Re:Zero Acausality Removal [Regulus] | The Rules are way to lax anyway

[Sonoftanavast9]

The notion of Regulus having Acausality comes from the following scans, specifically the scans to do with Laws/Rules:

There was only one possibility left of all the patterns he had imagined that could explain—his power didn’t make him invincible at all. It was a time stop ability. More precisely, Regulus could stop time for all sorts of objects. Fulfilled. Not lacking. Complete. The twisted worldview that Regulus espoused in all things spoke to the hideous way he lived, but it was also a confession of his power. “If time has stopped for an object, then that means it doesn’t change. No change means no getting injured, and it also means no getting wet, either. The dirt you throw and the water droplets all had their time stopped, too, so they couldn’t be held back by the things they hit and just passed right through.” It was like the classic manga vacuum slash ability. There were all sorts of abilities in stories where people could cut through space itself, so that no matter how hard the thing they were trying to cut, they could still slice right through it. And Regulus’s ability allowed something similar. With his time stopped, Regulus Corneas himself was a distortion in space. The bits of dirt that had been suspended in time had the destructive power to break through any and all defenses. It was possible to walk freely across the top of water whose time had been frozen. And he could nullify all attacks against him by simply stopping his own time. It was the ultimate attack and the ultimate defense depending on how it was used. The invincibility was just a side effect of time stopping.

Despite his amateur stance and bearing, his speed was beyond all reason. Every once in a while, Regulus had displayed an ability to instantaneously accelerate that had shocked even Reinhard. However, now that Subaru knew what his power was, he also understood the trick behind that. “Fgh!” That moment, he unleashed all the power he had built up in his right leg, not hesitating as he leaped to the side, dodging in the exact way he had planned before even standing up. Since Regulus could only dash straight forward, his attack completely missed. Regulus’s superhuman change was also an effect of stopping time for his body. By freezing time for his body, he could prevent all physical phenomena from interacting with him. That was the crux of his power. That meant freedom from every possible law that might hold him back. By freeing himself from gravity, air resistance, and conservation of momentum, Regulus gained an extraordinary source of power. But the fact that he didn’t use it more often was probably because he couldn’t fully control it himself—

All thoughts of holding back had gone out the window. This was the limit of his mercy. It didn’t matter that that boy had figured out Lion Heart or that some Sword Saint had showed up again. Even with only five seconds, if he was invincible, there were any number of ways he could kill them all. The only thing that had stopped him was that he didn’t enjoy seeing scenes of despair and the echoes of death cries, so he had chosen to abstain. That was all. With Lion Heart active, Regulus could ignore all the rules of the world if he wanted to. If he used that method, then any being chained down by such concepts couldn’t begin to match him.

All I see here is self time stop granting invulnerability and a resistance to physics manipulation

In the one scan [the second] in which regulus brings up his freedom from every possible law and actually exposit on this freedom in any degree of clarity, beyond just the vaguest notion, all of what he specifically goes about mentioning is in relation to Physical laws aka Gravity, Air Resistance and Conservation of Momentum but non of this inherently has to do with him being in a state of irregular from causality or him being free from causality as a whole.

He doesn't experience change as an obviously side effect of his body being time locked, literally anything in a time stop obviously won't experience change. I don't see how this has an bearing on Acausality besides the mention of the word "Change" but to the best of my knowledge the Wiki doesn't treat every time stopped object as Acausal despite the fact that they inherently won't experience change.

The most glaring and obvious point against the notion of Regulus having Acausality Type 4 is the simple fact that he literally has direct showing of not having any of the inherent resistance that Acausality Type 4 would grant

• He's blatantly not immune to causality manipulation in any way as it is literally on Pandora's profile that she uses causality manipulation on him with 0 issues and specifically explains it all being a natural result of his actions vanishing
• He's blatantly not immune to precognition in any way as it is literally on Regulus' own profile in the standard equipment section that he carries around a book which vaguely tells his own future

The only way to reconcile these clear contradictions to the notion of him having Acausality is to posit that both Pandora's causality manipulation and the Book's Precognition are themselves able to affect irregular systems of causality simply by virtue of them affecting regulus despite neither her/nor anyone else bringing any attention to Regulus' unique state of existence as being something that would otherwise prevent any other causality manipulation/precog from working on him and the fact that Pandora's ability in particular is stated to basically have been the result of her changing the world and the world affirming her word so she's affecting him by altering the causality of the world which obviously wouldn't work if his supposed Acausality put him in a state of irregular causality separate from that of the worlds conventional system of causality.

It would be an extremely generous interpretation of events to assume that both Pandora's ability and the Books precog are simply able to affect irregular causality with little to no actual evidence in way of this being pointed out or mentioned at any point.

I think the qualifications for Acausality Type 4 (especially anything to do with statements of being exempt from laws/rules) are way too lax and generous as they are which leads to too many assumptions.

If we are given a statement that X character is exempt from rules/laws (the nature of this exclusion isn't explained in any sense of detail nor is causality specifically mentioned amongst those laws) -> The character is then assumed by the wiki to have an relevantly irregular relationship to causality and thus they are subsequently assumed to have immunity to Precog/Fate/Causality hax -> Any abilities of this kind which affect them are then assumed to have Acausality bypassing properties

These are extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence but often such cases only just have one or more unexplored statement of being exempt from laws/rules.

Agree: @CurrySenpai, @Rutæhh, @Spectra_Schiffer, @YueNoMoral, @Dark_Soul20189, @EL_xWatcher1234x, @CodeCCLL , @LordGriffin1000 , @Rakih_Elyan
Disagree: @Phoenks, @Zabazab, @SatellaTheWoE, @TheHeavenlySword, @VortechsTG
Neutral:

 

[Aseka]

Following

 

[CurrySenpai]

Agreeing

 

[Rutæhh]

agree

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

agreed

 

[YueNoMoral]

agree, op make sense

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Looks good, I agree.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Agree

 

[Zabazab]

All I see here is self time stop granting invulnerability and a resistance to physics manipulation

It's not a resistance, since Regulus' Authority prevents interaction in the first place. There's nothing to resist.

He's blatantly not immune to causality manipulation in any way as it is literally on Pandora's profile that she uses causality manipulation on him with 0 issues and specifically explains it all being a natural result of his actions vanishing

Regulus himself can't have his body interfered with through Pandora's Authority.

