Re:Zero Acausality Removal [Regulus] | The Rules are way to lax anyway

[SatellaTheWoE]

@Sonoftanavast9
I see you have been specifying that he can only reject physical laws when that is only partially true since soul, mind and other forms of non physical hax are also uninteractable including Carmilla's death hax

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Physics manipulation ?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

According to the thread that added his causality manip, it comes from his ability to choose to "interact" or "reject"– this "reject" part is what particularly stuck out to me as reminiscent of Lion's Heart, which can violently reject phenomena.

If that's what the thread used to give him causality manipulation then I will definitely look into that after this because that on it's own has literally nothing to do with causality manipulation.

Now the word "reject" is used in relation to causality manipulation but only in the context of "Rejecting events" to nullify their results aka a clear manipulation of a Cause [the events] and effect [the result of that event]. The word reject on it's own shouldn't have been used to give causality manipulation if it's in the context of rejecting interaction or something else besides events/causes.

But, I'm not a supporter of that series, so I can't give anything concrete on that side. They basically just compared it to Orihime

Now orihime is exactly what I'm talking about, the reason she can get causality manipulation is due to a statement involving the rejection of phenomena in which she specifically said to make it as if the damage caused by said phenomena never happened which is causality manipulation. The highlighted parts are what are relevant to why Orihime has causality manipulation:

Her powers limit, reject and deny all phenomena that have affected the subject, she can make it as if the damage never happened

The cause in this case is the phenomena being rejected while the effect are the result of that phenomena which are removed when orihime rejects the phenomena itself even after it has already affected the subject making it as if the result never happened.

The source for the Q&A is Ask.fm, a source which Tappei has admitted to being unreliable in many aspects as the answers are on a whim and heavily subject to change, unlike proper Birthday or Event Q&As on sites like twitter.

Basically, we see plenty of things that aren't destroyed in Regulus' invincible state. Reinhard can toss him around by the legs, magic can send him flying, etc. But then there are cases where just touching him causes one to be violently torn apart, ranging from bisection to outright vanishing. The quote of Reinhard "suddenly feeling unable to touch him" sticks out.

Regulus definitely isn't deciding to Timestop Reinhard who's flinging him around, so the fact that he isn't destroyed makes the Q&A less reliable. The "rejection of all phenomena" is a conscious application of Lion's Heart rather than being akin to the unconscious invincibility of Still Time.

Unless I see some direct contradiction to the answer in the Q&A itself it don't really see why it won't be a pretty good answer to the dilemma but either way as I already said above the way in which regulus interacts with physics is definitely selective [That's pretty much intuitively obvious from the fact that stuff like the earths gravity is definitely acting on him but he states that he can ignore it] which is why his interaction with stuff varies from him being movable by them, to him being immovable to him destroying them on contact.

We also already know from the quote from the arc 5 itself that i posted that momentum on a timestop object is retained indefinitly till the timestop ends and that since the object is stopped in time it can't be held back by whatever hits it, though even will all this the simple fact that regulus can choose various ways to interact with objects isn't on itself causality manipulation

I understand the basic applications of Lion's Heart of course– duraneg pebbles, frozen momentum, time cut off from the world's, etc. There are far stranger phenomena he employs; creating constructs from water, causing water to explode when he steps on it, creating a giant tidal wave from a simple splash. He's causing massively exaggerated effects from simple acts like splashing or walking. The very fact that his strikes cause massive shockwaves would be strange itself, given forces shouldn't be applying.

The water construct can be explained by him just freezing a specific part of the water while leaving the rest, like he could apply his timefreeze on the body of water to a certain range which depending on the dimensions of that range can result in a time frozen section of water in various shapes, I haven't seen the scans for the explosion/shockwave/wave but that ability of causing disproportional damage could be a result of the fact that his momentum is maintained on the subject without being reduced so essentially it's going to keep building until he stops

@Sonoftanavast9
I see you have been specifying that he can only reject physical laws when that is only partially true since soul, mind and other forms of non physical hax are also uninteractable including Carmilla's death hax

Thats a natural result of the timestop acting on him, unless the soul & mind in rezero is like beyond time or something it would be affected by him stopping his own time. To the best of my knowledge peoples souls/minds etc. are assumed to be kinda immaterially layered over their bodies or immaterially inside the bodies so if the body is frozen in time affected them would logically not be viable though this can vary from verse to verse depending on the way the Author chooses to portray the supposed timefreeze & the mechanics of souls but with no explicit statement of the soul being unaffected by altering time in verse then his time stop stopping stuff from affecting his soul is just a logical extension of the idea. Like most incorporeal beings which exists as just souls/conscious aren't automatically assumed immune to time stop on the wiki so time stop logically will affect his soul/mind etc. - This argument essentially would mean any incorporeal spiritual/mental etc. being would be immune to timestop automatically.

