Regarding Infinite Speed

[HammerStrikes219]

“Regarding Massively FTL+ Speed​

Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity. As such, MFTL+ characters need not be even remotely on a similar level of speed. In fact, the difference may be as great as the magnitude of difference between MFTL and regular human level.

In conclusion, one MFTL+ character can speed blitz another MFTL+ character, and assuming otherwise without a logical reason is fallacious.”

From the Speed page itself on the bottom.

In any case, I will stop replying now as I have nothing much to add aside from getting reminded of past discussions regarding infinite and immeasurable speed anyway.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah try not to ******* triplepost man

 

[Everything12]

Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity. As such, MFTL+ characters need not be even remotely on a similar level of speed. In fact, the difference may be as great as the magnitude of difference between MFTL and regular human level.

Well that's completely and utterly wrong.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Gotta change that too then, I get what it's trying to say but the way it's worded makes it sound like infinite speed is just the highest end of MFTL+.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well that's completely and utterly wrong.

And yet it is a possibility to being considered given we have that note added on the page.

Honestly I feel like we got logical contradictions at times, but that is my personal opinion.

It still wouldn’t shock me at all since infinite speed is in a weird place right now.

 

[KLOL506]

Well that's completely and utterly wrong.

I think they wanted to mean "to any higher finite number", kinda like 3-A.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Gotta change that too then, I get what it's trying to say but the way it's worded makes it sound like infinite speed is just the highest end of MFTL+.

I think it is thanks to the fact of specific scientific theories, it is possible to achieve infinity with faster than light speed or something like that.

Don’t remember which one though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in agreement with Promestein and DontTalkDT

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Can't uncountable infinities have a beginning and end? Like the set of all real numbers from 1 to 2, would start with 1 and end with 2. What comes after 1 and what comes before 2 would be undefined.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Can't uncountable infinities have a beginning and end? Like the set of all real numbers from 1 to 2, would start with 1 and end with 2. What comes after 1 and what comes before 2 would be undefined.

No as far as I am aware. You can make it a argument there is a beginning with no end.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with @DontTalkDT , much like the other staff members.

What, if anything, do you think that we need to change based on this thread?

 

[KLOL506]

I also agree with @DontTalkDT , much like the other staff members.

What, if anything, do you think that we need to change based on this thread?

Ehhh, add something regarding a little bit more scrutiny being needed for feats involving lighting up infinite-sized realms and whatnot and that they should be acceptable if the evidence and intent are sufficient and clear. At least, that's what DT expressed himself above in the comments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We should also update MFTL+'s description so people don't think infinite speed is just the highest possible end of MFTL+.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

We should also update MFTL+'s description so people don't think infinite speed is just the highest possible end of MFTL+.

You could remove the note as it isn’t in the description of MFTL+.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The note itself should stay, it just needs to be reworded to 'any higher finite number' like with 3-A on the AP page.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The note itself should stay, it just needs to be reworded to 'any higher finite number' like with 3-A on the AP page.

Alrighty.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

We should also update MFTL+'s description so people don't think infinite speed is just the highest possible end of MFTL+.

BUMP.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh huh, forgot this existed.

Yeah we still need to change MFTL+'s description from "Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity" to "Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to any higher finite number", or something along those lines.

Also, did anybody ever add the note about 'edge of infinity' feats being fine to use? A certain recent CRT has made this particularly relevant.

 

[KLOL506]

Ehhh, add something regarding a little bit more scrutiny being needed for feats involving lighting up infinite-sized realms and whatnot and that they should be acceptable if the evidence and intent are sufficient and clear. At least, that's what DT expressed himself above in the comments.

This do the job?

 

[KLOL506]

I'll just tag @DontTalkDT once more to see what the draft for the updates should look like.

And preferably keep Touhou out of this thread while we're at it, yeah? Keep that for the Touhou thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This do the job?

Works well enough for me if it extends to all feats people might find questionable, like the edge of infinity stuff.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This do the job?

Not sure if just adding "apply more scrutiny" will really help. Not that I know anything much better to add.
One could go into a little more detail on the subject of scrutiny, I guess. Maybe something like:

When evaluating speed feats resulting in infinite speed a high amount of scrutiny should be applied. Speed feats of this nature frequently turn out to be outliers and statements regarding infinity are prone to be hyperbole. One should also consider all plausible possibilities. If a character, for example, crosses an infinite distance created by an opponent's ability one could consider whether it isn't more plausible and consistent to assume that the ability was resisted or nullified instead.

 

[KLOL506]

Looks good. And what about already-existing realms stated to be infinite in size? Would that need any other details?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Looks good. And what about already-existing realms stated to be infinite in size? Would that need any other details?

I don't think so? Unless there is some example you want to have addressed.
I think infinite universes are pretty straightforward, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think so? Unless there is some example you want to have addressed.
I think infinite universes are pretty straightforward, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

Aight then. I got nothing else to add I suppose.