Pandora can use her reality warping to move him elsewhere, as well as undo damage he has done, but it cannot actually effect Regulus himself. It's Regulus himself that is protected by Lion's Heart, not the forest he destroyed. It doesn't extend to anything beyond himself.

He's blatantly not immune to precognition in any way as it is literally on Regulus' own profile in the standard equipment section that he carries around a book which vaguely tells his own future

The Gospel's prophecies are intended to be a guide to reaching a desired future, and are less "X will happen" and more like commands that are aware of the future, and even this future is subject to change.

He doesn't experience change as an obviously side effect of his body being time locked, literally anything in a time stop obviously won't experience change. I don't see how this has an bearing on Acausality besides the mention of the word "Change" but to the best of my knowledge the Wiki doesn't treat every time stopped object as Acausal despite the fact that they inherently won't experience change.

"Literally anything in a timestop obviously won't experience change" just outright is not true in fiction, even in Re:Zero itself.

Within the series, Beatrice's Minya stops the target's time, which causes instant death. Satella stopping time doesn't prevent her from killing people within it. Outside of the series, DIO's timestop doesn't make frozen objects unable to change.

A piece of the evidence for Regulus' ability was also missed, it effectively side-steps the plane of existence;

The high-pitched chant made the Mana inside of Subaru’s damaged Gate sensitive to Beatrice’s manipulation, and from there, exclusive magic which no one else had yet developed was casted. One of three original spells devised by Beatrice and Natsuki Subaru―― the magic of absolute defense, E · M · M, was activated.

Subaru’s body would be wrapped in an invisible magical field which would allow him to sidestep from the plane of existence, nullifying any attack on him, be it physical or magical.

Regulus’s fingertips did not bring any harm to Subaru upon reaching him. Upon witnessing this incident, for the first time, Regulus revealed an expression of stiff shock.

During the activation of E · M · M, Subaru would not receive any interference from the outside world, being rendered unable to move. It was the result of applying all of Beatrice’s Yin magic skill and knowledge into manipulating time and space in a limited area around Subaru.

Subaru: “It’s a bit weird realizing that the effect is similar to that asshole’s―― Guah!?”

The Sin Archbishop of Greed, Regulus, could stop the effect of time on his body by transferring his heart.

E · M · M could be said to be a downsized version of that ability. However, there was no harmful side effect like stopping the heart, so one would become invincible as long as their Mana was not exhausted.

To be given a broad explanation, it was magic of absolute defense, of the kind that stopped the flow of time of Subaru and Beatrice’s flesh bodies, which would thus take no external effect.

Subaru: “We got so hyped when we first devised it, but because the guy who used a similar ability was just the worst, whenever it’s used it feels like using a last resort for survival that I’d never otherwise use!”

Beatrice: “That issue has already been spoken about, in fact! Betty has already decided to close her eyes, I suppose!”

Hearing Subaru’s cries, Beatrice, being lugged on his shoulder, yelled so.

The ability of “invincibility” held by the Sin Archbishop of Greed, Regulus Corneas, was potent might befitting of being labelled as being backward compatible with this E · M · M. Though its user had been the worst, its practical usage was outstanding, at a level which they should be aiming for, yet a territory they did not wish to reach.

 

[TheHeavenlySword]

I disagree

being Isolated from the outside world gave both Beatrice and Anastasia resistance to Ley's Authority which rewrite history so that the person never existed.
this resistance can easily be given to Regulus who is isolated in an even superior manner.

as for the Gospel, it's Content is extremely vague and can be interpreted in many different ways, and we don't necessarily know that it can tell Regulus's Future since it didn't actually serve in his best interest, he wouldn't have followed it if he knew about he's own death.
he could just have it so he can be labeled as an Archbishop and to get commands from it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Disagree for zab and THS's reasons
Actually, adding on.
Leys gluttony is causality manipulation and if you are erased by it then every trace of your existence is removed from the world.
That massacre you committed? Its now blamed on a whole another guy. That room you decorated? Poof! Its an empty guest room now and so on
HOWEVER,

Some time ago, Beatrice, in the Forbidden Library, had once referred to Rem after her Name had been eaten by Gluttony. Subaru had questioned that after she had formed her Contract, after the Forbidden Library had been lost but, this was one conclusion they had reached after their exchange.

Subaru: “When isolated from the outside inside the Forbidden Library, Beako does not get affected by what is outside of the room. That’s why the moment Rem’s Name was eaten, no effect was taken… that’s what I had thought, isn’t it? That’s why, once exited from the room, special treatment would not be given… huh.”

As we can see, isolating themselves from the Space-time via Al Shamak/Forbidden Library/EMM makes it so that you are unaffected by it. Since we know Regulus simply has a superior version this would also translate over to him

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

It's not a resistance, since Regulus' Authority prevents interaction in the first place. There's nothing to resist.

That is a resistance, nothing you said here makes it not a resistance. You can call it unconventional but that's still just a resistance

Regulus himself can't have his body interfered with through Pandora's Authority.

Pandora can use her reality warping to move him elsewhere, as well as undo damage he has done, but it cannot actually effect Regulus himself. It's Regulus himself that is protected by Lion's Heart, not the forest he destroyed. It doesn't extend to anything beyond himself.

Completely irrelevant to the point since moving him and erasing the effects of his actions by way of causality manipulation in the first place would be completely impossible if he had Acausality.

The whole point of type 4 Acausality is that the character would operate on an irregular system of causality meaning that his causality itself would be irregular so the causes and effects in relation to him are irregular thus unaffected by things in relation to the conventional causality - This would make him immune to her moving him by erasing his actions but clearly that's not the case.

Also provide the statement in which they say here Authority can only move him and not affect his body though either way it's not relevant since moving him at all & erasing his actions by way of causality manipulation would be impossible if he had acausality

The Gospel's prophecies are intended to be a guide to reaching a desired future, and are less "X will happen" and more like commands that are aware of the future, and even this future is subject to change.

This all doesn't affect the point at all, if his future is able to be seen by the book whether the books precog is ass enough that the future it shows is vague or subject to change it is all completely impossible if he had Acausality.

