Red encounters another Champion

[TheGatememer]

Bored so why not.

Red is at the peak of Mt. Silver, when someone approaches him. However, this time, its a different champion that came to challenge him.

Battle Details​

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- Red vs Cynthia​

- Takes place on Mt. Silver​

- Red has his Gen 2 (HG/SS) Team​

- Cynthia has her Gen 4 (D/P) Team​

Red (4): Arceus0x, SlendVenny, LNZO19, LordTracer

Cynthia (1): Gilad_Hyperstar

Incon:

​

 

[SlendVeny]

Red is a challenge for a guy who's gone through two regions' worth of leagues. That's one of the top skill feats in the franchise.

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

That's a legitimately tough battle, though Red in this case has a level advantage. Generally half the pokemon can be pitted against each other here

Blastoise vs Gastrodon in which Blastoise wins via water attacks and ice attacks
Lapras vs Milotic in which the answer isn't fully conclusive as Milo has aqua ring and mirror coat which can definitely cause so problems for Lapras but the latter has paralyzing abilities which can be very problematic.
Venusaur vs Roserade which is hard to conclude but i think Roserade might just win cause he has shadow ball which can lower SD and thus let him have a very tough victory

now it comes down to the fun part

Snorlax, Pikachu and Charizard vs. Lucario, Garchomp and Spiritomb.

So in this matchup Charizard nukes Lucario, Pikachu gets nuked by Garchomp and the final battle is super interesting. Snorlax has attacks that can affect spiritomb and Spiritomb has attacks that can affect snorlax.

This comes down to who can win first.

Snorlax has the general tankiness and level advantage but Spiritomb has a 10% chance of boosting all of its stats using silver wind. This match i'll leave inconclusive at the moment.

So now we have a tally (1 is win, 0 is loss, - is incon)

Red: 1--10-
Cynthia: 0--01-

Red is winning.

Now let's think. It is also very worrying that Garchomp is still alive. It will take damage from iron tail but not nearly enough to lose. Charizard is a good candidate for a fight because Garchomp has 0 moves that are super effective against fire or flying types while Charizard has air slash and dragon pulse so that is probably another win for red. Roserade isn't an issue either. Blastoise can also be used against Garchomp.

So while Cynthia has her advantages she has a massive level disadvantage and has poor counters to Red's team in this matchup.

I am voting Red.

 

[TheGatememer]

Counted

 

[SlendVeny]

Red opens with Pikachu, Cynthia with Spiritomb. Pikachu has a Light ball, so a few good Volt Tackles should take out Spiritomb.

Gastrodon defeats Pikachu with minimal damage.

Venusaur oneshots Gastrodon.

Lucario defeats Venusaur.

Charizard beats Lucario.

Milotic beats Charizard.

Lapras beats Milotic.

Roserade beats Lapras.

Snorlax beats Roserade.

Garchomp beats Snorlax.

Blastoise beats Garchomp.

 

[TheGatememer]

Red opens with Pikachu, Cynthia with Spiritomb. Pikachu has a Light ball, so a few good Volt Tackles should take out Spiritomb.

Gastrodon defeats Pikachu with minimal damage.

Venusaur oneshots Gastrodon.

Lucario defeats Venusaur.

Charizard beats Lucario.

Milotic beats Charizard.

Lapras beats Milotic.

Roserade beats Lapras.

Snorlax beats Roserade.

Garchomp beats Snorlax.

Blastoise beats Garchomp.

Is that a vote for Red?

 

[TheGatememer]

Bump

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Considering levels are game mechanics: I'll look into their teams

Red has: Pikachu (with light ball), Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Lapras and Snorlax

Cynthia has: Spiritomb, Roserade, Lucario, Milotic, Gastrodon and Garchomp

Spoiler: Red VS Cynthia Battle

Pikachu starts against Spiritomb. Volt Tackle teals a ton of damage, but because of the big recoil damage from it, Spiritomb should be bulky enough to live a hit and revenge-ko it considering it has good defences and attack

Red will then likely send Snorlax, which is immune to ghost attacks and has good special defenses and will able able to KO Spiritomb

Cynthia in returns sends Lucario, whose typing walls anything Snorlax throw at it and KO it.

Red sends Charizard in, which can KO Lucario with its fire moves

Cynthia will send Gastrodon, which can easily tank Charizard's attacks and KO it in return with water or rock moves since it has Stone Edge.

