Regarding Upscaling

[Armorchompy]

Saitama doing anything

Frisk one-shotting Sans or any other monster in the Genocide Route

I'd like to include a defensive one too, like a character's hand breaking when they punch someone without them even feeling it

 

[Theglassman12]

So in regards to the characters who ranks in the tiers that have a 10X gap, is there a certain number of upscaling for them to reach the next tier or does the 3/4th thing need to be a thing in order for the next tier to occur regardless how small the gap between tiers are?

 

[Damage3245]

So in regards to the characters who ranks in the tiers that have a 10X gap, is there a certain number of upscaling for them to reach the next tier or does the 3/4th thing need to be a thing in order for the next tier to occur regardless how small the gap between tiers are?

The 3/4th border is something that would have to be crossed for the upscaling to be valid. Do you have a specific example?

 

[Theglassman12]

Dragon ball comes to mind with the planet level power scaling. Considering you have early Namek saga Vegeta one shotting cui who’s on par with Saiyan saga vegeta, Zarbon thrashing Vegeta, Zenkai Vegeta beating him easily, Recoome thrashing that form of Vegeta, and Goku oneshotting Recoome, with kaioken X1 Goku surpassing Ginyu to the point he was scared shitless. If that type of power scaling existed in a 10X gap tier, would they upscale to the next tier or not?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Would something like this feat be enough for an example of upscaling? I had permission to post this from Armorchompy.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think adding about the upper range of the tier (+) would work since it was discussed within upscaling topic and looks largely agree as well.
Maybe adding something like this after the first paragraph:

• Also, in cases where characters are presented to be significantly superior to a calced value whether through repeated statements of superiority in terms of power or through self-evident feats of one-shotting another character using AP advantage alone, then if the value they are scaling to is more than three-quarters of the way towards the upper range of the tier, they can upscale to the baseline value of that upper range of the tier.

Edit: I feel like something about Speed and Lifting Strenght could be done since upscaling has been applied to profiles.

---

Another example is Khun Maschenny Zahard being upscaled from being superior to Ha Yuri Zahard.

 

[Damage3245]

Would something like this feat be enough for an example of upscaling? I had permission to post this from Armorchompy.

Might not be the best example, because two comparable characters in Dragon Ball could hit each other back and forth without even leaving a significant mark on the other. That clip continues to show Broly also fail to cause any damage to Vegeta, despite no-selling his punch from before.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Would Krillin throwing a destructo disk at Perfect Cell and it just stopping on his neck be a better example?

 

[Agnaa]

I'd like to include a defensive one too, like a character's hand breaking when they punch someone without them even feeling it

It's a literature feat, but here's my suggestion for it:

Nanami neither dodged nor blocked the attack, but instead completely ignored it as she struck Kokken’s abdomen with her finger. Kokken was humiliated. It was as if Nanami had not acknowledged her slash as a threat or even as an act of combat, and considered it worthy of no more than a single finger in afterthought.

 

[Armorchompy]

Feat doesn't look bad but how would we integrate it? The rest would be either gifs or links to videos I assume

 

[Agnaa]

Could link to a screencap, either one with more context or one with just that paragraph.

 

[Armorchompy]

Would Krillin throwing a destructo disk at Perfect Cell and it just stopping on his neck be a better example?

This also sounds good btw

 

[AKM sama]

Can we just do it on a case by case basis, please. This is ridiculous.

 

[Damage3245]

Can we just do it on a case by case basis, please. This is ridiculous.

Which bit? We've finally started getting the majority to agree on a single method for upscaling.

We're just gathering examples and having the guideline be finalized to write on the page.

EDIT: Purely case-by-case is the worst and I will argue against using that as our guideline. It means we have no basis at all to deny any and all upscaling for everyone, where it's a 1.5x gap or a 2x gap, or higher. If we're going to keep upscaling from getting out of control, we need a guideline, and I'm still in favor of the 3/4ths method.

 

[AKM sama]

Purely case-by-case is the worst and I will argue against using that as our guideline. It means we have no basis at all to deny any and all upscaling for everyone, where it's a 1.5x gap or a 2x gap, or higher. If we're going to keep upscaling from getting out of control, we need a guideline, and I'm still in favor of the 3/4ths method.

The best basis to deny any upscaling that doesn't make sense is common sense. Last I checked this thread, majority of the staff were against using a set multiplier like thing for upscaling. I don't see their votes being taken again. It's literally the same six people arguing among themselves and reaching a conclusion.

 

[Damage3245]

The best basis to deny any upscaling that doesn't make sense is common sense. Last I checked this thread, majority of the staff were against using a set multiplier like thing for upscaling. I don't see their votes being taken again. It's literally the same six people arguing among themselves and reaching a conclusion.

Well, once the guideline is finished we can put it to a site-wide vote amongst the staff. Then everybody's votes can be taken into account.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I honestly just wish for the thread to be concluded at this point; not to sound blunt but it's been going in circles for 5 pages strait.

 

[Damage3245]

I honestly just wish for the thread to be concluded at this point; not to sound blunt but it's been going in circles for 5 pages strait.

I think we're making progress towards it. It's a hugely controversial topic, so I'm not surprised it's taken multiple pages.

I would have been more than happy if we'd settled on removing upscaling on the first page but there wasn't enough support for that. Would have made things so much simpler.

But now the people arguing on it have mostly settled on a new method for it, and the guideline has been provisionally written up. It just needs refining so it can go to a vote, and then go on our pages if the majority accepts it.