Edit: On some further thought I think there's more valid arguments to be made for classifying regulus's ability as Space-Time Manipulation granting invulnerability and an unconventional resistance to physics manipulation because of this scan where Subaru says that with his timestop he is a distortion in space though based on the fact he was talking about regulus's time stops durability negation being analogues to the common manga abilities which cut space it could be an analogy calling back to that though I think it's stronger as an argument than causality manipulation

 

[LordGinSama]

Instead of Acausality (which runs into the issues pointed out in the OP), it's been suggested to me that just Causality Manipulation– not too dissimilar to a character from another series– fits better due to the strange condition that Regulus' body enters into that differs from it's usual (still invincible) state.

Tyki doesn't work as a good example here. Tyki is pretty explicit. As the Noah of Pleasure, Tyki can "choose" anything within this world. This comparison doesn't work much.

 

[Zabazab]

Unless I see some direct contradiction to the answer in the Q&A itself it don't really see why it won't be a pretty good answer to the dilemma but either way as I already said above the way in which regulus interacts with physics is definitely selective [That's pretty much intuitively obvious from the fact that stuff like the earths gravity is definitely acting on him but he states that he can ignore it] which is why his interaction with stuff varies from him being movable by them, to him being immovable to him destroying them on contact.

The direct contradiction is that Reinhard can swing Regulus around by the ankle without issue unless Regulus chooses to "reject all phenomena". If the Q&A was correct, then Regulus would unconsciously destroy everything he touches, and need to consciously choose to not destroy, in this case, Reinhard's palm. In the Novel it's fairly clearly the reverse.

The water construct can be explained by him just freezing a specific part of the water while leaving the rest, like he could apply his timefreeze on the body of water to a certain range which depending on the dimensions of that range can result in a time frozen section of water in various shapes

While this works to explain simply things like him creating a table out of water, there are instances where he creates & controls constructs;

A whirlpool quickly formed at the spot where the wave split in half, and Regulus stood with his arms calmly crossed at the very center. With a single step, he created a pillar of water that he rode upward, flying at Reinhard.

Regulus roared as the mass of water he was holding above his head slowly came apart bit by bit before bursting all at once with dreadful force. The inertia was so great that the water droplets seemed like they chased after Subaru and Emilia running in the distance, tearing apart the buildings and streets in between, breaking and shattering everything as the wave of destruction came closer.

I haven't seen the scans for the explosion/shockwave/wave but that ability of causing disproportional damage could be a result of the fact that his momentum is maintained on the subject without being reduced so essentially it's going to keep building until he stops

The ability to generate superhuman force, in my mind, is the strangest application of Lion's Heart. Rather than preventing change or interaction, he's causing impossible results from meagre actions;

It wouldn’t be surprising if a direct attack from him transformed his victim into shapeless gore. Reinhard immediately blocked the kick with the sheath of the Dragon Sword, but— “Gh…!”

“What is that annoying sword made of? And it’s absurd that it can’t be drawn, either. That’s what you call living beyond your means. Not that I can understand what that feels like!” A shock wave shot out, creating a ripple centered around them on the water’s surface.

An instant later, the water exploded and sent Reinhard flying. He hurtled away at incredible speed, like a rubber ball that had hit the limit of its elasticity. The kick contained enough force to gouge the road and blow away the whole canal. All that energy had been imparted to Reinhard.

Regulus shouted as he kicked the water’s surface, unleashing a tsunami-like torrent toward Emilia and Subaru. As payback for that enormous hunk of ice, this time he unleashed an attack that they couldn’t escape.

“Begone with you.” It was a brief, quiet statement, belying the real rage and murderous intent hidden behind it.

One step behind in his chase, Regulus reached his hand beneath the surface and flipped the water as if he was tipping over a table. Another enormous wave crested once more before crashing toward Subaru and Emilia.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

The direct contradiction is that Reinhard can swing Regulus around by the ankle without issue unless Regulus chooses to "reject all phenomena". If the Q&A was correct, then Regulus would unconsciously destroy everything he touches, and need to consciously choose to not destroy, in this case, Reinhard's palm. In the Novel it's fairly clearly the reverse.

Even if some gaps in our understanding of the exact mechanism of what Regulus does in certain scenes exists I don't think filling those gaps with the presumption of it being causality manipulation is viable, especially since we have no actual proof of some mechanism altering cause and effect occurring.