If he had Type 4 Acausality the gospel would be completely blank in relation to him

"Literally anything in a timestop obviously won't experience change" just outright is not true in fiction, even in Re:Zero itself.

Within the series, Beatrice's Minya stops the target's time, which causes instant death. Satella stopping time doesn't prevent her from killing people within it. Outside of the series, DIO's timestop doesn't make frozen objects unable to change.

A piece of the evidence for Regulus' ability was also missed, it effectively side-steps the plane of existence;

Beatrice's timestop 'Minya' is a curse that has more than one effect acting alongside it which is responsible for it killing targets because it manifests as a purple crystal that reduces the force of their existence then eventually shatters alongside them but even ignoring that if the fact that it killed the target alone is you're proof of something it won't matter because Regulus' own timestop stops his heart and would kill him ordinarily if he used it for more than a few seconds at a time if not for the fact that he spreads his heart across his wives.

There's variation in how Timestop is portrayed across various series when it comes to how characters are able to interact with stuff affected by. Clock stopper from worm makes objects invulnerable to harm by stopping their time but that doesn't make his timestop Acausality or make the objects locked in timestop acausal. Usually the rules under which things timestopped operate depend on the series but non of that difference matters at all because the wiki doesn't have a rule that automatically treats uninteractable forms of time stop as acausal

A piece of the evidence for Regulus' ability was also missed, it effectively side-steps the plane of existence;

Non of that has anything to do with Acausality Type 4 it be the equivalent of giving Madara's limbo clones acausality because they are completely un interactable by way of not existing in the normal plane of existence.

But I also find the statement of "Side-stepping the plane of existence" vague in what it entails as that could easily just be a way of describing the effects of the timestop, which is the way this ability is actually explained in detail, rather than as completely separate thing from just timestop which if uninteractable can be said to sidestep the current plane of existence because stuff from it can't interact with the stopped object.

being Isolated from the outside world gave both Beatrice and Anastasia resistance to Ley's Authority which rewrite history so that the person never existed.
this resistance can easily be given to Regulus who is isolated in an even superior manner.

These things aren't related and this is reaching, Beatrice is isolated by way of the library which has nothing to do with regulus nor does regulus himself have any feats of resisting the authority

as for the Gospel, it's Content is extremely vague and can be interpreted in many different ways, and we don't necessarily know that it can tell Regulus's Future since it didn't actually serve in his best interest, he wouldn't have followed it if he knew about he's own death.

Whether it's vague, specifically attempting to lead the holder towards a specific future or any of the futures it shows is heavily subjects to change is irrelevant to the point which is that if Regulus had Type 4 Acausality the book would be blank in relation to him full stop.

The statement of him not following it, is in relation to all Archbishops including him which speaks more to their level of obedience/loyalty rather than whether the book contains their futures or not.

Disagree for zab and THS's reasons
Actually, adding on.
Leys gluttony is causality manipulation and if you are erased by it then every trace of your existence is removed from the world.
That massacre you committed? Its now blamed on a whole another guy. That room you decorated? Poof! Its an empty guest room now and so on
HOWEVER,
As we can see, isolating themselves from the Space-time via Al Shamak/Forbidden Library/EMM makes it so that you are unaffected by it. Since we know Regulus simply has a superior version this would also translate over to him

What the scan says is that they are isolated by way of the forbidden library don't conflate stuff that isn't mentioned or said to be the reason for them being unaffected by the effect of gluttony's authority.

As far as I'm aware there isn't a single feat of regulus authority nor anyone in EMM being used to allow one to remain unaffected by that authority.

 

[TheHeavenlySword]

These things aren't related and this is reaching, Beatrice is isolated by way of the library which has nothing to do with regulus nor does regulus himself have any feats of resisting the authority

I think you are ignoring the Anastasia Part, and yes they are related

Whether it's vague, specifically attempting to lead the holder towards a specific future or any of the futures it shows is heavily subjects to change is irrelevant to the point which is that if Regulus had Type 4 Acausality the book would be blank in relation to him full stop.

we don't know what kind of content he has in he's own book, and you can't prove that the book is telling him he's own future.
and as I said before he could just have it so he can be labeled as an Archbishop and to get commands from it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

The gospel is more like an email from your angry boss that knows a bit about the future event but not the actual details tbh

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think you are ignoring the Anastasia Part, and yes they are related

That's not relevant to my point which is that the vague statement of "sidestepping this plane of existence" isn't the same as existing in an isolated dimension and could just be a means of describing the effects of the timestop itself which reads as them circumventing the regular plane of existence by way of not being interactable to it.

Also being unaffected by a widespread change to history because you are in a different isolated dimension at the time of these changes occur isn't acausality type 4 especially if the range of such changes either isn't interdimensional or unable to cross over isolated dimensions

we don't know what kind of content he has in he's own book, and you can't prove that the book is telling him he's own future.
and as I said before he could just have it so he can be labeled as an Archbishop and to get commands from it.

It's already listed on his profile that it contains readings of his future and there's, to the best of my knowledge, no acknowledgment made within the story itself that if the book did contain readings of the holders future he would be immune to it so the burden off proof that the book does not contain his future is on you for which you need to provide actual evidence in the form of some statement/feat where it either shows his book is completely blanked out in relation to him or it is stated that his book cannot determine his future.

The gospel is more like an email from your angry boss that knows a bit about the future event but not the actual details tbh

This is not actual evidence that his future cannot be determined by it nor is it relevant either way because if he's acausal the book or whoever the boss reading the future and inputting information in it would be completely blanked to him whether that future was in detail or not

 

[TheHeavenlySword]

That's not relevant to my point which is that the vague statement of "sidestepping this plane of existence" isn't the same as existing in an isolated dimension and could just be a means of describing the effects of the timestop itself which reads as them circumventing the regular plane of existence by way of not being interactable to it.
Also being unaffected by a widespread change to history because you are in a different isolated dimension at the time of these changes occur isn't acausality type 4 especially if the range of such changes either isn't interdimensional or unable to cross over isolated dimensions

Anastasia was not in a different dimension and she can resist it, and what gives the resistance to Ley's Authority to me is the statement of "not receiving any interference from the outside world" which is literally Lion's Heart in a Nutshell

