• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact AKM sama if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.

Re:Zero Re:Visions 2nd Cour

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Speaking of Puck, his durability should just be Small City level with barriers, no likely included, his barriers blatantly tanked Melakuera's attacks.

Could have also sworn i remember him punching Melakuera, might be an argument his physicals are small city level too. Though would have to check if that was actually the case.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Idk, not the first time this has happened since the wiki update, pictures just don't show up sometimes.

Usually goes back to normal after a bit.
 
972
144
We should change Carol's pseudo-flight to Mid-Air Jump, which is part of Acrobatics for some reason, because she hasn't been shown using it consecutively to fly.

Since Sphinx is basically just discount Dona in the body of one of the Ryuzus, she should have the same abilities as them like Self-Sustenance and Inorganic Physiology:
Volume 12 said:
“As a result, after the Witch’s death, only the facility remained, and even today the number of replicas continues to grow… It is all a matter of mana. That we require no material resources to live is the single saving grace.”
These words spoken, Ryuzu audibly sipped her tea with the same mouth that had just announced she required neither food nor drink.
“…You seem to drink tea just fine, though.”
“This is a hobby of mine. It is an individual quirk I acquired over the course of a long life.”
Volume 13 said:
“Our replica bodies are not of flesh and blood, but false Odo shrouded in mana. Mana depletes according to how active the body is. It is insufficient for even a full day’s worth of activity.”
“I see, it’s just like with spirits! So to make sure your job doesn’t go unfilled during the time you can’t materialize, a substitute Ryuzu does the job for you!”
 
972
144
I calced that ice spear that Emilia shot at Pete in ep 23, it's 40.487 Tons. This should go for her first key, "8-B with magic", and the second key should probably be "at least 8-B with magic" because she got much stronger after regaining her powers.
 
972
144
Something else we missed, Sphinx has fire magic:
EX Volume 2 said:
He cut his way to the center of the horde, where two zombies stood, unmoving. The undead pressed against him, as if they were trying to protect something. But an overhead chop and two swift kicks delivered a second death. He brought his sword back and was about to stab, when—
“Hrk!”
A gout of flame spouted in front of him, forcing him to jump back. Wilhelm slashed wildly at the approaching fire until the air in front of him shimmered, and the empty space suddenly filled with a small humanoid figure.
 
972
144
Ok, if Stride's speed is below average human, there is no way he could have reacted to Grimm's shield flying at him.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Stride is walking corpse, his speed being supersonic is nonsensical, it's an inconsistency.

At best we can say the Yang Sword maybe boosted his speed.
 
972
144
It has never been stated that the Yang Sword can boost stats. If you have him blocking the shield as an AP feat, you must also have it as a speed feat. Otherwise you should just scrap it as a whole.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Stride himself has never performed any ap feats, and is stated to be a walking corpse, his physical stats therefore are low, however when he used the sword he could deflect something from a High 8-C person, meaning the sword is High 8-C.

Not to mention said sword also harms him, clearly it's above his normal abilities. Denying that the sword is above his normal abilities, i don't think is a viable solution.

However to say that the walking corspe of a man is comparable in speed to superhuman characters, makes no sense.

This doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation.
 
972
144
That makes no sense. It's one thing if he injured a High 8-C character with the sword, then the sword would simply have dura neg or something, but he blocked a High 8-C attack with it. The weapon being strong does not get around the fact that when it and the shield clash Stride's arm which is holding the sword will experience most of the force that was behind the shield hitting it. To get around that fact the sword would need to have the ability to nullify force or something which it doesn't. It's just a strong sword that burns things, that's it.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
So you want Stride to be High 8-C in stats with Supersonic speed, despite the fact he is suppose to be weak and doesn't himself fight instead using pawns?

Or you want him to just be Below Average Human in all stats then, despite the fact the sword is a 1 time use that would have also burned him alive if not for him cutting his own arm off? Not to mention we don't know much about the sword besides its a light sword that burns things.

Both of these options have inconsistencies.

Come back to this later, have to leave now.
 
972
144
If there is confilcting information, our only option may just be putting him at Unknown.

We may not know much about the sword but that doesn't mean we're free to assume it has abilities it has never stated, shown, or implied to have. And the reason why the sword burned his arm is because he's no worthy of it. You can see that even Priscilla's father was burned to ashes when it came time for the emperor selection, even though he must have been worthy of holding the sword up to that point and fought all of his half-siblings to the death with it in order to become emperor.
 
972
144
Chapter 82 additions

Whatever the hell this technique is:
As if assaulting Ram, Batenkaitos swung both of his feet around whilst midair.
The following instant, the created distortion of space came in contact with Ram’s shoulder, and slashed her clothes, skin and flesh. A leftover souvenir of a blade invisible in the air, an impudent trap brought forth by wind magic.

Ram: “Something of this levelーー”

Ley: “You’re saying that you will blast it away with wind? Won’t do won’t do, useless useless! As it’s something that’s been fixed in space, you see~! Even nee-sama wouldn’t be able to kick it away, how unfortunate, too ba~d!”

Seeing through her plan beforehand, Batenkaitos, with a bloodstained smile, kicked the air.
Though he was not truly kicking the air, but was using the blades which had slashed Ram as a foothold, walking aeriallyーー using those whose positions were known only by him as footing, he freely flew about the spiral staircase, which heavily made use of the tower.
Howeverーー,

Ram: “ーー『Clairvoyance』.”

Even if she weren’t able to capture that within her perception, should she be able to overlap with the field of vision of established humans, she could grasp the hiding spot even with the slightest change in consciousness.
As『Gluttony』tried to escape upwards and upwards into the air by using his traps as footings, Ram overlapped with her opponent’s field of vision and using the same as footing, bolted towards him with conviction.

Ley: “Huh ~tsu! Ahahahahahaha! Seriously, nee-sama? Are you for real!?”

Ram: “What a Barusu-like thing to say. ーーIt’d help if you’d stop this tug of war.”

Batenkaitos was surprised, and having jumped through the air faster than his ascent, Ram looked below towards his creepy face.
And, she mercilessly drived in the bottom of her shoe towards that face, with an opened mouth lined up with sharp fangs.

Ley: “Bh.”

Ram: “Alright, let’s see how many times you will be able to get a taste of Ram’s shoe until you fall below.”

With his snout crushed, Batenkaitos’ petite frame rolled over midair.
With the vigour of his ascend killed off, this time『Gluttony』was made to fall directly below due to the strength of Ram’s kick at the same pace.
Pursuing him, Ram raised both of her hands towards the heavens, yielding wind her palms and swiftly downwards, towards the falling Batenkaitos’ face, hammered a second kickーー no, the third, the fourth, and continued hammering kicks in.

Mercilessly, Ram’s heel kicked into his nose, his teeth, his chin, his forehead with each shot.
She had found that sneering face, and that mouth which time and again called Ram “Nee-sama” to be unpleasant.
She intended to spoil them both, as their descent yet resumed.
By the wayーー,

Ram: “It’s not Ram’s fault even if you get hit by the traps you laid. You reap what you sow.”

Ley: “Gh! Ghya! Higi~i~i~ ~tsu!”

En route to fall by the kick, the invisible blades he had laid in the empty air cleaved Batenkaitos’ body.
He was bleeding, and it seemed a few of the wounds had gouged his flesh as well, but Ram shall not ignore them.

Rai can also use Solar Eclipse on his own, but the side effect is that his personalities start getting mixed up.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Addition for who, Rai? He already has spatial manipulation, if it's about the the invisible blades he uses to jump, invisibility i guess.
 
972
144
Just the technique in general, it should go under notable attacks. It gives him some arial mobility too (Ram will also use this in a few chapters, I think). And I honestly think we should just change that to short range teleport, spacial manip is just one of the ways teleportation is achieved.
 
656
178
@Celestial_Pegasus @OppaiSenpai5

You two seem the only ones who are taking care of the verse. I would like to ask you why Reinhardt got downgrade from Multi Continent Level to Mountain Level and why he hasn't light speed reaction and combat speed anymore (I am just curious, I am not saying that you did something wrong (Sorry if I sound like It), just wanna know the reasons).
Also, I would like to help by creating some pages such as Halibel and Cecils! I know they're from IFs, but they should keep the same stuff in the original story. (The IFs just change in story, but characters' abilities, strength seem to be the same)
 
972
144
Reinhard's High 6-A was based on statements about him destroying the world from Q&As, but those Q&As should be taken with with a mountain of salt because Tappei says some very dumb shit in them that either shouldn't be taken seriously or contradicts what has been established in the story. To begin with, Re:Zero's world is flat and has only one continent we know of, so blowing it up may very well not qualify for High 6-A (there is a calc trying to estimate the size of the world, but the results are simply ridiculous coming out at 1 country having over 40% of Earth's surface area). Plus, who's to say that by "easily destroy the world" Tappei means he can do it in one attack?

The FTL rating came from Jiwald meeting the criteria for real light, but due it being dodged by EX characters that are clearly not relativistic (they have more than enough anti-feats) the entire thing being SoL becomes highly questionable, less literally every character ends up with relativistic to FTL speed. Not to mention that looking at the raws reveals that the statement about it being as fast as light is clearly hyperbolic, and that there is a similar statement about Shaula's Hell Snipe. Well, the god tiers are going to have at least sub-relativistic speed thanks to Volcanica's feats when we get the latest chapters translated.

The IFs are full of inconsistencies, like Subaru killing Petelgeuse or Emilia stabbing Reinhard, so they aren't a valid source of scaling. Pegasus already made a profile for Cecilus after we got EX 4 translated, but Halibel lacks a canon appearance.
 
656
178
The downgrades makes sense to me (I still think that Reinhardt is above Mountain Level, but lacks of feats, maybe a possibly Multi-Continent Level would be better, but whatever).
But I disagree about IFs, Emilia capable of stabbing Reinhardt was something explained in the if:

"But if it was not an attack which held hostility and intent to kill, Reinhardt’s intuitive reaction could not be used to avoid it. Of, if his Divine Blessings had been working properly, definitely Reinhardt’s defense would not have been able to be penetrated either.

But, this place was Pandemonium, and that Emilia herself could not make up her own mind―――That had, in Reinhardt, left a fatal gap."

I don't see any inconsistencies here.
And Subaru killing Petalguese? What's wrong with that? You think you can't stab someone with High durability with piercing weapons? In a lot of verses this Is totally normal, see One Piece, see The witcher..
People with massive durability can still be pierced by fodders with swords, knifes..
 
972
144
But I disagree about IFs, Emilia capable of stabbing Reinhardt was something explained in the if:

"But if it was not an attack which held hostility and intent to kill, Reinhardt’s intuitive reaction could not be used to avoid it. Of, if his Divine Blessings had been working properly, definitely Reinhardt’s defense would not have been able to be penetrated either.

But, this place was Pandemonium, and that Emilia herself could not make up her own mind―――That had, in Reinhardt, left a fatal gap."

