Red Dead Redemption: Eagle-Eye & Dead-Eye.

[LordGinSama]

Prove that your sources are 100% accurate and valid. It is not my place to prove a negative, it is yours to prove the positive.

This is already easily down via virtue of it being made by Rockstar, after the game came out to expand upon the verse, characters and abilities that weren't addressed properly in the game.


You don't need to explain how the burden of proof works, I'm not 5 and it's not I haven't been doing that already.

That is literally exactly what is happening here, so yes, I will use it as it applies to this case in particular.

Not really, Mario and Rdrd2 are two different verses, with a much different context. Whatever happened with the Mario shit can be kept to itself.

I am questioning your sources and you are still using them as a shield.

My sources are from Rockstar. The people that made the game. Are you questioning the people that spent years making the game and databook that exists solely to explain shit to you?

I don't know about you, but I see a problem with this defense.

So you don't see the issue with questioning official sources material made by the game creators?

And furthermore, after looking into the book itself, this was not published by Rockstar.

Rockstar and Piggyback Ride made it.

It is a book from Piggyback which is, and I quote, "compiled and crafted in association with Rockstar Games."

Association with Rockstar, Rockstar worked on it with them so that's a moot point and your contradicting yourself.

Meaning that, while they had a hand in overseeing it, they did not make the book, which brings the validity of the statements made within into question.

They both made the book and it was literally Rockstar that published it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

https://i.ibb.co/nkx4vy6/N23jLVf.png

If this doesn't count as an in-game statement, then you might as well make a site-wide CRT that disallows statements like these in games.

Yeah, that's good enough for me. I can fully agree now.

 

[Dalesean027]

https://i.ibb.co/nkx4vy6/N23jLVf.png

If this doesn't count as an in-game statement, then you might as well make a site-wide CRT that disallows statements like these in games.

I think moreso what's being asked for tho is like in lore like dialogue tho? As this can be seen as the game explaining its gameplay mechanics in the game, I believe?


Edit: nvm Lephyr just wanted that

 

[Starter_Pack]

I think moreso what's being asked for tho is like in lore like dialogue tho? As this can be seen as the game explaining its gameplay mechanics in the game, I believe?

Literally what I was going to say.

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally on the site Piggyback states this in the about us section.


We work hand-in-hand with the best game studios in the world, which ensures our guides are 100% complete – offering hidden game parameters, developer insights, hi-res maps, official concept art – and a simultaneous release with the game.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think moreso what's being asked for tho is like in lore like dialogue tho? As this can be seen as the game explaining its gameplay mechanics in the game, I believe?

That would be where the guidebook comes in to expand that and make it more firm. That is completely acceptable under our canonicity standards.

 

[KLOL506]

Enhanced Senses and ESP stuff is mostly covered here.

Charles tells him to focus and then the game itself gives snippets of how Eagle Eye works.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm really not seeing the difficulty here. The Game was made years before the Databook, in the game it wasn't explained in dialog. Years later they make a Databook for said explanations.


They made the Databook to explain what wasn't in the game. Again not see how this is hard to understand tbh.

 

[Dalesean027]

That would be where the guidebook comes in to expand that and make it more firm. That is completely acceptable under our canonicity standards.

Oh no I'm not arguing against that, I believe what starter is saying tho is that the guide is still explaining the gameplay mechanics of it not the in universe lore of it.


Like legit he just wants at least one cutscene or instance its brought up in any form of character dialogue in the game

 

[Dalesean027]

Enhanced Senses and ESP stuff is mostly covered here.

Charles tells him to focus and then the game itself gives snippets of how Eagle Eye works.

This yeah this kinda thing

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Like legit he just wants at least one cutscene or instance its brought up in any form of character dialogue in the game

To me, that shouldn't always be strictly necessary. Specially in a game medium. Different standards for acceptable evidence I suppose.

 

[KLOL506]

The stuff is already in the game, the guidebook just seems to elaborate more on it in the black background-white text sections that pop up to tell you how to use certain abilities. That's perfectly fine and well within our rules on canonicity.

Oh no I'm not arguing against that, I believe what starter is saying tho is that the guide is still explaining the gameplay mechanics of it not the in universe lore of it.


