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Regarding Certain Hax/Abilities

Well, my most Haxed character, Lady Nocturna (Whom I messed up the Rating for, for a long long time >.>) would get slapped by 99% of the characters on this website, one of my more recent characters, Somnus Patchouli who has Boundary Manipulation had to have restrictions because I would RP with both those characters, and I think that more or less benefitted the characters as a whole, I had to check myself and their powers so I wasn't seen as a Power Gamer (And trust me, compared to others, I was seen as Creative at best and Confusing and worst, I still cringe at a "War God" 600,000,000 years old, In World of Warcraft.)
 
I am not entirely sure what the main problems are here, but if it's about things like tier-2s having tier 1-A level hax, can't that be handled by just giving them reasonably exploitable weaknesses?
 
No, it's the abilities like Omnilock being given to anything below or similar abilities like: "Absolute Counter" that counters any ability and kills the owner of the countered ability. It's the lack of understanding for the Website and the problem is that people are plugging in rediculously OP abilities or giving their character Rediculous AP, Durability etc. Without thought. Such as the Tier 0 who claimed: "Made TOAA, Azathoth, The Writer and Kami Tenchi" or the 1-A (?) with Absolute counter, Totality Manipulation and immunity to literally all Hax in existence.
 
I think I'll shoot down a misconception before it's made. We're not telling you how to write your characters, because, it's your OC for a reason, however, there is conditions for a VS battle site. Expecting an understanding of the tiers and why they would be put there is a rather basic term and condition for the site. We also expect that abilities intentionally made to cause a character to be unbeatable or untouchable or un-haxable etc. are not made. Because then what is the point of making the profile on a VS BATTLE wiki if your character is unbeatable, the point of the website is not only to share your OC but to have them fight other OCs in a moderate setting without the: "My character solos all of fiction because that's how I've made them." And that's the standard the mods, Admins etc. Are trying to uphold, OCs get a badrap for being Edgy, OP or written poorly (See Coldsteel the Hedgehog for examples) so them wanting to keep out Characters who have "Omnilock" or "Absolute 'X' "or similar abilities because they have no place in a website made for them to fight other characters.
 
I can also agree with what Udlmaster said here. Although even though it DOES have the domain Wikia title of "FC/OC Vs Battles" due to it being a copy of VSBW but for OC's or FC's (Fan Characters), I still think personally that this wikia is primarily on Original/Fan Character creations but how it goes is up to anyone here.

Anyways in a Vs debate perspective, Uldmaster had laid out pretty much what I would have liked to hear/see here. People here CAN get OP powers but there should at least be something that wouldn't outright make them have a cheat button or something close to it. Not only does no one like having OP characters here, but also on what Udlmaster says on people don't like edgy characters of Mary Sues/Gary Stus or whatever else that really don't grind that many peoples gears right. I know I do for quite a number of those in the past (and i'm not just speaking towards anyone, it is LITERALLY in general) as do for others.

But I digress a bit on the creation bit on the actual topic here, which is what kinds of powers one creator gives to their characters and what should be like dealt with or, at least advised, on what not to do...or something. Basically, again, what Udlmaster pointed out here.
 
Exactly, it's not a mold, it's hardly even a guide line, it's really a recommendation. The only rule enforced is "Follow the Tiering system and give it a good enough reason for its Tier." Which shouldn't be that hard since you're the Author and Creator, you can edit freely. I've noticed people more so see Characters being listed higher then their feats or statements. I've noticed a Major one is Tier 2s, 1s & 0s. With them being made rather absent mindedly, and I agree with the Wiki telling people they need to think about what makes them their tier and why they should be that tier, and people are warned about their incorrect use of the tiering system (I'm no exception, I had completely mistiered my own characters, just that I noticed before a Mod or Admin did.). Tier 2, 1 and 0 characters aren't a joke but they've kinda become a joke, with them being host to people who don't quite understand the system yet making their character. And I understand the Wiki's enforcement of the rules because we don't want another Suggsverse, and lord knows how that's a running joke.
 
