Regarding Sonic's Speed

[Ryukama]

Hello. Now I am not calling for a downgrade at the moment. However I feel like some of the reasoning for base Sonic being FTL is a bit questionable.

1. It uses the official guidebook sources. Which I am not always immediately against. However as we've shown in the past, we don't always use guidebook statements if actual feats/showings don't back them up.

And personally I don't feel comfortable with trusting a Guinesse World Record section that also claims Sonic to be the fastest gaming character ever, and a guidebook statement that actually calls him Lightspeed, not FTL.

If we decide these statements can be accepted, I'm fine with that. But some of the other feats listed I have more questions with.

2. The Cyan Laser feat. Well the alien shows multiple signs that go against our laser feats. Such as being tangible and able to be physically interracted with by people (the profile directly says Sonic caught it), the light form can bounce around off walls and such, and is able to swirl in loopdeeloops.

3. We use the Light Speed Dash which is stated to give Sonic SoL attack speed. However Light Speed Shoes are explicitly a speed amping technique. So why are we using a case where Sonic has to amp himself to reach SoL in order to justify FTL base?

4. The black hole feat. Now there isn't a calc on this. However if the result turns out to be FTL or calcers decide it logically should be FTL, then I am willing to completely concede on his rating. Especially since I would love an FTL Sonic.

Please note I am not immediately trying to have a downgrade happen. Rather I am asking questions involving some of the reasonings I see listed on his profile. If I am mistaken on things or shown to be wrong, then I am more than happy to hear about it. All I want is some clarification and if Sonic's ratings are fully justified then I'd love to be reassured of that for the sake of our site's accuracy. Thank you for reading or for any input.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have one major problem with this. It's just glaring, and you shouldn't have made the thread if you didn't notice this.

It's loopdeeloops. Not loopdyloops.

Jokes aside, Ryu makes sense about the guidebooks (esp. considering the guidebook is Guniess and not SEGA) and the Cyan Laser.

 

[SomebodyData]

I already pointed this out back when we had the talk about this originally (The Sonic thread), I think Antvasima was the one who ultimately decided however.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So you're asking for clarification on weather Sonic's base speed rating of FTL is legitimate enough or not, right?

On a side note as this is a Sonic related thread, does anybody know and/or feel that Hyper Sonic's "Likely MFTL" speed rating is right? Cause Mikoto, when she sockpuppted a while back as one of her sock accounts, pointed it out, i didn't think much about it. Now, and this is probably one of the only times i'll do this that i never thought of doing, but she probably has a point and that maybe it would have made more sense if we had put "at least FTL+, likely higher". It kind of also makes sense as Sonic had to have been either A) many times faster to the point of reaching MFTL, or B) be on the much higher end of FTL+ to have a boost to that.

Not trying to divert it a bit, just something to note and ask about as this is technically Sonic related. Any thoughts on that?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're right, Cross.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cross Yes. That's exactly what I'm asking.

Also personally due to the massive increase between forms, I'm fine with either MFTL or "At least FTL+, likely higher" if Sonic's base being FTL is legitamate. But I feel some of these reasonings are a bit faulty, which is why I made the thread.

 

[SomebodyData]

Again, I was in the thread in which that was discussed, originally the suggestions were lower, but nearly everyone else there wanted higher suggestions due to the gap between the forms (Still think that the gap argument is bs that due to lack of proper evidence shouldn't have been accepted in the first place), sadly everyone wanted the thread done already. Heck, At least FTL+ is also generous, as Super Sonic is FTL+ for being higher than normal Sonic, who even then was only FTL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, I'm asking why everyone is scaled to Sonic in speed when the games make a big point that everyone else is <<<<<<<< Sonic, except for maybe Tails and Amy (not even Knuckles).

 

[Ryukama]

@SD Thanks for the input.

What do you think about my points related to Base Sonic's speed? I feel that topic is very important to address first, since that will of course impact the whole "At least FTL+" discussion greatly.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm....the points you made seem to sound reasonable on questioning the legitmatecy of his base speed. Is there anything else we could have had him at there aside from his "almost outrunning a black hole" feat?

Aye. Like i said, Mikoto may have actually had a point on how we should have put him at "at least FTL+, likely higher" as he had to have either gain a tremendous boost from going into Hyper Sonic or had to have been much higher on the FTL+ range to be able to go to MFTL when using Hyper form. So a change to that unless said otherwise against it should be made after this one is settled.

 

[Ryukama]

Like I said, if the black hole feat gets FTL I'll completely and happily concede to his rating.

However I feel like a Guinesse World Record statement, a laser dodging feat from an alien that acts very little like a laser, and a low end where Sonic actually needs to amp himself to reach Speed of Light do not justify FTL well. If blackhole feat is accepted I'd still want the other reasons to be removed.

Though if I'm proven wrong about doubting those reasons I'll concede on that too. All I want is clarification not a downgrade right now.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Ryu like I said in my first post I had the same concerns as you, just that they were basically avoided over the official guidebook.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I can be fine about the BH (black hole) feat too if someone else who actually knows of Sonic can clarify it. As for the other reasonings that you said, those could be deleted off if they don't count or qualify as justifications.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cross the Black Hole is actually an Anti-Feat, he didn't manage to escape it, I pointed it out as well in the original thread.

As a matter of fact, I think the original thread needs to be brought up. I would link it but Sonic's discussion thread doesn't let me go past the first page.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Oh.....keep forgetting that he did the opposite and not outran it.

Yeah that's a thing that Wikia kind of still needs to work upon.

