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Regarding Transcending Time and Space

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ShadowWarrior1999 said:
From what I'm familiar with, there are three dimensions of length, width, and height, and the fourth dimension is time. If a multiverse exists, all the universes would be in a higher-dimensional plane, each with their own space-time bubble.
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Well you are partially right. There is multiple multiverse frameworks and even Higher D frameworks, it is why discussing this issue becomes so hard. In our context, you can be 6-D but still be MFTL+. Transcending our space doesnt mean you are Immeasurable in speed. Transcending our time doesnt mean you are Infinite in speed.


A Tldr:

Expansionary Model of Multiverse: Space-Time is unified under a higher dimension of Space.

Quilted Multiverse: Space-Time is united, but just under 4-D circumstances; there is no higher spatial dimension.

Bubble Multiverse: Multiple Dimensions of Space and a Single, Unified Dimension of Time.

Brane Multiverse Theory: Same as above, only difference is that this one means space time is unified under one framework iirc.

String Theory: Higher Dimensions of Space exist as well as a single dimension of Time.

There is more, but you get the picture. Honestly, higher dimensionality and 'transcending time' should still auto default to be skeptical of Infinite and Immeasurable Speed unless other pieces of evidence prove otherwise. But considering that would downgrade dozens of verses and our wiki accepts Immeasurable Speed as a standard for 5-D creatures, I doubt that would happen.
 
Are we discussing whether things like this are legit or not, or do we already know it isn't legit and we're discussing what to write down somewhere to address these situations?
 
Andytrenom said:
Are we discussing whether things like this are legit or not, or do we already know it isn't legit and we're discussing what to write down somewhere to address these situations?
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A mixture of both . I think we shifted however to how we treat Infinite/immeasurable speed for transcending space and/or time.
 
Welp, something is sure and is grant Low 2-C to those who exist outside (or even transcend, depending of what can they do) is wrong. As reasons I explained: outside of time = immesurable (not necessary "faster" than infinite most of the time), outside of space = teleportation, transcend time = temporal presence, transcend space = n-omnipresence. But that last one is my opinion.
 
If someone transcended humanity, that doesn't mean they can wipe out all of humanity with one attack, that just means they are beyond the restrictions normal humans have. Transcending time doesn't automatically imply having the power to destroy time as if it was a physical object, it could easily just refer to someone being unbound by the normal laws of time.

That's my take on it anyway.
 
I agree, I think that was the reason of Skull Girls downgrade, confusing the manipulation of time and space with its destruction.
 
Imo, this is pretty similar to beings whom claim to be higher dimensional but have feats of being planet level or less without any higher dimensional feats.

In my opinion, this heavyily depends on context, scaling, Consistency, and the cosmology of the verse. its as many said and a famous line above its one of those generic "case by case" scenarios.
 
Think people kinda confuses the usual "time transcendance" (which is just being unaffected by time stuff, to a varying degree) and transcendance that involves being on a higher plane of reality compared to the stuff you're transcending, which is what we usually give AP for.

And, well, most charactes who "transcend time" fit the former category way more.
 
Antoniofer said:
I agree, I think that was the reason of Skull Girls downgrade, confusing the manipulation of time and space with its destruction.
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Yeah that's just space-time manipulation with 2-C range, not AP.

Similar to how Sakuya isn't 2-C because she can pull versions of herself out of other timelines.
 
Transcending space-time is a case by case scenario, but it depends on the context. The statement alone is not enough to qualify a Low 2-C rating, and there would need to be more feats and/or context for Immeasurable, but Infinite can be reasonable under certain circumstances.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Transcending time is only Infinite speed at its most generous.
Zero reason to grant such characters Low 2-C unless further context is provided to justify saying it refers to their power transcending space-time. The Xenahort thing in the OP is even more egregious as the context is blatantly on Time Travel.
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This. The statement means nothing without the context. "Transcending time" statements are thrown around in fiction like nothing and often the context in which they are used aren't even remotely related to speed or AP (cough*Jiren*cough).

Also, the Sagan standard of ECREE applies here. We can't just slap an extraordinary rating on a profile based on an extraordinary claim that doesn't have an extraordinary evidence to show for itself.
 
I strongly agree with Kepekley23. We definitely cannot rate raw power/attack potency based on being able to time travel, possessing limited time manipulation, or being able to move at infinite or immeasurable speed, which is what transcending time alone tends to mean. Genuinely transcending space-time might give a higher tier, but we still need additional context for evidence.
 
"Transcending time and space" without further context means absolutely nothing (It can be something as mundane as time travel or infinite/immeasurable speed, or tier 2/1 stuff, all depending from the context and the setting).

So yeah as others said, case by case
 
Well, that should preferably be adjusted to unknown then, unless we have something more reliable to scale from.
 
Statements alone mean nothing, need supporting feats, therefore case by case.

What most other people said.