I don't see any inconsistencies here.
This is refering to his auto-dodge and projectile deflection blessings. Reinhard's divine protections have little impact on his power level, he'd be about a strong as he is normally without them, so Emilia shouldn't be able to scratch him.
And Subaru killing Petalguese? What's wrong with that? You think you can't stab someone with High durability with piercing weapons? In a lot of verses this Is totally normal, see One Piece, see The witcher..
People with massive durability can still be pierced by fodders with swords, knifes..
Even if that's true, there's still the fact that Pete went out like a bitch after getting stabbed once, while in the canon timeline, even after being beaten to a pulp and stabbed with a blade that burns alway souls by Julius, and after getting his entire lower half crushed, the guy still found enough stregth to chase after Subaru through an entire forest and almost kill him. Even after he got his entire body (or what remained of it) set on fire, he still kept going until his body was pulverized shortly after. Getting stabbed before has also not bothered him that much (see Wilhelm stabbing one of his fingers through, only to have him pull a knife on him and self-destruct), while in Pride, he kinda just dropped dead.
 
656
178
Again, being capable of piercing a top tier character is not an inconsistency, in a lot of verses this Is just common (see Zelda, The witcher, One Piece...), that's just how Tappei sees things, even Subaru can pierce a top tier character if the top tier character gives him the opportunity to do it. (Elsa, yeah I know she's not a top tier but she still shouldn't get pierce according to you, has to dodge Subaru's slashes or she would get hurt.)
So Emilia stabbing Reinhardt it's not an inconsistency.

About Petalguese, It Is confirmed in the If that Subaru got his vital point (and he did hundreds of attempts to finally achieve this).

So I don't see why IFs shouldn't be taken in consideration, they're just different stories, but the world and the characters are exactly the same.
 
972
144
Again, being capable of piercing a top tier character is not an inconsistency
It's literally inconsistent with itself. See Ayamatsu: Elsa's blade shattered upon hitting Reinhard's hand (it shouldn't even have been able to reach him due to auto-dodge blessings though), but in Oboreru Emilia's sword easily pierced Reinhard?
in a lot of verses this Is just common (see Zelda, The witcher, One Piece...), that's just how Tappei sees things
Really now? How about that time in the Sword Demon Ballads when it was stated that a blade would simply bounce off upon hitting Shasuke's steel-like skin? Or when Patrasche bit into Garfiel's shoulder doing zero damage (remember, a bite from a velociraptor would be piercing, and no weaker than a sword thrust from a teenage boy)?
Elsa, yeah I know she's not a top tier but she still shouldn't get pierce according to you, has to dodge Subaru's slashes or she would get hurt.
What are you talking about? When did Subaru ever slash at Elsa?
So Emilia stabbing Reinhardt it's not an inconsistency.
Even though she can't do literally anything to someone of equal power – Volcanica?
About Petalguese, It Is confirmed in the If that Subaru got his vital point.
He stabbed his heart, but I don't think that's more vital than literally half of his body.
 
656
178
It's literally inconsistent with itself. See Ayamatsu: Elsa's blade shattered upon hitting Reinhard's hand (it shouldn't even have been able to reach him due to auto-dodge blessings though), but in Oboreru Emilia's sword easily pierced Reinhard?
I don't remember it too much, didn't Reinhard just blocked the sword with his hand?
Really now? How about that time in the Sword Demon Ballads when it was stated that a blade would simply bounce off upon hitting Shasuke's steel-like skin? Or when Patrasche bit into Garfiel's shoulder doing zero damage (remember, a bite from a velociraptor would be piercing, and no weaker than a sword thrust from a teenage boy)?
I am talking about humans with normal skin of course. In One piece for example, human characters, even top tiers such as Whitebeard, can be pierced, but Kaido who is not stronger than Whitebeard can't be pierced by blades because of his particular skin.


What are you talking about? When did Subaru ever slash at Elsa?
No, and that's the point. Why didn't Elsa take Subaru's slashes if she can't be pierce?

ven though she can't do literally anything to someone of equal power – Volcanica?
Volcanica is a dragon, of course his skin is harden than a human's one. You can be superhuman as much as you want, you can withstand bombs and other stuff but you can still be pierced by piercing weapons if you are human, that's how a lot of verses works.
He stabbed his heart, but I don't think that's more vital than literally half of his body.
A lot of characters can still move without half of his body, half of their head and other stuff but they stop doing anything after you hit their "core".
Again, I don't see why we shouldn't take IFs in consideration.
 
972
144
I don't remember it too much, didn't Reinhard just blocked the sword with his hand?
Yeah, he blocked the knife with his hand, and then it shattered because Reinhard's hand is tougher than the knife.
I am talking about humans with normal skin of course. In One piece for example, human characters, even top tiers such as Whitebeard, can be pierced, but Kaido who is not stronger than Whitebeard can't be pierced by blades because of his particular skin.
It's good that you're talking about normal humans with normal skin and all, but characters in Re:Zero have their bodies strengthened by their internal mana in the same way that Shasuke does, so the same should extend to them.

And why would I care how it is in One Piece?
No, and that's the point. Why didn't Elsa take Subaru's slashes if she can't be pierce?
What point? When did Subaru ever even wield a slashing weapon agains Elsa? Never, to my recollection.
Volcanica is a dragon, of course his skin is harden than a human's one. You can be superhuman as much as you want, you can withstand bombs and other stuff but you can still be pierced by piercing weapons if you are human, that's how a lot of verses works.
Reinhard's skin clearly withstood Elsa's knife, so there is no reason why he should be injured by Emilia's sword.
A lot of characters can still move without half of his body, half of their head and other stuff but they stop doing anything after you hit their "core".
When has Petelgeuse been stated to have such a "core"?
 
656
178
It's good that you're talking about normal humans with normal skin and all, but characters in Re:Zero have their bodies strengthened by their internal mana in the same way that Shasuke does, so the same should extend to them.
Oh right, then it's even easier! So when a character has his mana covering his body, his durability is enhanced. Reinhard probably didn't have it when Emilia stabbed him and maybe it's the same for Petalguese since it was a surprise attack.
What point? When did Subaru ever even wield a slashing weapon agains Elsa? Never, to my recollection.
I meant the spiked club, lmao.
When has Petelgeuse been stated to have such a "core"?
I mean, in the Wrath if Subaru is confident that he killed him because he got a vital point, this means that Petelgeuse can live without half of his body, but he dies when you hit a vital point.
 
972
144
Oh right, then it's even easier! So when a character has his mana covering his body, his durability is enhanced. Reinhard probably didn't have it when Emilia stabbed him and maybe it's the same for Petalguese since it was a surprise attack.
By that logic, any surprise attack could circumvent their durability, not just stabby-stabs.
I meant the spiked club, lmao.
A club doesn't do piercing nor slashing damage. If your argument is that Elsa had to dodge Subaru's attacks, then your argument is that it's just inconsistent.
I mean, in the Wrath if Subaru is confident that he killed him because he got a vital point, this means that Petelgeuse can live without half of his body, but he dies when you hit a vital point.
Julius also stabbed Pete in the heart, and then proceded to pour destructive magical energy into the wound, but that did less damage than Subaru in Ayamatsu.
 
656
178
By that logic, any surprise attack could circumvent their durability, not just stabby-stabs.
I mean yeah? But surprise attacks don't generally work on Reinhard, so I don't see any problem. Emilia could do that because of the explaination in the if.

Julius also stabbed Pete in the heart, and then proceded to pour destructive magical energy into the wound, but that did less damage than Subaru in Ayamatsu.
Re-watching it, Pete in the original story has some kind of emotion power-up, because he has seen Satella and she refused him and he went crazy. I think that's because of that. This never happened in the Pride If. (Yeah emotions can be a power-up in Re:Zero, see Wilhelm)
 
972
144
I mean yeah? But surprise attacks don't generally work on Reinhard, so I don't see any problem. Emilia could do that because of the explaination in the if.
Then why aren't there any other examples of exactly that, characters getting injured by people orders of magnitute weaker than them because they were off guard? You know, the only time this thing has been brough up was in Garf vs Ram when Ram had "ran out of mana she used for physical enhancement" leaving her "only as strong as her petite appearance suggested"; right after this was stated, she proceeded to dodge attacks from Garfiel, showing that the whole thing is bull because she's still able to dodge attacks from Garfiel even without the mana enhancement.
Re-watching it, Pete in the original story has some kind of emotion power-up, because he has seen Satella and she refused him and he went crazy. I think that's because of that. This never happened in the Pride If. (Yeah emotions can be a power-up in Re:Zero, see Wilhelm)
Emotions making you more powerful in fiction is one thing, Petelgeuse being able to make use of his already dead body is another. And rereading this again, Subaru then proceeded to kill Pete by stabbing him in the brain. What's the explanation here, that he was already near dead so his durability wouldn't matter?
 
656
178
Then why aren't there any other examples of exactly that, characters getting injured by people orders of magnitute weaker than them because they were off guard? You know, the only time this thing has been brough up was in Garf vs Ram when Ram had "ran out of mana she used for physical enhancement" leaving her "only as strong as her petite appearance suggested"; right after this was stated, she proceeded to dodge attacks from Garfiel, showing that the whole thing is bull because she's still able to dodge attacks from Garfiel even without the mana enhancement.
Dodging Is a thing, taking damage from stuff who wouldn't hurt you if you use mana is totally another thing. I never said that not using mana makes you slower, I am saying that Emilia stabbing Reinhard, while he isn't use any mana covering his body, while his blessing aren't working and while Emilia did It without any kill intention Is consistent.
Emotions making you more powerful in fiction is one thing, Petelgeuse being able to make use of his already dead body is another. And rereading this again, Subaru then proceeded to kill Pete by stabbing him in the brain. What's the explanation here, that he was already near dead so his durability wouldn't matter?
Petalguese in the Envy route (the original story) was more persistent because he has seen that Satella didn't love him, so he got you know the classic emotion power-boost and that's why he could move without half body after being stabbed in the heart, also he recquired time to do so.
In the Wrath If he got stabbed in the heart with a surprise attack and got hit in the brain while injured. He didn't even had enough time to be the monster he became in the Envy story.
I don't see how all of this should be something not consistent.
IFs are just different stories, as I said before, Tappei itself said that the original story Is the Envy route.
 
