Regarding Infinite Speed

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Was given permission to post this from Promestein in this thread. In that thread, the topic of the validity of certain infinite speed feats came up; specifically, those that rely on reaching the 'edge' of a supposedly infinite space. The problem here is obvious; an infinite space cannot logically have an edge, so these sorts of feats should be invalid. Anything the involves crossing an infinite space (since you have to move past the edge of something in order to reach it) or filling an infinite space in a finite period of time (to fill something completely you'd have to reach the outer edges of it) would also be affected. Off the top of my head, here are a few verses and feats that would need to be axed if we stop using these kinds of feats.

-The protagonists of Imperishable Night flying to the end of Kaguya's infinite corridor (Touhou Project)
-Necrozma's light crossing all of Ultra Space (Pokemon)
-Helios' light filling the entirety of the Underworld (God of War)
And likely quite a few others.

Our current speed standards allow for such feats, since it explicitly mentions that crossing an infinite space in a finite period of time is a good qualifier for infinite speed. This thread will (hopefully) act as a way to discuss if those standards should remain.

 

[Everything12]

Slightly issue here

those that rely on reaching the 'edge' of a supposedly infinite space.

This is an impossibility because an infinite object by its definition can't have an end or an edge.

Anything the involves crossing an infinite space (since you have to move past the edge of something in order to reach it) or filling an infinite space in a finite period of time (to fill something completely you'd have to reach the outer edges of it) would also be affected.

Logical yes these require edges and ends, but only with the type of logic that make infinity a real life impossibility, and thus not the type of logic the Wiki uses. This is just infinite speed, which by itself is a real world impossibility.

Those stuff in your brackets are why one can't cross an infinite distance in real life, but by nature of how Wiki treats this stuff is ignored. Basically as long it doesn't mention a infinite space having an edge it logically shouldn't have then the feat should stay.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yet another thread started by whataboutism, applying real life logic to fictional verses and general misunderstandings.

FYI Nercozma Infinite speed comes from his light affecting a 2-A structure which is two infinities above the 2hu example which is High 3-A iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

What do you think about this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To be clear I disagree with removing these kinds of feats, I just figured bringing it up was necessary and I had permission to do so :v

 

[Everything12]

Yet another thread started by whataboutism, applying real life logic to fictional verses and general misunderstandings.

Kinda agree with this sentiment, but this

FYI Nercozma Infinite speed comes from his light affecting a 2-A structure which is two infinities above the 2hu example which is High 3-A iirc.

Doesn't change anything. The difference is one verse mentions an infinite space having a edge, forcing us to acknowledge it and say "thus it can't be an infinite space". The other doesn't and we can continue pretending an infinite space and infinite speed is something that makes any kind of logical sense.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

To avoid further misunderstandings the Pokémon example (the 2-A/High 3-A and infinite speed) are still just likely ratings with the concrete rating being 2-B/3-C and MFTL+. Essentially the infinite speed goes hand in hand with the higher interpretation of the cosmology IIRC.

As for the 2hu example I'm not that knowledgeable about the verse tbh to give an informed opinion (Especially when it seems the 2hu example explicitly states there's a "border" on infinite space) so it's better if users/staff that are more knowledgeable about different infinite's give their input.

Sorry if I caused any derailment or said anything that was incorrect, I'll get off this thread now.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry if I caused any detainment or said anything that was incorrect.

No problem.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The issue I have with that is that speed is defined as Distance/Time, but in the case of crossing an infinite space that is not stated to have an edge, you wouldn't be able to get distance since whoever is traveling an would never reach an end in the first place, meaning distance can't be measured. You would have to measure the distance between their starting position and ending position, but if there is no ending position (as there would be no 'edge' in most cases), then there's no way to get distance. At that point you would need to assume that a character traveled an undefined finite distance instead of an infinite one.

Again, I disagree with the notion that these feats should not be used. Infinite speed is illogical just by itself, and applying any further degree of 'logic' to these feats is unnecessary IMO.

 

[Malomtek]

What about cases where a character or vehicle is supposed to be crossing an "infinite" space, but the visual depiction of their movement portrays them as moving at a finite speed, even accounting for things such as cinematic time?

I feel that such cases are important to discuss here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You would have to apply that to every other kind of speed feat as well, and we don't do that here. Nobody would have anything above FTE speeds if we did.

