Re:Zero Re:Visions 2nd Cour

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Relooking through some stuff involving Garfiel, found some interesting things.

Garfiel can shatter a stone building, wonder what results would that give?

Against the screaming Garfiel, Kurgan remained impassive.
The silent war god that Garfiel was facing would only watch him quietly. With a pout, he broke the line of the street, then rushed forward with a single step.
Through the soles of his shoes, he absorbed the power of the earth, allowing his [Divine Protection of Earth Spirits] to redirect all that energy into a blow.
His fist was truly infused with the power to shatter a stone building.-Arc 5, Chapter 51

Garfiel's regen needs to be upped to like High-Low, he regenerated severely broken bones

Hearing his words and seeing his movements, the expressions of the little brother and little sister who had rushed over changed. Little sister especially wore a look of rage.

Sister: “Are, are you stupid!? Alright lie down already! Right away… yes, right away, right away I’ll go call a doctor over…”

Garfiel: “There’re other guys needin’ doctors. My amazin’ self’s got other things t’ do, kiddo.”

Garfiel nodded at the little sister whose face had turned bright red. But his face full of fresh blood perhaps didn’t look very convincing. Little sister ceaselessly wept anguished tears.

During this time, wretchedly broken bones in his arms reconnected. Although the flesh had yet to recover fully, running a few steps wouldn’t have him passing out. Garfiel stood after having reached this conclusion.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again got bones broken and healed

Garfiel’s entire abdominal area took the force of his opponent’s huge fists, and his body flew upward. Then, he was smashed by the fist that had been swung from above, and the already decrepit floor broke beneath him and he fell another level.

Garfiel: “Kuu, what… guu!?”

The sole of a foot slammed into his downward falling body.

The damage caused by both the momentum and the mass caused him to spit blood, and his body, stomped on once again, crashed fiercely and directly through to the entrance to the building, where it was smashed into the street.

From this striking impact, Garfiel continued to cough and he climbed to his feet. At the same time, he applied simple healing magic himself, knitting broken bones as he raised his head.-Arc 5, Chapter 51

Garfiel has a danger sense, he needs precog added

Kurgan greeted him with the same, the distance between the two reducing to zero in a mere instant.
To say hit would be too sharp, to say slash would be blunt, the attacks that Garfiel made without pause leaving little room to breathe.
The air that Demon Cleavers touched was not whistled through or sliced so much as it was killed, every blade only being caught by Garfiel due to his warriors’ instinct for danger.
In one exchange of blows he needed to content with eight hands, and those eight hands only needed to contend with one.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again mention of his hair standing on end, obviously sensing danger

Suddenly, Garfiel’s hair stood on end at a chill.

Kurgan whose six hands had been dodged would want to use the remaining two to finish Garfiel. — A fatal blow approached.

— Skipping over the seventh hand, the eighth and last hand attacked.

He stopped an attack with one hand, using it to wield the Demon Cleaver.

Right hand holding the pommel of the Demon Cleaver, right shoulder’s hand tightly gripping the body of the Demon Cleaver. A blow that surpassed powerful was about to welcome Garfiel from the ground.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again another instance of his instincts warning him of danger

They contained countless points of light; these were countless winged insects enshrouded by phosphorescent light—
“Since long ago, I have had few human friends. Instead, I get along quite well with my friends beyond humans.”
Garfiel was taken aback by the voice coming down at him from overhead. He could not instantly comprehend the meaning of those words. But his instincts rang an alarm bell warning him of danger.
And once again, even that very instant, Garfiel was listening to his enemy’s words.
Accordingly, the next moment, his just rewards blew up in his face.-Volume 13, Chapter 4

He should also have vibration manipulation? Or maybe it's sound manipulation? His roar basically blew Subaru away

In staying behind, Ram had probably calculated along the same lines as they—

“ ——!!!!!”
A roar bellowed across the forest, and the next instant, Subaru was swallowed up by a ferocious shockwave.
5
“—.————aa”
Ting, went the ringing in his ears. Subaru slowly opened his eyes.
The instant they opened, his head heavily swayed. He’d fallen to the ground. And yet, his semicircular canals had lost track of the world, and he kept rocking right and left, as if swaying on top of a wave.-Volume 11, Chapter 4