It's already listed on his profile that it contains readings of his future and there's, to the best of my knowledge, no acknowledgment made within the story itself that if the book did contain readings of the holders future he would be immune to it so the burden off proof that the book does not contain his future is on you for which you need to provide actual evidence in the form of some statement/feat where it either shows his book is completely blanked out in relation to him or it is stated that his book cannot determine his future.

it contain commands that even he is willing to ignore if he didn't like it, how is that Precognition.
the book it self is not well explained to be used as an argument here.
we don't know where does it come from or what type of content is inside of it.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Anastasia was not in a different dimension and she can resist it, and what gives the resistance to Ley's Authority to me is the statement of "not receiving any interference from the outside world" which is literally Lion's Heart in a Nutshell

She can resist it because her non interactable is a result of her being dormant in her Od which is considered a kind of Eigen-World according to the scan itself and in that same scan on the literal prior line they say

And by her own volition, she had secluded herself away in that place.

further clarifying such Eigen-World as being considered a different place

And again there isn't a single statement or feat showing Regulus himself resisting this authority, you are just conflating two separate methods of being uninteractable to the outside world by virtue of them stopping interference. Lionheart in nutshell is self time stop not an Eigen world so equalizing the feats of resistance with that of Anastasia's situation based solely on words like "stopping interference" despite them being achieved through completely different mechanics which would result in differences in properties and outcomes.

it contain commands that even he is willing to ignore if he didn't like it, how is that Precognition.
the book it self is not well explained to be used as an argument here.
we don't know where does it come from or what type of content is inside of it.

The question asked was that would the bishops in general ignore it if it told them to kill themselves and it was said that they wouldn't which is obviously speaking on their level of obedience to the book not whether the book itself has precognition. The statement is talking about the archbishops in general which would include those like Petelguese who whole heartly believes it has precog yet he won't kill himself if it told him to which obvious again, speaks to his level of obedience rather than whether the book itself has precog.

If it did or didn't have precognition one way or another he likely still wouldn't kill himself if it told him to kill himself so it obviously has nothing to do with whether the book has precog

 

[TheHeavenlySword]

She can resist it because her non interactable is a result of her being dormant in her Od which is considered a kind of Eigen-World according to the scan itself and in that same scan on the literal prior line they say

further clarifying such Eigen-World as being considered a different place

And again there isn't a single statement or feat showing Regulus himself resisting this authority, you are just conflating two separate methods of being uninteractable to the outside world by virtue of them stopping interference. Lionheart in nutshell is self time stop not an Eigen world so equalizing the feats of resistance with that of Anastasia's situation based solely on words like "stopping interference" despite them being achieved through completely different mechanics which would result in differences in properties and outcomes.

"kind of Eigen-World" is not a different world, her body, soul, and Od still exist in the same world

The question asked was that would the bishops in general ignore it if it told them to kill themselves and it was said that they wouldn't which is obviously speaking on their level of obedience to the book not whether the book itself has precognition. The statement is talking about the archbishops in general which would include those like Petelguese who whole heartly believes it has precog yet he won't kill himself if it told him to which obvious again, speaks to his level of obedience rather than whether the book itself has precog.

If it did or didn't have precognition one way or another he likely still wouldn't kill himself if it told him to kill himself so it obviously has nothing to do with whether the book has precog

by your own logic killing themselves is a part of their own Future which is not gonna happen
and even the Gospel have lied to Regulus about he's own future

Watergate City Pristella— there, upon seeing the [Gospel]’s writ that the empty wife’s seat could be filled, clearly only fortune had been in his heart.

Regulus: “Such a… foolish unfoldingaaaaah!”

as I said the Gospel is too vague and can't be used as an argument here.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Before getting into this upon review of one of the chapter you got the scan below from I'll say clearly that I was right about the physical laws thing

Using [Lion’s Heart]’s effect of creating a state of invincibility, Regulus could ignore every physical law in the world if he so wished. Reaching speeds that could outpace the wind, in that logic defying moment, with power so overwhelming the denizens of this world could not conceive, he’d turn them into corpses.

If he used the authority of [Greed] to take him higher into the sky, it’d be easy enough to kill them by scattering sand into the city. Although the other Sin Archbishops had also come to the city, he couldn’t care less whether they lived or died. At the moment, washing his own humiliation clean was the priority. He would have the faces of those fools who boasted of victory be painted with horror.

At no point is regulus' exemption from laws/rules expanded upon in any way that would indicate an irregular relationship to causality and the only time it's ever further clarified in which he mentions the examples of what he can ignore it's all physical laws - couple this with the fact that here he specifically says physical laws it's becomes clear that this supposed justification for Acausality isn't viable

but moving on

"kind of Eigen-World" is not a different world, her body, soul, and Od still exist in the same world

Whether it is or not is irrelevant as it is a irrespective of that it's a completely different mechanic than that of Regulus' Authority but even ignoring that Eigen just means "Own" or 'It's own" in german and the fact that they clarify it as a different place solidifies the reasoning of it being some form of a separate world.

by your own logic killing themselves is a part of their own Future which is not gonna happen
and even the Gospel have lied to Regulus about he's own future

Watergate City Pristella— there, upon seeing the [Gospel]’s writ that the empty wife’s seat could be filled, clearly only fortune had been in his heart.

Regulus: “Such a… foolish unfoldingaaaaah!”

as I said the content of the Gospel can't be used here

And your not even engaging with the point at hand including the fact that Petelguese who believes in the precog still won't agree to just kill himself on the spot either way so using anything to do with the statement relating to whether they would kill themselves is bogus

As i already said before, the book being vague, trying to direct them to a certain future by obscuring details/being intentionally misleading or providing futures that can be changed depending on the user doesn't matter either way because as long as it contains info of the future it about Regulus himself it serves as a point against Regulus having acausality.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I basically agree with this, Regulus' ability is simply to stopped time on himself, time has to flow for causes to connect to an effect, in the absence of time causal events cannot occur, Regulus removes time from the equation of cause and effect by eliminating the flow of time in the first place and according wiki standards this is doesn't constitute evidence that it is in an irregular relationship with causality, operates on a different cause-effect system, or is independent of cause-effect systems. Finally, a good example of this is that we don't assume that areas where time has stopped or doesn't exist at all are independent of temporal forces, because firstly, we cannot talk about temporal forces in an areas where time doesn't exist. So if Regulus already has any anti-feat this should really be removed.