Udlmaster said:
Exactly, it's not a mold, it's hardly even a guide line, it's really a recommendation. The only rule enforced is "Follow the Tiering system and give it a good enough reason for its Tier." Which shouldn't be that hard since you're the Author and Creator, you can edit freely. I've noticed people more so see Characters being listed higher then their feats or statements. I've noticed a Major one is Tier 2s, 1s & 0s. With them being made rather absent mindedly, and I agree with the Wiki telling people they need to think about what makes them their tier and why they should be that tier, and people are warned about their incorrect use of the tiering system (I'm no exception, I had completely mistiered my own characters, just that I noticed before a Mod or Admin did.). Tier 2, 1 and 0 characters aren't a joke but they've kinda become a joke, with them being host to people who don't quite understand the system yet making their character. And I understand the Wiki's enforcement of the rules because we don't want another Suggsverse, and lord knows how that's a running joke.
Click to expand...
I notice people putting 1-A without even having a hint of getting what 1-A actually is. (I also get triggered when characters have a High 1-A key (or even regular 1-A) and a lower tiered key, such as SOME CERTAIN USER who makes a bunch of keys with just about the entire tiering system over tier 10 for almost no reason).

Also, people here also should know the power gaps in tiers 2-0 (0 should be really obvious) before saying a Low 1-B vs a 1-B isn't a stomp. (I havn't seen this, but I'm sure some people would say this)
 
@Drag: Trust me, we've had LOADS of cases with several users in the past then and even now from time to time in the present. I seriously truly wonder if people ever ******* reads the Tiering system BEFORE adding in the Tier 1 stat. It's a really grating sight to always see even now when anyone of us brings it up.

And that part might have happened a bit in the past but don't truly recall a thing about it.

Anyways, looking at this now, I don't really know where we left off on if we should actually make a rule about certain powers so if anyone can get around as to what the census is for that, that'd be good...if it's still going or just stopped by now, that is.
 
@Cross: They probably do, (because they actually know to put 1-A and Outerverse level on there), but they space out at like High 3-A or something.
 
And that is something that becomes a problem past 3-A and such. Case one user doesn't understand, someone in the commute here points it out, go through a process of trying to talk to the user on the stats, leads to either the user getting mad AF (happened more often the first few times) or they try to but fail or lose it and just give up halfway through somewhere.
 
For those reading, here's what I know about the Upper tiers (Also, when i say destroy, I also mean Create as well):

3-A - High 3-A: Universal in the present tense, you destroy all matter in the Universe and possibly end the timeline of the Universe, but do not destroy the timeline. High 3-A is the lowest form of 4-D.

Low 2-C: You can destroy the Universe and its entire Timeline on a 4-D Axis.

2-C: You can destroy 2-1000 Universes on a 4-D scale on a 5-D Axis. (Not on a 5-D Scale)

2-B: You can destroy a Multiverse which contains 1000-a countably Infinite amount of Universes.

2-A: Someone who can alter a countably infinite amount of 4-D continuums. This can be low 5-D

High 2-A: Usual Baseline 5-D being, someone who can destroy and Uncountably infinite amount of Space-Time continuums. Can destroy a 5-D continuum.

Low 1-C: 6 Dimensional beings lay here, they can destroy a countably infinite amount of 5-D continuums.

1-C: 7-9 Dimensional beings are here. An uncountable Infinite 5-D to 6-D continuums could be destroyed by a 7 dimesional being, repeat for 8 and 9.

High 1-C: 10 and 11-D Characters, Infinitely above 9-D beings.

Low 1-B: 12 Dimensional beings.

1-B: Beings who are 12+ Dimensional all the way up to a countable infinite dimesion.

High 1-B: An uncountly infinite dimensional being would be here.

1-A: Transending the very concepts of dimesions. Passively outside all reality and usually are the God tiers among their verses, High 1-Bs to 1-As and Above, should not be taken lightly and should be prone to scrutiny.

High 1-A: Characters who are Nigh-Omnipotent and have control over all Reality and all other beings but 1 Being that is above them. Additionally, High 1-A could be for a being who could potentially be Omnipotent but doesn't have enough evidence or is questionable if they are Omnipotent and not Questionable in the Normal Questionably Omnipotent.

0: Absolutely infinite and boundless, nothing is above them and everything is below them, there is no equal or "Shadow" version of these beings, these being are before all and will exceed all. They are absolute and cannot be "Absorbed" or replaced. There is only ever 1, Tier 0 being and they would have been around since the begining. A character cannot reach tier 0 and a character cannot obtain Tier 0, Tier 0 is already present before anything else. They are often the Creator Diety of a verse and are the absolutes of their entire Series or Francise.
 