Red will send Venusaur who can easily KO Gastrodon will 4 times effective Grass moves

Cynthia will send Roserade, which resist most of Venusaur's moves and has super effective Extrasenssory to overpower it

Red will send Lapras to defeat Roserade, but because it doesn't outspeed, it takes a lot of damage from super effective grass moves before being KO-ed by Blizzard

Cynthia will send Milotic next, which can wall the Lapras and defeat it with its moves and heal damage off with Aqua Ring

Red will be down to his last Pokémon left, Blastoise, who can likely score a win against Milotic, but due to Milotic's typing and defenses, this won't be easy for it, especially if it'd have to rely on low accurcy Focus Blast to do substancial damage

This will wear down Blastoise as Cynthia sends in her final Pokémon, Garchomp. Because Blastoise will be weakened from the fight against Milotic, this will leave it in a position for Garchomp to finish off Blastoise with Earthquake or Dragon Rush, concluding the match with Cynthia as the winner

TLDR, Cynthia wins high-difficulty. Because it's her DP team, it's a bit easier for Red to face compared to her later teams

 

[Arceus0x]

I don't quite agree as we have to consider the fact that they're unbound by game mechanics and will thus use their pokemon differently and not by the same turns as in game.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't quite agree as we have to consider the fact that they're unbound by game mechanics and will thus use their pokemon differently and not by the same turns as in game.

Still, that wouldn't change all that much. Pokémon that are faster in the game are also portrayed as faster in the anime too

The fight should still be similar, but Cynthia having a more versatile team compared to Red will give her the slight advantage to score a win, though it would be high-difficulty with her DP team

 

[TheGatememer]

Just a small note, Pikachu OHKOs Spiritomb with Volt Tackle even with a -Atk Nature assuming Spiritomb doesn't have a +Def Nature.

Also, vote counted

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll retain my vote as in my opinion Cynthia's versatility is useless. Her ace Garchomp, her Lucario and her Roserade all get bodied by Red's over leveled Charizard. The rest of her team just falls to other mons

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't quite agree as we have to consider the fact that they're unbound by game mechanics and will thus use their pokemon differently and not by the same turns as in game.

Still, that wouldn't change all that much. Pokémon that are faster in the game are also portrayed as faster in the anime too

The fight should still be similar, but Cynthia having a more versatile team compared to Red will give her the slight advantage to score a win, though it would be high-difficulty with her DP team

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'll retain my vote as in my opinion Cynthia's versatility is useless. Her ace Garchomp, her Lucario and her Roserade all get bodied by Red's over leveled Charizard. The rest of her team just falls to other mons

Levels are game mechanics though. Why you argue about levels if you say to ignore game mechanics

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Just a small note, Pikachu OHKOs Spiritomb with Volt Tackle even with a -Atk Nature assuming Spiritomb doesn't have a +Def Nature.

Also, vote counted

Is it with EVs though? Red has no EVs and Cynthia has perfect IVs

Just checked, and it doesn't since levels are game mechanics and otherwise Pikachu doesn't kill with a single Volt Tackle

 

[TheGatememer]

Is it with EVs though? Red has no EVs and Cynthia has perfect IVs

Just checked, and it doesn't since levels are game mechanics and otherwise Pikachu doesn't kill with a single Volt Tackle

If Pikachu doesn’t have a -Atk Nature, yes.

iirc, levels are canon as they have been brought up numerous times in canon

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If Pikachu doesn’t have a -Atk Nature, yes

Red and Cynthia doesn't have EVs though on their teams (for Cynthia, at least here)

So even +Atk nature Pikachu doesn't kill without a crit with no EVs

iirc, levels are canon as they have been brought up numerous times in canon

Such as? And usually in the lore, levels are not really considered in the story, if mentioned at all. They mention stuff like strength, power, skill etc. , but not the levels specufically since it's more of a game mechanic

 

[TheGatememer]

Red and Cynthia doesn't have EVs though on their teams (for Cynthia, at least here)

So even +Atk nature Pikachu doesn't kill without a crit with no EVs

Such as? And usually in the lore, levels are not really considered in the story, if mentioned at all. They mention stuff like strength, power, skill etc. , but not the levels specufically since it's more of a game mechanic

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Level

Look at the examples here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Level

Look at the examples here.

