Record of Ragnarok | Upgrading the Gods

[LordGinSama]

I would love to buy I'll be honest, I have no idea how to start a private convo on the wiki. I'm still kidna new to this whole place

Click on a user's icon and it should pop up with two options. Left hand side should be "follow." While the right hand side should pop as "start conversation."

 

[DavidTPPM]

Click on a user's icon and it should pop up with two options. Left hand side should be "follow." While the right hand side should pop as "start conversation."

Not for me

I guess the platform doesn't like me (or doesn't work properly on mobile)

 

[PrinceofPein]

"World serpent" is pretty self explanatory regarding it's size.

Not exactly, there are still many assumptions. Lets talk about the width or better still let us talk about it's durability or let's talk about how it was killed e.t.c. literally nothing is known. The only way the calc works, is if the serpent was totally pulverized in its entirety, where there are many assumptions as to how it can be killed.

 

[LordGinSama]

Not exactly, there are still many assumptions. Lets talk about the width.

KT found width via scaling to IRL snakes.

or better still let us talk about it's durability.

It has the same durability no matter the size. It's a snake made of tissue, not stone. Calculations like this doesn't need a set level of durability. It's just the size of it, it's thicker but doesn't change the durability of its flesh unless stated to be more durable than flesh. Durability is found from the force generated of being that size, Durability would scale to the force it can generate from being that size otherwise it'd collapse on itself.

or let's talk about how it was killed e.t.c.

Via a special move that Thor used before on Lu-Bu.

literally nothing is known. The only way the calc works, is if the serpent was totally pulverized in its entirety, where there are many assumptions as to how it can be killed.

That's not how Calculations work Pain. Pulverizing the snake would yield vastly higher than 5-A given it's size. Attacks anywhere could be fatal. Thor's Hammer wasn't even Awakened at that point when he killed the serpent. 5-A comes from it's GPE / KE not it being Pulverized. Such level of destruction isn't needed, going by your logic Zoro cutting Pica isn't valid since Zoro is smaller than Pica and didn't turn him into dust.

 

[PowerToScale]

I think the issue here is that we are assuming the world serpent, actually surrounds the entire world via its association to mythology. However, not all fictional series treat the world serpent as being that big, with also no direct statement of its size in the series (to my knowledge) either it only leaves it up to subjective interoperations. as mentioned before I will say a possible rating or wait for more information to be given first.

 

[RanaProGamer]

From the arguments I've seen from you guys, I think Possibly 5-A works until we get proper confirmation of it with hopefully the Loki or Odin fight (cuz god knows when that fight will happen, or might be the last 2 fights for all we know)

 

[Damage3245]

"5-B, possibly 5-A" seems like it will work.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Chapter 85 mentioned Primordial Gods, this is getting interesting since they mentioned stuff like "Genesis of the Universe"

 

[DavidTPPM]

Chapter 85 mentioned Primordial Gods, this is getting interesting since they mentioned stuff like "Genesis of the Universe"

Not more 3A RoR

At least this time it could be with new evidence

 

[RanaProGamer]

Not more 3A RoR

At least this time it could be with new evidence

Lol, don't worry. It's likely a future thing that will be revealed more in Odin's fight since we know pretty much nothing. Nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Giannysmag]

Not more 3A RoR

At least this time it could be with new evidence

At least now people can shut up about non-canon "Zeus created the universe" statements

 

[PrinceofPein]

KT found width via scaling to IRL snakes.

It has the same durability no matter the size. It's a snake made of tissue, not stone. Calculations like this doesn't need a set level of durability. It's just the size of it, it's thicker but doesn't change the durability of its flesh unless stated to be more durable than flesh. Durability is found from the force generated of being that size, Durability would scale to the force it can generate from being that size otherwise it'd collapse on itself.

Via a special move that Thor used before on Lu-Bu.

That's not how Calculations work Pain. Pulverizing the snake would yield vastly higher than 5-A given it's size. Attacks anywhere could be fatal. Thor's Hammer wasn't even Awakened at that point when he killed the serpent. 5-A comes from it's GPE / KE not it being Pulverized. Such level of destruction isn't needed, going by your logic Zoro cutting Pica isn't valid since Zoro is smaller than Pica and didn't turn him into dust.

Based on your reply, you have not read the epics of Thor, I have not previously and after reading it, I can say I now disagree totally since we are following the IRL myth.

In the epics Thor is comparable in size to the world serpent, the size of Thor in RoR is just above an average human. So if they are supposed to be comparable in size, then the snake is not same as the IRL snake.