 

[CurrySenpai]

It may be joever

 

[Phoenks]

Curry Senpai's name should not be bold. They do not count as staff.

In any case...

Pandora should not be used here as evidence whatsoever. Her authority is incredibly vague and even treating it as Causality Manipulation is a pretty iffy thing to do. Moreover, Pandora being able to affect Regulus at all with her ability would just mean she can affect irregulars. Regulus has demonstrated to not experience change on essentially every other occasion, and as Zab said, reversing the effects of Regulus is not the equivalent of reversing Regulus himself.

The Gospel's are only telling of very few events that are likely happen in the future, but are subject to change. It is actually more equivalent to analytical prediction, not precognition, because they simply predict the future, they don't tell it outright.

If we are given a statement that X character is exempt from rules/laws (the nature of this exclusion isn't explained in any sense of detail nor is causality specifically mentioned amongst those laws) -> The character is then assumed by the wiki to have an relevantly irregular relationship to causality and thus they are subsequently assumed to have immunity to Precog/Fate/Causality hax -> Any abilities of this kind which affect them are then assumed to have Acausality bypassing properties

We are given a statement that verbatim says Reinhard doesn't experience change due stopped time, and goes into detail on how that means not getting wet, not getting hurt, etc - causes do not affect him. He ignores every rule and law in the world. -> Already proves an irregular relationship with causality.


There are no assumptions. There are no contradictions.


Disagree.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Pandora should not be used here as evidence whatsoever. Her authority is incredibly vague and even treating it as Causality Manipulation is a pretty iffy thing to do. Moreover, Pandora being able to affect Regulus at all with her ability would just mean she can affect irregulars. Regulus has demonstrated to not experience change on essentially every other occasion, and as Zab said, reversing the effects of Regulus is not the equivalent of reversing Regulus himself.

Doesn't sound vague to me considering the specific application of the authority which affected regulus as listed on the profile is explicitly causality manipulation

"It's a simple matter. If the Archbishop Corneas was never here, it follows that all the results of Archbishop Corneas's actions would also vanish."

This is undeniably Causality Manipulation - Now whether or not you think in a broader sense her Authority utilizes some other ability from which the causality manipulation is derived it doesn't really matter since the specific application of said Authority which affected regulus pretty explicitly is the causality manipulation.

Causality Manipulation can be achieved either as it's own ability or as a derivative of other abilities like Law Manipulation, Concept manipulation, reality warping, information manipulation etc but when it comes to Acausality often distinctions of what specific ability the causality manipulation is derived from is irrelevant as the Acausal being would still be considered immunized to such causal interactions either way. If this weren't the case every Acausal being would be treated as only immune to causal based abilities [Causality Manip/Fate Manip/Precog] in the specific context of whatever other ability it is derived from in their own verse.

I already outlined in the OP that the presumption of her just being specially able to affect irregular causality is completely unviable

The only way to reconcile these clear contradictions to the notion of him having Acausality is to posit that both Pandora's causality manipulation and the Book's Precognition are themselves able to affect irregular systems of causality simply by virtue of them affecting regulus despite neither her/nor anyone else bringing any attention to Regulus' unique state of existence as being something that would otherwise prevent any other causality manipulation/precog from working on him and the fact that Pandora's ability in particular is stated to basically have been the result of her changing the world and the world affirming her word so she's affecting him by altering the causality of the world which obviously wouldn't work if his supposed Acausality put him in a state of irregular causality separate from that of the worlds conventional system of causality.

Zabs point is completely irrelevant as I already outlined

The whole point of type 4 Acausality is that the character would operate on an irregular system of causality meaning that his causality itself would be irregular so the causes and effects in relation to him are irregular thus unaffected by things in relation to the conventional causality - This would make him immune to her moving him by erasing his actions but clearly that's not the case.

The Gospel's are only telling of very few events that are likely happen in the future, but are subject to change. It is actually more equivalent to analytical prediction, not precognition, because they simply predict the future, they don't tell it outright.

That's not analytical prediction, analytical prediction would be indicated if these predicted events were the result of some analysis of information in the present or past. Whether or not the future is deterministic or probabilistic[Indeterministic] is irrelevant to the point and does not indicate the book is using analytical prediction

We are given a statement that verbatim says Reinhard doesn't experience change and goes into detail on how that means not getting wet, not getting hurt, etc. He ignores every rule and law in the world. -> Already proves an irregular relationship with causality.

Anything that is timelocked in such a way inherently doesn't experience change, that's not inherently acausality type 4.

As I've already said beyond the vaguest notion of the statement "Ignore all rules" the only time he explores this by listing examples they are all physical laws and he himself even has a statement saying he ignores all "Physical laws" which in context of the examples he gave in one of the other statements even despite being more vague and saying juts "Laws" is clearly an indication that Physical Laws are specifically what he ignores

 

[CurrySenpai]

From what I can tell this is less of a he doesn’t have an ability and more of a the ability does not fit the actual definition or conditions required to get Acasuality Type 4 which is already hard enough to get as is iirc

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

We are given a statement that verbatim says Reinhard doesn't experience change due stopped time, and goes into detail on how that means not getting wet, not getting hurt, etc - causes do not affect him. He ignores every rule and law in the world. -> Already proves an irregular relationship with causality.

That can be done by stopping the object's time.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

From what I can tell this is less of a he doesn’t have an ability and more of a the ability does not fit the actual definition or conditions required to get Acasuality Type 4 which is already hard enough to get as is iirc

Can you from FC/OC ping staff? Otherwise, ping some of the staff who have knowledge of type 4. Although I'm not the one who would be serious, perhaps apart from Glass who was responsible for a type 5 evaluation thread.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Can you from FC/OC appoint staff? Otherwise, ping some of the staff who have knowledge of type 4. Although I'm not the one who would be serious, perhaps apart from Glass who was responsible for a type 5 evaluation thread.

appoint? If you mean ping I THINK I can but that’s a question for phoenks not me. I’d rather not do that though since I TECHNICALLY don’t have jurisdiction to do so, or well I don’t know if it’d be okay.