Like legit he just wants at least one cutscene or instance its brought up in any form of character dialogue in the game

A game telling you how to use a certain ability during a tutorial would absolutely count as in-universe lore. Dialogues aren't the only way to confirm canonicity, you know.

All that matters is that the game acknowledges it exists. How it acknowledges it shouldn't matter.

 

[Dalesean027]

To me, that shouldn't always be strictly necessary. Specially in a game medium. Different standards for acceptable evidence I suppose.

For games yeah different standards for some in game abilities as some can just be from the gameplay mechanics and aren't present in lore, I've indexed enough games to know but I think what KLOL sent is fine


Klol I've literally said the exact kinda thing you sent works dude, I literally said I think that's what exactly what he wanted

 

[LordGinSama]

The stuff is already in the game, the guidebook just seems to elaborate more on it in the black background-white text sections that pop up to tell you how to use certain abilities. That's perfectly fine and well within our rules on canonicity.


A game telling you how to use a certain ability during a tutorial would absolutely count as in-universe lore. Dialogues aren't the only way to confirm canonicity, you know.

All that matters is that the game acknowledges it exists. How it acknowledges it shouldn't matter.

Especially whenever it goes out of it's way to explain time has specially slowed down.

 

[Dalesean027]

The stuff is already in the game, the guidebook just seems to elaborate more on it in the black background-white text sections that pop up to tell you how to use certain abilities. That's perfectly fine and well within our rules on canonicity.


A game telling you how to use a certain ability during a tutorial would absolutely count as in-universe lore. Dialogues aren't the only way to confirm canonicity, you know.

All that matters is that the game acknowledges it exists. How it acknowledges it shouldn't matter.

This yeah this kinda thing

geez this sure was me arguing against that dialogue working and I surely didn't say the same thing that any kind of dialogue works and what I think he was looking for

 

[LordGinSama]

Might as well remove half of the user's with time manipulation bc it's never a 10+ cut scene that explains it fully.

 

[Starter_Pack]

KLOL's thing definitely works for me, I can approve Enhanced Senses due to that.

As for Time Slow, I still do not like how it is being shelled out as it still doesn't do a good job explicitly stating it's straight up time manipulation rather than a gameplay effect, but through the standards set for canonicity, the fact it's there at all does give far more credence than before.

I'll switch my stance on that subject to Neutral. I still can't agree personally, but I don't really see a reason why it cannot be considered as such anymore since my concerns have more or less been addressed, even if it wasn’t to my satisfaction.

 

[LordGinSama]

Like if it's that much of a problem just use the Guidebook as extra supportive evidence with the game stuff being the primary reference. However I still prefer the Guidebook being the main thing due to them explaining Dead-Eye more thoroughly than the game.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Like if it's that much of a problem just use the Guidebook as extra supportive evidence with the game stuff being the primary reference.

That is literally what Guidebooks are supposed to be used for, but okay.

 

[Dalesean027]

Might as well remove half of the user's with time manipulation bc it's never a 10+ cut scene that explains it fully.

Nah that's not what he was saying, games sometimes need more evidence for stuff in lore its a wholly different thing from the mediums you're thinking of.


It'd be like in cyberpunk if someone just used superspeed in gameplay without any cybernetics that are required to do so for a section of a mission and its never mentioned in lore or dialogue and was just done for that occasion in the gameplay itself, if it appeared like the usual slow time effect randomly I probably wouldn't give them slow time or whatever for that, that'd be crazy.


That said this is fine

 

[LordGinSama]

That is literally what Guidebooks are supposed to be used for, but okay.

That was the point. In the OP I use scans from the game and the Databook. Not sure if you missed that or not, but the in game statement KLOL posted is taken from the OP.

I obviously wouldn't make a CRT without shit from the game. As I mentioned, the Guidebook just explains it further.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

KLOL's thing definitely works for me, I can approve Enhanced Senses due to that.

As for Time Slow, I still do not like how it is being shelled out as it still doesn't do a good job explicitly stating it's straight up time manipulation rather than a gameplay effect, but through the standards set for canonicity, the fact it's there at all does give far more credence than before.