In the epics the snake also killed Thor and they both died, which means they are very different lores.

In the lore, The serpent head is just shy larger than an Ox, which would mean it is not so wide.

What I am saying is, we cannot use a single statement to make assumptions of what we know nothing about. Especially since the Thor depicted in the lore is different from that which is shown in RoR, it only means we cannot use IRL serpent for the one that was mentioned in RoR.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

I am distinctly against this upgrade and RoR being planetary currently for a multitude of reasons. And apologies about the formatting too still new with these forums.
Forgive me, I need to write rant piece before I point out issues with the scaling of RoR's AP I want to point out for those who care at all; Jormungandr does not translate to World Serpent directly it was a title given to it for encircling Midgard. Jormun is for something vast large or super human, gandr meaning river, serpent, staff or a few other variations... Jormungandr just means "REALLY BIG SNAKE" or "Vast River" essentially. Thor PICKED IT UP when it was in the shape of a cat in the epics and fished it up too before fighting the great serpent during Ragnarok to a mutual death in the Edda Prose, while in chapter 5 page 18 of Record of Ragnarok we have a SINGLE mention of Jormungand (no R I guess for RoR's big snake) being called the World Serpent. We need MORE info about RoR's World Serpent I feel before the respectable mod team goes signing off on something like this, after all you could easily have a "World Serpent" be of drastic size differences, it could be several mountain ranges long.. it could be the size of the solar system, we have no confirmation it reached around the world only that its title was that of the World Serpent, are we going to go around granting things upgrades based on titles alone with no substantiation outside of the name? I'd be more than happy to have 5-B and 5-A for Thor and those equivalents of his strength or greater but we are going off of a single name and shaky evidence of them saying "they're going to destroy everything cause The Biggest Most Murderest God is so cool woah"... a lot.

Ranting about nominal miscategorizations aside...

To pull all this together: The arguments for the 5-B and 5-A and my rebuttals are as follows:
1)Jormungand from RoR which we have no way to confirm if it actually could circumnavigate the planet like the Calc suggests currently outside of the assumption based from its name which is shaky at best and if we want to be picky about names isn't even Jormungandr. It just has the title of World Serpent... as Hajun had the title Demon Lord of the Sixth Heaven, crap do we have to scale him to Heaven?
2)While the mention of eradicating humanity has been mentioned plenty about how easy it would be we do not know the method, as someone above mentioned it could be through ritual, as I mentioned it could be through a device assuming it is from their AP IS a stretch. One of the earliest points in the series is how obscenely proud and arrogant the Gods of RoR are, even the 'Wise' gods of the verse are on some scyophantic 'Yeah I'm the best tho' energy otherwise there would not have been a unanimous vote to kill all of the Humans, and even then.. it is kill the humans not destroy the planet

3) Zeus is an obscene powerhouse of a God, his statement from Original poster about destroying the heavens was in his Adamas form which we have no way of seeing if others scale to his form or the statement from that form in their base or empowered forms. Shiva is saying 'don't destroy the heavens' as a response to how powerful his form is there is no confirmation he is going to passively destroy the entirity of Valhala, if Shiva can burn it all like the OP said on a whim he wouldn't be making a comment like that if he scaled anywhere close casually or otherwise logically cause after all. Zeus even has a really funny other name; Jehovah and God Father of the Cosmos.. must we scale him to his epithets too?

4)Shiva CAN NOT destroy and recreate the world on the whim, he uses a technique called the Tandava Karma, which takes time to burn everything up if we assume it to be true however we've seen legends be wrong before (Thor's 100% hit and his gloves for quick examples).

and for the examples of these legends being... wrong:

-if anything Shiva is doing this with more just an over time or through environmental destruction feat it does not scale to his base AP nor to other gods base as Planetary / Large Planetary


5)We have no time frame on how long it took to destroy half of Helhiem it looks like a standard portrayal of 'they raised the city in a savage plundering' we see in media the closest frame is that it was over night and he was gone in the next morning meaning he was there for a part of the night and again this is another Legends piece which we've established can be wrong (RoR's Prose Edda again)

I am fine if the series wants to actually give us a feat of them being planetary or large planetary with more context but as it sits Record of Ragnarok with full context of the story does not really have that sort of capacity, after all... Chaos is one of the strongest attacks in the series and is a single attack with the hype line reading "it threatens to swallow the heavens" oh wait.. yeah that is right a single attack over time... hmm another case of maybe ED via Technique?