 

[KLOL506]

Also what about changing the MFTL+ definition to "from 1000x FTL to any higher finite number" instead of the current infinity it has? Are you fine with that @DontTalkDT?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also what about changing the MFTL+ definition to "from 1000x FTL to any higher finite number" instead of the current infinity it has? Are you fine with that @DontTalkDT?

Isn't the current definition just "1000x FTL+"?

 

[Antvasima]

See here: Speed

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah we still need to change MFTL+'s description from "Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity" to "Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to any higher finite number", or something along those lines.

This seems fine to me, but I would prefer to see what DontTalk thinks.

Also, did anybody ever add the note about 'edge of infinity' feats being fine to use? A certain recent CRT has made this particularly relevant.

Please elaborate. I do not remember this part well anymore.

 

[KLOL506]

Please elaborate. I do not remember this part well anymore.

It's this part

Ehhh, add something regarding a little bit more scrutiny being needed for feats involving lighting up infinite-sized realms and whatnot and that they should be acceptable if the evidence and intent are sufficient and clear. At least, that's what DT expressed himself above in the comments.

Which I asked again:

And what about already-existing realms stated to be infinite in size? Would that need any other details?

To which DT replied with the following:

I don't think so? Unless there is some example you want to have addressed.
I think infinite universes are pretty straightforward, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

 

[KLOL506]

Isn't the current definition just "1000x FTL+"?

About that...

Here it says: "Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity"

 

[Bobsican]

I'd just change "up to infinity" to "up to any higher finite value"

 

[KLOL506]

I'd just change "up to infinity" to "up to any higher finite value"

That's what I recommended first you sissy

But yeah basically this.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd just change "up to infinity" to "up to any higher finite value"

Yes, I also think that should be uncontroversial to apply.

 

[KLOL506]

Not sure if just adding "apply more scrutiny" will really help. Not that I know anything much better to add.
One could go into a little more detail on the subject of scrutiny, I guess. Maybe something like:

When evaluating speed feats resulting in infinite speed a high amount of scrutiny should be applied. Speed feats of this nature frequently turn out to be outliers and statements regarding infinity are prone to be hyperbole. One should also consider all plausible possibilities. If a character, for example, crosses an infinite distance created by an opponent's ability one could consider whether it isn't more plausible and consistent to assume that the ability was resisted or nullified instead.

This was DT's proposal for the Infinite speed stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

To me that makes good sense and seems fine to apply.

 

[KLOL506]

Not sure if just adding "apply more scrutiny" will really help. Not that I know anything much better to add.
One could go into a little more detail on the subject of scrutiny, I guess. Maybe something like:

When evaluating speed feats resulting in infinite speed a high amount of scrutiny should be applied. Speed feats of this nature frequently turn out to be outliers and statements regarding infinity are prone to be hyperbole. One should also consider all plausible possibilities. If a character, for example, crosses an infinite distance created by an opponent's ability one could consider whether it isn't more plausible and consistent to assume that the ability was resisted or nullified instead.

Bump. This never got applied.

And what about feats involving realms that are stated to be infinite in size and were already in existence, not having been created by any other entity but existing like an infinite-sized universe or somesuch? Based on DT's original statement:

Filling something infinite up is plausible, though. It doesn't generally require an edge to exist. It can for example be accomplished as a supertask, although we would rather think in the mathematically very difficult to model principle of a constant infinite speed.

Anyway, mathematics aside, there is of course the question of whether we should care. Sure, an edge that is an infinite distance away doesn't really correspond to the usual mathematical idea of distance but it still has a clear intention to it.

Personally, I would say that such feats should receive high amounts of scepticism, but can be accepted still.

I originally recommended this as a possible draft:

Lighting up infinite-sized realms must require substantial amounts of evidence. But if the intent for the infinite-sized realm is clear and repeatedly hammered in multiple times, then there's no reason to assume otherwise and it should be acceptable.

And then a shortened version of that here:

That they should be acceptable if the evidence and intent are sufficient and clear.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for bumping this thread, as it is important.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to apply the content in the following two posts please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4609330

https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4531855

 

[Swerzye29038]

BTW, there's a difference between something being "impossible in real life" and something being conceptually and logically contradictory in nature.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have slightly reformulated things to this:

When evaluating speed feats resulting in infinite speed a high amount of scrutiny should be applied. Speed feats of this nature frequently turn out to be [[Outlier]]s and statements regarding infinity are prone to be [[Hyperbole]]. One should consider whether it isn't more plausible and consistent to assume that the abilities creating infinite distance or zero time were [[Resistance|resisted]], circumvented or [[Power Nullification|nullified]] instead or if [[Teleportation]] or similar were employed. Filling or lightning up infinite-sized realms must require substantial amounts of evidence. But if the intent for the infinite-sized realm is clear and repeatedly hammered in multiple times, then there's no reason to assume otherwise and it should be acceptable.

and applied it.