I'll switch my stance on that subject to Neutral. I still can't agree personally, but I don't really see a reason why it cannot be considered as such anymore since my concerns have more or less been addressed, even if it wasn’t to my satisfaction.

Thank you. Really.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I mostly had a problem due to the source being seemingly dubious, but I have seen enough to at least abate my concerns for the most part.

 

[LordGinSama]

Fair enough can't expect everyone to agree to something at first.

 

[Dalesean027]

@LordGinSama you'll kinda need to tackle the new speed ratings in this thread tho because we effectively can't list any deadeye stuff on the speed sections now and since the arguments are now settled for everything else the points about the speed stuff I brought should be addressed so we can adjust to statistics accordingly when its time to apply.

If you can get a clip of Arthur or John weaving a shot while on horseback or something and not using deadeye we can use that because right now aside from attack speed not a single speed justification works

 

[Dalesean027]

Got clips of this because most of said justifications I've seen are flatout false.

"Should easily be faster than Benjamin Lazarus, a magician who can catch real bullets with his teeth"

For one Arthur quite literally has no reason to scale to benjamin lazarus and is in shock by his ability to catch a bullet in his mouth, moreso also on this is the fact that this is still something that requires prep from Lazarus to do as if he's shot anywhere else he can't even react and actually takes a shot with the stage having to be closed. Outside of that we quite literally have nothing scaling them to each other which isn't even anything itself





John Marston is touted with apparently outpacing revolver rounds and I can say the clip speaks for itself


I myself was working on some deadeye calcs and tbh he only slows down anything to like subsonic speeds as the bullets are still waaay faster than him.


Also Arthur needs average or athletic human travel speed specified because he doesn't travel at these high speeds.

Sir these would need calcs and dodging gunfire from long range will yield subsonic regardless so the speed value is going to have to change since there's no real feats of anyone remotely outpacing gunfire

Lazarus is a minor character you don't even interact with outside of his shows , there's quite literally no way to say Arthur can just randomly scale for any reason.

Otherwise it'd still also be a low subsonic feat for lazarus and sure you could calc it but it'd still have to be noted its still with prep and he isn't even normally that fast and can't react to being shot anywhere else as shown above.

Bumping what I said prior to make it easier

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama you'll kinda need to tackle the new speed ratings in this thread tho because we effectively can't list any deadeye stuff on the speed sections now and since the arguments are now settled for everything else the points about the speed stuff I brought should be addressed so we can adjust to statistics accordingly when its time to apply.

Or I can make a new CRT to handle the speed. That'd probably be better and I can make it in a few minutes. Only issue being is that we don't have any calculations for the speed feats in the profile.

Honestly in terms of stats the profiles are dogshit.

If you can get a clip of Arthur or John weaving a shot while on horseback or something and not using deadeye we can use that

I'll try finding some sure.

 

[Dalesean027]

Or I can make a new CRT to handle the speed. That'd probably be better and I can make it in a few minutes. Only issue being is that we don't have any calculations for the speed feats in the profile

Sure a continuation thread for speed would be fine as well, be sure to link it here when its made. You can use the points I brought up above to address the problems with the current speed ratings in the OP and just work to find feats to calculate there

 

[LordGinSama]

Sure a continuation thread for speed would be fine as well, be sure to link it here when its made. You can use the points I brought up above to address the problems with the current speed ratings in the OP and just work to find feats to calculate there

Question do you have the horse bullet dodging feat? Can't find it atm. I've got others though.

 

[Dalesean027]

Question do you have the horse bullet dodging feat? Can't find it atm. I've got others though.

If you've got others those don't matter, I said those because that's what was suggested to get earlier.

Mind sending what you've found so far?

 

[LordGinSama]

If you've got others those don't matter, I said those because that's what was suggested to get earlier.

Mind sending what you've found so far?

Arthur's Quickdraw feats (Non Dead-Eye ones found here.)

Arthur saving The Reverend from a train at close range.


There's also him outrunning bullets in the Gurama chapter but I don't have the time to review hours of gameplay atm.

 

[Dalesean027]

Arthur's Quickdraw feats (Non Dead-Eye ones found here.)

