Regarding Transcending Time and Space

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So this is a discusion brought up in this thread that Xehanort should be Low 2-C and Immeasurable via statements that he is transcending time. However, it has been noted by many members that these statements do not immediately grant these ratings. As such we need to define our standards on this as we have characters who have Immeasurable speed and are Low 2-C based on this alone with nothing else backing up their feats.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think this is inherently low 2-C, if the spacetime thing isn't big enough. As for Speed:

• Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)

To transcend it in its entirety would seem to be beyond linear timeframes.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Low 2-C based off of transcending time alone is wrong

Immeasurable is correct, however

 

[Bobsican]

Leaving this for reference

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

It really depends on context. If they aren't shown to actually move/exist beyond time, then it's not Low 2-C/immeasurable and can be treated as flowery language like with Jiren, or Bill saying he isn't "oppressed by the tyranny of time" when he was just referring to humans aging.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Transcending time is Infinite speed, you'd need to be able to move through time through sheer speed to be immeasurable

 

[SinsofMan]

Well honestly, I couuld do all theoritically physics and say that Transcension of Time depends on the type of Multiverse we live in, but I don't wanna open that can of worms.

I agree with Shadow tho. The first assumption should usually be flowerly language unless proven otherwise. IE: Can they time travel, create multiple clones of themselves? etc etc

 

[Eficiente]

Both Low 2-C and Immeasurable speed could be wrong with the proper context in the character/realm that transcends space-time, so yes we need some rules on this.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Transcending time is Infinite speed, you'd need to be able to move through time through sheer speed to be immeasurable

except that actually transcending time would let you do that

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nocturne was downgraded to Infinite speed because it was stated that he transcends time

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2670526

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

what in the goddamn

regardless, i'm fairly certain taht most characters who actually transcend time already have feats for this

and with that i yeet myself

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Transcending time is Infinite speed, you'd need to be able to move through time through sheer speed to be immeasurable

Infinites don't transcend time, time = 0 but they're still bound by it since they can't move beyond the linear passage of time.

Of course this is assuming the transcending time is actually legit and not something that's taken out of context/flowery language.

 

[SinsofMan]

Wait a minute, do they transcend space-time or just time?

If so, that actually matters.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

Our Speed Page for Note 4 implies that if you can move in a timeless void, you get Infinite Speed.

So if they transcend Time, then logically they should be a timeless void, so that is infinite.

If they transcend Space-Time, then logically they should either be a higher spatio-temporal dimension or beyond dimensionality, so that is Immeasurable or Irrelevant.

Based on this, I think 'Possibly Infinite' could be fine assuming we have just this to go on, or perhaps "Likely Higher."

I am personally uncomfortable just accepting it because "well I transcend time."

Okay? Jiren said the same thing, yet he has no other qualities of Infinite Speed.

I agree with Shadow, just chalk it up to flowery language. Even me saying "Possibly" is sort of loose.

I am technically fine with it, but I have just so many questions on the consequences that even me who has a tendecy to use Occams Razor cant ignore this.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sins are you referring to Nocturne or Xehanort?

 

[SinsofMan]

@Sins are you referring to Nocturne or Xehanort?

Xehanort.

But Nocturne I guess can be brought up in another thread.

I could bring some theoritical physics sources on the implications of transcension of time, but it is probably a case by case.

 

[Antoniofer]

You need to be 5-D in order to move at Immesurable speed as, ignoring 4-D in the same way 3-D ignore 2-D, one can say it exist outside of time (and space too). So existing outside time (or transcending it) could grants Immesurable, as they aren't bounded by it and nothing avoid the user to go back or ahead of time (so Temporal Presence).

Note that having Immesurable do not grants Infinite speed, that is more of moving in an additional axis.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mena in Nocturne's case he's stated three times to transcend time, be beyond time and space, and exist outside of time

Dunno about Xehanort

 

[Wokistan]

Being higher dimensional on its own isn't necessarily immeasurable speed. You can still be bound to 1 temporal dimension while occupying like 6 spatial ones.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

I actually dont know the standards for this, but sort of some objections/questions

If you are 5-D, in most conventional physics and even some fiction, you are usually 5-D spatially with an extra dimension of time.

The Theory of Relativity united space time together, so in other if you somehow transcended the physical universe, you would technically be 4-D via the treatment of Relativity and even segments of String Theory.

So basically, two questions.

1. What if you 4-D, so a Space-Time entity, doesn't that count for Immeasurable Speed?

2. Even assuming that you seperate Time as its own thing as it is in Brane and String Theory, why would being 5-D give you auto immeasurable speed?

Transcension of Time sort of leads to these contentions. Some physics treat Time as a Temporal Dimensions, others unifty Space-Time.

Am I right to say we assume neither on this wiki and what we care about is applying Immeasurable speed to higher Spatial Entities by default?

 

[SinsofMan]

Woki also ninjaed me with the exact thing I have been thinking about.

Temporal and Spatial Dimensions are very different, but Infinite/Immeasurable Speed sort of has this 'it depends' context behind it.

I could argue in Bosonic String Theory that someone is 25-D, but that doesnt mean they have Immeasurable Speed unless they transcend the Temporal Dimension AND Spatial Dimension.