The use of the words "Rejecting Phenomena" on their own aren't automatically causality manipulation. I've already outlined with the Orihime example that the statement relevant to her ability which classifies it as causality manipulation has to do with her removing the results of said phenomena after they have already happened in a way that there is a clear cause and effect relationship being altered -

• The Phenomena in this situation is the [CAUSE]
• The damage done by said phenomena is the [EFFECT]
• Orihime can reject the [CAUSE] itself which in turn removes the already existing [EFFECT] after these events have already transpired making it as if these events had never happened

If we agree that we haven't been given a full in-depth explanation for some of the mechanics behind what Regulus does it's safer to assume that they are the result of his physics manipulation [by way of selectively choosing to ignore physical laws] which is already established as a pre-existing mechanism of his power than it is to assume there's another completely undefined mechanism responsible then attributing that to causality manipulation due to the use of the words "Rejecting Phenomena" without the appropriate context that would make clearly causality manipulation.

While this works to explain simply things like him creating a table out of water, there are instances where he creates & controls constructs;


The ability to generate superhuman force, in my mind, is the strangest application of Lion's Heart. Rather than preventing change or interaction, he's causing impossible results from meagre actions;

I can see possible explanations for the first 2 at least that could stem from his ability to selectively ignore physics

• For the first he could just again freeze the waters time in a specific area to give it a defined shape then to raise it make it ignore gravity either till it reached the desired height
• For the second he's causing the already time stopped cub to come apart which he could achieve by selectively choosing small sections of it to unfreeze in time while keeping the rest of it frozen to cause it to split apart

But even if these are 100% wrong and not the case at all it's simply more logical to assume these instances as well as the force thing are the result of his already establish mechanic of being able to ignore physics being applied in some as of yet unexplained way rather than a completely new mechanic that has to do with causality manipulation.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

This looks more like Ren Fuji Time Armor. Which is localized time stop that prevents any kind of changes.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with the removal, though this is an interesting case given his ability.

 

[Zabazab]

Tyki doesn't work as a good example here. Tyki is pretty explicit. As the Noah of Pleasure, Tyki can "choose" anything within this world. This comparison doesn't work much.

Ok I am really curious, how is this different? They both decide if something can interfere with them, the only different is for Tyki things pass through him and for Regular Corny Ass they bounce off him/explode into nothing.

“How about toning it down and taking a moment to realize? To realize the discrepancy. To realize that between you and me there is a clear discrepancy in power. And you can disregard the matter of how good your compatibility against me may hypothetically be, because that is beside the issue here.

There’s nobody out there who can defeat me or wound me. Nobody can effect me. You can go ahead and absorb a Witch Factor, and then go ahead and bring the Dragon and Sword Saint along with you, it’s still not going to work.”

His was an Authority that allowed the time of his body to be cut off from the world, and not be interfered with again.

 

[Robo432343]

agree with changing it to causality manip FRA

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i think Regulus's profile should be deleted (hater ong)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The notion of Regulus having Acausality comes from the following scans, specifically the scans to do with Laws/Rules:



All I see here is self time stop granting invulnerability and a resistance to physics manipulation

In the one scan [the second] in which regulus brings up his freedom from every possible law and actually exposit on this freedom in any degree of clarity, beyond just the vaguest notion, all of what he specifically goes about mentioning is in relation to Physical laws aka Gravity, Air Resistance and Conservation of Momentum but non of this inherently has to do with him being in a state of irregular from causality or him being free from causality as a whole.

He doesn't experience change as an obviously side effect of his body being time locked, literally anything in a time stop obviously won't experience change. I don't see how this has an bearing on Acausality besides the mention of the word "Change" but to the best of my knowledge the Wiki doesn't treat every time stopped object as Acausal despite the fact that they inherently won't experience change.

The most glaring and obvious point against the notion of Regulus having Acausality Type 4 is the simple fact that he literally has direct showing of not having any of the inherent resistance that Acausality Type 4 would grant

• He's blatantly not immune to causality manipulation in any way as it is literally on Pandora's profile that she uses causality manipulation on him with 0 issues and specifically explains it all being a natural result of his actions vanishing
• He's blatantly not immune to precognition in any way as it is literally on Regulus' own profile in the standard equipment section that he carries around a book which vaguely tells his own future

The only way to reconcile these clear contradictions to the notion of him having Acausality is to posit that both Pandora's causality manipulation and the Book's Precognition are themselves able to affect irregular systems of causality simply by virtue of them affecting regulus despite neither her/nor anyone else bringing any attention to Regulus' unique state of existence as being something that would otherwise prevent any other causality manipulation/precog from working on him and the fact that Pandora's ability in particular is stated to basically have been the result of her changing the world and the world affirming her word so she's affecting him by altering the causality of the world which obviously wouldn't work if his supposed Acausality put him in a state of irregular causality separate from that of the worlds conventional system of causality.