In the games they just explain the game mechanics regarding levels, and nothing else. Other canons don't matter to there because it's their game versions who fight

 

[Arceus0x]

if we go by without game mechanics then this matchup is impossible from the beginning as Cal's character scaling CRT should've gone through a ton of time ago and Red should have been 5-B and Cynthia 2-B/2-A

 

[TheGatememer]

if we go by without game mechanics then this matchup is impossible from the beginning as Cal's character scaling CRT should've gone through a ton of time ago and Red should have been 5-B and Cynthia 2-B/2-A

Eh, mostly made this cause I was bored, thought I would make it before it was applied

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

if we go by without game mechanics then this matchup is impossible from the beginning as Cal's character scaling CRT should've gone through a ton of time ago and Red should have been 5-B and Cynthia 2-B/2-A

Yeah. Though with game mechanics Red stomps Cynthia with his sheer level advantage

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah. Though with game mechanics Red stomps Cynthia with his sheer level advantage

training gives you higher levels so this means that Red in GS is just better trained than Cynthia and thus he bodies her in this fight

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

training gives you higher levels so this means that Red in GS is just better trained than Cynthia and thus he bodies her in this fight

Again, levels are game mechanics. Without levels, Cynthia takes this with her superior team composition

Red only wins if we apply game mechanics since he's higher level

 

[Arceus0x]

Again, levels are game mechanics. Without levels, Cynthia takes this with her superior team composition

Red only wins if we apply game mechanics since he's higher level

except these game mechanics would apply here. We literally use levels in our match rules, those being that we use wild pokemon who have perfect EVs and IVs as well as lvl 100. In games badges dictate what level pokemon will obey you as well. In character matches we use levels that are canonical, in this case the best level for Cynthia being lvl 67 while Red outclasses with lvl 80+

 

[TheGatememer]

Levels are also mentioned by gym leaders I think, after you obtain a badge

 

[Arceus0x]

Levels are also mentioned by gym leaders I think, after you obtain a badge

yeah exactly, levels matter when it comes to games and manga. Only anime, pokken and MD have their levels as non-canon or at least completely irrelevant in anime's case where it was mentioned once, at best twice in the span of its thousand+ episodes.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Levels are also mentioned by gym leaders I think, after you obtain a badge

This is to explain game mechanic of disobedience. This doesn't mean that the levels themselves are canon in the lore

Again, all game examples just referrence the game mechanics

except these game mechanics would apply here. We literally use levels in our match rules, those being that we use wild pokemon who have perfect EVs and IVs as well as lvl 100. In games badges dictate what level pokemon will obey you as well. In character matches we use levels that are canonical, in this case the best level for Cynthia being lvl 67 while Red outclasses with lvl 80+

Do we have a rule for that? I'm pretty sure the profiles for the characters are based off the lore rather than the game mechanics though, since not doing so will let scenario like a Lv. 1 FEAR Rattata defeating 2-A Avatar Arceus because of this. I think it's pretty self-explanetory why there is a problem when you only scale based on game mechanics such as levels

 

[Arceus0x]

This is to explain game mechanic of disobedience. This doesn't mean that the levels themselves are canon in the lore

Again, all game examples just referrence the game mechanics

Do we have a rule for that? I'm pretty sure the profiles for the characters are based off the lore rather than the game mechanics though, since not doing so will let scenario like a Lv. 1 FEAR Rattata defeating 2-A Avatar Arceus because of this. I think it's pretty self-explanetory why there is a problem when you only scale based on game mechanics such as levels

look mate, if we're going by lore even ignoring the tiers that should've been applied a while ago, Red has more experience than Cynthia since he not only became the champion but also went on to train even further. All we know about Cynthia is she was the champion for some time, meanwhile Red beat a champion and then went on to train further only to give another champion one hell of a fight.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

look mate, if we're going by lore even ignoring the tiers that should've been applied a while ago, Red has more experience than Cynthia since he not only became the champion but also went on to train even further. All we know about Cynthia is she was the champion for some time, meanwhile Red beat a champion and then went on to train further only to give another champion one hell of a fight.

That's debatable. Not all Champions are the same level of power and experience, since they're the strongest only in their respective regions

So Red being > Blue doesn't mean anything regarding Cynthia. We also don't know how the fight between Red and Ethan went in canon, as the battle is never referenced anywhere else, so in story we don't know what the result was

 

[SlendVeny]

That's debatable. Not all Champions are the same level of power and experience, since they're the strongest only in their respective regions

So Red being > Blue doesn't mean anything regarding Cynthia. We also don't know how the fight between Red and Ethan went in canon, as the battle is never referenced anywhere else, so in story we don't know what the result was

I mean, Red is comparable to Ethan > Lance(2nd) > elite 4(2nd) > Blue > all other Kanto leaders > Lance(1st).

 

[LNZO19]

I mean Cynthia has the better team, but Red has a huge skill/experience advantage imo.
He cleared out two regions, comparable to Ethan, and is superior to Lance and Blue at their peaks. I mean the dude trains where the top trainers fear to traverse and him being higher level means that he's trained far more than Cynthia as was mentioned.

I pick red FRA unless something for Cynthia comes up.

 

[LordTracer]

Red FRA

 

[King_Clab]

Cynthia FRA

Red does have a experience advantage, but Cynthia has Everything else going for her.