 

[Eficiente]

How about we make a page called "Standards to transcend Time and Space" with something like this

"Characters/objects/realms that transcend time and space may not necessarily be granted a Infinite/Immeasurable speed and a Low 2-C Tier if the context behind their transcendence has certain inconsistencies.

Such as the character/object/realm still being tied to time and space and their transcendence being used as an excuse to merely function differently or randomly with time and space.

Respectily, enough contradictions to the stats that their transcendence would give them can also be used as evidence against them."

Just an early proposal.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"So if they transcend Time, then logically they should be a timeless void, so that is infinite."

Not always true. It has to be established that moving in said void cannot be done by characters with finite speeds, otherwise basically every tier 2 character would be infinite/immeasurable because they moved after they destroyed universes. Most fictions don't treat moving in timeless voids as something that requires infinite speed.

Also as I said to Weekly, being timeless or outside of time =/= transcending it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Shadow Noc directly states that he transcends time on top of existing outside it and beyond time and space

 

[SinsofMan]

Snip

I think it sounds find as a sort of duct tape for now, but Infinite and Immeasurable Speed really in a way are physically impossible.

So our best guess is then analyze the framework of the universe, the statement itself, etc etc.

String Theory seperates time as its own dimensionality prevelant throughout up to 26-D.

But Einstein also unified Space-Time together.

In a weird way, you can be 25-D but still be MFTL+ but also 4-D and be Immeasurable so long as you transcend space-time and the same logic would apply if you were transcending Time itself.

I am neutral on the Xehanort thing btw, I want to hear more arguments.

 

[SinsofMan]

I am just looking at this through a hard physics perspective. Not so much the statement itself.

I actually agree with you if you scroll up. That is why I am neutral for now.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

From what I recall the context in which it was used didn't support immeasurable.

 

[Kepekley23]

Transcending time is only Infinite speed at its most generous.

Zero reason to grant such characters Low 2-C unless further context is provided to justify saying it refers to their power transcending space-time. The Xenahort thing in the OP is even more egregious as the context is blatantly on Time Travel.

 

[Antoniofer]

I generally undestood 4-D as the additional spatial dimension (or apparently most fiction follow this rule), so being 4-D wouldn't grant immesurable, but rather Teleportation/Nigh Omnipresence. But most dimensional knowledge of mine is based in another system.

 

[SinsofMan]

I generally undestood 4-D as the additional spatial dimension (or apparently most fiction follow this rule), so being 4-D wouldn't grant immesurable, but rather Teleportation/Nigh Omnipresence. But most dimensional knowledge of mine is based in another system.

So we seperate 4-D as in, spatial dimensions. Cool.

Well using that metric, and perhaps using the above as well, no Xehanort does not qualify for Immeasurable Speed.

Even Infinite seems wishy washy.

 

[DMUA]

It ultimately depends on what "Transcends" actually means in the story, really

If that's some level of power it's probably Low 2-C, if it's just time travel then it doesn't mean much

Ultimately I'm just gonna give the generic "case by case lol" cause I don't really have much else

 

[Paul_Frank]

Nice

 

[Antoniofer]

I pressume that "Transcend" means that the concept of time is irrelevant, although other times simply means "exist out of it". I guess I believe the oposite of Kep's, would give those that exist outside of time Immesurable (or Temporal Presence) but wouldn't grant infinite speed.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

you saw nothing or else

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I generally undestood 4-D as the additional spatial dimension (or apparently most fiction follow this rule), so being 4-D wouldn't grant immesurable, but rather Teleportation/Nigh Omnipresence. But most dimensional knowledge of mine is based in another system.

Why would being 4D grant someone teleportation or nigh-omnipresence if they don't show any indication of having it?

 

[Antoniofer]

As I mentioned as example of the 3-D ignoring the 2-D, like joining two points draw in a paper by bending it (I could explain it better but I'm using a phone cuz there's no electricity).

 

[SinsofMan]

As I mentioned as example of the 3-D ignoring the 2-D, like joining two points draw in a paper by bending it (I could explain it better but I'm using a phone cuz there's no electricity).

Or how an infinite number of infinite sized 3-D cubes could still fit inside a finite 4-D sized Cube, as based on Brane/Bubble Multiverse theory.

But not sure if that should be the auto assumption since, imo, 4-D gets complicated the more you think about it.

In fiction, I guess I agree with what Eficiente typed above.

Lets just not treat it as either or unless there is more evidence.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Antoniofer That sounds like spatial manipulation.

 

[SinsofMan]

That sounds like spatial manipulation.

Welcome to cosmology, where 4-D can be space-time, or can just be a really big ******* cube lmao.

There is one case of someone transcending space-time that is omnipresent and that is Ultimecia.

Evaluation by case by case, but we have accepted similar stuff in the past.

However, noping any of this for Xehanort.

 

[Antoniofer]

Wep, 4-D is an spatial dimension (although it could vary), so having Spatial Manipulation could grants this ability (no, not everyone with said power can do it). See Obito with Kamui for example (although it do not grants teleportation nor n-omnipresence, but you get the idea).

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

From what I'm familiar with, there are three dimensions of length, width, and height, and the fourth dimension is time. If a multiverse exists, all the universes would be in a higher-dimensional plane, each with their own space-time bubble.