It would be an extremely generous interpretation of events to assume that both Pandora's ability and the Books precog are simply able to affect irregular causality with little to no actual evidence in way of this being pointed out or mentioned at any point.

I think the qualifications for Acausality Type 4 (especially anything to do with statements of being exempt from laws/rules) are way too lax and generous as they are which leads to too many assumptions.

If we are given a statement that X character is exempt from rules/laws (the nature of this exclusion isn't explained in any sense of detail nor is causality specifically mentioned amongst those laws) -> The character is then assumed by the wiki to have an relevantly irregular relationship to causality and thus they are subsequently assumed to have immunity to Precog/Fate/Causality hax -> Any abilities of this kind which affect them are then assumed to have Acausality bypassing properties

These are extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence but often such cases only just have one or more unexplored statement of being exempt from laws/rules.

Agree: @CurrySenpai, @Rutæhh, @Spectra_Schiffer, @YueNoMoral, @Dark_Soul20189, @EL_xWatcher1234x, @CodeCCLL , @LordGriffin1000 , @Rakih_Elyan
Disagree: @Phoenks, @Zabazab, @SatellaTheWoE, @TheHeavenlySword, @VortechsTG
Neutral:

Only Griffin is in bold. The others are not vsbattle staff.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ok I am really curious, how is this different? They both decide if something can interfere with them, the only different is for Tyki things pass through him and for Regular Corny Ass they bounce off him/explode into nothing.

Does this include past instances? It seems like he's protected (you could just write invulnerability but is he unaffected by Precognition, Fate Manipulation and such (those are the powers listed as evidence). Also you make it seem like I have detailed knowledge on the two to know the differences of both.

 

[Zabazab]

Does this include past instances? It seems like he's protected (you could just write invulnerability but is he unaffected by Precognition, Fate Manipulation and such (those are the powers listed as evidence). Also you make it seem like I have detailed knowledge on the two to know the differences of both.

I really don't understand what you mean, did you make a mistake in your post?

 

[Bastolan27]

I agree with my Re:Zero homies FRA.

 

[LordGinSama]

Ok I am really curious, how is this different? They both decide if something can interfere with them, the only different is for Tyki things pass through him and for Regular Corny Ass they bounce off him/explode into nothing.

Ask @Deceived3596

 

[Worthless]

I don't get what else there is to say about an ability that's stated quite a few times to cut its user from the world and allows them to not experience changes physically and spiritually, which is essentially how some acausality works. Using someone whose powers we don't even have full details on how they operate is quite foolish, and using a book that emphasizes prediction over actually seeing the future is also foolish. And, I agree with Phoenix too. I once asked CP in old forum on why it's being fully treated as causality here when it's likely more complex than that.

 

[Zabazab]

I did think that specifically —how Acausality is treated on-site— would mean Regulus couldn't qualify, but I do find the arguments that Pandora's vague reality warping (which, depending on the translation, doesn't even say Regulus never having been present is why his damage to the forest vanished) isn't detailed enough to say it's an antifeat, and that his Gospel's vague subject-to-change predictions which say things like "A potential bride can be found in the City of Priestella" also isn't an antifeat, to be appealing arguments.

Regulus really is an interesting character.

 

[LordGinSama]

Regulus really is an interesting character.

Laughs in Reid

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I don't get what else there is to say about an ability that's stated quite a few times to cut its user from the world and allows them to not experience changes physically and spiritually, which is essentially how some acausality works.

Time stop and invulnerability can produce the same effect. Unless his ability protect him from cause and effect he is not acausual.

Using someone whose powers we don't even have full details on how they operate is quite foolish, and using a book that emphasizes prediction over actually seeing the future is also foolish.

I agree, If the book can only predict what's going to happen instead of showing the actual future that's not useful.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Regulus really is an interesting character

His power you mean, the character itself is... Meh.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I don't get what else there is to say about an ability that's stated quite a few times to cut its user from the world and allows them to not experience changes physically and spiritually, which is essentially how some acausality works.