Large size type 0

“—Aa”
In the world inclined at ninety degrees, he saw a hole gouged out of the ground, a great broken tree, and a crouching figure.
—Subaru saw a single giant tiger covered in golden fur.
“ image (image) ”
The ferocious tiger’s body was crouched low. Its jade eyes were looking down at the fallen Subaru.
Its body length was about twelve feet long, far larger than the tigers Subaru knew.
Its four legs were very thick, and its closed mouth could not contain all the fangs growing therein.
At a glance, the visual broadcast the menace that the tiger’s very presence presented.
“…uu”
The blow, the circumstances, made him think of something very similar he’d recently experienced amid the tragedy at the mansion the last time around—when he’d lost Petra to the attack of a demon beast.-Volume 11, Chapter 4

Resurrected Kurgan doesn't need to breath, that's self-sustenance type 1

The two entangled men plummeted into the waterway, where Garfiel had lost his footing due to his inexperience in aquatic combat. The magically resurrected Kugan had no need to breathe, and if he had wanted to decide the outcome could have merely waited for Garfiel to drown.-Chapter 62

Btw aren't Kurgan and Theresia basically undead, shouldn't they have immortality type 7?

It sprayed from Kurgan’s right hand, that last right hand that clutched the Demon Cleaver.

On it was a wound persisting from the last time he’d attacked Garfiel, deep enough that bone was visible from hand to upper arm. From this blow just now the wound had completely split open.

Kurgan’s face bore no shock. Nor did his expression change due to the pain.

That was a matter of course. He was a corpse. Pain existed for the sake of urging people to live, to ensure that the candlelight of life still existed beyond the minimum limit — the deceased did not need such a tool.-Chapter 62

Kurgan's fist is equated to a warships and can cause a human to explode, wonder what results does that give?

The impact from his right fractured his elbow, the wrist of upper arm shattering completely. Garfiel gritted his teeth, to the extent that his teeth dripped blood. That was the second hand.
The third fourth hand were empty, striking in the same instant.
The clenched fists of Kurgan with his giant form, were no smaller than the size of a child’s skull. Explosive power paired with explosive size, the power of a blow could be said to equate that of a warship’s.
Not to mention that one first felt capable of piercing iron plate, approached Garfiel whose mind had blanked after the impact to his head. One toward his body and one toward his head, either with a direct hit was capable of exploding a human.-Chapter 62

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Jeesus Pegasus that's a lot.

Garfiel can shatter a stone building, wonder what results would that give?

Based on calcs I've done before, shattering a stone building is, you guessed it, Building level.

Garfiel's regen needs to be upped to like High-Low, he regenerated severely broken bones

Isn't that just Mid-Low though? High-Low is when you start regening parts of your body that have been cut off or organ damage.

Again got bones broken and healed

That's his healing magic, not his natural regen.

Garfiel has a danger sense, he needs precog added

Aren't all those examples of instinct/intuition rather than precognition?

He should also have vibration manipulation? Or maybe it's sound manipulation? His roar basically blew Subaru away

Sound manipulation would be a better fit, I guess.

Large size type 0

It says 12 feet, which is about 3.65 meters.

Resurrected Kurgan doesn't need to breath, that's self-sustenance type 1

Simple enough.

Btw aren't Kurgan and Theresia basically undead, shouldn't they have immortality type 7?

I suppose.

Kurgan's fist is equated to a warships and can cause a human to explode, wonder what results does that give?

We have destruction values for the human body, so it's Wall level to make someone explode. I have no idea the power of a warship's blow would be or what that even refers to.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@OppaiSenpai5

So building level as i thought, cool i guess

I guess it's Mid-Low? Wasn't too sure cause the page doesn't mention anything about broken bones. Looking at profiles like Spider-Man though, he does have it for healing broken bones in hours, though Garfiel's is faster. Mid-Low it is then.

Intuition/instinct falls under precog when it comes to sensing danger last i checked, precog is a pretty broad ability which even includes predicting things through math, i mean spider man has it for instinctive reactions to danger.

Misread that as 20ft for some reason, my bad. No large size then.

Yea no idea what power of warship entails either.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Intuition/instinct fall under precog when it comes to sensing danger last i checked, it's a pretty broad ability which even includes predicting things through math, when it comes to sensing danger, i mean spider man has it for instinctive reactions to danger.

You'd think it falls under instinctive reactions, no? Can't IRL animals do basically the same things that Garfiel can?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Instinctive reactions is moving without thinking, Garfiel doesn't do that, he is just sensing danger due to his instincts. Though actually could have sworn he does have a feat of reacting without thinking in the WN, but no clue where to find that atm.