 

[Fezzih_007]

For eg, Reinhard's blessing can be either law hax, probability hax or fate hax. We dont know for sure so we indexed it as probability but later on if enough information comes we could change it to fate hax

Are you talking about his dodging and guarente hits blessings? Because they definitelly not Fate hax, what?


But for this CRT, i gonna comment tomorrow for what are my troughts.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

another thing is that in that very same chapter when he turned off his authority it's stated that the laws of physics were restored

Five seconds had passed. Sirens began to blare, as Regulus found himself confused over his judgment. Stopping his heart within his own body for more than five seconds wasn’t feasible. The number of seconds that he could hold it at maximum, was perhaps less than ten. And even if he could extend it, that was just more distance he dug.

But here, what would happen if he dispelled his ability while drilling into the ground?

—There was no time to debate. Heart stopping or brain dying or whatever, stupidity should have a limit.

Regulus: “Uuuuuuuu—!”

Gritting his teeth in preparation for the shock that was about to meet him, Regulus strengthened his resolve.

Hearing the sound of his heart which demanded to resume its beat, Regulus lifted the effect of [Lion’s Heart], let go of his invincibility, and the laws of physics were restored—

Regulus: “Bu, ue—!”

beyond that

Just to clarify,an ability being listed under something doesn't necessarily mean it IS that ability.
For eg, Reinhard's blessing can be either law hax, probability hax or fate hax. We dont know for sure so we indexed it as probability but later on if enough information comes we could change it to fate hax. Call it a temporary fix. In Pandora's case her ability can just be 4D reality warp but currently we dont know where to put it so its just under causality manipulation because we dont hafe anywhere else to put it
Using that is hardly an arguement

That's not relevant to pandora, the specific application of her ability she used on Regulus is clearly and undeniably causality manipulation. Reinhards blessing or arrow avoidance is vague on the explicit details of the mechanics which is why there's some wiggle room regarding what it is indexed as but the specific application of Pandora's Authority which she used on Regulus has it's mechanics explained clearly without the same level of vagueness as Reinhard's blessing and it is undeniably causality manipulation.

We can exam the blessing compared to the relevant application of Pandora's authority here, as it simply states:

Blessing of Arrow Avoidance: Projectiles or long-distance attacks cannot hit him.

while the anime depiction shows the projectile simply swerving away from him

These two pieces of information are, to my knowledge, the only thing we have as to what the blessing does because there's no explanation of it's mechanics which is remarkably different from what pandora did because she clearly explains the mechanics behind what she did to regulus:

"It's a simple matter. If the Archbishop Corneas was never here, it follows that all the results of Archbishop Corneas's actions would also vanish."

The only way to compare these two situations would be if Pandora simply never said this and all we had to go off judging the effect she induced on regulus was the anime scene where it all happened, then there would be a degree of vagueness enough for a different interpretation but clearly that's not what happened.

She's specifically erasing his actions [A Cause] to remove the results of said actions [The Effects of that Cause] which is clearly causality manipulation - As I already pointed out whether you believe that at a fundamental level her Authority itself is something else it doesn't matter in the slightest because the application of that separate ability relevant to this discussion is undeniably causality manipulation.

I've already said it before but I'll repeat myself:

Causality Manipulation can be achieved either as it's own ability or as a derivative of other abilities like Law Manipulation, Concept manipulation, reality warping, information manipulation etc but when it comes to Acausality often distinctions of what specific ability the causality manipulation is derived from is irrelevant as the Acausal being would still be considered immunized to such causal interactions either way. If this weren't the case every Acausal being would be treated as only immune to causal based abilities [Causality Manip/Fate Manip/Precog] in the specific context of whatever other ability it is derived from in their own verse.

A concept user or reality warper can be capable of using these abilities to do various things ranging from transmutation to causality manipulation. Despite the reality warper/Concept user being able to affect an acausal being with many of the other applications of their powers if they use said power in a way which constitutes causality manipulation an acausal being would be immune to that specific application of it.

Character all across the wiki have causality manipulation as a derivative of a different broader ability like Misogi Kumagawa's causality manipulation which is a derivative application of his subjective reality or Wei Shi Lindons causality manipulation which is a derivative application of his concept manipulation and while both the subjective reality and concept manipulation abilities would affect an acausal being the specific application of those abilities which constitute causality manipulation specifically won't.

If the wiki operated under the logic that Acausality didn't immunized you from a specific means of causality manipulation if they were derived from a different ability then guys like Kratos who's verse doesn't have info or data hax would automatically have his acausality bypassed by any form of causality manipulation as long as it is a subset of those abilities which clearly isn't how that is treated by the wiki

It's not "Hardly an argument" it's a very clear and obviously correct argument

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

Try calling some staff members for this crt, on his message board.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I would recommened asking @Celestial_Pegasus, @Elizhaa, @Abstractions and @DarkDragonMedeus (I know this dose not ping them) for them to evaluate the thread on their message walls.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I would recommened asking @Celestial_Pegasus, @Elizhaa, @Abstractions and @DarkDragonMedeus (I know this dose not ping them) for them to evaluate the thread on their message walls.

I've posted the thread on Pegasus's profile.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

bump

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Staff members:

Staff members

vsbattles.com

 

[Zabazab]

Had a big long debate elsewhere and decided I agree with removing Acausality Type 4.

I was the one that originally added Acaus4 due to the note on Acaus5 which stated being independent of laws, space time, etc. being evidence of irregular causality.

Instead of Acausality (which runs into the issues pointed out in the OP), it's been suggested to me that just Causality Manipulation– not too dissimilar to a character from another series– fits better due to the strange condition that Regulus' body enters into that differs from it's usual (still invincible) state.

In this state, Regulus outright rejects anything that tries to interact with him, preventing phenomena from interacting with his body.

Regulus no longer receives the impact of blows:

But just as Regulus’s splashes were actually the destructive manifestations of raw violence, Reinhard’s swordplay revealed an inhuman level of martial prowess—each and every blow would have been strong enough to end a fight against any other opponent. The scene beggared belief and defied description. And on top of that, something had changed in a way that was terribly ominous— “He’s stopped getting knocked back when he gets hit.”

Even as Subaru watched, Regulus took a hit to his temple, but his face didn’t whip to the side as expected. He simply brushed his hand at it as if shooing away a bug. Reinhard’s blows were landing, but Regulus had stopped experiencing any sort of impact. At some point, Reinhard had also started standing on top of the water like Regulus as their fight continued. Their superhuman clash went back and forth. Perhaps it was more accurately described as a deadlock.