These will probably be peak human level draws

Arthur saving The Reverend from a train at close range.

This isn't very good either as its a kinda near miss from far away where people have done the same kinda things irl

There's also him outrunning bullets in the Gurama chapter but I don't have the time to review hours of gameplay atm.

Outpacing or just dodging because there's a big difference there and outpacing is kinda a big jump and would now be kinda outliery, any footage where arthur can be seen ducking direct gunfire after its shot and is headed directly for him should be good enough (not anything like he's just running or diving while guns are shooting around him, but like its directly for him)

 

[LordGinSama]

Eh I'm not really worried about the yields as much as I am about them being calculated. They can be below human level as far as I'm worried.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Regarding guidebooks; they are secondary canon. But secondary canon is usable if the primary canon aka the games basically give us little to nothing on how it works. But at the same time, context is indeed important and statements about "Time slowing down" could just be messages for the player to use to their advantage rather than lore about John being capable of time deceleration magic.

I don't consider myself the biggest RDR expert, but I do at least know some of the basics for what type of setting it is and what not. But I think the abilities he can have are Marksmanship and Superhuman Precision for sure. There are clearly superhuman reflexes that are consistent. But I'm not sure about giving Time Manipulation for reasons to consider.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Can someone bring me up to speed on what's being proposed, what is up in the air, etc?

 

[LordGinSama]

Can someone bring me up to speed on what's being proposed, what is up in the air, etc?

Well you see, the government is ran by reptile men and crab people. They've manipulated the views of the mass population to fulfill their agenda.

But unfortunately for them I have my trusty tin foil hat.

 

[Dalesean027]

Can someone bring me up to speed on what's being proposed, what is up in the air, etc?

I believe ESP, limited X-ray vision, more justifications for enhanced senses, superhuman precision, and Time manipulation are all of what was proposed in the OP.

The original justifications should all have been altered so I believe what's in the OP are what's being stuck with.

Whether or not Deadeye is just enhanced senses but gameplay wise is just functionally time manip is what's indecisive


Some agree its outright time manipulation others don't

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gotcha. Aim assist was mentioned somewhere, so I have concerns regarding people taking aim assist as a legitimate feat rather than a game mechanic. That said, I am aware of this series and Dead Eye being legit, so I was wondering if I had received faulty intel or not.

I'll take a deeper look through the OP if its being properly updated, and will respond shortly.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

About Dead Eye being considered slowing of literal time, it's very doubtful that this is actually the case as the ability it's something that can be activated and recharged in general by using strong alcohol, oil snake, tobacco (specifically chewing tobacco) or medicine made with normal plants, and unless those things possess some magical properties in RDR world that grant time powers (which would thus mean that everyone and their mother can affect time in RDR world), then it's far more logical to assume that Dead Eye don't affect the literal time of the surroundings and instead it's just the self-perception of the user, as things that affect the cognition of the user and his physical state end interacting with the ability. This can also be supported by the fact that while using Dead Eye the user gets special senses (like the weak points vision), as well as the fact that other similar ability that like Eagle Eye it's also completely sense related and they also slow the gameplay.

Another thing that can support the idea that it's just the self-perception of the user that gets affected it's the fact that most Rockstar games tend to possess abilities that affect the user perception with the objetive to facilitate the player capacity to accomplish certain things and improve their experience, like in GTA V where you can see stuff in slow motion while driving, shooting or even punching, things that are never acknowledged as the protagonist having time powers or anything like that, they are explicitly acknowledged as the protagonist just being skilled at certain things, similar to RDR2 protagonist being skilled at shooting and quick drawing.

 

[Dalesean027]

Gotcha. Aim assist was mentioned somewhere, so I have concerns regarding people taking aim assist as a legitimate feat rather than a game mechanic. That said, I am aware of this series and Dead Eye being legit, so I was wondering if I had received faulty intel or not.

I'll take a deeper look through the OP if its being properly updated, and will respond shortly.

The aim assist bit was sorted and removed now, that's what the first 3 pages were

As far as the deadeye bit goes its just whether we would considering it an in universe showing of enhanced sense or outright time manipulation