No, it is not because he has a limit: We know Beel gets hurt from the technique and he also cannot end his own life given Satan's existence... so sounds like he would never have swallowed up the heavens anyway and we have no way of assessing the level it got to before it stopped previously in Helhiem at its maximum anyway as it is off screen

IF anything it isn't that Thor's feat of off screening Jormangand should be taken as bad it is noted inside the series as impressive, we have to still ask "sure it was a single hit, but how much damage and how did Thor strike the big snake" which we have zero confirmation how he killed it save 'it was 1 strike' RoR's big snake could after all have had a weak spot, it could have been smaller and we only have a singular comment of it being called the World Serpent without ANYTHING else for its size, that isn't vague that literally is a single mention of its title in the two times it was mentioned. The justifications for Planetary and Large Planetary is not enough given prescedent shown in other series and we are being too generous to RoR and its Attack Potency much like we were with speed before the Apollo fight. To quote the Attack Potency page and Statements page,

The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack.

• If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character? .... Note: Please remember that character and narrative statements tend to use flowery language and exaggerate to certain degrees.

We do not have enough information to say these guys are at those Tiers given the lack of a single attack scaling there, there being issues with the assumption of the big snake Jormangand with no confirmation on its size, there are a slew of issues with the original posters other points as presented between this and my previous post on this thread.
If this series has is enough to justify Planetary or Large Planetary, there is work to be done for other series upgrades who have this level or greater of proof for their canon. With this I stay my hand and wish for the people who can approve this to consider my efforts in explaining why it doesn't fit the range.

 

[PowerToScale]

Can we keep this limited to the topic at hand and not diverge into other discussions, thank you.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Can we keep this limited to the topic at hand and not diverge into other discussions, thank you.

This
The discussion is 5-A, not 5-B

 

[PrinceofPein]

The discussion is the calc and the calc is trying to apply 5A/5B, and the opposition not only pointed out how the calc is wrong but why tier 5 is also

 

[DavidTPPM]

I am distinctly against this upgrade and RoR being planetary currently for a multitude of reasons. And apologies about the formatting too still new with these forums.
Forgive me, I need to write rant piece before I point out issues with the scaling of RoR's AP I want to point out for those who care at all; Jormungandr does not translate to World Serpent directly it was a title given to it for encircling Midgard. Jormun is for something vast large or super human, gandr meaning river, serpent, staff or a few other variations... Jormungandr just means "REALLY BIG SNAKE" or "Vast River" essentially. Thor PICKED IT UP when it was in the shape of a cat in the epics and fished it up too before fighting the great serpent during Ragnarok to a mutual death in the Edda Prose, while in chapter 5 page 18 of Record of Ragnarok we have a SINGLE mention of Jormungand (no R I guess for RoR's big snake) being called the World Serpent. We need MORE info about RoR's World Serpent I feel before the respectable mod team goes signing off on something like this, after all you could easily have a "World Serpent" be of drastic size differences, it could be several mountain ranges long.. it could be the size of the solar system, we have no confirmation it reached around the world only that its title was that of the World Serpent, are we going to go around granting things upgrades based on titles alone with no substantiation outside of the name? I'd be more than happy to have 5-B and 5-A for Thor and those equivalents of his strength or greater but we are going off of a single name and shaky evidence of them saying "they're going to destroy everything cause The Biggest Most Murderest God is so cool woah"... a lot.

Ranting about nominal miscategorizations aside...

To pull all this together: The arguments for the 5-B and 5-A and my rebuttals are as follows:
1)Jormungand from RoR which we have no way to confirm if it actually could circumnavigate the planet like the Calc suggests currently outside of the assumption based from its name which is shaky at best and if we want to be picky about names isn't even Jormungandr. It just has the title of World Serpent... as Hajun had the title Demon Lord of the Sixth Heaven, crap do we have to scale him to Heaven?
2)While the mention of eradicating humanity has been mentioned plenty about how easy it would be we do not know the method, as someone above mentioned it could be through ritual, as I mentioned it could be through a device assuming it is from their AP IS a stretch. One of the earliest points in the series is how obscenely proud and arrogant the Gods of RoR are, even the 'Wise' gods of the verse are on some scyophantic 'Yeah I'm the best tho' energy otherwise there would not have been a unanimous vote to kill all of the Humans, and even then.. it is kill the humans not destroy the planet

3) Zeus is an obscene powerhouse of a God, his statement from Original poster about destroying the heavens was in his Adamas form which we have no way of seeing if others scale to his form or the statement from that form in their base or empowered forms. Shiva is saying 'don't destroy the heavens' as a response to how powerful his form is there is no confirmation he is going to passively destroy the entirity of Valhala, if Shiva can burn it all like the OP said on a whim he wouldn't be making a comment like that if he scaled anywhere close casually or otherwise logically cause after all. Zeus even has a really funny other name; Jehovah and God Father of the Cosmos.. must we scale him to his epithets too?