I guess they do? Have heard stuff about animals knowing when earthquakes are coming.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

And precognition is the ability to predict the future though various means. Garfiel doesn't do that, he can just sense that something dangerous is happening, in the present that is. It's more like a type of enhanced sense:

• Enhanced Awareness: All senses are attuned to nearby activity

or

• Enhanced Sixth: Users of this rare ability can feel changes without knowing how or why, often reaching into precognition

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems like an enhanced sixth sense, which it does says can reach into precog. Think we need some input there cause i have seen danger sense be rated as precog a lot.

This thread is good for fans to post feats and what not, but in terms of getting stuff evaluated, i think it's better to create separate threads.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@DarkDragonMedeus, @Elizhaa Does having instincts that alert you of danger qualify for precog or enhanced senses?

 

[Elizhaa]

Giving the context is about future events, I think it would be Precognition going from the characters like Spiderman (regarding spider-sense).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's what i thought too.

 

[Elizhaa]

Got it.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I don't give up!
I found another possible proof for Cecils and Halibel scaling to Reinhard.

2019 Q&As, so more recent then the one about Thearesia.

Q: For Reinhard to be able to draw his sword against someone, around whose level of strength would they be?

A: There's situations where he can't draw it even against the strongest in the various nations. At the very least, it's beyond the majority of Re: Zero characters.

As we can see that "even" indicates that the strongest in the various nations are portrayed as the strongest characters after Reinhard.
Which is consistent with Ram's words.

Ram:「If we put confidence in Barusu and Emilia-sama’s words then our enemy is of the same caliber as the Knight Reinhardt… If as said they truly are equal to the world’s strongest man, then there’s one that’s at least close to his level in every part of the world.」

Subaru:「So essentially Reinhardt is the strongest in the Kingdom and each of the other three countries have their own strongest.」

Ram:「In the Vollachian Empire there’s the First General, the『Blue Lightning』Cecilus Segmunt; in the Holy Kingdom of Gusteko there’s the『Crazed Prince』; and in the Kararagi City States there’s the『Admirer』Halibel. But each have different traits to them.]"

Of course Reinhard is the strongest man in the world, but seems like that the other nations "strongest" can be comparate to him. It's like Whitebeard in One Piece, who is a yonko and the strongest man in the world, but the other yonkos are still comparable to him even though they're weaker.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

This changes nothing. Reinhard was able to draw Reid against zombie Theresia which is no stronger than old Wil, so both far removed from their prime, but he can't draw it against Halibel:

Q: In the Oboreru story, did Reinhard draw the Dragon Sword Reid while fighting Halibel?
A: No, he couldn't draw it against Halibel.

So being able to make Reinhard draw the sword doesn't mean anything when even a mid tier character was worthy of it while way stronger characters weren't. Hell, even against Reid himself it might not be possible to draw the Dragon Sword:

Q: Even without the Dragon Sword Reid, can Reinhard defeat Satella and Reid?
A: Due to a problem of compatibility, his fight with Satella wouldn't end. Taking on Reid would be difficult, indeed. Since there's a high chance that the Dragon Sword Reid can't be drawn against Reid.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. All that Q&A says is that while there is a certain level of power one must possess to be worthy of Reid, whether one is worthy of it is not about whether one is strong enough to pose a threat to the Sword Saint. Ram's statements remain as unreliable as ever because she has never met either of the people she's talking about (not even Reinhard, I don't think) to be able to accurately judge their power. I'm pretty sure the only one who has any idea of how strong Reinhard really is is Subaru because he got to witness it in the 2nd trial of Sanctuary. Just look at the flimsy logic they used to conclude that Reid is on Reinhard's level:

Without any exaggeration, the『Stick Swinger’s』true strength approached cataclysmic levels.

He’d made short work of Julius with his chopsticks, fought with Emilia and still had plenty of energy left to spare―― His true strength was without exaggeration Reinhardt-grade.

If this is all they need to conclude that someone is close to Reinhard's level, then we shouldn't take their word on anything scaling related. Also, the term "nation's strongest" is meaningless because generations of Sword Saints no stronger than Theresia were always hailed not only as Lugunica's strongest, but also the world's strongest.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

So being able to make Reinhard draw the sword doesn't mean anything when even a mid tier character was worthy of it while way stronger characters weren't.

But what are you talking about? Did you read what I said?
I just posted a q&a, Tappei confirms that sometimes Reinhard can't use the Dragon Sword Reid EVEN against the strongest of the other nations.