A character *can* reach tier 0, tho.

They wouldn't be replacing anything, but yes they can. Featherine for one could have "merged" with the Creator og WTC if she didn't deliberately choose to remain on her scale.
 
Neo Mebius merges with my verse's tier 0; becoming tier 0 himself. So, you can technically become tier 0 if you weren't already one
 
Well that's at least true for Feat so there's that...

Although now are we like anymore on-topic or what is going on anymore at this point? @All
 
Not quite, you aren't the same person as before, not 100% anyway, you're a seperate being, for Example, Vegito is a seperate being from Goku and Vegeta, while being fusions, they aren't the same. Same applies. Also, I said Absorbed, not Merged, Absorbed implied involuntary, Merged is often voluntary. Also A Tier 0 Merging with something below still takes a Tier 0, meaning there was always that Tier 0. I.E It takes a Tier 0 to be Tier 0. And a Person cannot truely Reach Tier 0 without another Tier 0.

And if you're going to Bring up Azathoth being Sealed in the Shining Trapezohedron, that's Sealing not absorbing and Azathoth is asleep and not really Sentient.
 
Pal, you're still merging with it. A part of it. Becoming one with it.

Also I'm certain that somewhere, at some point in history, someone said "You can't make x character fly" until someone went there and did it.

Trying to keep quality in fiction is one thing I agree with.

Trying to say "X can't happen even if properly executed" is just trying to take someone else's verse and say "This can't happen", at which point we would be just restricting other people simply because we don't like an idea.

If we have an actual instance of such a thing being a possibility even in a professional work, ruling the possibility out is an obvious no. Granted, you'd need to write quite well to actually pull that off without making it suck.
 
As some people mentioned having a problem with high tiered characters who happen to have a big number of keys, I actually have to defend - or rather, explain - *my own* case on this, for once.

The only character I have who has that much of a tier, is very much needed for the continuity of my verses as a whole. Not just one. Literally every verse I conceive, its stablished existence helps me a lot when it comes to organizing the progression of the overall continuity of my multiple series. So, this character also has an entire gimmick around its human incarnation that results in that much of a tier variety. It happens to exist both as its unrestricted form and as a "model" of sorts, which it uses to better interact with other people and its world in general.

Now the unrestricted form is always at the height of its powers. The human manifestation has that variable tier for two reasons: One, she appears across literally every verse out there, and most of the time, due to the very plot, is not quite conscious of what she even is. Much like, say, Haruhi Suzumiya, this "human alter-ego" is unaware of the powers she can access most of the time and does it subconsciously.

How much of that power she channels and how it is activated tends to vary a lot from one verse to another. I actually made her profile considering every possible continuity I have in mind, as of right now and for the future of my works, as a whole.

Hence why I merged her incarnations across series and the True Nature key into a single profile, lest I'd be having redundant pages for something that is, ultimately, the exact same character just acting accordingly to the continuity she's currently at and the designs its higher self (which unlike her, is unchanging) has for her.

Naturally, rather than outright listing an ocean of keys on her profile, I separated it and left her with the Lowest human key, a "Varies" in the middle and the Highest for her True Self while trying my best to explain her in Blog Posts.

I do hope that is satisfactory for others who actually get annoyed at characters who have too many keys, which I never thought was a problem.
 
I don't have an issue with a ton of keys. If anything, it forces you to put at least some effort into the file and shows some type of progression and some type of story. Unless they are like 10+ 1-A keys......then we will have an issue.
 
I'll make that kind of verse.............. Meh, I'm just going to explain why they are anyway. Better satisfy the salty guys.........
 
Believe it or not, I don't think anyone here is salty, hence why I even explained myself when something that I did once was adressed.

From an aspiring writer's point of view, actually having another look at your work and question it is something I enjoy, since that always opens room for improvement, in my eyes.

...I avoid doing it myself most of the time, though, since it may result in a negative reaction from the other person, if they look at it that way.

While I always feel like I have a long way to go still, I do believe I got a lot better in some regards over the years, by talking with others about this kind of stuff.
 