972
144
Dodging Is a thing, taking damage from stuff who wouldn't hurt you if you use mana is totally another thing. I never said that not using mana makes you slower
It should though, judging from what Tappei said. He also explained that someone like Felix, whose body is very weak to begin with, wouldn't get anywhere by strengthening his body, despite the vast amount of mana he possesses. So this mana strengthening isn't all that if you are weak to begin with, and since Ram was able to dodge Garf's attacks and survive the force of her own attacks without mana, we can conclude that this mana boost is negligible. Lacking mana is not a good enough explanation for why someone would get injured by someone thousands of times weaker than them because the boost they get from mana isn't all that big in the first place.
I am saying that Emilia stabbing Reinhard, while he isn't use any mana covering his body, while his blessing aren't working and while Emilia did It without any kill intention Is consistent.
First of all, those last two points have nothing to do with whether or not the attack is strong enough to injure Reinhard. Second of all, Reinhard not having mana strengthening is your conjecture trying to explain away Emilia stabbing Reinhard. Again, if catching someone off guard is enough to circumvent their durability, why don't we see people doing more often? If your enemy is someone as strong as you, and not Reinhard, you'd basically be guarantied a one-shot, but that's not what we see happening when someone manages to get the jumo on someone else.
Petalguese in the Envy route (the original story) was more persistent because he has seen that Satella didn't love him, so he got you know the classic emotion power-boost and that's why he could move without half body after being stabbed in the heart, also he recquired time to do so.
In the Wrath If he got stabbed in the heart with a surprise attack and got hit in the brain while injured. He didn't even had enough time to be the monster he became in the Envy story.
In both cases that body was already dead, and he had the time in the *Pride IF, his body was still there–and in arguably better shape–and so were his enemies.
I don't see how all of this should be something not consistent.
IFs are just different stories, as I said before, Tappei itself said that the original story Is the Envy route.
Unlike the Envy route, the rest of the routes are not canon (especially the Lust IF).

Not like there aren't other contradictions, like Cecilus' power level not matching with what the Q&As lead us to believe.
 
656
178
First of all, those last two points have nothing to do with whether or not the attack is strong enough to injure Reinhard. Second of all, Reinhard not having mana strengthening is your conjecture trying to explain away Emilia stabbing Reinhard. Again, if catching someone off guard is enough to circumvent their durability, why don't we see people doing more often? If your enemy is someone as strong as you, and not Reinhard, you'd basically be guarantied a one-shot, but that's not what we see happening when someone manages to get the jumo on someone else.
Because it's hard to catching someone off guard in Re:Zero, that's why It doesn't happen so currently.


It should though, judging from what Tappei said. He also explained that someone like Felix, whose body is very weak to begin with, wouldn't get anywhere by strengthening his body, despite the vast amount of mana he possesses. So this mana strengthening isn't all that if you are weak to begin with, and since Ram was able to dodge Garf's attacks and survive the force of her own attacks without mana, we can conclude that this mana boost is negligible. Lacking mana is not a good enough explanation for why someone would get injured by someone thousands of times weaker than them because the boost they get from mana isn't all that big in the first place.
But Felix Is not Reinhard. Reinhard can absorb an incredibly high amount of mana.
According to the Artificial Spirit Echidna, Reinhard's gate is unable to release the mana inside of his body back out into the atmosphere, though she mentions that he is able to absorb an incredible amount and that it doesn't cause any harm to his body as he uses all of his mana to boost his physical abilities. Because of this, he can make others unable to use any magic or spirit magic while he's absorbing mana. Also, Reinhard has no affinity with magic, making him unable to use it at all.

In both cases that body was already dead, and he had the time in the *Pride IF, his body was still there–and in arguably better shape–and so were his enemies.
Yeah, Pride If, sorry for the mistake.
But only in the Envy route he has got a power-up boost because he was rejected by Satella.
 
972
144
Because it's hard to catching someone off guard in Re:Zero, that's why It doesn't happen so currently.
But surprise attacks have been pulled off on multiple occasions with no sign of anyone's durability being circumvented.
But Felix Is not Reinhard. Reinhard can absorb an incredibly high amount of mana.
According to the Artificial Spirit Echidna, Reinhard's gate is unable to release the mana inside of his body back out into the atmosphere, though she mentions that he is able to absorb an incredible amount and that it doesn't cause any harm to his body as he uses all of his mana to boost his physical abilities. Because of this, he can make others unable to use any magic or spirit magic while he's absorbing mana. Also, Reinhard has no affinity with magic, making him unable to use it at all.
Reinhard is already more than strong enough even without the mana absorption. See arc 1 when he was holding back as much as possible to let Emilia heal Rom, he was still absolutely toying with Elsa. And when he does decide to absorb mana, it becomes immediately obvious because there are side effects like how the temperature of the loot house dropped or how Emilia became drowsy; it's been outright stated that Reinhard causes damage to his surroundings when he does that. And if other are unable to use magic when he's absorbing mana, then that would mean that he wasn't absorbing mana when he fought Regulus because Emilia was using magic all the time. Reinhard has every reason not to absorb mana, because it's harmful to others nearby, but during Oboreru he would also have had every reason to keep his defences up at all times, because while he might have beaten Cecilus, he still had Halibel, the world's best assassin, to deal with, meaning he should be especially worried about getting stabbed in the back.
 
656
178
he would also have had every reason to keep his defences up at all times, because while he might have beaten Cecilus, he still had Halibel, the world's best assassin, to deal with, meaning he should be especially worried about getting stabbed in the back
He can sense when someone has kill intention....
So not having his durability high in that moment wouldn't have changed nothing, because he would have dodged.
 
972
144
There are still other inconsistencies, like how the Q&As says that Cecilus is only around young Wilhelm and Theresia's level, who would get one-shotted in a serious fight with Reinhard, but he not only gave Rein a good fight, but he also made it out alive.

And "he was caught off guard" is still the flimsiest of excuses for why Emilia would be able to injure a character that's many, many orders of magniture stronger than her. There is a point at which it's no longer believable, and when there is a difference of over one million times you've about reached that point where PIS becomes the more likely explanation.
 
656
178
There are still other inconsistencies, like how the Q&As says that Cecilus is only around young Wilhelm and Theresia's level, who would get one-shotted in a serious fight with Reinhard, but he not only gave Rein a good fight, but he also made it out alive.

And "he was caught off guard" is still the flimsiest of excuses for why Emilia would be able to injure a character that's many, many orders of magniture stronger than her. There is a point at which it's no longer believable, and when there is a difference of over one million times you've about reached that point where PIS becomes the more likely explanation.
Sorry, but I disagree. Tappei clearly tried to give any possible explaination about Emilia stabbing Reinhard so that no one could say It was an inconsistency. I would understand if that just happened without any explaination, but the author clearly did all he could so that no one could scream "inconsistency". He explained that because of the Pandemonium he couldn't properly use his blessings, that he couldn't dodge because Emilia did it without any kill intention. He literally explained anything. This just means that a far weaker character can hurt a far stronger character in some cases, that's current in every verse.
About Q&As, Tappei just said that Cecils' skills with his blades are equal to that of Wilhelm. But that doesn't mean they're overall equal. He even said that Reid Is more skilled than Reinhard. Cecils is clearly overall stronger because of his speed, he's Indeed the fastest of the verse.
 
972
144
Sorry, but I disagree. Tappei clearly tried to give any possible explaination about Emilia stabbing Reinhard so that no one could say It was an inconsistency. I would understand if that just happened without any explaination, but the author clearly did all he could so that no one could scream "inconsistency". He explained that because of the Pandemonium he couldn't properly use his blessings, that he couldn't dodge because Emilia did it without any kill intention. He literally explained anything. This just means that a far weaker character can hurt a far stronger character in some cases, that's current in every verse.
Tappei only explained why the attack connected, not why it did damage to him. It's stated that there was no killing intent behind the attack, so Reinhard couldn't sense it coming, and that his divine protections weren't working. However, Tappei has stated that losing all of his divine protections would barely have an impact on Reinhard's strength, so we can conclude that the text references the DPs that make Reinhard auto dodge attacks and the one that protects him from projectiles, and not some blessing that makes him much stronger. You also can't say that "a far weaker character can hurt a far stronger character in some cases" because we have cases like Elsa in Ayamatsu not being able to even scratch Reinhard. All logic dictates that the difference in power between the god tiers and the mid tiers is far too great for the mid tiers to be able to do anything, and if you have instances where that's the case (Elsa vs Reinhard in Ayamatsu) and instances where it isn't (Emilia vs Reinhard in Oboreru), then that means there are inconsistencies. You can't use such a broad excuse like "weaker characters injure stronger ones all the time" when that's literally not the case, I can't think of any other times when a character injured someone millions of times stronger in Re:Zero besides the case with Reinhard in Oboreru and Petelgeuse in Ayamatsu, so they're inconsistencies. And explanations like "they must not have had their bodies strengthened by mana" is not a real explanation that was given for why it happened, it's merely your conjecture trying to explain away the inconsistencies.



About Q&As, Tappei just said that Cecils' skills with his blades are equal to that of Wilhelm. But that doesn't mean they're overall equal. He even said that Reid Is more skilled than Reinhard. Cecils is clearly overall stronger because of his speed, he's Indeed the fastest of the verse.
You are mistaken, read the Q&A again:
Q: In a comparison purely of swordsmanship, which of Wilhelm in his prime and Cecilus would be stronger?
A: I'd like to say that they'd be evenly matched. Since Cecilus is really strong.
Notice how he answers they're evenly matched "since Cecilus is really strong"? Not skilled, but strong. That's because the question itself is asking about their strength. 純粋な剣術の強さ means "strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.

This is further supported by another Q&A:
Q: If Thearesia fought with Cecilus, who would win?
A: That's a very delicate question, isn't it. Thearesia has no experience with fighting with an equal and being pressured, so I think Thearesia would lose due to the difference in experience.
Tappei has previous stated that if Theresia (and Wilhelm) was to fight Reinhard, she'd die in one hit. So, if Theresia gets one-shotted by Reinhard while Cecilus can put up a fight against him, Cecilus should be able to easily beat Theresia, no? No, that's not the case, Tappei answers the question by first saying that it's a delicate scenario (which it wouldn't be if Cecilus was as strong as Oboreru implies), and proceeds to tell you that Theresia would lose due to inexperience rather than anything else (he literally says that Cecilus is her equal).

Cecilus has also never been stated to be the fastest in the verse, and there are no feats to support such a thing either. Again, if Cecilus really was so fast that he can get the upper hand on Reinhard, he should utterly demolish Wilhelm and Theresia, which is not the case.

That point about Reid is also of no help to your argument, because while Reid is more skilled, Tappei has stated that Reinhard would have a tough time beating Reid if he can't draw the Dragon Sword against him, and that if Reinhard were to be in arc 6, the difficulty of the trial would go up because Reid would try harder. So those two are clearly in the same tier, even if Reid is more skilled while Reinhard is stronger.
 
Last edited:
656
178
because we have cases like Elsa in Ayamatsu not being able to even scratch Reinhard.
Can you post It? Because if Reinhard was ready to block it I don't see why It should be the same situatiation with Emilia.