Regulus' body outright rejects things that try to interact with him, annihilating them:

Crusch squinted her eyes, the same instant Rem heard a noise and raised her head.

What Crusch’s eyes captured was something off about the dragon carriage up ahead. The noise Rem heard came from the same direction. In fact, both clues were leading to the same conclusion.

In Crusch’s eyes, the dragon carriage disintegrated. In Rem’s ears, the prelude to collapse echoed like the sound of raindrops.

A mist of blood sprayed out. The image of the dragon carriage in front of them suddenly transformed into a pitiful blur.

The ground dragon, the carriage, and all the wounded inside were completely uprooted, and then shattered mercilessly by overwhelming devastation.

But the fact is, upon encountering this man, the ground dragon was ripped in two, its feet still in mid-stride, and then, along with the driver and carriage, shattered into countless indiscernible pieces.

The most frightening part is, though Rem never looked away, all she saw was this man merely standing there.

Not doing anything, just by standing there the man survived collision with a charging dragon carriage, and still stood there as if it were nothing.

――The water dragon’s maw jerked out of place at the very moment it had clamped down onto Regulus.

As if in a game of Daruma Otoshi, the water dragon’s lower jaw was dislocated. Keeping its momentum as it flew toward Regulus, its mandible was displaced. A maw which should have dragged Regulus into the canal. However, unable to correct the dislocation, it split in two with a great shudder.

The halves of the bisected water dragon poured blood into the water as they were submerged. After a moment, an exaggerated amount of blood and viscera that once been a water dragon floated to the surface. This had been its gruesome demise.

Grasping the ice spear, he drew his wrist back to aim Regulus, and let the missile fly.

The spear flew true—― however, it was not the sharp tip that had been pointed at Regulus. As it turned to its side, its shaft scored a direct hit. But what had happened, was that when the shaft of the spear crashed against Regulus, it fell straight into the waterway, broken into two.

Emilia: “What is the meaning of this…?”

Subaru: “I see… I get it, Reinhard.” Seeing the state of the broken spear, Emilia tilted her head in confusion. From beside her, Subaru grasped the meaning behind why Reinhard had done this, shuddering at its outcome.

Hearing Subaru’s acknowledgement, Reinhard nodded and said,

Reinhard: “Emilia-sama, did you see what happened to the spear upon hitting him?”

Emilia: “It broke, right? A spear of ice is different from a real one, so it’s natural for it to have broken in two after it struck with that sort of force…”

Reinhard: “Not quite, the spear did not break. The part of the spear that hit him is missing. The spear was broken not into two, but three.”

Reinhard’s explanation served as an answer to what had happened to the spear and with the water dragon.

Neither object, upon contact with Regulus, had managed to penetrate his body. With an ordinary barrier, the collision would have caused a projectile to bounce off or shatter from the impact, but neither had happened. Regulus’s body literally rejected anything that collided with it.

Those droplets of blood, touching Regulus’s body, became simple droplets on the spot and splashed off his form. Obviously, the priority was different.

At that same moment, Reinhard suddenly released his grip on Regulus’s leg.

He was an intelligent fellow. If he had let the droplets reach him as such, his palm would have turned into a mess which could not possibly grasp a sword again. The force of the swing disappeared. Landing there onto the street, Regulus once again faced Reinhard.

The latter narrowed his eyes in warning.

Reinhard: “Somehow, it no longer seems possible to touch him again.”

Regulus: “It seems you have a keen nose, do you want to get hurt again like you did a while ago?”

Reinhard: “From now on, I will be wary of your breath and vision both. If there are any other precautions to take, I would be glad to hear them.”

Regulus causes strange, varied phenomena with Lion's Heart:

There had been all sorts of odd phenomena throughout the fight. The way Reinhard had passed through solid ice like a cartoon character after being kicked and the way Regulus had done the same. The way bits of dirt and water droplets were transformed into weapons of mass destruction. And the occasionally unnatural physical abilities Regulus exhibited. Those should all be a function of his ability.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

Regulus having Causality Manipulation makes sense to me, I agree

 

[VortechsTG]

Yeah, ok, I can get behind that. That makes sense and fixes the problems either acausality or just time stop would have.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Had a big long debate elsewhere and decided I agree with removing Acausality Type 4.

I was the one that originally added Acaus4 due to the note on Acaus5 which stated being independent of laws, space time, etc. being evidence of irregular causality.

Instead of Acausality (which runs into the issues pointed out in the OP), it's been suggested to me that just Causality Manipulation– not too dissimilar to a character from another series– fits better due to the strange condition that Regulus' body enters into that differs from it's usual (still invincible) state.

In this state, Regulus outright rejects anything that tries to interact with him, preventing phenomena from interacting with his body.

Regulus no longer receives the impact of blows:


Regulus' body outright rejects things that try to interact with him, annihilating them:






Regulus causes strange, varied phenomena with Lion's Heart:

Well considering the OP I obviously agree with the removal but i disagree with relabeling his ability causality manipulation. For one thing I don't see the actual correlation between regulus and Tykki nor is anything you listed uniquely identifiable as causality manipulation

Tykki's means of being uninteractable is just selective intangibility where he can choose what does and doesn't interact with him resulting in objects he doesn't willingly want to interact with phasing through him which is remarkably different from regulus in both explained methodology and visual effect as Regulus stops time for his body while selectively ignoring physical laws causing things to be unable to damage his body.

On closer inspection of Tykki's profile I don't even see anything in the justification given for his intangibility that would constitute it being labelled Causality manipulation in the first place so I might make a thread on him at some point in the near future to remove that:

Causality Manipulation, Enhanced Intangibility, Flight and Durability Negation (As the Noah of "Pleasure", Tyki Mikk can "choose" what he interacts with or not, allowing him to do things such as "choose" to interact with "Air", giving him the ability of Pseudo-Flight or "choose" to not interact with someone's body, allowing him to negate their conventional durability or "choose" to have people not interact with him, giving him a semi-passive form of Intangibility within combat-based scenarios, this level of Intang allows Tyki to phase through Dark Matter)

[Lion's Heart] is itself very clearly to me a Self-Time Stop ability resulting in invulnerability with elements of ignoring physics due to that timestop. There could be some agreement that the removal of physics caused by [Lion's Heart] is selective similarly to Tykki (though that's the only similarity) based on clearly obvious fact like how regulus doesn't ignore the rotation & motion of the planet nor it's gravity usually though if he so chooses to ignore those he can.