 

[Ryukama]

@SD The profile implies that although he didn't outrun the black hole, the feat could still be FTL. Is that the case? I think it'd be good if we got a calc for it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes, as it takes a mid-degree of FTL to actually outrun one, especially when the thing outrunning it has mass. However, likewise it can be severally smaller. It needs a calc, but to do that we need to see how much of a gravitational pull the black hole actually has.

Additionally, even in the cutscene, the black hole's pull was incredibly weak for a black hole, as most of the area he was running on should have been destroyed the moment it there, but it wasn't, and actually took quite a few minutes.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmm, you do have a point.

Sonic does have another lightspeed statement, and he's been able to dodge Lightspeed Attacks from other people, such as Emerl. Idk if that counts, but it's there.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm, in that case he would LS instead of FTL. Of course, this suggests that, when combined with the fact that only one attack is actually stated to LS specifically, that travel speed would likely be different from normal combat speed (Which would still be LS due to the specific attack btw)

Though what I find interesting is that it suggests his wolf form is not even LS.

Ie, if we were to scale from this, it would be:

Base Sonic : Lightspeed

Super Sonic : FTL

Hyper Sonic : At least FTL

Were Sonic: At most Relavistic+

 

[SomebodyData]

@venom, actually do you know the origin of that source you sited? I ask because it kinda sounds more like a review than something we can use.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

@Data

Sadly, no (I've found it in imgur while searching for LS/FTL statements). But it appears to be some kind of guide or book, considering the format (There's a division that separates the pages by the left of the text).

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

snip

Because they can all tag Sonic when they battle each other, and several characters (Like Vector the Crocodile of all people) fight bosses who were a challenge for Shadow.

Personally though, I think most non-"speeder" characters should get "FTL/Relativistic+ Combat Speed" rather than straight FTL/Relativistic

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with scaling most people to Sonic. Sonic may be faster than them, but they can still have fights with him.

However the only thing supporting FTL Sonic at the moment is a Guinesse Book of World Records segment that calls him the fastest gaming character ever.

The other things are a statement calling him Lightspeed, a case where Sonic explicitly has to amp himself to be Lightspeed, an offscreen laser dodging feat involving a laser that goes against several of our guidelines.

And the black hole feat. @Dark would you be willing/able to calc it please? It could potentially really help with the ratings.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I can attempt too, but I have no idea how a calc like that works. I guess I can study off of that Iron Man feat.

About the Guinesse Book thing. That scan actually comes from "Sonic the Hedgehog Super Interactive Annual 2014", which is an official SEGA book/factbook. that dos say faster than light. Not sure if that changes anything.

Edit: Annual, not Manual.

 

[Ryukama]

@Dark Thank you very much for your help either way.

Also I see. Thanks for correcting me. However I'm unsure to trust that considering Sonic seems to have no FTL feats in the series, has other official sources only calling him SoL, and in game explicitly amps himself to be SoL.

I'm fine if people want to accept the statement though. And like I said if the blackhole feat is FTL than I highly support Sonic keep the rating. Some of these justifications may have to be revised though.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Sonic's speed varies greatly depending on the source, the guys at SEGA have no idea how fast they want to make him. Several sources says he can run at Mach 1 (Supersonic), a few cite him as Hypersonic and most more recent ones can be"anywhere" from Rel+ to FTL.

For what it's worth, I found a list of FTL statements for Sonic on Comicvine. It's written in a really ranty and poor manner and most of the sources or statements seem unreliable so far (A news site cites sonic as FTL, Yuji Naka said Sonic Heroes is "Light Speed Action", etc).

 

[Ryukama]

I guess if there are more FTL statements than the single one our profile uses, then the rating is more reliable. But if the WoG varies as much as you say, it might also be better to just go by actual feats.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Let me rephrase the Word of God thing. I meant to say older sources cite him from Supersonic to Hypersonic in speed, most newer sources stick to around Light Speed/FTL I've noticed. Regardless, the Black Hole thing would most likely be at least Rel.

 

[Ryukama]

Thank you very much for the input and help. Do you have a link to these other LS/FTL statements?

 

[Antvasima]

Ryukama asked me to comment here, but I am afraid that I am too tired to have much of an opinion regarding the issue. I suppose that the FTL guidebook statement seems useful.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant It's perfectly fine and sorry for bothering you then. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Found this:

Sonic: Too easy!

Omega: Speed data 130% higher than previous entry. Suepected error...

Tails: Nice run, Sonic!

Omega: Impossible... At this rate, light speed will be exceeded.

Sonic: Light speed? That's small time. There's no challenge!

Omega: Does not compute...

Source. I had trouble finding the in-game source, but I believe it's somewhere in the "Asteroid Coaster" Zone.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ryukama No problem.

 

[Ryukama]

@Dark An advanced robot made by Eggman scientifically analyzing Sonic's speed to be FTL to which Sonic responds that's nothing to him seems much more reliable than the majority of the reasonings on his profile.

I'd be fine with Sonic being FTL based on that personally. But it's whatever most staff think is best.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think FTL based on this reasoning would be ok.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think FTL is consistent enough to stay as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

Oooh, about that, is Sonic Colors DS canon? Much more-so a side mission?

I have doubts about treating this version of the game canon over the main one.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

As far as I can tell, the only Sonic game to be outed as Non-Canon is Sonic Chronicles.

 

[Ryukama]

As far as I can tell, the only Sonic game to be outed as Non-Canon is Sonic Chronicles.

And I believe 06 as well since IIRC the events of that game were technically undone by wonky time stuff at the end.

 

[SomebodyData]

Really? Then we have to decide ourselves which variation to use.