I already pointed out how there's clear contradictions including abilities like causality manip and precognition working on him which would inherently not be possible if he had acausality

Anything that's stopped in time would inherently be immune to change both physically and spiritually which are both in no way qualifications for acausality. Madara's Limbo clones are immune to change by virtue of existing in a different dimension but that doesn't mean they are Acausal

Using someone whose powers we don't even have full details on how they operate is quite foolish, and using a book that emphasizes prediction over actually seeing the future is also foolish. And, I agree with Phoenix too. I once asked CP in old forum on why it's being fully treated as causality here when it's likely more complex than that.

Again that arguement is completely and utterly bunk,

Whether or not the main source of the powers aren't explained is irrelevant when the application of it which worked on Regulus is explicitly and without even a shadow of a doubt Causality Manipulation. Stop treading ion ground that's already been walked on

A concept user or reality warper can be capable of using these abilities to do various things ranging from transmutation to causality manipulation. Despite the reality warper/Concept user being able to affect an acausal being with many of the other applications of their powers if they use said power in a way which constitutes causality manipulation an acausal being would be immune to that specific application of it.

Character all across the wiki have causality manipulation as a derivative of a different broader ability like Misogi Kumagawa's causality manipulation which is a derivative application of his subjective reality or Wei Shi Lindons causality manipulation which is a derivative application of his concept manipulation and while both the subjective reality and concept manipulation abilities would affect an acausal being the specific application of those abilities which constitute causality manipulation specifically won't.

If the wiki operated under the logic that Acausality didn't immunized you from a specific means of causality manipulation if they were derived from a different ability then guys like Kratos who's verse doesn't have info or data hax would automatically have his acausality bypassed by any form of causality manipulation as long as it is a subset of those abilities which clearly isn't how that is treated by the wiki

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I really don't understand what you mean, did you make a mistake in your post?

I'm asking does he have feats of negating time based abilities, precognition or fate manipulation? I know he's cut off from the world and such but I'd like to know how far does it extend, because if the abilities above work on him, he'd be bound by abilities that a type 4 Acasualty wouldn't be affected by. Now I'm not saying it's a dead on requirement, but when other abilities can give him the illusion of having acausality it's best to cover what does and doesn't work on him.

 

[Zabazab]

I'm asking does he have feats of negating time based abilities, precognition or fate manipulation?

He's confirmed as immune to time magic, such as Minya which freezes and destroys the time of a target, as well as general Yin Magic which deals with space-time. His Authority also works on Reinhard who resists the afformentioned time abilities.

I think the only precog that's been used on him was analytical precog, which wouldn't be a feat.

The only fate manip in the verse has to do with "The Observers", beings that exist in "the heavens" and look down upon the world as nothing but a miniature garden or game-board. They provide certain people with precognitive commands or can protect their fate such that walking through a battlefield unharmed becomes possible, and they are stated to be omnipresent and manipulate every event at will.

This is significant because Reinhard is stated to be under an Observer's (Od Lagna's) protection and it won't let him die, but even Reinhard would be forced to withdraw from a battle with Regulus if he didn't have Subaru to discover his weakness.

The caveat is that the story is only half-way done so far, and the Observers and their nature will likely be elaborated on more in the future, which is why I try to avoid using them to debate.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think the only precog that's been used on him was analytical precog, which wouldn't be a feat.

There's literally no evidence it's analytical prediction which as I already mentioned would require it to be analyzing info from the surroundings etc to determine the future which no one has provided a scan of after I pointed this out a page ago

That's not analytical prediction, analytical prediction would be indicated if these predicted events were the result of some analysis of information in the present or past. Whether or not the future is deterministic or probabilistic[Indeterministic] is irrelevant to the point and does not indicate the book is using analytical prediction

The only fate manip in the verse has to do with "The Observers", beings that exist in "the heavens" and look down upon the world as nothing but a miniature garden or game-board. They provide certain people with precognitive commands or can protect their fate such that walking through a battlefield unharmed becomes possible, and they are stated to be omnipresent and manipulate every event at will.

This is significant because Reinhard is stated to be under an Observer's (Od Lagna's) protection and it won't let him die, but even Reinhard would be forced to withdraw from a battle with Regulus if he didn't have Subaru to discover his weakness.


The caveat is that the story is only half-way done so far, and the Observers and their nature will likely be elaborated on more in the future, which is why I try to avoid using them to debate.

There's a difference between not letting him die and letting him steamroll a victory with literally no method available to him at the moment through an instantaneous alteration to fate. To the best of my knowledge Regulus can't even full on kill reinhardt to begin with because he'd get resurrected by his blessing received from Od Logna so "Not letting him die" is already fulfilled by that simple fact that Od Logna is going to keep granting him a chain of resurrection blessings like Blessing of the Pheonix and Blessing of the Pheonix 2 etc. every time he dies.

