Regarding Asriel Dreemurr...

[KingPin0422]

1. Asriel was mentioned on here to be so fast that he appeared omnipresent compared to Frisk, who kept up with him despite him apparently having infinite 4-D speed.

This comes from him contacting Frisk before his creation, which I'm pretty sure would be impossible if Full-Power Asriel only had 4-D speed given that Frisk is 4-D in speed themselves, and I doubt one character could affect another character before they were even created without an explicit dimensional difference.

2. When Asriel used his full power, he had gained control over all aspects of existence. I vaguely remember this coming from Frisk being rendered helpless as Asriel tore them apart.

If this is true, then Asriel at his full power should logically transcend the multiverse, enough to be High 2-A. This is not like Omega Flowey, who merely destroyed the multiverse and fought Frisk afterwards, or Chara, who is simply outside of the multiverse. Asriel literally took control of everything and made it so that Frisk couldn't do anything but struggle helplessly.

 

[KingPin0422]

Bumping this, as it seems to have been buried.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

1. This is simply sending a message / affecting someone through space-time, it isn't anything impressive by Tier 2 standards

2. Controlling all aspects of existence is just really high-level Reality Warping (Also, where is this even shown / stated...?)

 

[Northern_Wind00]

I have questions about where Asriel's power level has landed on this wiki as well. Also -- he is fundamentally manipulating the rainbow background (which he absorbs into himself, becoming his wings) that existed even after he had purged all timelines from existance. That alone shows complete manipulation of concepts that transcend time and space at least on a level that we understand. at the very least he's capable of bending the stuff that exists beyond time and space to the point where he absorbs all of it into himself.

I would also have to argue that Chara having destroyed all timelines (as is canon) with Frisk still being able to move, think, make choices, etc. implies that Asriel has at least infinite mastery over concepts beyond those, as they are completely capable of stripping Frisk of the ability to even perform mental actions, such as Hoping and Dreaming, leaving them with only the ability to struggle. The rainbows in the background that he absorbs all of into himself clearly still exist once all points on every timeline (assuming Hyper Goner works the way this wiki says it does) are eradicated. Furthermore, even when those are completely absorbed into Asriel, the barrier exists beyond even those, and with the power of the equivelant of Seven Human SOULs, he's capable of even exerting the power to destroy a construct that at the very least exists two layers of reality above time and space at least as far as they exist in the concept of timelines. This, in my opinion, proves that he's capable of affecting (at the very least) six dimensional constructs of not insignificant scope. There's also an argument to be made that since you've left the concepts of time and space entirely after all timelines no longer exist, going beyond that has already left the concept of dimensionality behind -- and the Asriel fight goes several layers out from that.

This has been bugging me for some time, in fact. I've looked at the information in Undertale for quite some time now and I can say that there's at least reasonable evidence for both Frisk and The Barrier existing on a level that is well beyond 4D.

Edit; I understand this is a long read. It's also a little rambly. I apologize.

Edit2: cutting out a bit of unnecessary game mechanic-y information and refined it down a bit. Just a bit though.

 

[The_Everlasting]

You are grossly exaggerating a lot of things here.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Example?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're extrapolating a literal fancy background into conceptual manipulation on a 5-D scale.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

That fancy background is incorperated into the design of the god of hyperdeath form one for one in the wings. If they didn't DIRECTLY become a part of the character after surviving the end of all of time and space -- they wouldn't matter.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Also -- he is fundamentally manipulating the rainbow background (which he absorbs into himself, becoming his wings) that existed even after he had purged all timelines from existance. That alone shows complete manipulation of concepts that transcend time and space at least on a level that we understand. at the very least he's capable of bending the stuff that exists beyond time and space to the point where he absorbs all of it into himself."

Alternatively: He just absorbed this thing that existed after the destruction of THE timeline (Not all, just the).

"I would also have to argue that Chara having destroyed all timelines (as is canon) with Frisk still being able to move, think, make choices, etc. implies that Asriel has at least infinite mastery over concepts beyond those, as they are completely capable of stripping Frisk of the ability to even perform mental actions, such as Hoping and Dreaming, leaving them with only the ability to struggle."

First, at that point in the Genocide Run, Chara was talking to the Player, not Frisk. Second, you're pulling "infinite mastery over concepts beyond those" out of thin air. It's just Asriel, a being infinitely more powerful than Frisk, restricting their ability to move.

"Furthermore, even when those are completely absorbed into Asriel, the barrier exists beyond even those, and with the power of the equivelant of Seven Human SOULs, he's capable of even exerting the power to destroy a construct that at the very least exists two layers of reality above time and space at least as far as they exist in the concept of timelines."

Again, you're pulling this out of nowhere. There's a difference between still existing after something and transcending it.

"There's also an argument to be made that since you've left the concepts of time and space entirely after all timelines no longer exist, going beyond that has already left the concept of dimensionality behind -- and the Asriel fight goes several layers out from that."

No, there's no argument to be had with that. There's no layers or concept of dimensionality anywhere here.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

According to the way that Hyper Goner has been explained as far as I can tell on this wiki, the shapes it pulls in are timelines and the burst of light at the end collapsing is the absorption of all of them. This appears to have held up in several threads that I've seen.

If you'd like to correct that, Then very well.

By definition -- the ability to exist outside of space and time is not being bound to them. It's a step beyond by definition. I admit that the barrier existing beyond the rainbows is a bit of a stretch, but those rainbows are a tangible thing that formed an all encompassing background beyond the end of time and space -- and whatever it is, that all became a part of the wings of the final form.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Literally all Hyper Goner's description says is absorbing the timeline.

