time (save for the manga but Duplex Barrier never showed up there so :v).

If two conceptual boundaries = literally no boundaries then the world literally can't function as it's entirely made of barriers. It makes far more sense to assume Marisa isn't speaking literally here, and that the ability is doing as it's shown and what "Two barriers is basically equal to no boundaries" actually means is that the second barrier undoes the first barrier, making it practically equivalent to as if there were no barriers at all. Not that everything within the barrier is conceptually erased.

Two boundaries existing =/= boundaries directly overlapping though. Also, reminder that 境界 refers to conceptual barriers, while the kanji referring to the two barriers is 結界, so the assumption that "two barriers is equal to no boundaries" in your interpretation would mandate the kanji being the same (since the idea is that the barriers cancel each other out). So based on the text, it literally cannot mean the barriers cancel each other out, since the "no boundaries" line uses 境界 (concepts) and not 結界 (barrier).

tfw vsbw users are forced to read and not just look at pretty pictures

"By turning space inside out, it erases this entire part of the world conceptually" being taken at complete face value when nothing demonstrates it is a leap when the demonstration has no implications of conceptual destruction at all.

Jinsye can you please explain to me how you are supposed to visually represent the erasure of fundamental abstract concepts? It is by definition something that relies on the text. And guess what, the text says it's concept manipulation, ******* wild.

 

[Jinsye]

Two boundaries existing =/= boundaries directly overlapping though. Also, reminder that 境界 refers to conceptual barriers, while the kanji referring to the two barriers is 結界, so the assumption that "two barriers is equal to no boundaries" in your interpretation would mandate the kanji being the same (since the idea is that the barriers cancel each other out). So based on the text, it literally cannot mean the barriers cancel each other out, since the "no boundaries" line uses 境界 (concepts) and not 結界 (barrier).

Doesn't the text literally say a barrier is the same as a boundary? In the "Apparently, a barrier is a boundary line between things," (which notably is what 境界 means). I don't think this argument really holds up when it already equates the two as being the same.

Also the boundaries don't even overlap. It's just one boundary surrounded by another boundary. The boundary between a person and the universe would be a similar thing.

Jinsye can you please explain to me how you are supposed to visually represent the erasure of fundamental abstract concepts? It is by definition something that relies on the text. And guess what, the text says it's concept manipulation, ******* wild.

With boundaries it'd be pretty simple, just have everything in the area converge into one amorphous blob. Isn't that what the world was before it had boundaries? If you removed those boundaries then it would just be that.

But that's besides the point really.

Then can you please show me an instance - in the context of Touhou specifically - where 境界 is not used to refer to concepts? Because as I have shown, that is the only context in which it is used. This is a claim with 0 evidence.

Look, that's just one example. My point is that 境界 is invariably used to describe conceptual boundaries, so assuming GoM is an exception requires evidence of that being the case. My question is, do you have that evidence? I'll wager a guess and say no, since I've been spamming Ctrl+F and Ctrl+V on whatever canon pages I can find, and have yet to find any exceptions to 境界 meaning conceptual boundaries.

This isn't really a relevant argument because context shifts depending on the scenario. To bring an example, Chrono uses dreams as type 1 concepts, but there's this spiel from Zeal which mentions dreams. The latter is not related to the former because the context of that speech shows that they aren't talking about the literal conceptual versions of dreams.

Same reason here. The context shows the attack just being a space-distorting barrier, not an entire conceptually nonexistent world. The context here shows that it's more likely just a reversal because that's how it has been shown to work.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Doesn't the text literally say a barrier is the same as a boundary? In the "Apparently, a barrier is a boundary line between things," (which notably is what 境界 means). I don't think this argument really holds up when it already equates the two as being the same.

Also the boundaries don't even overlap. It's just one boundary surrounded by another boundary. The boundary between a person and the universe would be a similar thing.

Actually... No. When referring to the 'boundary line', the text explicitly does not use 境界. That is only used in the context of the 'world without boundaries' line. The 'boundary line' line uses 境目, which to my knowledge has not been used to describe concepts like 境界 has. So, they're definitely different things.

I'm also gonna repeat myself that the text > in-game representation when it comes to Touhou. I'll gladly pull up numerous examples if needed.

With boundaries it'd be pretty simple, just have everything in the area converge into one amorphous blob. Isn't that what the world was before it had boundaries? If you removed those boundaries then it would just be that.

But that's besides the point really.

Not really. Reimu's kind of exempt from that rule considering she's been able to fight and harm characters like Junko, who is also a boundary-less being, without any ill effects on her attacks. Basically, her attacks work fine when dealing with things that exist as conceptless voids, so realistically speaking her attacks would work fine here too. We can't really measure how it affects the world around it since spell cards in Touhou always obscure the stage background.

This isn't really a relevant argument because context shifts depending on the scenario. To bring an example, Chrono uses dreams as type 1 concepts, but there's this spiel from Zeal which mentions dreams. The latter is not related to the former because the context of that speech shows that they aren't talking about the literal conceptual versions of dreams.

Well sure, that makes sense. We'd need to look at the exact words being used to determine the meaning, after all. And 境界 has always been used to represent concepts in Touhou, without exception. I have been digging almost non-stop across the wiki in the downtime between responses to find an exception, and I have found none. Across dozens of instances, 境界 has been used to represent concepts and nothing else. In a case like this, when a phrase is so clearly singled out to mean one thing in a verse, why should we make arbitrary exceptions like this?

Same reason here. The context shows the attack just being a space-distorting barrier, not an entire conceptually nonexistent world. The context here shows that it's more likely just a reversal because that's how it has been shown to work.

This isn't an argument. I am here, right now, telling you that it is space-time hax. I 100% agree with that, I'll throw the scans in the OP into Reimu's space-time hax justifications, whatever. Done deal. The problem, Jinsye, is that that does not disqualify it from doing other things as well. It is space-time hax, but it is also concept hax and existence erasure. Yes, the former is more visually present, but the latter are equally present in the text, which is a perfectly valid way of measuring abilities.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean I'm honest to god willing to bet money on 境界 always referring to concepts. I'd be willing to close this thread and take 2-3 months to look up every instance of 境界 in Touhou canon just to prove a point.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agree

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I guess I'll bump this one too.

Until someone can prove that 境界 in Touhou isn't universally used to refer to concepts, there isn't really an argument that can be made against the OP. Even in the 3 weeks of downtime I've had working on other threads, I still haven't found an exception to this rule.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

augh

I do have scans suggesting that turning boundaries inside out removes them entirely, but I can't post it because I'm on mobile. Should be Marisa's phantasm stage in PCB, where Yukari says that being within the border of night and day means there is neither night nor day; Essentially, two boundaries overlapping (like what Duplex Barrier does) makes those boundaries not exist. So we don't even have to bother with translation fuckery when we have a reliable source telling us that "overlapping boundaries = no boundaries".

Wish I found this scan before making the thread but oh well.

 

[Shmooply]

Should be Marisa's phantasm stage in PCB, where Yukari says that being within the border of night and day means there is neither night nor day; Essentially, two boundaries overlapping (like what Duplex Barrier does) makes those boundaries not exist.

This one?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This one?

Yes, thank you!

 

[Shiroiyo]

bump

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bump,we gotta get this evaluated lol

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bump

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bump