Dragon sword Reid isn't related to power level, I agree and I never said otherwise. Why you don't understand me?

The author just said that EVEN against them Reinhard can't always use Reid.

But if Tappei says EVEN against them, this means that they're top level characters and only below Reinhard. Got what I mean?
In author's mind Cecils, Halibel and the Prince are top level characters. He took them as an example to prove that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power, but the fact that they're the example means that they're the strongest characters after Reinhard. That's why Tappei took them as an examplea and said "even".

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

The guy asking the question wanted to know how strong one would need to be to be worthy of Reid, and Tappei's response says that even against the strongest in various nations it might not be possible to draw the sword. That doesn't mean much though. First of, you're assuming that "strongest in the various nations" refers exclusively to Cecilus, Halibel and the Crazed Prince rather than the general top brass of each country (ex. The Divine Generals are the strognest people in Vollachia). And let's not forget that Tappei definitely isn't counting the likes of the Great Spirits in this, despite them each belonging to one of the nations (this is evident when Tappei said that Wilhelm was the strongest of his era, ignoring the fact that the Great Spirits have existed in pretty much every era), or people like Regulus who do not belong to any nation, or people who were very poweful but are now dead or have just ****** off to somewhere cough Volcanica.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

The guy asking the question wanted to know how strong one would need to be to be worthy of Reid, and Tappei's response says that even against the strongest in various nations it might not be possible to draw the sword.

Yeah. Even against them, he's talking like they're the top of the top.
To let the guy understand that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power levels he's taking the strongest guys of the verse to prove that even against them Reinhard might not draw the Sword.
The fact that the author takes the strongest of the others countries to let you understand that drawing the Sword isn't related to power level is Indeed a proof. Why didn't he say that Reinhard might not be able to draw It against spirits or Reid or any other character? Because he wanted to do an example with the strongest guys possible. The most exagerrated example. And I don't see why Ram should talk about something she doesn't know about. In fact she says "if Subaru and Emolia are right about someone being Reinhard's level, then there are Halibel etc." So Ram Is sure that there are people comparable to Reinhard, but she isn't sure about what Subaru and Emilia saw because she wasn't there.
Of course she hadn't seen them fighting, but other people did and now Halibel, Cecils and the Prince are known to be near to Reinhard's level. I don't see why don't take it. The author intent was to hype Reid to Reinhard's level, and to do that he also said that there are other characters near to his level.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Yeah. Even against them, he's talking like they're the top of the top.
To let the guy understand that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power levels he's taking the strongest guys of the verse to prove that even against them Reinhard might not draw the Sword.

If he wanted to talk about the strongest in the series, he would have brough Reid, Volcanica and Satella by name as they're the ones that he has confirmed are able to put up a fight against Reinhard.

The fact that the author takes the strongest of the others countries to let you understand that drawing the Sword isn't related to power level is Indeed a proof. Why didn't he say that Reinhard might not be able to draw It against spirits or Reid or any other character? Because he wanted to do an example with the strongest guys possible. The most exagerrated example.

Ugh, no. Tappei was once asked to list the strongest magic users and this is what he gave us:

Q: Out of the characters that have appeared in Re: Zero so far, please tell me the top five in magic attack strength. Does a serious Emilia-tan make the list?
A: Roswaal > Awakened Emilia > Echidna > Full-power Beatrice > Fortuna; something like that.
(October 09, 2014 arc4)

You'll notice that this ranking does not include Puck. Does that mean that all of these people are stronger than Puck? Nope, Puck is the confirmed strongest magic user that we've seen in the story:

Q: Ignoring physical abilities, who would you choose as the strongest?
A: What do you mean by ‘ignoring physical abilities’, do you mean magic? If so, it’s Puck.

The fact that he wasn't included in the ranking of the strongest magic users shows us that Tappei neglects to mention certain types of characters in these rankings, such as the Great Spirits. (side note: We ignore the fact that Awakened (post arc 4) Emilia is there because it makes no sense)

And I don't see why Ram should talk about something she doesn't know about.

But she doesn't know about it, because she's never met the people she's talking about.

In fact she says "if Subaru and Emolia are right about someone being Reinhard's level, then there are Halibel etc." So Ram Is sure that there are people comparable to Reinhard, but she isn't sure about what Subaru and Emilia saw because she wasn't there.

