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Reconstructing The White Hot Room
- Thread starter Comicgyal
- Start date
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Here's what I've previously logged.
Marvel Cosmic Beings Feats Timeline Project
vsbattles.fandom.com
This clearly doesn't mean what's aimed to mean as evidence of 2-A. In the first image she just says to have the power of creation, not "all creation", in context it being among her role and usual abilities as reviving others, destroying things so that others may take its place, etc. In the second image she points out the light, glory, stars, and worlds and then all creation as part of her, this has no reason to objectively mean the multiverse and it is pretty evident that she meant the universe by it and planets by worlds next to stars. It may also be poetic and not a form of omnipresence, but her having creating and going to create or lead to the creation of those things being what she meant by "a part of me!"
Are we going to ignore how up in the air this is? The first one could refer to a hungry Galactus who goes around being a danger to Earth or other planets, the Galactus heroes often have to deal with. The second image doesn't mean much, why would it mean she's as poweful as he rarely is at his best? It's not like the dismisses the importance of the planets he eats. And was Galactus full at the time? Because if there is evidence that he wasn't, and he went on to fight her anyway, then, well, that woul tell us something about her power.
It says "all of reality" for the crystal, which I see no reason to believe it's more than the universe. Cosmically healing that is pretty inapplicable as a feat. Quickly seeining the M'kraan Crystal's page in the Marvel wiki I found that the thing only endangers the universe, in X-Men vol 1 issues 107 "the fate of the universe" is at risk, at the end it's pointed out that if it explotes all existace will cease to be, which is immediately followed by a bit of this effect having happened & a fraction of a second of only the universe having been erased, and that if it keep happening the fabric of time and space will tear itself apart and the universe will die, in issue 108 it endangers the universe in another way and the throw around words like "all existence" but it's made very clear that they only mean the universe. Also the healing done is something like Energy Manip. Dark Phoenix is a threat to existence, because she's evil and powerful.
Unlesss one may have Nonexistance Physiology, everyone is "of creation". Anyone not from the main universe in a setting or larger than it is "beyond reality".
But wouldn't the first Big Bang by creating the multiverse be making other infinite Big Bangs happen as the beginning of their universes? Don't other comics point a Big Bang to have created the universe, or the Celestials? I think it would make more sense that he meant your average 3-A or Low 2-C Big Bang in that instance.
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@Eficiente
That AP Revision section of my blog was from the old version of Jean's profile that I was working on citing.
That AP Revision section of my blog was from the old version of Jean's profile that I was working on citing.
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I can see that the White Hot Room is the heart of the Phoenix, but not how it's her mindscape and her most native state. I'm ok with her durability scaling to it as it's her "heart".
Aside from it, I don't know what makes the Far Shore have its tier, what's linked in Eternity's page is pretty wrong.
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- Thread starter
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I was a bit busy, but the WHR is referred to as the mindscape of the Phoenix many times. Even if that wasn’t believable, it would still scale to their AP since the Phoenix and it’s true avatars can manipulate the WHR how they want to.
I’m just going off of what’s stated, I believe the description of the far shore fits the criteria for its tier but that’s not my debate.
Aside from that, this should be okay, right everyone?
I’m just going off of what’s stated, I believe the description of the far shore fits the criteria for its tier but that’s not my debate.
Aside from that, this should be okay, right everyone?
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Valid points of what? It’s something that Jean is inseparably unified with and manipulates, verbatim being stated to be her mindscape.
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That’s in response to Firestorm’s linked post, not OP.
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So is this fine to go? It has numerous consistent agreements.
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Over 10 agreements isn’t enough?
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Not nearly enough agreements from the members that seem sufficiently knowledgeable about Marvel and DC Comics.
Firestorm, Eficiente, and Impress do not seem to have given clear answers for example.
Firestorm, Eficiente, and Impress do not seem to have given clear answers for example.
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From Eternity's page on the Far Shore:
On its own if everything said was right and the evidence shown was what we claim it to be then it would mean that the Far Shore is some space outside all "levels" of space and time, and this somehow means infinite dimensions that are infinite times more complex than the last, which seems like an odd way for the comics to put it.
But it's not that at all, what's written is alien to what the evidence shows, it's not "beyond all levels of space, time", it's just a place with "no space" and "no time", as well as "beyond all life and death", which doesn't at all mean that it's beyond all "levels" of time and space, it just doesn't have time and space, that could be found in a regular universe if someone who can mess with time and space removes them from a place, or otherside the universe and thus outside time and space. The second link just says it's the farthest point of all life and death, w/o any multiversal scale implied.
This place being at the level we put it has no reason to be.
So dimensions fold into themselves, and then maybe they collapse. What about it? It's not like they're infinite of them and each is infinite times more complex than the one before. Yes the multiverse has infinite universe, but that's not what Dorm is saying here, and even if he did those would be universes, not spatial dimensions.
>has been shown to
So Reed sees a 4D universe and is too complex for his 3D eyes, so he sees it weirdly, that's ok but it doesn't mean that the 4D universe is infinite times more complex than his own, it can be so complex it gets to be seen as weirldly w/o being infinite times more complex. Then Reed gets to a world with limitless dimensions, which is good but why it still be in the multiverse?
This is very out of context, the character is turning from a kid into a teen and points out that he and fellows are smart and have hyperminds, that someone is hiding something but that he can't from people who can see the multiverse on infinite levels, as he points out that as what they need to see through the facade and moving away a curtain, also as a weird tree in front changes to be stairs, then as a door and then as stairs again which he goes up on but passes by as if it was a door.