4)Shiva CAN NOT destroy and recreate the world on the whim, he uses a technique called the Tandava Karma, which takes time to burn everything up if we assume it to be true however we've seen legends be wrong before (Thor's 100% hit and his gloves for quick examples).

and for the examples of these legends being... wrong:

-if anything Shiva is doing this with more just an over time or through environmental destruction feat it does not scale to his base AP nor to other gods base as Planetary / Large Planetary


5)We have no time frame on how long it took to destroy half of Helhiem it looks like a standard portrayal of 'they raised the city in a savage plundering' we see in media the closest frame is that it was over night and he was gone in the next morning meaning he was there for a part of the night and again this is another Legends piece which we've established can be wrong (RoR's Prose Edda again)

I am fine if the series wants to actually give us a feat of them being planetary or large planetary with more context but as it sits Record of Ragnarok with full context of the story does not really have that sort of capacity, after all... Chaos is one of the strongest attacks in the series and is a single attack with the hype line reading "it threatens to swallow the heavens" oh wait.. yeah that is right a single attack over time... hmm another case of maybe ED via Technique?

No, it is not because he has a limit: We know Beel gets hurt from the technique and he also cannot end his own life given Satan's existence... so sounds like he would never have swallowed up the heavens anyway and we have no way of assessing the level it got to before it stopped previously in Helhiem at its maximum anyway as it is off screen

IF anything it isn't that Thor's feat of off screening Jormangand should be taken as bad it is noted inside the series as impressive, we have to still ask "sure it was a single hit, but how much damage and how did Thor strike the big snake" which we have zero confirmation how he killed it save 'it was 1 strike' RoR's big snake could after all have had a weak spot, it could have been smaller and we only have a singular comment of it being called the World Serpent without ANYTHING else for its size, that isn't vague that literally is a single mention of its title in the two times it was mentioned. The justifications for Planetary and Large Planetary is not enough given prescedent shown in other series and we are being too generous to RoR and its Attack Potency much like we were with speed before the Apollo fight. To quote the Attack Potency page and Statements page,


We do not have enough information to say these guys are at those Tiers given the lack of a single attack scaling there, there being issues with the assumption of the big snake Jormangand with no confirmation on its size, there are a slew of issues with the original posters other points as presented between this and my previous post on this thread.
If this series has is enough to justify Planetary or Large Planetary, there is work to be done for other series upgrades who have this level or greater of proof for their canon. With this I stay my hand and wish for the people who can approve this to consider my efforts in explaining why it doesn't fit the range.

Bro just make a CRT for a downgrade when this one is over. This won't achieve much.

 

[PowerToScale]

Its been a few days since this crt was created. Both DarkDragonMedeus and Damage, as well as most other agree with a possible rating to the characters, the only real disagreement is a different discussion to the crt at hand. Unless mod votes have changed, no real point in keeping this crt open.

@RanaProGamer if you could get a follow up opinion on them.

 

[Udlmaster]

2 staff isn’t a consensus, especially when Dark only said it looked okay at a glance.

It’s completely arbitrary to try and force through a CRT when it’s being discussed and the main topic at hand is being discussed (Tier 5).

 

[PowerToScale]

2 staff isn’t a consensus, especially when Dark only said it looked okay at a glance.

It’s completely arbitrary to try and force through a CRT when it’s being discussed and the main topic at hand is being discussed (Tier 5).

"try and force through a CRT"

"Unless mod votes have changed" "@RanaProGamer if you could get a follow up opinion on them."

I guess if you say so. Also no, main topic, is if 5-A is possible, the discussion surrounded tier 5 in general has been discussed and not the point of this thread.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

"try and force through a CRT"

"Unless mod votes have changed" "@RanaProGamer if you could get a follow up opinion on them."

I guess if you say so. Also no, main topic, is if 5-A is possible, the discussion surrounded tier 5 in general has been discussed and not the point of this thread.