First off, Emilia outright says she's never seen Reinhard's true power, and for a fact she hasn't seen Reid's either. Really, she's just following what Subaru's already concluded for himself. Ram was being asked if she knew who that guy was, and, based on what Subaru was saying about him being Reinhard-level, her mind went to the only people that are said to be close to him in power. Ram isn't sure that those three are close to Reinhard's level, she's just heard that they are, because she's never seen them herself.

Of course she hadn't seen them fighting, but other people did and now Halibel, Cecils and the Prince are known to be near to Reinhard's level. I don't see why don't take it. The author intent was to hype Reid to Reinhard's level, and to do that he also said that there are other characters near to his level.

Reinhard and Cecilus fought that one time in EX 4, there were a handful of spectators, we don't know what happened at all, and I don't even think that this battle happening is public knowledge. Even if that Silver Flower Dance is where the rumour of Cecilus being close to Reinhard comes from, what about the other ones? Have Halibel and the Prince ever fought Reinhard or Cecilus? Not to our knowledge. Look at our Statements page, if we don't even know the source of the claim, it's definitely not a reliable one. And Tappei's intend may have been to hype Reid to be nearly as strong as Reinhard, but that doesn't mean that those other three being brough up is for the sake of saying that they, too, are the same way.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

if we don't even know the source of the claim, it's definitely not a reliable one.

No, the page says something else.
The source of the claim here Is Rem's statement in Arc 6. How does she know that Halibel and the Prince are close to his level? We don't know, but nothing in the novels cotradicts what Ram said.
And at least Cecils should scale, since as you said there were spectators for Cecils vs Reinhard.
The only thing contradicting Cecils is that Thaeresia's stuff, but it's inconsistent I think...

The fact that he wasn't included in the ranking of the strongest magic users shows us that Tappei neglects to mention certain types of characters in these rankings, such as the Great Spirits

The ranking Is about magic attacks power, not the strongest magic users.
So Puck can be the strongest for his letality, and not for "explosive power".

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

No, the page says something else.
The source of the claim here Is Rem's statement in Arc 6. How does she know that Halibel and the Prince are close to his level? We don't know, but nothing in the novels cotradicts what Ram said.

Thus Ram is not a reliable source of information because she says things that she can't prove are true. The author, who is a more reliable source of information, has already told us where Cecilus places in the ranking and Reinhard tier it ain't.

And at least Cecils should scale, since as you said there were spectators for Cecils vs Reinhard.

How? We don't know what happened and whether Reinhard was fighting seriously or whether Cecilus managed to do anything to him or tank his attacks.

The only thing contradicting Cecils is that Thaeresia's stuff, but it's inconsistent I think...

Cecilus' appearances can be counted on one hand, 'course it's inconsistent, but 2 explicit statements from the author > a non-canon IF + baseless claim from Ram.

The ranking Is about magic attacks power, not the strongest magic users.
So Puck can be the strongest for his letality, and not for "explosive power".

Puck, even in his small form, was a match for Roswaal's explosive power (watch their falshback battle from the OVA), there is no good reason why he wouldn't be on the list.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

How? We don't know what happened and whether Reinhard was fighting seriously or whether Cecilus managed to do anything to him or tank his attacks.

If he wasn't serious he wouldn't have drawn the Reid dragon Sword I think..? And he was asked by Marcos (if I am not wrong) to show Cecils the strength of the Sword Saint. So for a respect thing he wasn't suppressed.
Cecils for sure survived the encounter, he's confirmed to be still alive.

Cecilus' appearances can be counted on one hand, 'course it's inconsistent, but 2 explicit statements from the author > a non-canon IF + baseless claim from Ram.

One of the statements just talk about swordmanship. Reinhard's swordmanship is weaker than Reid's, but he's overall stronger.
I am sure that Cecils and Prime Wilhelm would draw in a swordmanship battle with wood swords, but Cecils is overall stronger since he has better swords and can cover himself with lightning, right?
And even though IFs aren't canon, why should the author change the strength of his own characters? I mean, they were still written by him. He knows how strong they are, why showing something that isn't his idea?
Also, the if is consistent with Ram's statement which in my opinion Is the best source.
And there Is the death of the author, so something that comes from the main source > author's opinion (and he could just have changed It).

Puck, even in his small form, was a match for Roswaal's explosive power (watch their falshback battle from the OVA), there is no good reason why he wouldn't be on the list.

both Puck and Roswaal weren't serious, right?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

If he wasn't serious he wouldn't have drawn the Reid dragon Sword I think..?