You can't use such a broad excuse like "weaker characters injure stronger ones all the time" when that's literally not the case, I can't think of any other times when a character injured someone millions of times stronger in Re:Zero besides the case with Reinhard in Oboreru and Petelgeuse in Ayamatsu, so they're inconsistencies. And explanations like "they must not have had their bodies strengthened by mana" is not a real explanation that was given for why it happened, it's merely your conjecture trying to explain away the inconsistencies.
In this wiki a lot of you guys have this conjecture where you can't pierce characters with normal skin and a far weaker character can't hurt someone way stronger with a weapon.
You said that in all Re:zero only in the Pride and Wrath If there are cases of someone way weaker be capable of stabbing or hurting someone way stronger. That's a lie. Even in the main story Subaru could hurt Elsa if he would have got her with the spiked club, but you said that even that is not consistent. So we have 3 different proofs of that in 3 different stories, all written by the same author and one of them Is the main one and you're still using your headcannon and classified all of them as inconsistencies. And not only that, you reported the fact that Ram without mana seems to be as weak as her body suggests. She's still fast enough to dodge, but her physically strength Is clearly well below the strength she usually has. So I don't understand, are you who decides what is consistent and which is not? Is your way of thinking and your conjecture more important than what happened in the main route and in other 2 routes written by the same person? You know your whole argument Is that these IFs aren't valid because they have stuff similar to other stuff that happened in the main route.


Notice how he answers they're evenly matched "since Cecilus is really strong"? Not skilled, but strong. That's because the question itself is asking about their strength. 純粋な剣術の強さ means "strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.
Pure swordmanship. So Cecils without his Blue Thunder.
This is further supported by another Q&A:
Q: If Thearesia fought with Cecilus, who would win?
A: That's a very delicate question, isn't it. Thearesia has no experience with fighting with an equal and being pressured, so I think Thearesia would lose due to the difference in experience.


Q: If Thearesia had trained with the sword would she have gotten even stronger? Or had she reached the upper limit of strength the moment the Blessing of the Master Swordsman was bestowed?

A: In terms of sword skill, that's the upper limit of strength. However, the more one battles, the more one gains the thing called experience, so I think the "Ability to Respond" could be gained and change her actual strength. In a fight between the truly strong, that's what becomes the bottleneck.

Here your answer.

(which it wouldn't be if Cecilus was as strong as Oboreru implies)
Cecils being Reinhard Level Is something confirmed not only in Oboreru.

"Subaru:「Did anyone familiar come to your mind? If you don’t see the real thing you probably won’t be able to imagine him, but he’s with no exaggeration strong as a monster. Maybe around Reinhardt-grade.」

Ram:「A real nightmare, huh.」

Emilia:「Though what Subaru’s saying is no lie. I’ve never seen Reinhardt’s true strength… But, well, I think he was as strong as that.」

Emilia followed up Ram’s words, detailing her thoughts having actually fought the man.

There was no benefit in telling lies here. From her judgement, Ram wearily placed her hand against her forehead, and said,

Ram:「If we put confidence in Barusu and Emilia-sama’s words then our enemy is of the same caliber as the Knight Reinhardt… If as said they truly are equal to the world’s strongest man, then there’s one that’s at least close to his level in every part of the world.」

Subaru:「So essentially Reinhardt is the strongest in the Kingdom and each of the other three countries have their own strongest.」

Ram:「In the Vollachian Empire there’s the First General, the『Blue Lightning』Cecilus Segmunt; in the Holy Kingdom of Gusteko there’s the『Crazed Prince』; and in the Kararagi City States there’s the『Admirer』Halibel. But each have different traits to them.]"

So Cecils is someone with swordmanship equal to that of Wilhelm and Theresia, with much more experience (so with the ability to respond, which is very important against the strongest according to the author) and with Blue Thunder which boosts his speed.
All of this puts him at Reinhard's Level of strength.

So those two are clearly in the same tier, even if Reid is more skilled while Reinhard is stronger.
Agree, Reid Is on the same tier as Reinhard, and so are Halibel and Cecils as suggested in the IFs and in the arc 6.
 
Last edited:
972
144
Can you post It? Because if Reinhard was ready to block it I don't see why It should be the same situatiation with Emilia.
The instant that Reinhardt begins his charge, a black silhouette swoops in from aside. Discordant noise peals out as Reinhardt meets the silhouette’s slash with his hand, held flat and open like a blade. It's stupid. How can he meet a knife swung with that much momentum using his hand? The knife shrieks, shattering to bits. It's stupid. Why is the knife the one breaking?
~Ayamatsu

In this wiki a lot of you guys have this conjecture where you can't pierce characters with normal skin and a far weaker character can't hurt someone way stronger with a weapon.
If character A is as many times stronger than character B as a human is than a fly, then character B should be able to do only as much damage as a fly can to a human. It's not a hard concept to grasp, if they can dish out and take attacks that can easily destoys buildings, a regular person wouldn't be able to do anything to them. And normal skin can't withstand such powerful attacks, it's clearly not normal skin.

I don't know what you think that pointy objects do that make them able to ignore durability to such an extent. The reason why a sword thrust can cut through a human while, say, a punch can't is because the surface area of the sword's edge is way less than that of a punch, which means that the force per square meter is greater, but the kinetic energy that the thrust and the punch carry isn't.
You said that in all Re:zero only in the Pride and Wrath If there are cases of someone way weaker be capable of stabbing or hurting someone way stronger. That's a lie. Even in the main story Subaru could hurt Elsa if he would have got her with the spiked club, but you said that even that is not consistent.
Subaru literally never injured Elsa. You just assume that because a character dodges the attack it means it's because it was a threat to them, when Elsa was just toying with her food. I don't want any arguments from belief, show me where Subaru injured a character he shouldn't be able to, not where you believe he would have if his attacks connected, which is something that's not even stated or implied.
So we have 3 different proofs of that in 3 different stories, all written by the same author and one of them Is the main one and you're still using your headcannon and classified all of them as inconsistencies.
We also have cases where weaker characters have been unable to scratch stronger ones: Elsa couldn't harm Reinhard in Ayamatsu, Patrasche couldn't harm Garfiel in arc 4, Otto using Al Dona (the highest tier of magic) couldn't harm Garfiel in arc 4. It's literally inconsistent, what do you want?
And not only that, you reported the fact that Ram without mana seems to be as weak as her body suggests. She's still fast enough to dodge, but her physically strength Is clearly well below the strength she usually has.
Yes, but not enough to where she becomes unable to keep up with Garfiel or damage him. Your argument is that a lack of mana strengthening is an explanation as to why Reinhard and Petelgeuse can be damaged by Emilia and Subaru respectively, so I'm showing you that the one time that we know for sure someone ran out of strengthening mana, they were still able to contend with the character they were fighting up to that point, showing that this mana strengthening is not that powerful and that a lack of it is not reason enough as to why one can be killed by a character that cannot typically damage them.

Also, since Ram ran out of mana almost immediately in the fight with Garf, we can assume that she did in her fight with Rai in arc 6 (especially since she was already short on mana because Roswaal wasn't there), yet she was still able to fight just as well and even better than she did against Garfiel.
So I don't understand, are you who decides what is consistent and which is not? Is your way of thinking and your conjecture more important than what happened in the main route and in other 2 routes written by the same person? You know your whole argument Is that these IFs aren't valid because they have stuff similar to other stuff that happened in the main route.
The argument is that these non-canon stories manage to have more inconsitencies than some entire arcs, when they are only 2 or so chapters long each.
Pure swordmanship. So Cecils without his Blue Thunder.
If they are equal in swordmaship, but Cecilus has a few tricks like Blue Thunder that give him an edge, that doesn't mean that Cecilus has superior AP or Durability or Speed compared to Wilhelm. In fact, if they are equal in swordmanship, which is all down to speed, strength, and skill, then they are probably (roughly) equal in the afore listed stats.
Q: If Thearesia had trained with the sword would she have gotten even stronger? Or had she reached the upper limit of strength the moment the Blessing of the Master Swordsman was bestowed?

A: In terms of sword skill, that's the upper limit of strength. However, the more one battles, the more one gains the thing called experience, so I think the "Ability to Respond" could be gained and change her actual strength. In a fight between the truly strong, that's what becomes the bottleneck.

Here your answer.
Yes, it shows that Theresia lacks experience, which is the reason Tappei gave for why she would lose to Cecilus, and not a difference in speed or strength.
Cecils being Reinhard Level Is something confirmed not only in Oboreru.

"Subaru:「Did anyone familiar come to your mind? If you don’t see the real thing you probably won’t be able to imagine him, but he’s with no exaggeration strong as a monster. Maybe around Reinhardt-grade.」

Ram:「A real nightmare, huh.」

Emilia:「Though what Subaru’s saying is no lie. I’ve never seen Reinhardt’s true strength… But, well, I think he was as strong as that.」

Emilia followed up Ram’s words, detailing her thoughts having actually fought the man.

There was no benefit in telling lies here. From her judgement, Ram wearily placed her hand against her forehead, and said,

Ram:「If we put confidence in Barusu and Emilia-sama’s words then our enemy is of the same caliber as the Knight Reinhardt… If as said they truly are equal to the world’s strongest man, then there’s one that’s at least close to his level in every part of the world.」

Subaru:「So essentially Reinhardt is the strongest in the Kingdom and each of the other three countries have their own strongest.」

Ram:「In the Vollachian Empire there’s the First General, the『Blue Lightning』Cecilus Segmunt; in the Holy Kingdom of Gusteko there’s the『Crazed Prince』; and in the Kararagi City States there’s the『Admirer』Halibel. But each have different traits to them.]"

So Cecils is someone with swordmanship equal to that of Wilhelm and Theresia, with much more experience (so with the ability to respond, which is very important against the strongest according to the author) and with Blue Thunder which boosts his speed.
All of this puts him at Reinhard's Level of strength.
You completely ignored my explanation as to why Tappei meant overall strength with the sword and not just skill. You're also ignoring the fact that Tappei specifically said Theresia lacks experience fighting an equal opponent and that's why she loses, which is important because Cecilus is pretty much the same as Reinhard is the only opponent he couldn't just curb stomp.

I'm also not inclined to take Ram on her word when Halibel in the Sloth IF didn't think he could beat Zarestia, who's only Great Spirit level, and most probably weaker than Puck, who Tappei has called a rounding error in comparison to Reinhard. Which is just another case of the IFs contradicting each other. The one time Cecilus made an appearance was in EX 4, all he did was get knocked out by Reinhard because he was fucking around and had an off-screen dual with him at the end. He just hasn't been shown fighting evenly with Reinhard, on screen, in a canon story.

I also don't know when it was stated that Blue Thunder boosts speed, you gotta provide a citation for that one.
Agree, Reid Is on the same tier as Reinhard, and so are Halibel and Cecils as suggested in the IFs and in the arc 6.
What about the Sloth IF that suggests Halibel being only around the level of Great Spirits which are much weaker than Reinhard?
 