Od Logan's protection is literally it granting him blessings over and over again and it is literally on his profile that the context to Od Logan/the world not letting him die is that he will keep getting resurrection blessings from it

Immortality (Types 4 and 8. Can't die[12] as long as the world holds the voice of someone seeking help, as Od Laguna won't let him die.[13]

Don't leave out context to try portraying the protection of Od Logna (the world) not letting him die as something to do with fate being altered to prevent his death all together rather than him being granted a power that will resurrect him over and over again if he were to die.

 

[Zabazab]

There's literally no evidence it's analytical prediction which as I already mentioned would require it to be analyzing info from the surroundings etc to determine the future which no one has provided a scan of after I pointed this out a page ago

I see you assumed I was talking about the Gospels, but I wasn't. I was talking about Reinhard failing to predict Regulus' initial sigh-attack.

If you do want statements about the Gospel's prophecies though, here you go:

Roswaal: “The Gospels in the Witch Cultists’ possession are mediums of the Witch’s will, and describe the path leading to their owners’ desired future. Weell, aside from vague directions, they are rather labor-intensive to follow as far as prophetic books go.”

Subaru: “――! You know?”

Roswaal: “There is no need to be toooo surprised. There are Witch Cultists here as well, considering this is a facility belonging to a Witch different from the Witch they worship. Being the manager of the Sanctuary, it wasn’t just once or twice that I’ve had to exchange blows with the liikes of them.”

Subaru: “Th―then, they can really see the future…?”

If they could see the future without dying, that would be an ability far more powerful than Subaru’s Return by Death. It was not that he was jealous of such an ability, but if all the members of the Witch Cult were equipped with this overpowered item, that would be nothing to scoff at. But, seeing Subaru’s shudder, Roswaal shook his head,

Roswaal: “It’s not that convenient of an item. First of all, the number of entries themselves vary from cultist to cultist. The contents are vague and subject to interpretation. More importantly, no one except the owner of the Gospel can read it. To anyone else, its contents will only appear to be indecipherable nonsense. And so, they are only incomplete maps of the future.”

Subaru: “Incomplete…”

Subaru couldn’t hide his relief to hear this. But then again, if the Gospels were truly prophetic books with the power to describe the future, Subaru would never have been able to win against Petelgeuse. In that sense, it’s obvious that even the Sin Archbishops’ Gospels couldn’t have reached that level.

Roswaal: “I am doing nooo such thing. Although what Beatrice has is a Gospel, it is of a different origin from the Witch Cultists’. For the Witch Cultists’ Gospels are imperfect, whereas the one belonging to Beatrice is perfect.”

Subaru: “Perfect…?”

Roswaal: “Yes, it is perfect. Unlike the defective items that fluctuate between uncertain futures, wavering in their recorded contents.”

There's a difference between not letting him die and letting him steamroll a victory with literally no method available to him at the moment through an instantaneous alteration to fate. To the best of my knowledge Regulus can't even full on kill reinhardt to begin with because he'd get resurrected by his blessing received from Od Logna so "Not letting him die" is already fulfilled by that simple fact that Od Logna is going to keep granting him a chain of resurrection blessings like Blessing of the Pheonix and Blessing of the Pheonix 2 etc. every time he dies.

Od Logan's protection is literally it granting him blessings over and over again and it is literally on his profile that the context to Od Logan/the world not letting him die is that he will keep getting resurrection blessings from it
Don't leave out context to try portraying the protection of Od Logna (the world) not letting him die as something to do with fate being altered to prevent his death all together rather than him being granted a power that will resurrect him over and over again if he were to die.

The Od Lagna is an Observer and the Observers can and do manipulate Fate to protect those they favour. That's what I pointed out, and I even added a caveat that their nature isn't fully explained yet.

Reinhard is granted various ways to prevent his death– Blessings are of course the most obvious, and the Blessing of the Phoenix is the most obvious among those. Though he is also granted Blessings to counter things that may overcome his Blessings of the Phoenix. Limiting it to "it just gives him resurrection" wouldn't be accurate.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I see you assumed I was talking about the Gospels, but I wasn't. I was talking about Reinhard failing to predict Regulus' initial sigh-attack.