He also drew the sword against Theresia who he could have beaten with his pinky finger. Let me rephrase that, Reinhard is pretty much always serious but it's about whether he's going all out or not and whether he has Reid drawn does little to tell us if he is. The sword gets drawn when the sword wants to be drawn which has little to do with whether Reinhard needs the sword to win.

And he was asked by Marcos (if I am not wrong) to show Cecils the strength of the Sword Saint.

Which may or may not require him going all out but it usually doesn't.

So for a respect thing he wasn't suppressed.
Cecils for sure survived the encounter, he's confirmed to be still alive.

Of course he survived but we have nothing to tell us that he injured Reinhard or tanked his full-power attacks. Mind you, this is a sword duel, all the wounds that Cecilus was covered in could easily just be from glancing hits instead of, say, Reinhard using Getsuga Tenshou which he definitely didn't use because he would have deleted the capital.

One of the statements just talk about swordmanship. Reinhard's swordmanship is weaker than Reid's, but he's overall stronger.
I am sure that Cecils and Prime Wilhelm would draw in a swordmanship battle with wood swords, but Cecils is overall stronger since he has better swords and can cover himself with lightning, right?

I already addressed this the last time you brought this up, I'll just repeat what I said then:

You are mistaken, read the Q&A again:

Q: In a comparison purely of swordsmanship, which of Wilhelm in his prime and Cecilus would be stronger?
A: I'd like to say that they'd be evenly matched. Since Cecilus is really strong.

Notice how he answers they're evenly matched "since Cecilus is really strong"? Not skilled, but strong. That's because the question itself is asking about their strength. 純粋な剣術の強さ means "strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.

I'd also consider Reid a poor example because his sword technique, which is described as the pinacle of swordsmanship; it's stated that there is nothing special about it:

In contrast to Julius, who brought out his secret techniques, Reid Astrea’s fighting style was very simple to understand. He simply repeated using the same downward sword slash that let out a light that cut through the world and destroyed everything in its path. There was nothing special about it, and it wasn’t even a special magic attack. Just by waving his sword, the world got burnt by the light. It was something she did not understand. Was Reid Astrea just beyond understanding, or were all Sword Saints like this?

~ Arc 6, Chapter 85

Also, after reading the stories featuring Cecilus, I couldn't spot where all that lightning shit you may find written on his wiki page comes from, so I guess it could just be another case of the people that write that wiki being wrong. And what would better swords entail? Do they give him a stats boost or dura neg or something?

And even though IFs aren't canon, why should the author change the strength of his own characters? I mean, they were still written by him. He knows how strong they are, why showing something that isn't his idea?

It's not about Tappei changing the power levels of the characters on a whim for the sake of an IF, it's about the fact that what was shown in the IF contradicts what Tappei himself told us shortly after he wrote the IF along with the IFs having other inconsistencies.

Also, the if is consistent with Ram's statement which in my opinion Is the best source.

Literally the least credible source of a statement.

And there Is the death of the author, so something that comes from the main source > author's opinion (and he could just have changed It).

Yeah, he could have changed it, because those Q&As came out shortly after Oboreru.

both Puck and Roswaal weren't serious, right?

Define serious, because Puck went true form at one point and Roswaal used his trump card against him.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

"strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.

OF PURE SWORDMANSHIP. So no abilities, not counting having better gear (swords)

t's not about Tappei changing the power levels of the characters on a whim for the sake of an IF, it's about the fact that what was shown in the IF contradicts what Tappei himself told us shortly after he wrote the IF along with the IFs having other inconsistencies.

I never seen a character being stronger or weaker in the IFs, honestly.

And what would better swords entail? Do they give him a stats boost or dura neg or something?

He seems to be stronger with better swords, since Julius defeated Cecils when the latter was using his fifth best sword. Julius literally broke his fifth best sword, but can't compare to Cecils when he is using both Fiend Sword and the Dream Sword, which are part of the so-called Ten Swords of Power.

But we seem to just agree to disagree, I don't think that one of us can change the other idea until new infos.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

OF PURE SWORDMANSHIP. So no abilities, not counting having better gear (swords)

Yes, and swordsmanship comes down who can swing their sword faster, with more force and more skillfully, and Tappei says that they're even because "Cecilus is really strong". He may have more abilities than Wil, but that doesn't make him stronger, per say, just more versatile unless shown/stated otherwise. "Better swords" also entails little, because we have no idea what the abilities of these swords are. This is not a video game where better gear just triples your AP.