If the baseline assumption (5-B) is provable as incorrect, why should the extrapolation of 5-A be considered? This is relevant to the 5-A conversation as it builds from the 5-B conversations in these contexts of RoR. In addition, the feats I pointed out in my as some called it a CRT within a CRT are the full feats for the points the OP was using as justification and I'm tackling the points the initial proposer brought up in a method to address the context around said feats involving the baseline assumption of 5-B to address the higher level of 5-A (an extrapolation) as if one does not address the incorrect baseline of we cannot in good faith move forward as the presumption is false we could have inflated results for the tier of RoR characters. We are aiming for accuracy with the scales of these characters. Additionally in an early post as I and many others pointed out, we have no discerning information around Jormungand the World Serpent and the CRT is attempting to grant 5-A with literally a title given to something we have never seen where we do not know the size, context or anything, the information is below that of vague it is nonexistent for the description outside of a title, this is often reffered to as a naming fallacy or a nominal fallacy. I addressed the points for 5-A and mentioned that the points the OP used are not appropiate to grant 5-B let alone the attempt at 5-A, that is the truth of the matter.
Addressing the incorrect baseline is a valid method of pointing out incongruencies within an argument that assists in addressing an extrapolation from falsehood. That was my method with the points I made, I just figure I should clarify so there aren't any misconceptions around my approach as there is no intent to derail, I am not comparing apples to oranges, nor am I trying to interject with some nonsequitor that is not part of the conversation or part of a previous conversation.

Additonally, I don't believe I was here for the tier 5 in general discussion, shutting off my points because I was not here silences any attempt to help with the discussion at hand as well as the fact this does not preclude the possibility the conclussion previously was incorrect and is a non point to my point in the argument, it simply acts like a strawman to the argument I made.

 

[RanaProGamer]

If the baseline assumption (5-B) is provable as incorrect, why should the extrapolation of 5-A be considered? This is relevant to the 5-A conversation as it builds from the 5-B conversations in these contexts of RoR. In addition, the feats I pointed out in my as some called it a CRT within a CRT are the full feats for the points the OP was using as justification and I'm tackling the points the initial proposer brought up in a method to address the context around said feats involving the baseline assumption of 5-B to address the higher level of 5-A (an extrapolation) as if one does not address the incorrect baseline of we cannot in good faith move forward as the presumption is false we could have inflated results for the tier of RoR characters. We are aiming for accuracy with the scales of these characters. Additionally in an early post as I and many others pointed out, we have no discerning information around Jormungand the World Serpent and the CRT is attempting to grant 5-A with literally a title given to something we have never seen where we do not know the size, context or anything, the information is below that of vague it is nonexistent for the description outside of a title, this is often reffered to as a naming fallacy or a nominal fallacy. I addressed the points for 5-A and mentioned that the points the OP used are not appropiate to grant 5-B let alone the attempt at 5-A, that is the truth of the matter.
Addressing the incorrect baseline is a valid method of pointing out incongruencies within an argument that assists in addressing an extrapolation from falsehood. That was my method with the points I made, I just figure I should clarify so there aren't any misconceptions around my approach as there is no intent to derail, I am not comparing apples to oranges, nor am I trying to interject with some nonsequitor that is not part of the conversation or part of a previous conversation.

Additonally, I don't believe I was here for the tier 5 in general discussion, shutting off my points because I was not here silences any attempt to help with the discussion at hand as well as the fact this does not preclude the possibility the conclussion previously was incorrect and is a non point to my point in the argument, it simply acts like a strawman to the argument I made.

Tbh, I don't mind really waiting it out till we get more additional info, I just pointed out that this could possibly be used as its the only feat that just happens to yeild 5-A results. We're only at Round 10 of the manga, and the Loki and Odin fight is still a long way to go considering this is a monthly manga.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Bump for interest

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Bump again for interest

 

[RanaProGamer]

Damage seems to be in agreement for “5-B, possibly 5-A”

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

When has the world serpent ever been portrayed as not planet sized?

 

[Reiner04]

Conclusion?

 

[Reiner04]

Damage seems to be in agreement for “5-B, possibly 5-A”

So one more vote needed.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Wasn't there a whole tier 5 debunk in page 1?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Bump

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

bump

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Bump for interest #1K

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

When has the world serpent ever been portrayed as not planet sized?

The illusion of Midgard Serpent in The Last Unicorn
The World Serpent seen in The Magic Flute (German Film)
Jormungandr from Duck Tales (Literally never seen at his supposed full size)
Jormungandr from the current times of In Nomine (ttrpg) 'it's only regrown to the point where its head is sixty yards long and it stands two stories tall when rearing up.'
And more...

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Wasn't there a whole tier 5 debunk in page 1?

Yes, hi that is my work, also the OP said we can wait on the thread for further information too so no need to keep bumping the thread I believe.