656
178
I don't know what you think that pointy objects do that make them able to ignore durability to such an extent. The reason why a sword thrust can cut through a human while, say, a punch can't is because the surface area of the sword's edge is way less than that of a punch, which means that the force per square meter is greater, but the kinetic energy that the thrust and the punch carry isn't.
Because if a little baby has a knife in his hand, be sure tha the can hurt an adult human, even though a punch from the same baby wouldn't hurt an adult.
Subaru literally never injured Elsa. You just assume that because a character dodges the attack it means it's because it was a threat to them, when Elsa was just toying with her food. I don't want any arguments from belief, show me where Subaru injured a character he shouldn't be able to, not where you believe he would have if his attacks connected, which is something that's not even stated or implied.
Subaru wasn't a threat, don't change my words. He's not a threat because Elsa can easily dodge his attacks, but that doesn't mean that Elsa could take direct hits from Subaru with the spiked club. The fact that she dodges, implies she would suffer some damage at least, but I don't scale Subaru to Elsa because of that. Because it's the same with the example I said before, a baby with a knife against an adult human.
We also have cases where weaker characters have been unable to scratch stronger ones: Elsa couldn't harm Reinhard in Ayamatsu, Patrasche couldn't harm Garfiel in arc 4, Otto using Al Dona (the highest tier of magic) couldn't harm Garfiel in arc 4. It's literally inconsistent, what do you want?
and we also have cases where weaker characters can scratch stronger ones, so let's just separate and not mix them.
Yes, but not enough to where she becomes unable to keep up with Garfiel or damage him. Your argument is that a lack of mana strengthening is an explanation as to why Reinhard and Petelgeuse can be damaged by Emilia and Subaru respectively, so I'm showing you that the one time that we know for sure someone ran out of strengthening mana, they were still able to contend with the character they were fighting up to that point, showing that this mana strengthening is not that powerful and that a lack of it is not reason enough as to why one can be killed by a character that cannot typically damage them.
But Ram had little mana, not completely 0.

The argument is that these non-canon stories manage to have more inconsitencies than some entire arcs, when they are only 2 or so chapters long each.
Absolutely not true, all the stuff you call inconsistencies are just 2 things and both related to durability (that can be explained) and the first chapters of the canon story has a similar stuff with Elsa that need to dodge Subaru's attacks with a weapon and not just tanking them like they were nothing.

If they are equal in swordmaship, but Cecilus has a few tricks like Blue Thunder that give him an edge, that doesn't mean that Cecilus has superior AP or Durability or Speed compared to Wilhelm. In fact, if they are equal in swordmanship, which is all down to speed, strength, and skill, then they are probably (roughly) equal in the afore listed stats.
You don't know what is Blue Thunder, do you? It's a blessing that boosts his speed and he can also imbue his katanas with its power.

I'm also not inclined to take Ram on her word when Halibel in the Sloth IF didn't think he could beat Zarestia, who's only Great Spirit level, and most probably weaker than Puck, who Tappei has called a rounding error in comparison to Reinhard. Which is just another case of the IFs contradicting each other. The one time Cecilus made an appearance was in EX 4, all he did was get knocked out by Reinhard because he was fucking around and had an off-screen dual with him at the end. He just hasn't been shown fighting evenly with Reinhard, on screen, in a canon story.
Halibel is literally a chill guy, also his strength is not being a powerhouse like Cecils (it was said in the Oboreru if), but being capable of finding his enemies weak points and using his skills as a shinobi, and his curses.
So yeah, trust Ram.

What about the Sloth IF that suggests Halibel being only around the level of Great Spirits which are much weaker than Reinhard?
What are you talking about? Just because Halibel isn't a powerhouse as Reinhard that doesn't mean that he is on the level of Great Spirits. Halibel's curse worked on Zarestia, when he actived it in the final fight. So Halibel had all prepared to kill her, he's a tactical character...
You're talking like Re:Zero is Dragon Ball lmao, Halibel is Reinhard's level of strength overall.

edit: Oh, and Cecils promised to Reinhard that he would have gotten stronger, so he became stronger since the first encounter.
 
Last edited:
972
144
Because if a little baby has a knife in his hand, be sure tha the can hurt an adult human, even though a punch from the same baby wouldn't hurt an adult.
Yeah, a child which is 10-C can do this to an adult that's 10-B to 10-A. Now, what do you think would happen if we replaced the adult in this example with a brick wall? The kid's punch (I'm not literally talking about a baby here) is going to do literally nothing as well, the knife is going to be more effective, of course, but all it can really do is scratch it. If the kid keeps at it, he might even end up damaging the knife more than he does the wall. Now, do you think that a character much tougher than a wall, one that can easily shatter walls and survive being sent flying through wall, would sustain more damage than that wall simply because he's flesh and blood?
Subaru wasn't a threat, don't change my words. He's not a threat because Elsa can easily dodge his attacks, but that doesn't mean that Elsa could take direct hits from Subaru with the spiked club. The fact that she dodges, implies she would suffer some damage at least, but I don't scale Subaru to Elsa because of that. Because it's the same with the example I said before, a baby with a knife against an adult human.
Again, you say that, but the fact that there are examples of characters choosing to dodge attacks that wouldn't hurt them means that your argument won't go much farther than a speculation. Here's another speculation: Elsa probably had no idea exactly how strong Subaru's attacks were and chose to dodge them because that's usually what one would do when attacked. Both speculations work off of the same information and are equally unprovable.
and we also have cases where weaker characters can scratch stronger ones, so let's just separate and not mix them.
Two of the three examples you provided come from non-canon stories while the third is not even an example of a weaker character injuring a stronger one, but one of the stronger one dodging the weaker one's attacks.
But Ram had little mana, not completely 0.
She has little mana and she quickly burns through it, leaving her at 0 within seconds if she's fighting seriously. But even after running out of mana, she is still capable of performing superhuman feats of the same tier as she does when she has mana.
Absolutely not true, all the stuff you call inconsistencies are just 2 things and both related to durability (that can be explained) and the first chapters of the canon story has a similar stuff with Elsa that need to dodge Subaru's attacks with a weapon and not just tanking them like they were nothing.
Would you like me to start calling it PIS instead? Because that's what it is. BTW your argument shifted from "it's explainable because they're using piercing weapons" to "Subaru in arc 1 could damage Elsa with the club, that's why she dodged" which completely invalidates your previous argument because a club is a blunt weapon that would not be as good at injuring a stronger character as a blade, not even close.
You don't know what is Blue Thunder, do you? It's a blessing that boosts his speed and he can also imbue his katanas with its power.
Again, citation? I've read the stories that feature Cecilus and there wasn't anything about him having a blessing.
Halibel is literally a chill guy, also his strength is not being a powerhouse like Cecils (it was said in the Oboreru if), but being capable of finding his enemies weak points and using his skills as a shinobi, and his curses.
You're not helping your case. If you're telling me that Halibel fights in a way that doesn't require him to be as strong or fast as his enemy, then you're telling me that he might very well not be, at all.
What are you talking about? Just because Halibel isn't a powerhouse as Reinhard that doesn't mean that he is on the level of Great Spirits. Halibel's curse worked on Zarestia, when he actived it in the final fight. So Halibel had all prepared to kill her, he's a tactical character...
Unfortunately for Halibel, curses don't work on Reinhard, so the only way for him to kill him is with power.
You're talking like Re:Zero is Dragon Ball lmao, Halibel is Reinhard's level of strength overall.
He's not as strong, fast, or skilled as Reinhard, so what puts him on the same level again?
edit: Oh, and Cecils promised to Reinhard that he would have gotten stronger, so he became stronger since the first encounter.
People don't tend to become several times stronger after training for a short period of time. This isn't Dragon Ball.
 
656
178
Yeah, a child which is 10-C can do this to an adult that's 10-B to 10-A. Now, what do you think would happen if we replaced the adult in this example with a brick wall? The kid's punch (I'm not literally talking about a baby here) is going to do literally nothing as well, the knife is going to be more effective, of course, but all it can really do is scratch it. If the kid keeps at it, he might even end up damaging the knife more than he does the wall. Now, do you think that a character much tougher than a wall, one that can easily shatter walls and survive being sent flying through wall, would sustain more damage than that wall simply because he's flesh and blood?
Characters skins is particular, It can be tougher than a wall but at the same times It can easily be pierce by far weaker characters.
It's something common in fiction, nothing new.


Would you like me to start calling it PIS instead? Because that's what it is. BTW your argument shifted from "it's explainable because they're using piercing weapons" to "Subaru in arc 1 could damage Elsa with the club, that's why she dodged" which completely invalidates your previous argument because a club is a blunt weapon that would not be as good at injuring a stronger character as a blade, not even close.
I mean, It didn't switch. With a piercing weapon it is even easier.


You're not helping your case. If you're telling me that Halibel fights in a way that doesn't require him to be as strong or fast as his enemy, then you're telling me that he might very well not be, at all.
I am sure Halibel's reaction and combat speed Is enough to keep up with Reinhard's speed.

Unfortunately for Halibel, curses don't work on Reinhard, so the only way for him to kill him is with power.
You keep changing my words...
Halibel Is Reinhard Level. That's true.
But the Sword Saint Is a counter to Halibel.
Let's say It in other words, Halibel Is Cecils Level (not in close combat, as confirmed in Oboreru) in overall strength, Halibel might win with some strategy against Cecils and Cecils Is Reinhard Level. Reinhard Is just a bad match-up for Halibel.
Understood? I hope I was clear.


Again, citation? I've read the stories that feature Cecilus and there wasn't anything about him having a blessing.
C'mon, It was never stated It Is a blessings but it's kinda clear. But whatever, It doesn't matter what It Is, he can boosts himself with lightning so his strength and speed surpasses that of Prime Wilhelm.

Even if you don't want to use IFs (I don't get why, I mean you literally use Q&As but not IFs, when both are words from the same person), Halibel and Cecils should be classified as Reinhard because It was said in the novel by Ram.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Honestly this is ridiculous at this point.

Cecils and Halibel aren't Reinhard level, Ram's statement was in regards to the strongest beings in each country, and her assumption that because of that they are all comparable, which is incorrect.

Reinhard isn't just the strongest in Lugnica, but is the world's strongest. Neither by feats or statements in the canon story does Cecils compare to Reinhard, he is explicitly stated to be Prime Wilhelm level, Theresia loses to him due to experience, not strength, not speed, meaning they are the same tier.

He isn't Reinhard level.
 
656
178
Honestly this is ridiculous at this point.

Cecils and Halibel aren't Reinhard level, Ram's statement was in regards to the strongest beings in each country, and her assumption that because of that they are all comparable, which is incorrect.

Reinhard isn't just the strongest in Lugnica, but is the world's strongest. Neither by feats or statements in the canon story does Cecils compare to Reinhard, he is explicitly stated to be Prime Wilhelm level, Theresia loses to him due to experience, not strength, not speed, meaning they are the same tier.

He isn't Reinhard level.
Ram doesn't do any assumption about strength, she just says that in every country there is someone at least close to his level, so the person Emilia and Subaru saw must be one of them (she thought) and Reinhard being the world's strongest is something well known and even said in the Oboreru If. But in the same If we can clearly see that Cecils could fight Reinhard and even doing him a lot of damage. I dont' see any problem with someone being Reinhard level, when there is Reid (as you said).