He seems to be stronger with better swords, since Julius defeated Cecils when the latter was using his fifth best sword. Julius literally broke his fifth best sword, but can't compare to Cecils when he is using both Fiend Sword and the Dream Sword, which are part of the so-called Ten Swords of Power.

Again, we have not an inkling of what those swords do. They're more durable and maybe sharper, I guess, but that doesn't help us much.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Again, we have not an inkling of what those swords do. They're more durable and maybe sharper, I guess, but that doesn't help us much.

I mean, using two swords of a series called Ten Swords of Power and using normal swords, must there be a gap between them. With his fifth best Sword Cecils lost to Julius!

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Some things i observed from latest arc 6 chapter.

Ram's clairvoyance lets her predict Rai/Ley future moves by sharing his sight, knowing were he puts strength in his muscles etc (literally like a sharigan).

Ram learned Rai's invisible blade technique.

Rai has the knowledge of like thousands of ppl, and said to be like a master of abilities with genius intellect and wisdom.

Od is again equated to the soul. Spirits in bond of ice are said to fight by stripping away their opponents defenses then crushing their od. Spirits should have soul manipulation then.

Ram can share her burdens with Rem, so damage transferal.

Ram's profile should be change from higher with oni mode, to higher via removing shackles.

Is it next change Volcanica's sub-relativistic feat happens? Will wait for that then make a new CRT with all the stuff i said above. As i said before this thread is not good for getting changes evaluated, it's just to discuss tiering stuff freely without spoiling in the discussion thread.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Od is again equated to the soul. Spirits in bond of ice are said to fight by stripping away their opponents defenses then crushing their od. Spirits should have soul manipulation then.

I mean, wasn't it explained that od is life force and not a soul?

Ram's profile should be change from higher with oni mode, to higher via removing shackles.

Agreed, she's higher via deus ex machina.

Is it next change Volcanica's sub-relativistic feat happens?

It's next chapter IIRC. Basically, after he got a bit more serious, his attacks were stated to be "1000 or 10000" faster than Subaru's whip, which is already supersonic by itself. This would put him at MHS+ or Sub-rel. There are also a few things I'd like to get checked with a translator myself in regards to this.

 

[Phoenks]

bump

 

[Starmegalo]

Continuing from here.

Low Tiers

The low tiers, meaning Rom and the rest of the Felt camp not named Reinhard, should be significantly above 10-A. In Arc 1, Rom was able to easily destroy a table (he does this mutiple times in the anime) which is 9-B. There is also a case to be made about a WN statement about Rom being able to smash a car, which would be 9-A, because we know that the LN is not always canon in every aspect and a bunch of cut were made "because of the page count" while sometimes the anime even retcons the LN.

Mid Tiers

As already established, the calc used to scale the mid tiers is bunk and their 8-A rating needs to go. They should instead scale to Al Goa (the low end was accepted) as it is an Al level magic which even Mimi, who's down there with Aldebaran, can cast. This is further supported by the fact that Otto's Al Dona, which is powerful enough to pulverize trees, did nothing to Garfiel. Now, pulverizing just a single tree is 0.56 Tons of TNT which is 8-C, and if the amount of trees that Al Dona can pulverize is greater than 4 (note that the word used in Japanese is 木々, which usually means 'many trees'), this spell would also be High 8-C like Al Goa. Now, while Garfiel is resistant to earth magic, it's doubtful it's anywhere near Reinhard's 80% resistances, and even if nerf to damage to 8-C, he was still unscratched by it. Another piece of evidence I'll supply to help the scaling is the fact that 8 y/o Rem was already capable of smashing large trees with her attacks, which is 9-A+.

High Tiers

The high tiers scaling to Puck's true form was entirely based on a fake translation stating that Roswaal was tied with him in power, so it's bunk. It's even contradicted by the fact Roswaal is comparable to Echidna who's much weaker than Typhon and Daphne who are weaker than Puck's true form by virtue of the fact that he made the top 5 while they didn't. The high tiers would need to be rescaled to Puck's small form based on Roswaal and Melakuera being able to match him in combat, meaning they go down to Low 7-B.

God Tiers

Needless to say, Sekhmet loses her 7-A rating because the characters she can one-shot are no longer 7-B. The ratings of the other god tiers are also under question and they will likely be downgraded to 'At least 7-B'.