 

[Tago238]

Meh the wiki's definition of infinity isn't really the same as the one being described as a refutation here, like it's almost always treated as a well defined quantity. It has an end.

 

[Promestein]

I didn't really tell you to make this, I disagreed with a specific feat and then told you to do what you want.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If something has a physical limit then it isn't infinite. It's rather simple.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Meh the wiki's definition of infinity isn't really the same as the one being described as a refutation here, like it's almost always treated as a well defined quantity. It has an end.

Leaving aside grievances with the bollocks that is higher dimensional crap, if we're exclusively talking about one dimension here, and its stated to have an edge/end, then treating it as an infinite space there despite there being a clear contradiction right there in front of you just doesn't make sense, even using this site's weird logic. You can excuse multiverses for this, I suppose, due to there being infinite realities and such, but a single dimension? I believe for cases like that, there has to be somewhat of a stricter standard.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I didn't really tell you to make this, I disagreed with a specific feat and then told you to do what you want.

Oh uh
I interpreted that as permission to make this thread since the topic of making it was brought up previously, sorry :v

Anyways I think the issue here is that there's an obvious disconnect between how fiction commonly treats infinity vs how it should be treated in real life. As it stands now I'm opposed to applying real world logic to something that never had any basis in real world logic to begin with.

 

[Antvasima]

If something has a physical limit then it isn't infinite. It's rather simple.

Well, in DC Comics, the Source Wall surrounds the multiverse, despite that there is an infinite distance to get there, if I remember correctly.

 

[Malomtek]

You would have to apply that to every other kind of speed feat as well, and we don't do that here. Nobody would have anything above FTE speeds if we did.

If someone has extremely high but finite speed, they show visible or calculable feats for that. If someone has "immeasurable" speed, they show feats that are described in ways that simply cannot be explained in any other way than that character having literally incalculable speed, like arriving somewhere before they even started moving from their initial spot, or existing in two places at once with sheer speed.

If someone has infinite speed, there are several ways for a fiction to portray "infinite" speed, listed in this image here:

This could really only affect those who are currently listing as having "infinite" speed under our current system.

Well, in DC Comics, the Source Wall surrounds the multiverse, despite that there is an infinite distance to get there, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, but the Source Wall is pretty consistently depicted as an "pan-dimensional" realm that exists in all universes and worlds at once in DC.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Well, in DC Comics, the Source Wall surrounds the multiverse, despite that there is an infinite distance to get there, if I remember correctly.

The remote promethean galaxy is also stated to be the closest point to it within the main DC universe, which doesn't make sense, given their own logic that each universe is supposed to be infinite, but whatever. These comics writers don't have a clue sometimes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

From a purely mathematical perspective paths of infinite length can exist, but (within a metric) two points can never be an infinite distance away from each other.
So, traveling an infinite distance for infinite speed is plausible, but something infinite having an edge an infinite distance away from some point is technically not.

Filling something infinite up is plausible, though. It doesn't generally require an edge to exist. It can for example be accomplished as a supertask, although we would rather think in the mathematically very difficult to model principle of a constant infinite speed.

Anyway, mathematics aside, there is of course the question of whether we should care. Sure, an edge that is an infinite distance away doesn't really correspond to the usual mathematical idea of distance but it still has a clear intention to it.
Personally, I would say that such feats should receive high amounts of scepticism, but can be accepted still.

And speaking of high scepticism:

The protagonists of Imperishable Night flying to the end of Kaguya's infinite corridor (Touhou Project)

Ah yes, Kaguya's finite yet infinite corridor. Giving out infinite speed for that is like giving infinite speed for punching through Gojo's infinity. More likely that they overcame Kaguya's power than that they have utterly inconsistent infinite speed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not really the place to talk about specific verses but I'm gonna give my response here anyways. There's literally nothing in the text implying they used anything but movement speed. They fly for a while, are explicitly stated to have reached the end, and there is not a single piece of dialogue implying they 'overpowered' anything or used any specific hax. You would need evidence of either of those when the game both shows and tells us that the characters simply flew to the end, nothing more. If someone got out of Gojo's infinity through movement speed alone, then yeah, that's infinite speed, which is a lot closer to what the corridor feat is than "punching through infinity".

I think it's also worth noting that Promestein had similar questions about the feat and she admitted she didn't have anything to argue against once I provided scans so I really don't know what you're trying to accomplish here.

I am, however, glad that 'edge of infinity' feats seem like they'll remain in use, albeit treated with skepticism.