If you do want statements about the Gospel's prophecies though, here you go:

Non of this has anything to do with the gospel being analytical prediction as I've already pointed out whether the incomplete gospel treats the future as is 100% deterministic [In the sense that it knows the 1 fixed future in which all events are already railroaded into] or probabilistic [Where there are multiple vague possible futures that could happen which are all uncertain and determined by probability] non of the statements presented have anything to do with analytical prediction because they don't have anything to do with analyzing information in the past or future to determine the future

The Od Lagna is an Observer and the Observers can and do manipulate Fate to protect those they favour. That's what I pointed out, and I even added a caveat that their nature isn't fully explained yet.

The entire section of you answering Griffins question about Fate Manipulation can reasonably be interpreted as you outright lying by omission

He asks you if Regulus has any feats of negating Fate manipulation and you conflate Od Logana's nature as an observer alongside the supposed Fate Manipulation involved with that to it's statement of not allowing Reinhard to die despite the fact that the statement is explicitly about the fact that Od Logna will grant Reinhard the Blessing of the Phoenix which will resurrect him and then granting him the "Blessing of the Phoenix - Continued" after than then continued again and again and again... endlessly

In everything you said you never once mention the blessing of the Phoenix as being the reason for the statement of "The world won't let him die" which is a very blatant omission of a piece of crucial context for the purpose of presenting griffin with a completely false narrative that he would be otherwise unable to reasonably dispute due to his lack on knowledge of the verse

You literally first give the supposed nature of od logna as an observer being related to it having fate manipulation then says

This is significant because Reinhard is stated to be under an Observer's (Od Lagna's) protection and it won't let him die, but even Reinhard would be forced to withdraw from a battle with Regulus if he didn't have Subaru to discover his weakness.

The obvious implication of this is that Od Logna's fate manipulation is significant to how it protects Reinhard by preventing him from dying despite the fact that this is completely not the case at all and the specific mechanic by which it prevents him from dying is expressly related to it granting him a continuous chain of resurrection blessings.

Even ignoring that there's a difference between preventing him from dying by way of granting him resurrection and granting him an instantaneous victory by way manipulating Fate which would be relevant to the situation of Reinhard having to withdraw from fighting regulus because that's the only context in which withdrawing from fighting regulus would be a feat of regulus negating fate manipulation

Reinhard is granted various ways to prevent his death– Blessings are of course the most obvious, and the Blessing of the Phoenix is the most obvious among those. Though he is also granted Blessings to counter things that may overcome his Blessings of the Phoenix. Limiting it to "it just gives him resurrection" wouldn't be accurate.

That's literally just more blessing's being granted and nothing to do with fate manipulation... Od Logan is just granting him blessings that he desires which it can obviously do by way of it being the literal source of all blessing to begin with that has feats of already granting Reinhard new blessings [The Whole blessing of the pheonix continued situation]. Non of this requires fate manipulation nor is the fate manipulation of Od Logna relevant to this circumstance since it's just using it's power bestowal to grant Reinhard new powers based on his desire.

You literally say blessing are the most obvious way while providing no other method except for being granted blessings

 

[Zabazab]

Non of this has anything to do with the gospel being analytical prediction as I've already pointed out whether the incomplete gospel treats the future as is 100% deterministic [In the sense that it knows the 1 fixed future in which all events are already railroaded into] or probabilistic [Where there are multiple vague possible futures that could happen which are all uncertain and determined by probability] non of the statements presented have anything to do with analytical prediction because they don't have anything to do with analyzing information in the past or future to determine the future

I didn't call it analytical prediction.

The entire section of you answering Griffins question about Fate Manipulation can reasonably be interpreted as you outright lying by omission

I think you're having quite the overeaction, I stated that Reinhard is under the Od Lagna's protection, that the Od Lagna is an Observer, and that the Observers have been shown to utilize fate manipulation to protect those they use/consider important. I even added the caveat that their nature will likely be more explored in the latter half of the story. Reinhard is loved by the Od Lagna and it won't let him die, it's a reasonable suggestion.

Of course you can just argue that Od Lagna protecting Reinhard with the full extent of it's abilities is unconfirmed (though it is confirmed that he would defeat it if they fought lol), but don't call me a liar.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Snip

You are misunderstanding the context behind Zab's words and then misconstruing it. I dont like to throw accusations around because they can just straight up be misunderstandings (as is the case here) and i would appreciate if you do the same and keep the discussion civil instead of accusatory.

1. When Zab talk about anal precog he was talking about Reinhard having analytical prediction and still being unable to predict Reg's breath attack

I think the only precog that's been used on him was analytical precog, which wouldn't be a feat.

2. The relation he is making with the fate manipulation is how the observers EXPLICITLY have fate manipulation statements, Od Laguna is also an observer and very likely also has Fate Manipulation. Yet, Reinhard is stonewalled against Regulus.