Udlmaster said:
High 1-A: Characters who are Nigh-Omnipotent and have control over all Reality and all other beings but 1 Being that is above them. Additionally, High 1-A could be for a being who could potentially be Omnipotent but doesn't have enough evidence or is questionable if they are Omnipotent and not Questionable in the Normal Questionably Omnipotent.
Click to expand...
Apologies for the derailment, but being nigh-omnipotent doesn't warrant a tiering AFAIK
 
Although my argument for Tier 0 still stands, it takes a Tier 0 to be Tier 0. And to my knowledge, all tier 0s are Creator Deities, they're not beings who've become Tier 0 without the use of a Tier 0.

The example you gave was someone merging with a Tier 0 and becoming Tier 0, which like I said, takes a Tier 0. And Omnipotent beings are already "Merged" with said person, they're also inside that person and know everything about that person, they are that person and all of reality in one. It's Omnipotence, Merging with Omnipotence isn't going to do anything, you're still Omnipotent. And either way, there are no cases (From what I could find.) of there being no Tier 0 until a character reached that state.
 
Even the Blog Post with the rules of Tier 2, 1 and 0 around here mentions that a character can theoretically end up in that state of being, within the limits of certain contexts of their own verses.

Which I agree with - it's not *impossible*, it's just something very unlikely to happen in fiction, and even more unlikely to be properly executed while still qualifying for legitimacy.

We can agree on the point that it's impossible to simply power up to Tier 0. That would be stupid. As much as replacing a previous "Omnipotent" would be.

What I'm not agreeing with is that you seem to be outright trying to impose some "can't happen" rule to it as a whole unless your standards and views to it are met, when there can perfectly be a writer out there who works on the idea long enough to actually make it work in their owm continuity, and at that point it should be judged if it's legitimate, not denied as some impossible notion before it's even conceived.

No single writer rules fiction to that extent. It would be akin to trying to appropriate the rights of someone else's work.
 
Actually why am I debating this subject, I don't plan on even dealing with tier 0 anyways. Consider this my resign in this part of the discussion as it's ultimately irrelevant on my own end.

...That being said.

What are the changes suggested by this thread, again, if present?

I've seen removal of Omnilock, some rulings and/or guidelines for similar kinds of stuff and...?
 
Yes, yes, yes. That was basically what I was talking about. One cannot power up to Tier 0, I.E there will never be Tier 0 Goku (Except Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku (I'm joking)).

Nigh-Omnipotent is High 1-A, High 1-A cannot be used in Vs Debates, Even 1-A isn't looked upon lightly.

I think Omnilock should be removed as all Outerversal beings have Omnilock, so it a given and passive. Anyone below 1-A shouldn't really have it.
 
Oh yeah Totality Manipulation should be a banned Hax too.

As totality Manipulation is the user having the power to manipulate EVERYTHING.
 
My point: people are too obsessed with hax. It's the opposite of VSBW where people are quicker to argue AP. This "great divide" has strongly influenced even our best users here, you can tell by the Wiki's Strongest Thread where several characters on that list are just hax, hax, hax with no impressive AP whatsoever, but since they hax stomp everybody, they are the strongest. That completely goes against the term "strongest". Hax is meant to bypass strength. It is an alternative mean. People here would give a person all this hax just to kill a spider when all you have to do is stomp on it.

Lullabelle doesn't need hax to beat most 4-Bs here because she's already at the pinnacle of the tier through attack potency alone. But put her up against a baseline 4-B with ridiculous hax and all of a sudden she just loses, ignoring the hax she herself has and the fact that one hit would bop most these guys. It's complete headcanon as to how these fights work and proved people only care about winning debates and/or flaunting their characters by giving them loads of hax.

I'm not saying limit the amount of hax a character can have". It's not the character that needs to change, but the mindset of the creators of the characters.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
Cut
Click to expand...
I know what you mean but I at least find it refreshing to debat when people don't disregard them. This also makes it hard for me... the verse I have i made long ago and I'm trying to share it now. my characters had alot of hax and power because that's how it turned out not because I was trying to I fear if I bring them here I'll be called out on making OP for the sack of OP when I never intended to...
 
Oh, I understand you want new fresh hax, but that's not what we're worried about, we don't mind new hax, we do mind things like Totality Manipulation (The ability to manipulate anything.) or Omnilock (Exist outside all reality and cannot be affected by anything except other Omnilock beings.)
 
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