I mean, Subaru and Emilia thought that Reid was of the same caliber of Reinhard, the author confirmed that this is true, because Reinhard would have a lot of problems dealing with him, Ram says that if Subaru and Emilia are right then they're probably talking about Halibel or Celis or the prince.

All of this just means that: Reinhard is the strongest, without any doubts, but there are some characters of his same caliber and are: Reid, Cecils, Halibel and the Prince. All of that is really consistent with the IF.
And what the author says in an interview has less importance than what is it written in the story. Check death of the author.
 
656
178
I asked some people to write here, but for now, no one replied. I am just gonna say that your logic is a bit self-contradictory:
but those Q&As should be taken with with a mountain of salt because Tappei says some very dumb shit in them that either shouldn't be taken seriously or contradicts what has been established in the story
You said that, but at the same time you tried to debunk Cecils being around Reinhard's strength, which is written in the novel, with this:
how the Q&As says that Cecilus is only around young Wilhelm and Theresia's level
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
972
144
Because, guess what, a large part of our scaling is based on said Q&As.

Tappei has absolutely said some very dumb shit in them though, he once said that Regulus was the strongest character in Re:Zero (though that technically wasn't a Q&A). He also went on about how it is absolutely impossible for Ram to ever regain her horn, but here we are in the last chapters of arc 6.
 
656
178
Because, guess what, a large part of our scaling is based on said Q&As.

Tappei has absolutely said some very dumb shit in them though, he once said that Regulus was the strongest character in Re:Zero (though that technically wasn't a Q&A). He also went on about how it is absolutely impossible for Ram to ever regain her horn, but here we are in the last chapters of arc 6.
I mean, taking Q&As Is fine until the novel doesn't contradict here. It also depends on which year he said Cecils = Theresia, because Tappei could change his idea. Also, I found out some interviews are bad translated or fake, never found the one Cecils = Thearesia.

I've found this:
screenautore.PNG


Google translate, literally:

Q: Which is stronger, Teresia or Segmund?

A: The white one wins. I'm sorry, it's not white. The blue one.
Cecils Segmund wins.
 
Last edited:
972
144
I am way ahead of you. Ever since I saw that the Puck = Roswaal Q&A was fake, I've been checking the Japanese raws to make sure that everything's ok.

The original question is deleted, but Tappei's answer still stands:

This is from the same birthday Q&A as the one you show, it saw tweeted less than an hour prior. Tappei already answered the same question, so he gave a sillier and more direct response the second time around, as he often does when he gets asked the same thing multiple times in the same Q&A (just one more reason why twitter sucks).
 
656
178
I am way ahead of you. Ever since I saw that the Puck = Roswaal Q&A was fake, I've been checking the Japanese raws to make sure that everything's ok.

The original question is deleted, but Tappei's answer still stands:

This is from the same birthday Q&A as the one you show, it saw tweeted less than an hour prior. Tappei already answered the same question, so he gave a sillier and more direct response the second time around, as he often does when he gets asked the same thing multiple times in the same Q&A (just one more reason why twitter sucks).
I didn't find It because there isn't written Cecils' name, lmao.
 

Elizhaa

Close enough to enzyme-linked immunoassay acronym!
VS Battles
Sysop
12,697
3,132
Lgamer099_99 asked me to comment on his initial conversation topics in this thread. Short answer, I think OppaiSenpai5's and Celestial_Pegasus's arguments make more sense, from what I read.
 
Last edited:
972
144
Ok, can anyone tell me what type of concept the concepts of sound and light are? Need it for Reid's profile.
Chapter 85 said:
Killing the very concept of sound and light, Reid’s flash cleaved space.
He shall affirm. Should it be the stipulated sword or the chopsticks, regardless, come what may in that flash’s path, it shall be slashed down.
For that was, the very manifestation of the notion of the『Sword』.
Btw 概念 is being translated as "notion" for no good reason in the last sentence when it was accurately translated as "concept" in the first one. So it's really saying "the very manifestation of the concept of the『Sword』."
 

Elizhaa

Close enough to enzyme-linked immunoassay acronym!
VS Battles
Sysop
12,697
3,132
The Type 3 is probably, at best, with the current evidence.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Relooking through some stuff involving Garfiel, found some interesting things.

Garfiel can shatter a stone building, wonder what results would that give?

Against the screaming Garfiel, Kurgan remained impassive.
The silent war god that Garfiel was facing would only watch him quietly. With a pout, he broke the line of the street, then rushed forward with a single step.
Through the soles of his shoes, he absorbed the power of the earth, allowing his [Divine Protection of Earth Spirits] to redirect all that energy into a blow.
His fist was truly infused with the power to shatter a stone building.-Arc 5, Chapter 51

Garfiel's regen needs to be upped to like High-Low, he regenerated severely broken bones

Hearing his words and seeing his movements, the expressions of the little brother and little sister who had rushed over changed. Little sister especially wore a look of rage.

Sister: “Are, are you stupid!? Alright lie down already! Right away… yes, right away, right away I’ll go call a doctor over…”

Garfiel: “There’re other guys needin’ doctors. My amazin’ self’s got other things t’ do, kiddo.”

Garfiel nodded at the little sister whose face had turned bright red. But his face full of fresh blood perhaps didn’t look very convincing. Little sister ceaselessly wept anguished tears.

During this time, wretchedly broken bones in his arms reconnected. Although the flesh had yet to recover fully, running a few steps wouldn’t have him passing out. Garfiel stood after having reached this conclusion.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again got bones broken and healed

Garfiel’s entire abdominal area took the force of his opponent’s huge fists, and his body flew upward. Then, he was smashed by the fist that had been swung from above, and the already decrepit floor broke beneath him and he fell another level.

Garfiel: “Kuu, what… guu!?”

The sole of a foot slammed into his downward falling body.

The damage caused by both the momentum and the mass caused him to spit blood, and his body, stomped on once again, crashed fiercely and directly through to the entrance to the building, where it was smashed into the street.

From this striking impact, Garfiel continued to cough and he climbed to his feet. At the same time, he applied simple healing magic himself, knitting broken bones as he raised his head.-Arc 5, Chapter 51

Garfiel has a danger sense, he needs precog added

Kurgan greeted him with the same, the distance between the two reducing to zero in a mere instant.
To say hit would be too sharp, to say slash would be blunt, the attacks that Garfiel made without pause leaving little room to breathe.
The air that Demon Cleavers touched was not whistled through or sliced so much as it was killed, every blade only being caught by Garfiel due to his warriors’ instinct for danger.
In one exchange of blows he needed to content with eight hands, and those eight hands only needed to contend with one.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again mention of his hair standing on end, obviously sensing danger

Suddenly, Garfiel’s hair stood on end at a chill.

Kurgan whose six hands had been dodged would want to use the remaining two to finish Garfiel. — A fatal blow approached.

— Skipping over the seventh hand, the eighth and last hand attacked.

He stopped an attack with one hand, using it to wield the Demon Cleaver.

Right hand holding the pommel of the Demon Cleaver, right shoulder’s hand tightly gripping the body of the Demon Cleaver. A blow that surpassed powerful was about to welcome Garfiel from the ground.-Arc 5, Chapter 62

Again another instance of his instincts warning him of danger

They contained countless points of light; these were countless winged insects enshrouded by phosphorescent light—
“Since long ago, I have had few human friends. Instead, I get along quite well with my friends beyond humans.”
Garfiel was taken aback by the voice coming down at him from overhead. He could not instantly comprehend the meaning of those words. But his instincts rang an alarm bell warning him of danger.
And once again, even that very instant, Garfiel was listening to his enemy’s words.
Accordingly, the next moment, his just rewards blew up in his face.-Volume 13, Chapter 4

He should also have vibration manipulation? Or maybe it's sound manipulation? His roar basically blew Subaru away

In staying behind, Ram had probably calculated along the same lines as they—

“ ——!!!!!”
A roar bellowed across the forest, and the next instant, Subaru was swallowed up by a ferocious shockwave.
5
“—.————aa”
Ting, went the ringing in his ears. Subaru slowly opened his eyes.
The instant they opened, his head heavily swayed. He’d fallen to the ground. And yet, his semicircular canals had lost track of the world, and he kept rocking right and left, as if swaying on top of a wave.-Volume 11, Chapter 4

Large size type 0

“—Aa”
In the world inclined at ninety degrees, he saw a hole gouged out of the ground, a great broken tree, and a crouching figure.
—Subaru saw a single giant tiger covered in golden fur.
“ image (image) ”
The ferocious tiger’s body was crouched low. Its jade eyes were looking down at the fallen Subaru.
Its body length was about twelve feet long, far larger than the tigers Subaru knew.
Its four legs were very thick, and its closed mouth could not contain all the fangs growing therein.
At a glance, the visual broadcast the menace that the tiger’s very presence presented.
“…uu”
The blow, the circumstances, made him think of something very similar he’d recently experienced amid the tragedy at the mansion the last time around—when he’d lost Petra to the attack of a demon beast.-Volume 11, Chapter 4

Resurrected Kurgan doesn't need to breath, that's self-sustenance type 1

The two entangled men plummeted into the waterway, where Garfiel had lost his footing due to his inexperience in aquatic combat. The magically resurrected Kugan had no need to breathe, and if he had wanted to decide the outcome could have merely waited for Garfiel to drown.-Chapter 62

Btw aren't Kurgan and Theresia basically undead, shouldn't they have immortality type 7?

It sprayed from Kurgan’s right hand, that last right hand that clutched the Demon Cleaver.

On it was a wound persisting from the last time he’d attacked Garfiel, deep enough that bone was visible from hand to upper arm. From this blow just now the wound had completely split open.

Kurgan’s face bore no shock. Nor did his expression change due to the pain.

That was a matter of course. He was a corpse. Pain existed for the sake of urging people to live, to ensure that the candlelight of life still existed beyond the minimum limit — the deceased did not need such a tool.-Chapter 62

Kurgan's fist is equated to a warships and can cause a human to explode, wonder what results does that give?