 

[Antvasima]

The best basis to deny any upscaling that doesn't make sense is common sense. Last I checked this thread, majority of the staff were against using a set multiplier like thing for upscaling. I don't see their votes being taken again. It's literally the same six people arguing among themselves and reaching a conclusion.

I personally do not mind a case-by-case basis, depending on by how much a character is superior to another, but we would need to write down a loose guideline text for it.

 

[Antvasima]

I honestly just wish for the thread to be concluded at this point; not to sound blunt but it's been going in circles for 5 pages strait.

Well, the result can easily mess up the wiki, so I prefer if we are careful and take our time.

Speaking of which, AKM has a good point in this regard.

 

[ByAsura]

I honestly don't think much even needs to change. We could just leave it roughly the same as it is (with guidelines, of course) and simply tighten the parameters a tad. There could even just be something like a section within the powerscaling page.

An example of this is final form Ultron. Thor and co. are around 10x baseline Solar System level, so the possibly higher rating seems unrealistic unless he's 88 billion times stronger than Thor.

 

[Antvasima]

ByAsura makes sense to me. We should try to avoid acting as bulls in a china shop to the greatest degree possible.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree with what Asura is saying too. I agree the extreme ends are messy; both axing them outright and the whole "All oneshot chains are 2x multipliers individually" and the like. AKM also brought solid points, but later posts conflicted earlier posts; it sounds like he's proposing case by case despite earlier posts mentioning those lines not being specific enough.

I agree with case by case, but at the same time; details are important too.

 

[Antvasima]

Case by by case is fine with me as well, as it has worked quite well so far. However, writing a bit of text explaining our standards in this regard would likely be good.

 

[Agnaa]

I honestly don't think much even needs to change. We could just leave it roughly the same as it is (with guidelines, of course) and simply tighten the parameters a tad. There could even just be something like a section within the powerscaling page.

An example of this is final form Ultron. Thor and co. are around 10x baseline Solar System level, so the possibly higher rating seems unrealistic unless he's 88 billion times stronger than Thor.

I feel like "possibly higher" can still be useful to indicate that characters are potentially noticeably higher than whatever feat they scale to, even if they wouldn't reach another tier from it.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can anyone answer my question please?

 

[Agnaa]

Dragon ball comes to mind with the planet level power scaling. Considering you have early Namek saga Vegeta one shotting cui who’s on par with Saiyan saga vegeta, Zarbon thrashing Vegeta, Zenkai Vegeta beating him easily, Recoome thrashing that form of Vegeta, and Goku oneshotting Recoome, with kaioken X1 Goku surpassing Ginyu to the point he was scared shitless. If that type of power scaling existed in a 10X gap tier, would they upscale to the next tier or not?

No, in the past we've had a near-unanimous consensus to only consider one one-shot for the purposes of upscaling to another tier, specifically so stuff like this doesn't happen.

 

[Theglassman12]

So massive scaling chains of one shots would be required for someone to pass the 10X gap to the next tier?

 

[Damage3245]

Agnaa is correct. In either case, whether we go with the suggested guideline or not, we wouldn't allow upscaling to extend multiple times across scaling chains.

 

[Agnaa]

So massive scaling chains of one shots would be required for someone to pass the 10X gap to the next tier?

No, you can never chain one-shots. Only one feat counts for upscaling.

 

[AKM sama]

AKM also brought solid points, but later posts conflicted earlier posts

Yes, because the thread was just going in circles and majority people wanted to keep upscaling without any specific multiplier, so why not go with that. I am all for the guidelines mentioning cases where upscaling is not allowed and how it should not be abused for multiple oneshot chains, etc.

 

[ByAsura]

I feel like "possibly higher" can still be useful to indicate that characters are potentially noticeably higher than whatever feat they scale to, even if they wouldn't reach another tier from it.

I don't think it makes as much sense to use it in that capacity.

Also, I'm in agreement that we shouldn't use one-shot chains.

 

[Antvasima]

Case by by case is fine with me as well, as it has worked quite well so far. However, writing a bit of text explaining our standards in this regard would likely be good.

So about this...

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I can literally say nothing more, I have given my stance many times, and I don't know if we'll ever agree

 

[Antvasima]

Well, currently we are leaning towards continuing with "common sense, case by case". We just may need to write a clarifications text.

 

[Agnaa]

I believe we already have a clarifications text from last time we had this discussion.

I remember seeing it on some page earlier, but now I can't seem to find it...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, obviously we should use common sense; only upscale of super close to the next tier and if the displayed gap is noticeably significant.

 

[Sera_EX]

I’m going to repost what I said about this in a brief discussion I had with AKM:

“That said, given the broad nature of upscaling, perhaps the practice shouldn't be used based on, as you said, the fact that it's often highly dependent on one's own view/opinions. It's just an issue with how lenient we can be.

For example, even if you stomp a 3-C+, and that's including the possibility that it was effortless, I'm not seeing why we should believe you are 3-B given the gap between those tiers and the implications of it.

What happened is you effortlessly overcame the durability of that 3-C+, hence your AP should be At least 3-C+ (it's actually better than "higher" in this regard as well).

Based on that, I don't really agree with upscaling, although I understand that logic and don't find any inherent fault with it.”

 

[Damage3245]

What happened is you effortlessly overcame the durability of that 3-C+, hence your AP should be At least 3-C+ (it's actually better than "higher" in this regard as well).

This has been my position from the start.

If more people were in agreement with this, then we wouldn't have had six pages of back-and-forth discussion.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well if the tiers are very close in energy output, and the scaling is from someone who is already “At least X-tier+” then upscaling isn’t really an issue, but many tiers have vast gaps between them.