Hl3 or bust said:
Low 2-C based off of transcending time alone is wrong
Immeasurable is correct, however
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I'm glad my point got through to you now give Reggy the 8-C place
 
Well, i'am pretty agree for the creation of a page, if we can avoid things as Soul eater from Valkyrie or the whole Skull girls stuff, we need a page which separate different ranting regarding the statement, what i think is:

"Regarding the Transcendence of Time and Space, All statement about this aren't liked to only one ranting, there exist different ranting according to the context and the feat related to the statement:

  • False Transcendence: The character is stated to Transcend Time and Space but doesn't explicitly demonstrated what status they gain after that, in this case, we only assume that he is now Resistant to Temporal and Spatial Ability
  • Unconventional Transcendence: Those Characters Transcend Time and Space but via some abilities such as Time Travel, in this case, the statement is not "true" in the conventional mean and the characters aren't completly Transcendent
  • Semi-Perfect Transcendence: Those Characters are showed/stated to completely Transcend Time and Space, they can completly ignore the rule of Space Time, those characters can effortlessly cross Time Space via their very movements, in this case, they gain Immeasurable speed as they can cross everywhere anytime.
  • Perfect Transcendence: In this case too, the characters is stated/showed to be beyond the spatial and temporal dimensions but unlike the Semi Perfect Transcendence, the characters need to show, not only a state, but a power beyond those dimensions, those characters gain a Low 2-C rant and Immeasurable speed
Well, you can modify this suggestion if something need to be changed.
 
Antvasima said:
I strongly agree with Kepekley23. We definitely cannot rate raw power/attack potency based on being able to time travel, possessing limited time manipulation, or being able to move at infinite or immeasurable speed, which is what transcending time alone tends to mean. Genuinely transcending space-time might give a higher tier, but we still need additional context for evidence.
Click to expand...
Kaltias said:
"Transcending time and space" without further context means absolutely nothing (It can be something as mundane as time travel or infinite/immeasurable speed, or tier 2/1 stuff, all depending from the context and the setting).

So yeah as others said, case by case
Click to expand...
I agree as well.
 
Creating a page will solve nothing. At some point in time we need to just accept that if people don't get it, they don't get it. They will eventually. One needs only experience.

You could make a thousand pages about Calculus but if the reader doesn't even understand basic algebra, how will they understand something more complex?

Tier 2/1 stuff is a bit more complex using our standards than the tiers below them. It's obvious that merely transcending time and space isn't enough to grant a higher tier based on zero context. It's a vague, almost umbrella statement that could even apply to something just being resistant to space-time manipulation.

People just need to stop debating stuff they don't understand. Simplest solution to a simple problem. All fruits don't ripen at the same time.
 
Perhaps we needs to treat this as a power rather than a AP rating, so people do not make someone "strong" based on that.
 
Powers kinda need a consistent definition though, "Transcending Time" can mean too many things for it to be a single power.
 
"Transcending Time"... Hmm I am neutral toward all of this given the complexities of this matter beyond on what we can do so far.

At the least, I can only suggest to do case by case and that is really all I have to say here.
 
I disagree with Sera. If we have pages with proper explanations it greatly helps many of our community members to better orient themselves, and then they will be able to better help out with different discussions, rather than hoping that somebody who understands all issues intuitively is still around and has the time and energy available to do so.

That some will still not understand is not a proper rationale for preventing as many people as possible to learn and help others in turn.
 
That said, I am referring to the subject of explanation pages in general. I am also not at all sure about creating one for what The Causality suggested.
 
Antvasima said:
I disagree with Sera. If we have pages with proper explanations it greatly helps many of our community members to better orient themselves, and then they will be able to better help out with different discussions, rather than hoping that somebody who understands all issues intuitively is still around and has the time and energy available to do so.
That some will still not understand is not a proper rationale for preventing as many people as possible to learn and help others in turn.
Click to expand...
I think there no ned for a new page honestly because the additonal explanations could be expanded on Higher-Dimensional Existence as it is the related ability to Transcendence.

On the topic of Transcendence, Semi-Perfect Transcendence looks flawed to me because it not associated with the Tiering System rating, and has never associated with Higher-Dimensional Existence; it feel like a minomers as the case as only being associated with speed, from my view.
 
"Transcending Time" can possibly mean they are not bound by time, but at the same time bound by space given how this will be the case. Of course we assume this was meant to be taken literally. Now the question for "Transcending Time and Space": Is there a possibility for it to be taken figuratively as well?
 
I would imagine it will be used less frequently than "Transcending time" as a figure of speech. But yeah the possibility is always there.
 
I also don't think a page is necessary for this. I mean, nowhere in our wiki do we state that only statements about transcending time/space is enough to grant a particular speed/AP rating.

The whole notion that a statement alone is enough to grant such ratings is flawed in itself. I think it's just a matter of applying common logic and general knowledge, like we do to judge all the other feats and statements.
 
Yeah, it kinda reminds me of that CRT where it was proposed to make "characters with time travel should know where to travel to in order to paradox someone" an actual rule for vs debates, despite it being a matter of simple logic.
 
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