The impact from his right fractured his elbow, the wrist of upper arm shattering completely. Garfiel gritted his teeth, to the extent that his teeth dripped blood. That was the second hand.
The third fourth hand were empty, striking in the same instant.
The clenched fists of Kurgan with his giant form, were no smaller than the size of a child’s skull. Explosive power paired with explosive size, the power of a blow could be said to equate that of a warship’s.
Not to mention that one first felt capable of piercing iron plate, approached Garfiel whose mind had blanked after the impact to his head. One toward his body and one toward his head, either with a direct hit was capable of exploding a human.-Chapter 62
 
972
144
Jeesus Pegasus that's a lot.
Garfiel can shatter a stone building, wonder what results would that give?
Based on calcs I've done before, shattering a stone building is, you guessed it, Building level.
Garfiel's regen needs to be upped to like High-Low, he regenerated severely broken bones
Isn't that just Mid-Low though? High-Low is when you start regening parts of your body that have been cut off or organ damage.
Again got bones broken and healed
That's his healing magic, not his natural regen.
Garfiel has a danger sense, he needs precog added
Aren't all those examples of instinct/intuition rather than precognition?
He should also have vibration manipulation? Or maybe it's sound manipulation? His roar basically blew Subaru away
Sound manipulation would be a better fit, I guess.
Large size type 0
It says 12 feet, which is about 3.65 meters.
Resurrected Kurgan doesn't need to breath, that's self-sustenance type 1
Simple enough.
Btw aren't Kurgan and Theresia basically undead, shouldn't they have immortality type 7?
I suppose.
Kurgan's fist is equated to a warships and can cause a human to explode, wonder what results does that give?
We have destruction values for the human body, so it's Wall level to make someone explode. I have no idea the power of a warship's blow would be or what that even refers to.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
@OppaiSenpai5

So building level as i thought, cool i guess

I guess it's Mid-Low? Wasn't too sure cause the page doesn't mention anything about broken bones. Looking at profiles like Spider-Man though, he does have it for healing broken bones in hours, though Garfiel's is faster. Mid-Low it is then.

Intuition/instinct falls under precog when it comes to sensing danger last i checked, precog is a pretty broad ability which even includes predicting things through math, i mean spider man has it for instinctive reactions to danger.

Misread that as 20ft for some reason, my bad. No large size then.

Yea no idea what power of warship entails either.
 
972
144
Intuition/instinct fall under precog when it comes to sensing danger last i checked, it's a pretty broad ability which even includes predicting things through math, when it comes to sensing danger, i mean spider man has it for instinctive reactions to danger.
You'd think it falls under instinctive reactions, no? Can't IRL animals do basically the same things that Garfiel can?
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Instinctive reactions is moving without thinking, Garfiel doesn't do that, he is just sensing danger due to his instincts. Though actually could have sworn he does have a feat of reacting without thinking in the WN, but no clue where to find that atm.

I guess they do? Have heard stuff about animals knowing when earthquakes are coming.
 
972
144
And precognition is the ability to predict the future though various means. Garfiel doesn't do that, he can just sense that something dangerous is happening, in the present that is. It's more like a type of enhanced sense:
  • Enhanced Awareness: All senses are attuned to nearby activity
or
  • Enhanced Sixth: Users of this rare ability can feel changes without knowing how or why, often reaching into precognition
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Seems like an enhanced sixth sense, which it does says can reach into precog. Think we need some input there cause i have seen danger sense be rated as precog a lot.

This thread is good for fans to post feats and what not, but in terms of getting stuff evaluated, i think it's better to create separate threads.
 

Elizhaa

Close enough to enzyme-linked immunoassay acronym!
VS Battles
Sysop
12,697
3,132
Giving the context is about future events, I think it would be Precognition going from the characters like Spiderman (regarding spider-sense).
 
656
178
I don't give up!
I found another possible proof for Cecils and Halibel scaling to Reinhard.

2019 Q&As, so more recent then the one about Thearesia.

Q: For Reinhard to be able to draw his sword against someone, around whose level of strength would they be?

A: There's situations where he can't draw it even against the strongest in the various nations. At the very least, it's beyond the majority of Re: Zero characters.

As we can see that "even" indicates that the strongest in the various nations are portrayed as the strongest characters after Reinhard.
Which is consistent with Ram's words.

Ram:「If we put confidence in Barusu and Emilia-sama’s words then our enemy is of the same caliber as the Knight Reinhardt… If as said they truly are equal to the world’s strongest man, then there’s one that’s at least close to his level in every part of the world.」

Subaru:「So essentially Reinhardt is the strongest in the Kingdom and each of the other three countries have their own strongest.」

Ram:「In the Vollachian Empire there’s the First General, the『Blue Lightning』Cecilus Segmunt; in the Holy Kingdom of Gusteko there’s the『Crazed Prince』; and in the Kararagi City States there’s the『Admirer』Halibel. But each have different traits to them.]"

Of course Reinhard is the strongest man in the world, but seems like that the other nations "strongest" can be comparate to him. It's like Whitebeard in One Piece, who is a yonko and the strongest man in the world, but the other yonkos are still comparable to him even though they're weaker.
 
972
144
This changes nothing. Reinhard was able to draw Reid against zombie Theresia which is no stronger than old Wil, so both far removed from their prime, but he can't draw it against Halibel:
Q: In the Oboreru story, did Reinhard draw the Dragon Sword Reid while fighting Halibel?
A: No, he couldn't draw it against Halibel.
So being able to make Reinhard draw the sword doesn't mean anything when even a mid tier character was worthy of it while way stronger characters weren't. Hell, even against Reid himself it might not be possible to draw the Dragon Sword:
Q: Even without the Dragon Sword Reid, can Reinhard defeat Satella and Reid?
A: Due to a problem of compatibility, his fight with Satella wouldn't end. Taking on Reid would be difficult, indeed. Since there's a high chance that the Dragon Sword Reid can't be drawn against Reid.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. All that Q&A says is that while there is a certain level of power one must possess to be worthy of Reid, whether one is worthy of it is not about whether one is strong enough to pose a threat to the Sword Saint. Ram's statements remain as unreliable as ever because she has never met either of the people she's talking about (not even Reinhard, I don't think) to be able to accurately judge their power. I'm pretty sure the only one who has any idea of how strong Reinhard really is is Subaru because he got to witness it in the 2nd trial of Sanctuary. Just look at the flimsy logic they used to conclude that Reid is on Reinhard's level:
Arc 6 Chapter 27 said:
Without any exaggeration, the『Stick Swinger’s』true strength approached cataclysmic levels.

He’d made short work of Julius with his chopsticks, fought with Emilia and still had plenty of energy left to spare―― His true strength was without exaggeration Reinhardt-grade.
If this is all they need to conclude that someone is close to Reinhard's level, then we shouldn't take their word on anything scaling related. Also, the term "nation's strongest" is meaningless because generations of Sword Saints no stronger than Theresia were always hailed not only as Lugunica's strongest, but also the world's strongest.
 
656
178
So being able to make Reinhard draw the sword doesn't mean anything when even a mid tier character was worthy of it while way stronger characters weren't.
But what are you talking about? Did you read what I said?
I just posted a q&a, Tappei confirms that sometimes Reinhard can't use the Dragon Sword Reid EVEN against the strongest of the other nations.

Dragon sword Reid isn't related to power level, I agree and I never said otherwise. Why you don't understand me?

The author just said that EVEN against them Reinhard can't always use Reid.

But if Tappei says EVEN against them, this means that they're top level characters and only below Reinhard. Got what I mean?
In author's mind Cecils, Halibel and the Prince are top level characters. He took them as an example to prove that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power, but the fact that they're the example means that they're the strongest characters after Reinhard. That's why Tappei took them as an examplea and said "even".
 
972
144
The guy asking the question wanted to know how strong one would need to be to be worthy of Reid, and Tappei's response says that even against the strongest in various nations it might not be possible to draw the sword. That doesn't mean much though. First of, you're assuming that "strongest in the various nations" refers exclusively to Cecilus, Halibel and the Crazed Prince rather than the general top brass of each country (ex. The Divine Generals are the strognest people in Vollachia). And let's not forget that Tappei definitely isn't counting the likes of the Great Spirits in this, despite them each belonging to one of the nations (this is evident when Tappei said that Wilhelm was the strongest of his era, ignoring the fact that the Great Spirits have existed in pretty much every era), or people like Regulus who do not belong to any nation, or people who were very poweful but are now dead or have just fucked off to somewhere cough Volcanica.
 
656
178
The guy asking the question wanted to know how strong one would need to be to be worthy of Reid, and Tappei's response says that even against the strongest in various nations it might not be possible to draw the sword.
Yeah. Even against them, he's talking like they're the top of the top.
To let the guy understand that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power levels he's taking the strongest guys of the verse to prove that even against them Reinhard might not draw the Sword.
The fact that the author takes the strongest of the others countries to let you understand that drawing the Sword isn't related to power level is Indeed a proof. Why didn't he say that Reinhard might not be able to draw It against spirits or Reid or any other character? Because he wanted to do an example with the strongest guys possible. The most exagerrated example. And I don't see why Ram should talk about something she doesn't know about. In fact she says "if Subaru and Emolia are right about someone being Reinhard's level, then there are Halibel etc." So Ram Is sure that there are people comparable to Reinhard, but she isn't sure about what Subaru and Emilia saw because she wasn't there.
Of course she hadn't seen them fighting, but other people did and now Halibel, Cecils and the Prince are known to be near to Reinhard's level. I don't see why don't take it. The author intent was to hype Reid to Reinhard's level, and to do that he also said that there are other characters near to his level.
 
972
144
Yeah. Even against them, he's talking like they're the top of the top.
To let the guy understand that Dragon Reid Sword isn't related to power levels he's taking the strongest guys of the verse to prove that even against them Reinhard might not draw the Sword.
If he wanted to talk about the strongest in the series, he would have brough Reid, Volcanica and Satella by name as they're the ones that he has confirmed are able to put up a fight against Reinhard.
The fact that the author takes the strongest of the others countries to let you understand that drawing the Sword isn't related to power level is Indeed a proof. Why didn't he say that Reinhard might not be able to draw It against spirits or Reid or any other character? Because he wanted to do an example with the strongest guys possible. The most exagerrated example.
Ugh, no. Tappei was once asked to list the strongest magic users and this is what he gave us:
Q: Out of the characters that have appeared in Re: Zero so far, please tell me the top five in magic attack strength. Does a serious Emilia-tan make the list?
A: Roswaal > Awakened Emilia > Echidna > Full-power Beatrice > Fortuna; something like that.
(October 09, 2014 arc4)
You'll notice that this ranking does not include Puck. Does that mean that all of these people are stronger than Puck? Nope, Puck is the confirmed strongest magic user that we've seen in the story:
Q: Ignoring physical abilities, who would you choose as the strongest?
A: What do you mean by ‘ignoring physical abilities’, do you mean magic? If so, it’s Puck.
The fact that he wasn't included in the ranking of the strongest magic users shows us that Tappei neglects to mention certain types of characters in these rankings, such as the Great Spirits. (side note: We ignore the fact that Awakened (post arc 4) Emilia is there because it makes no sense)
And I don't see why Ram should talk about something she doesn't know about.
But she doesn't know about it, because she's never met the people she's talking about.
In fact she says "if Subaru and Emolia are right about someone being Reinhard's level, then there are Halibel etc." So Ram Is sure that there are people comparable to Reinhard, but she isn't sure about what Subaru and Emilia saw because she wasn't there.
First off, Emilia outright says she's never seen Reinhard's true power, and for a fact she hasn't seen Reid's either. Really, she's just following what Subaru's already concluded for himself. Ram was being asked if she knew who that guy was, and, based on what Subaru was saying about him being Reinhard-level, her mind went to the only people that are said to be close to him in power. Ram isn't sure that those three are close to Reinhard's level, she's just heard that they are, because she's never seen them herself.
Of course she hadn't seen them fighting, but other people did and now Halibel, Cecils and the Prince are known to be near to Reinhard's level. I don't see why don't take it. The author intent was to hype Reid to Reinhard's level, and to do that he also said that there are other characters near to his level.
Reinhard and Cecilus fought that one time in EX 4, there were a handful of spectators, we don't know what happened at all, and I don't even think that this battle happening is public knowledge. Even if that Silver Flower Dance is where the rumour of Cecilus being close to Reinhard comes from, what about the other ones? Have Halibel and the Prince ever fought Reinhard or Cecilus? Not to our knowledge. Look at our Statements page, if we don't even know the source of the claim, it's definitely not a reliable one. And Tappei's intend may have been to hype Reid to be nearly as strong as Reinhard, but that doesn't mean that those other three being brough up is for the sake of saying that they, too, are the same way.
 