This "infinite levels" in which the multiverse is being seen isn't about higher dimension, but equally complex ways to see the same in other ways, thus revealing secrets in it.
Also even if they were higher dimensions (which they're not), they wouldn't be part of the multiverse if they "see" the multiverse through it.
So he's outside the universe, in a vortex that goes up into "infinity beyond infinity", which doesn't mean much as it just gives Universal size to the thing. He can also be referring to the cosmic being Infinity on the second infinity he said, as he pointed out just before that he was outside her. He questions if they were variations of his reality or "mirror images" but this doesn't get followed.
Nothing there points out infinite dimensions with each being infinite times more complex than the one before.
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So the White Hot Room is the Phoenix's heart, that's correct. The WHR is outside the Far Shore, that's also correct, the latter is just at the edge of everything. But I don't see why does it matter.
On its own if everything said was right and the evidence shown was what we claim it to be then it would mean that the Far Shore is some space outside all "levels" of space and time, and this somehow means infinite dimensions that are infinite times more complex than the last, which seems like an odd way for the comics to put it.
But it's not that at all, what's written is alien to what the evidence shows, it's not "beyond all levels of space, time", it's just a place with "no space" and "no time", as well as "beyond all life and death", which doesn't at all mean that it's beyond all "levels" of time and space, it just doesn't have time and space, that could be found in a regular universe if someone who can mess with time and space removes them from a place, or otherside the universe and thus outside time and space. The second link just says it's the farthest point of all life and death, w/o any multiversal scale implied.
This place being at the level we put it has no reason to be.
So dimensions fold into themselves, and then maybe they collapse. What about it? It's not like they're infinite of them and each is infinite times more complex than the one before. Yes the multiverse has infinite universe, but that's not what Dorm is saying here, and even if he did those would be universes, not spatial dimensions.
>has been shown to
So Reed sees a 4D universe and is too complex for his 3D eyes, so he sees it weirdly, that's ok but it doesn't mean that the 4D universe is infinite times more complex than his own, it can be so complex it gets to be seen as weirldly w/o being infinite times more complex. Then Reed gets to a world with limitless dimensions, which is good but why it still be in the multiverse?
This is very out of context, the character is turning from a kid into a teen and points out that he and fellows are smart and have hyperminds, that someone is hiding something but that he can't from people who can see the multiverse on infinite levels, as he points out that as what they need to see through the facade and moving away a curtain, also as a weird tree in front changes to be stairs, then as a door and then as stairs again which he goes up on but passes by as if it was a door.
This "infinite levels" in which the multiverse is being seen isn't about higher dimension, but equally complex ways to see the same in other ways, thus revealing secrets in it.
Also even if they were higher dimensions (which they're not), they wouldn't be part of the multiverse if they "see" the multiverse through it.
So he's outside the universe, in a vortex that goes up into "infinity beyond infinity", which doesn't mean much as it just gives Universal size to the thing. He can also be referring to the cosmic being Infinity on the second infinity he said, as he pointed out just before that he was outside her. He questions if they were variations of his reality or "mirror images" but this doesn't get followed.
Nothing there points out infinite dimensions with each being infinite times more complex than the one before.
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So the White Hot Room is the Phoenix's heart, that's correct. The WHR is outside the Far Shore, that's also correct, the latter is just at the edge of everything. But I don't see why does it matter.
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Wait, what are we using to justify WHR being above Multiversal Eternity Beings?
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Ah, thanks.
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Which is its own massive can of worms that should and will be handled on its own thread.
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So, the OP should be fine, yeah?
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- Thread starter
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I believe for the time being, the WHR should scale to the suggested tier of 1-A right? Even with the far shore, and it may or may not being correct, it (the WHR) still transcends marvels multiverse by an incredible amount. Ultima did agree with me, yes, and it doesn’t sound like Efi is entirely against the WHR scaling either. (Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.)
How do you guys feel?
How do you guys feel?
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Well, as Eficiente alluded to, we definitely need to separate Marvel cosmology into different writers and largely downgrade it, in the long run.
Regarding this specific thread, we need more input from knowledgeable members.
Regarding this specific thread, we need more input from knowledgeable members.
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That may take years and by then new stories would have been written and I hugely disagree with it personally because there are writers that into account past work. Regardless its not the point of the thread like you said.
I agree with you Comicgyal.
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As do I.
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This is excellent, in my opinion. Phoenix has always seemed to me to be deserving of much more, and this is it. Also, I don't think waiting for the cosmological split is a good idea because it could take a long time. I've been here for a month and have heard about the cosmological split but have yet to see any concrete work on it (unless someone is making blogs or sandbox for it)
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@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx @Elizio33 @The_Impress @Planck69 @Confluctor
Would you be willing to help out here please?
Would you be willing to help out here please?
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I am in agreement with it, of course.
As for the whole downgrade thing, Ewing's cosmology is the highest/largest one and one of the most clear cut tier 1 cosmologies I have personally seen, so I don't think the rating will change even if we split it up and whatnot.
As for the whole downgrade thing, Ewing's cosmology is the highest/largest one and one of the most clear cut tier 1 cosmologies I have personally seen, so I don't think the rating will change even if we split it up and whatnot.
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Isn't Ewing's cosmology on its own only somewhere in tier 1-C? I don't think that it has ever defined infinite higher degrees of infinity, and Hickman's preceding cosmology was blatantly only tier 2-B.
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Hickman's is Low 1-C from what I can remember. But Ewing's is much higher.
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I think Hickman's cosmology is 2-A or higher
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