Uh, no? Existing outside of space and time doesn't mean you're unbound by it and transcending it on a dimensional level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No lol.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Would you care to explain how something can exist to a degree that it is completely unaffected by the removal of space and time and not be existing in a state that is beyond them? At the very least the absorbtion of the background behind space and time reads as a distinct and obvious visual shorthand for taking what is beyond it into yourself. All of it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You mean, literally every Tier 2 characters ever? You don't have to transcend something to be able to exist without it.

No it doesn't. At all. We have no idea what the hell that is. Assuming that it's everything beyond the timeline is nonsensical.

 

[The_Everlasting]

They just do? Not every Low 2-C character exists beyond space and time, Zen-Oh being the most notable example.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

As always, you guys have the final say. It's not nonsensical though, at least in my opinion. Especially considering that the removal of those rainbows renders Frisk into a state that Chara did not even upon destroying all possibilities of Undertale's game. Frisk could do more than struggle in Chara's black void of nothing, where no timelines existed to LOAD or RESET to. Frisk could not do that after Asriel absorbed those rainbows. Considering that it's extremely unlikely, given narrative context, that those came from Frisk internally, one must assume that there's something about those being absorbed that pushed Frisk to a point where they could only struggle.

But hey, it's cool if you guys don't agree. Don't call this nonsense though -- that's just rude. I didn't approach this without logic. The way the powerscaling for this argument works is layered.

Chara's affects on reality and the effects of those on Frisk vs the affects of Asriel's final form (which is queued by the absorbing of those rainbows into the form) and the effects of that on Frisk.

Even if you don't accept my argument, it is an argument with a logical foundation. It's not like it's complete nonsense. I've done my homework.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Frisk could do more than struggle in Chara's black void of nothing, where no timelines existed to LOAD or RESET to. Frisk could not do that after Asriel absorbed those rainbows."

That was the Player, not Frisk.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

That's debatable. Chara demands the SOUL, which is, as far as the game is concerned... a property of Frisk, not the player. Frisk is still, therefore, in control -- insomuch as they can be.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Especially considering that the removal of those rainbows renders Frisk into a state that Chara did not even upon destroying all possibilities of Undertale's game."

Why would you assume that literally all of this was caused by the rainbow disappearing? This is just Asriel preventing Frisk from moving, aka Power Nullification. Not...Asriel absorbing reality or something.

I'm sorry but such extreme extrapolation isn't logical in any way.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

@Saikou The Lewd King

http://nosimpleway.brontoforum.us/letsplay/ut/lput1033.png

They go from external

To internal

And the rainbows that were external before disappear from the background. And suddenly his projectiles are all made of far more intensely colored rainbows. and his final attack is spraying those very same rainbows at you.

I think that that's a solid case for the absorbtion of those into him being relevant.

EDIT: Hold on just a moment -- a more relevant answer is coming to the exact question. I realized I missed the point. I apologize.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

As for my understanding of those rainbows being used to represent the layer of reality with which Frisk can interact -- the answer is simple. SAVE. When they finally gain an action again, it's with those same Rainbows used to highlight the effect. Undertale is a game that makes meaningful use of color in all of its design. Each color has a meaning and those meanings are stuck to throughout. Rainbows are very likely included in this -- as it would be less expected for them not to be.

I'm getting tired of this, so I'll just say -- again, it's fine if you disagree with my arguments. I don't really take this wiki as a be-all-end-all anyway, but I do think Asriel in particular gets hampered by a lot of purposefully limited interpretations that aren't imposed on a lot of other characters I've seen. The evidence I presented is stronger than the case that stood for years that Bill Cipher was Tier 1 -- at the very least.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

They aren't. It's only a background effect, except much more fancier because it's the final boss. Anything more than that is speculation.

The reason why we have so many rainbows here is due to representing the Six Souls, among other things. It isn't due to Asriel absorbing reality or anything you claim. This is all just symbolic unless you have more concrete proof. Which there isn't.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

...Symbolism is enough for a lot of other characters. Not that that's all that I presented. I presented theming, general usage, an argument based on powerscaling, an argument based on visual design and composition (literally what it reads as what is happening), an argument based on the changing powerset's interaction with what has happened, an argument based on classically understood use of Asriel's abilities I've seen brought up on the wiki... I've presented a lot of different things here. Boiling it down to nothing but symbolism is rather reductionist of you.

I'm done arguing here. You've made your point. Neither of us is going to agree.

You're the one with the power here too -- which is what really counts.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

How is this less vague than Bill's feat? Being stronger than someone 11-D is far more straightforward than assuming that a background effect is the representation of the reality beyond space-time without anything resembling a proof of that.

Also, Asriel isn't being subject to "limited interpretations". If anything, our current ratings for the verse are the highest reasonable interpretation possible, considering that a vast majority of fans interpret Chara's feats as solely Low 2-C and that the stats given by the CHECK command aren't literal.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"...Symbolism is enough for a lot of other characters."

>Proceeds to provide no examples

 

[Northern_Wind00]

...I dunno what fan community's you've been a part of for undertale but the vast majority of everyone I've ever spoken to on the subject would argue that Asriel during the fight with him /is/ everything.

The community common consensus about the subject appears to be summed up in the line stated and reworded time and time again in various Undertale ost 71 "Undertale" lyrical covers, "I'll destroy the world you know until it's just us two, Do you think we might be friends if it's just me and you?"

--I am not saying fan sentiment counts as an argument here, obviously. I'm just expressing that there appears to be a wider divide on the topic than you or I seemed to think--

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Destroying the world" doesn't mean anything here, given that even by our interpretation that'd just be a 2-B feat.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Once again, that's just poetic. As I said, the way I've seen it consistantly interpretted is as Asriel being exactly as I stated. One with everything beyond reality. Such that nothing exists outside.

--Once again, I'm no longer arguing here. Just speaking from personal experience within the fandom.--