Regulus no longer receives the impact of blows:

Regulus' body outright rejects things that try to interact with him, annihilating them:

I've looked for an Author Q& A on regulus which i remembered seeing a while ago and ended up finding it on reddit as well as on the Re:Zero discussion page here on the wiki but I can't find the original source, in that Q&A he explained why regulus destroys some stuff that comes in contact with him while not destroy other stuff and the answer was that he stops the time of stuff he doesn't wants to interact with normally

Q: I thought Regulus was able to hold things normally, but he can pass through them or destroy them; how does he turn that on and off?

A: He simply uses ‘Time Stop’ on anything he wants to grab, and doesn’t stop the time of what he destroys.

Basically regulus being able to hold onto to some stuff is a result of him also stopping time for that stuff while anything that doesn't have time stopped for them gets damaged or uniformly pierced when in contact with a time stopped object because that object retains it's momentum while simultaneously not experiencing any of the opposing forces [like an objects Resistive force] that would ordinarily act in the opposite direction of it's movement to change it by way of slow it to an eventual halt or stopping it entirely when it comes in contact with a usually more physically durable material.

Regulus causes strange, varied phenomena with Lion's Heart:

Things stopped in time by [Lion's Heart] passing through other objects without resistance is a relatively known property of the effects it induces so when Reinhard got hit through ice in a similar fashion to regulus himself could be a result of regulus having stopped his time when he hit him through the ice

The water droplet/dirt thing is already an outlined result of regulus stopping time for those objects which effectively makes them unstoppable in motion and as outlined in Arc 5 when Reinhard kicked regulus through the earth whatever is stopped in time at the moment of movement retains than momentum indefinitely till the time stop is removed and physics is restored

Toward the center of Regulus’s back, Reinhardt swung his hand like a blade.

Regulus received an attack even more piercing than an actual blade would deal, but he took the impact with his invincibility, and slammed downward in one motion.

Accelerating toward the ground, Regulus slammed straight into the slate. However, the effect of the [Lion’s Heart] persisted, and his body continued to dig into the earth as if being swallowed.

Regulus’s body penetrated the paving in a line, crossing a rigid sheet of rock to drill through the earth. While helplessly continuing to drill into the ground, Regulus suddenly noticed.

If this momentum were left untouched, his body would plummet to the lowest level of the earth. He’d never considered whether or not there was a lowest level before. But, the land of this world was not endless. Surrounded as it was by the Great Cascade, at the end of this would be where those falls flowed to.

If he kept falling like so, was that where he would wind up?

Regulus: “Something like this, how could I endure… guu!?”

Literally, the limitless horror had made Regulus hold his breath, reaching the limit of his heart.

Five seconds had passed. Sirens began to blare, as Regulus found himself confused over his judgment. Stopping his heart within his own body for more than five seconds wasn’t feasible. The number of seconds that he could hold it at maximum, was perhaps less than ten. And even if he could extend it, that was just more distance he dug.

But here, what would happen if he dispelled his ability while drilling into the ground?

—There was no time to debate. Heart stopping or brain dying or whatever, stupidity should have a limit.

Regulus: “Uuuuuuuu—!”

Gritting his teeth in preparation for the shock that was about to meet him, Regulus strengthened his resolve.

Hearing the sound of his heart which demanded to resume its beat, Regulus lifted the effect of [Lion’s Heart], let go of his invincibility, and the laws of physics were restored—

 

[Zabazab]

Tykki's means of being uninteractable is just selective intangibility where he can choose what does and doesn't interact with him resulting in objects he doesn't willingly want to interact with phasing through him which is remarkably different from regulus in both explained methodology and visual effect as Regulus stops time for his body while selectively ignoring physical laws causing things to be unable to damage his body.

On closer inspection of Tykki's profile I don't even see anything in the justification given for his intangibility that would constitute it being labelled Causality manipulation in the first place so I might make a thread on him at some point in the near future to remove that:

According to the thread that added his causality manip, it comes from his ability to choose to "interact" or "reject"– this "reject" part is what particularly stuck out to me as reminiscent of Lion's Heart, which can violently reject phenomena.

But, I'm not a supporter of that series, so I can't give anything concrete on that side. They basically just compared it to Orihime

Basically regulus being able to hold onto to some stuff is a result of him also stopping time for that stuff while anything that doesn't have time stopped for them gets damaged or uniformly pierced when in contact with a time stopped object because that object retains it's momentum while simultaneously not experiencing any of the opposing forces [like an objects Resistive force] that would ordinarily act in the opposite direction of it's movement to change it by way of slow it to an eventual halt or stopping it entirely when it comes in contact with a usually more physically durable material.

The source for the Q&A is Ask.fm, a source which Tappei has admitted to being unreliable in many aspects as the answers are on a whim and heavily subject to change, unlike proper Birthday or Event Q&As on sites like twitter.

Basically, we see plenty of things that aren't destroyed in Regulus' invincible state. Reinhard can toss him around by the legs, magic can send him flying, etc. But then there are cases where just touching him causes one to be violently torn apart, ranging from bisection to outright vanishing. The quote of Reinhard "suddenly feeling unable to touch him" sticks out.

Regulus definitely isn't deciding to Timestop Reinhard who's flinging him around, so the fact that he isn't destroyed makes the Q&A less reliable. The "rejection of all phenomena" is a conscious application of Lion's Heart rather than being akin to the unconscious invincibility of Still Time.

Things stopped in time by [Lion's Heart]

I understand the basic applications of Lion's Heart of course– duraneg pebbles, frozen momentum, time cut off from the world's, etc. There are far stranger phenomena he employs; creating constructs from water, causing water to explode when he steps on it, creating a giant tidal wave from a simple splash. He's causing massively exaggerated effects from simple acts like splashing or walking. The very fact that his strikes cause massive shockwaves would be strange itself, given forces shouldn't be applying.