656
178
if we don't even know the source of the claim, it's definitely not a reliable one.
No, the page says something else.
The source of the claim here Is Rem's statement in Arc 6. How does she know that Halibel and the Prince are close to his level? We don't know, but nothing in the novels cotradicts what Ram said.
And at least Cecils should scale, since as you said there were spectators for Cecils vs Reinhard.
The only thing contradicting Cecils is that Thaeresia's stuff, but it's inconsistent I think...

The fact that he wasn't included in the ranking of the strongest magic users shows us that Tappei neglects to mention certain types of characters in these rankings, such as the Great Spirits
The ranking Is about magic attacks power, not the strongest magic users.
So Puck can be the strongest for his letality, and not for "explosive power".
 
972
144
No, the page says something else.
The source of the claim here Is Rem's statement in Arc 6. How does she know that Halibel and the Prince are close to his level? We don't know, but nothing in the novels cotradicts what Ram said.
Thus Ram is not a reliable source of information because she says things that she can't prove are true. The author, who is a more reliable source of information, has already told us where Cecilus places in the ranking and Reinhard tier it ain't.
And at least Cecils should scale, since as you said there were spectators for Cecils vs Reinhard.
How? We don't know what happened and whether Reinhard was fighting seriously or whether Cecilus managed to do anything to him or tank his attacks.
The only thing contradicting Cecils is that Thaeresia's stuff, but it's inconsistent I think...
Cecilus' appearances can be counted on one hand, 'course it's inconsistent, but 2 explicit statements from the author > a non-canon IF + baseless claim from Ram.
The ranking Is about magic attacks power, not the strongest magic users.
So Puck can be the strongest for his letality, and not for "explosive power".
Puck, even in his small form, was a match for Roswaal's explosive power (watch their falshback battle from the OVA), there is no good reason why he wouldn't be on the list.
 
656
178
How? We don't know what happened and whether Reinhard was fighting seriously or whether Cecilus managed to do anything to him or tank his attacks.
If he wasn't serious he wouldn't have drawn the Reid dragon Sword I think..? And he was asked by Marcos (if I am not wrong) to show Cecils the strength of the Sword Saint. So for a respect thing he wasn't suppressed.
Cecils for sure survived the encounter, he's confirmed to be still alive.

Cecilus' appearances can be counted on one hand, 'course it's inconsistent, but 2 explicit statements from the author > a non-canon IF + baseless claim from Ram.
One of the statements just talk about swordmanship. Reinhard's swordmanship is weaker than Reid's, but he's overall stronger.
I am sure that Cecils and Prime Wilhelm would draw in a swordmanship battle with wood swords, but Cecils is overall stronger since he has better swords and can cover himself with lightning, right?
And even though IFs aren't canon, why should the author change the strength of his own characters? I mean, they were still written by him. He knows how strong they are, why showing something that isn't his idea?
Also, the if is consistent with Ram's statement which in my opinion Is the best source.
And there Is the death of the author, so something that comes from the main source > author's opinion (and he could just have changed It).

Puck, even in his small form, was a match for Roswaal's explosive power (watch their falshback battle from the OVA), there is no good reason why he wouldn't be on the list.
both Puck and Roswaal weren't serious, right?
 
972
144
If he wasn't serious he wouldn't have drawn the Reid dragon Sword I think..?
He also drew the sword against Theresia who he could have beaten with his pinky finger. Let me rephrase that, Reinhard is pretty much always serious but it's about whether he's going all out or not and whether he has Reid drawn does little to tell us if he is. The sword gets drawn when the sword wants to be drawn which has little to do with whether Reinhard needs the sword to win.
And he was asked by Marcos (if I am not wrong) to show Cecils the strength of the Sword Saint.
Which may or may not require him going all out but it usually doesn't.
So for a respect thing he wasn't suppressed.
Cecils for sure survived the encounter, he's confirmed to be still alive.
Of course he survived but we have nothing to tell us that he injured Reinhard or tanked his full-power attacks. Mind you, this is a sword duel, all the wounds that Cecilus was covered in could easily just be from glancing hits instead of, say, Reinhard using Getsuga Tenshou which he definitely didn't use because he would have deleted the capital.
One of the statements just talk about swordmanship. Reinhard's swordmanship is weaker than Reid's, but he's overall stronger.
I am sure that Cecils and Prime Wilhelm would draw in a swordmanship battle with wood swords, but Cecils is overall stronger since he has better swords and can cover himself with lightning, right?
I already addressed this the last time you brought this up, I'll just repeat what I said then:

You are mistaken, read the Q&A again:
Q: In a comparison purely of swordsmanship, which of Wilhelm in his prime and Cecilus would be stronger?
A: I'd like to say that they'd be evenly matched. Since Cecilus is really strong.
Notice how he answers they're evenly matched "since Cecilus is really strong"? Not skilled, but strong. That's because the question itself is asking about their strength. 純粋な剣術の強さ means "strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.

I'd also consider Reid a poor example because his sword technique, which is described as the pinacle of swordsmanship; it's stated that there is nothing special about it:
In contrast to Julius, who brought out his secret techniques, Reid Astrea’s fighting style was very simple to understand. He simply repeated using the same downward sword slash that let out a light that cut through the world and destroyed everything in its path.

There was nothing special about it, and it wasn’t even a special magic attack. Just by waving his sword, the world got burnt by the light. It was something she did not understand. Was Reid Astrea just beyond understanding, or were all Sword Saints like this?
~ Arc 6, Chapter 85

Also, after reading the stories featuring Cecilus, I couldn't spot where all that lightning shit you may find written on his wiki page comes from, so I guess it could just be another case of the people that write that wiki being wrong. And what would better swords entail? Do they give him a stats boost or dura neg or something?
And even though IFs aren't canon, why should the author change the strength of his own characters? I mean, they were still written by him. He knows how strong they are, why showing something that isn't his idea?
It's not about Tappei changing the power levels of the characters on a whim for the sake of an IF, it's about the fact that what was shown in the IF contradicts what Tappei himself told us shortly after he wrote the IF along with the IFs having other inconsistencies.
Also, the if is consistent with Ram's statement which in my opinion Is the best source.
Literally the least credible source of a statement.
And there Is the death of the author, so something that comes from the main source > author's opinion (and he could just have changed It).
Yeah, he could have changed it, because those Q&As came out shortly after Oboreru.
both Puck and Roswaal weren't serious, right?
Define serious, because Puck went true form at one point and Roswaal used his trump card against him.
 
656
178
"strength of pure swordmanship". This is not a comparison of skill.
OF PURE SWORDMANSHIP. So no abilities, not counting having better gear (swords)
t's not about Tappei changing the power levels of the characters on a whim for the sake of an IF, it's about the fact that what was shown in the IF contradicts what Tappei himself told us shortly after he wrote the IF along with the IFs having other inconsistencies.

I never seen a character being stronger or weaker in the IFs, honestly.
And what would better swords entail? Do they give him a stats boost or dura neg or something?
He seems to be stronger with better swords, since Julius defeated Cecils when the latter was using his fifth best sword. Julius literally broke his fifth best sword, but can't compare to Cecils when he is using both Fiend Sword and the Dream Sword, which are part of the so-called Ten Swords of Power.

But we seem to just agree to disagree, I don't think that one of us can change the other idea until new infos.
 
972
144
OF PURE SWORDMANSHIP. So no abilities, not counting having better gear (swords)
Yes, and swordsmanship comes down who can swing their sword faster, with more force and more skillfully, and Tappei says that they're even because "Cecilus is really strong". He may have more abilities than Wil, but that doesn't make him stronger, per say, just more versatile unless shown/stated otherwise. "Better swords" also entails little, because we have no idea what the abilities of these swords are. This is not a video game where better gear just triples your AP.
He seems to be stronger with better swords, since Julius defeated Cecils when the latter was using his fifth best sword. Julius literally broke his fifth best sword, but can't compare to Cecils when he is using both Fiend Sword and the Dream Sword, which are part of the so-called Ten Swords of Power.
Again, we have not an inkling of what those swords do. They're more durable and maybe sharper, I guess, but that doesn't help us much.
 
656
178
Again, we have not an inkling of what those swords do. They're more durable and maybe sharper, I guess, but that doesn't help us much.
I mean, using two swords of a series called Ten Swords of Power and using normal swords, must there be a gap between them. With his fifth best Sword Cecils lost to Julius!
 

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Sysop
Human Resources
14,881
1,926
Some things i observed from latest arc 6 chapter.

Ram's clairvoyance lets her predict Rai/Ley future moves by sharing his sight, knowing were he puts strength in his muscles etc (literally like a sharigan).

Ram learned Rai's invisible blade technique.

Rai has the knowledge of like thousands of ppl, and said to be like a master of abilities with genius intellect and wisdom.

Od is again equated to the soul. Spirits in bond of ice are said to fight by stripping away their opponents defenses then crushing their od. Spirits should have soul manipulation then.

Ram can share her burdens with Rem, so damage transferal.

Ram's profile should be change from higher with oni mode, to higher via removing shackles.

Is it next change Volcanica's sub-relativistic feat happens? Will wait for that then make a new CRT with all the stuff i said above. As i said before this thread is not good for getting changes evaluated, it's just to discuss tiering stuff freely without spoiling in the discussion thread.
 
972
144
Od is again equated to the soul. Spirits in bond of ice are said to fight by stripping away their opponents defenses then crushing their od. Spirits should have soul manipulation then.
I mean, wasn't it explained that od is life force and not a soul?
Ram's profile should be change from higher with oni mode, to higher via removing shackles.
Agreed, she's higher via deus ex machina.
Is it next change Volcanica's sub-relativistic feat happens?
It's next chapter IIRC. Basically, after he got a bit more serious, his attacks were stated to be "1000 or 10000" faster than Subaru's whip, which is already supersonic by itself. This would put him at MHS+ or Sub-rel. There are also a few things I'd like to get checked with a translator myself in regards to this.
 
Top