---

Abilities Revisions

Beatrice gets (goes without say that this will be added to Subaru's profile as well):

• Black Hole Creation with Ul Shamak.
• Durability Negation via Minya's transmutation properties.
• Illusion Creation
• Sense Manipulation

Julius — based on the events of EX Volume 4, Julius has:

• Statistics Amplification with Yang magic.
• Statistics Reduction with Yin magic.
• Enhanced Senses thanks to his Yang magic buffs. He can also sense shifts in the amtosphere and detect heat sources via his spirits.
• Extrasensory Perception for being able to to detect the guards outside of his room and sensing Cecilus' presence when even Ferris couldn't.

Reinhard gets:

• Empathic Manipulation with the Divine Protection of Empathy.
• Automatic Translation via Otto's Divine Protection of Soul Language.
• Clairvoyance via Ram's Divine Protection of Clairvoyance.
• Earth Manipulation with Garfiel's Divine Protection of Earth Spirits and possibly Elemental Manipulation because he possesses the other elemental counterparts to this blessing.
• Spatial Manipulation for this where he not only bent but also cut space. And just to make sure, here is a better translation of that last part as I found out that sentence is just copypasta from the WN of Arc 1. So Reinhard can cut space like Reid can, makes sense as they use the same ability.
• Reactive Power Level via the Divine Protection of Second Sight.
• Animal Manipulation with Meili's Divine Protection of Magic Manipulation which allows her to control witch beasts.

Ley and Roy:

• Their authority isn't Power Absorption as their victims retain their powers, it is instead the exact definition of Soul Absorption.
• With Emilia's name, they get Weapon Creation and, though we haven't seen them use it, they might have Danmaku if they can replicate Icicle Line.

Reid:

• His resistance to Memory Manipulation needs to be scrapped because not only does he not remember Emilia after Ley ate her name, but he also was also eaten by Roy. Him taking control of his body later should be considered resistance to Soul Absorption.

Shaula gets:

• Regeneration (Low-Mid) in her scorpion form.
• Danmaku with Infinitied Hell Snipe.

Wilhelm gets:

• Resistance to Perception Manipulation for seeing through Emilia's cloak.
• Aura which he has had since youth and still has, so it goes for all of his keys.

Theresia gets:

• Aura, the same one as Wilhelm's.

Sphinx gets:

• Aura.

Felt gets:

• Resistance to Empathic Manipulation for being resistant to Sirius' authority.

Satella loses:

• Status Effect Inducement, because she has never been stated to be able to use Yin magic.
• That part about her Unseen Hands being invisible needs to go, too, because they aren't invisible. Actually, this is possibly just an application of shadow control as they were never called 'Unseen Hands' or 'Authority of Sloth' beyond some mistranslations.

Daphne loses, like, half of her abilities as I have no idea where they came from:

• No idea where Empathic Manipulation came from.
• No idea where Petrification came from.
• No idea where Regeneration came from.
• Memory Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Power Absorption are all abilities possessed by Ley, Roy and Louis but not Daphne. I'd assume the same thing goes for Duplication because Daphne cannot divide herself in two.

Carmilla loses:

• Her rating, because she has no combat ability whatsoever. We have her as '7-B with Magic' but what magic? She has none and her authority is a non-combat one.
• Superhuman Physical Characteristics. She's 10-B physically, that's already on her profile.

Minerva:

• Why dose she have Regeneration instead of Healing?

Pandora loses:

• Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Why does she even have this in the first place?

Spirits (Puck, Beatrice and Melakuera) should have Inorganic Physiology as they are made out of mana as opposed to organic matter.

Pandora bashes Regulus to the ground with ease. Dunno about the calculation of this. However isn't this quite superhuman? I am not sure, just saying why she could have that.

Pandora's beauty is in writing itself. The QA where Tappei says Emilia most beautiful is a QA. I don't even remember Emilia being called most beautiful so it might even be a translation mistake. In any case I would believe writing over QA in this case. Not to mention Pandora's beauty stated as if it had literal power and it can be used. Emilia's beauty never had a statement like this. At least I do not know.

Pandora heavily implied to be able to see Unseen Hands with how something reflected in her eyes in anime and both in writing and anime she does warn Regulus.

I do not know if this is acknowledged in her threat but Pandora could easily move and was unaffected by Emilia's freezing. Of course we saw that Pandora gets killed and frozen many times but that can simply be Emilia's perception of the situation. If it's not, it's a big inconsistency since in next scene she just moves to her side without being affected. This is the same freezing that can freeze flying dragons.

 

[Starmegalo]

Doesn't Echidna scares off that one Dragon in the side story that takes place in 400 y ago? Which Puck couldn't defeat if I recall right.