 

[Malomtek]

The remote promethean galaxy is also stated to be the closest point to it within the main DC universe, which doesn't make sense, given their own logic that each universe is supposed to be infinite, but whatever. These comics writers don't have a clue sometimes.

That can be rationalized as the Promethean Galaxy simply being infinitely father away from Earth than other galaxies, or being a part of "Source Wall space" or whatever.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

That can be rationalized as the Promethean Galaxy simply being infinitely father away from Earth than other galaxies, or being a part of "Source Wall space" or whatever.

You can't divide infinity, so they'll all be the same distance away from it. An infinite distance, making such an assertion entirely meaningless.

 

[Elizhaa]

I largely agree with DontTalkDT's points.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Likewise agree with DontTalkDT.

 

[KLOL506]

Ye, count me in with DT. Lighting up infinite-sized realms must require substantial amounts of evidence. But if the intent for the infinite-sized realm is clear and repeatedly hammered in multiple times, then there's no reason to assume otherwise and it should be acceptable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, good. Glad to have this clarified and out of the way. Should something be added to the speed page to clarify that edge of infinity feats should be treated with a higher degree of skepticism?

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, good. Glad to have this clarified and out of the way. Should something be added to the speed page to clarify that edge of infinity feats should be treated with a higher degree of skepticism?

I suppose so. I guess we can start asking DT to help out with the draft.

 

[Malomtek]

Ah yes, Kaguya's finite yet infinite corridor. Giving out infinite speed for that is like giving infinite speed for punching through Gojo's infinity. More likely that they overcame Kaguya's power than that they have utterly inconsistent infinite speed.

What about stuff like Marisa catching up to the Palanquin Ship that was traveling to the realm of Hokkai, situated in the corner of Makai, a realm of "infinite area"? This supposedly grants "infinite speed" as well, even though we see the characters visibly moving at finite speeds throughout the whole trip.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dude oh my god this is not the ******* thread for this bullshit

If DT has an issue with infinite speed Touhou, he'll make his own thread on it, or comment in the ongoing CRT. This thread is not about Touhou. DT shouldn't have brought it up to begin with if I'm being honest.

 

[KLOL506]

What about stuff like Marisa catching up to the Palanquin Ship that was traveling to the realm of Hokkai, situated in the corner of Makai, a realm of "infinite area"? This supposedly grants "infinite speed" as well, even though we see the characters visibly moving at finite speeds throughout the whole trip.

Dude. No.

Keep this out of here. Discuss it on a Touhou thread.

 

[Promestein]

My personal issue is that I feel people are a bit quick to slap on Infinite (or Immeasurable) in cases where the characters in question also consistently show finite speed feats that have attention drawn to them. I understand that not every Infinite / Immeasurable speed character is gonna always be depicted as such for story purposes, but I feel like, in these cases, with higher speed tiers, we should be more aware of lower speed feats and take them into account. Inconsistency should be taken much more seriously here; I'm inclined to agree with DT, but yes, this isn't a Touhou thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So long as this is in line with how other high speed tiers (FTL/MFTL+) are treated, I'm fine with this. I think a note should be made about the consistency rule only applying to characters when they're shown in situations where higher end speeds should apply (such as in a fight or when trying to catch up to another fast character/object), since I don't think more casual actions would have a reason to be performed at full speed.

 

[Promestein]

FTL through MFTL+ are completely different from Infinite/Immeasurable. Sure, we should still apply good standards to them and discount them if they're contradicted strongly enough, but I'd say it's much easier and more significant to contradict an Infinite or Immeasurable speed feat.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's fair, I can agree with that.

 

[KLOL506]

In any case, I guess all that's left to do is just make a draft and then have DT check it out before applying it.

Or would y'all be fine if DT made one instead, since he has more expertise making drafts for pages and whatnot?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

What the… I use arrows… Oh well. Either way, the point is there are discussions in the past regarding whatever qualifies for infinite speed or not especially since this was posted in a staff discussion

 

[HammerStrikes219]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/infinite-speed-guidelines.18739/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/infinite-speed-voids-and-consistency.13350/

Just to name a few.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, this is a common topic.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Oh, never mind. The speed page already have clarifications on the infinite and immeasurable speed part on the bottom.

Ignore the post by me above. Better yet, let me remove it real quick since it is unnecessary.

Edit: It is done.