Another thing which i would like to add is how Reinhard's Godly instincts, which can tell him the "right answer" in any given situation
Ranging from being able to dodge attacks he doesn't sense to not kiling a zombie army because of feeling like there will be bad consequences (without any given prior knowledge) to being able to give an exam of any difficulty and still being able to score a perfect 100 even if the test is non mcq
But his instincts still could not tell him about Reg's weakness

The only fate manip in the verse has to do with "The Observers", beings that exist in "the heavens" and look down upon the world as nothing but a miniature garden or game-board. They provide certain people with precognitive commands or can protect their fate such that walking through a battlefield unharmed becomes possible, and they are stated to be omnipresent and manipulate every event at will.

This is significant because Reinhard is stated to be under an Observer's (Od Lagna's) protection and it won't let him die, but even Reinhard would be forced to withdraw from a battle with Regulus if he didn't have Subaru to discover his weakness.

The caveat is that the story is only half-way done so far, and the Observers and their nature will likely be elaborated on more in the future, which is why I try to avoid using them to debate.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I didn't call it analytical prediction.

You said word for word that the only precognition used on him was analytical Prediction which would inherently mean that you consider the book analytical prediction

I think the only precog that's been used on him was analytical precog, which wouldn't be a feat

If that wasn't what you meant then what was the point of anything you said/posted at all after I mentioned the book... Like if you didn't mean to call it analytical prediction then all the scans you posted after I mentioned the book was irrelevant.

I think you're having quite the overeaction, I stated that Reinhard is under the Od Lagna's protection, that the Od Lagna is an Observer, and that the Observers have been shown to utilize fate manipulation to protect those they use/consider important. I even added the caveat that their nature will likely be more explored in the latter half of the story. Reinhard is loved by the Od Lagna and it won't let him die, it's a reasonable suggestion.

Of course you can just argue that Od Lagna protecting Reinhard with the full extent of it's abilities is unconfirmed (though it is confirmed that he would defeat it if they fought lol), but don't call me a liar.

No I think my concern is warranted, the statement of how Od Logna prevents him from dying is very explicit and am omission of the context under which it was presented is suspect. You didn't say that Od Logna protecting him with fate manipulation alongside some actual showing of that or that this supposed fate manipulation was simply a possible component of how it prevents Reinhard from dying you said that it is significant to the fact that Od Logna prevents Reinhard from dying without a single mention of the actual context in which that statement was made or how it was specifically talking about the Blessing of the Pheonix continuing over and over again.

This claim of a supposed dubious degree of passive fate manipulation is made in of itself completely irrelevant because we have 0 context for how or when that's actively influencing situations to do with Reinhard and even if we just assumed that it's the case what's to say that Reinhard literally beating Regulus in canon wasn't a result of that fate manipulation thus proving that Regulus has 0 resistance to it even further. Fate manipulation varies in it's potency and portrayal ranging from stuff like Yhwacks almighty which instill changes to the future that are instantly represented in the present reality similar to outright reality warping to more subtle uses in which just have characters experience overall more favorable circumstances or simply come to be in the most favorable situations so what's to say that Reinhard pulling up to beat regulus after his weakness is revealed isn't a product of this supposed fate manipulation thus proving he has 0 resistance to fate manipulation.

The way in which you conflated a statement specifically talking about a specific completely unrelated thing with this fate manipulation is on the surface blatantly deceptive especially since you didn't at any point call to the actual context of that statement nor did you say something like "Od logna won't let reinhard die by continuously reviving him with the blessing of the pheonix but there could be a component of fate manipulation involved" instead you just put the back end of that entire statement within your point to call to a supposed fate manipulation

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

You are misunderstanding the context behind Zab's words and then misconstruing it. I dont like to throw accusations around because they can just straight up be misunderstandings (as is the case here) and i would appreciate if you do the same and keep the discussion civil instead of accusatory.

1. When Zab talk about anal precog he was talking about Reinhard having analytical prediction and still being unable to predict Reg's breath attack

He said word for word that the only precog used on Regulus is analytical prediction put that in the context of this thread and that obviously implies the book is itself analytical prediction and if he's not talking about the book nor trying to imply it's analytical prediction then the statements relating to the book which he posted after I called attention to the book would have literally 0 purpose and he wouldn't have posted them. You yourself post this and it's clear as day what is implied

I think the only precog that's been used on him was analytical precog, which wouldn't be a feat

2. The relation he is making with the fate manipulation is how the observers EXPLICITLY have fate manipulation statements, Od Laguna is also an observer and very likely also has Fate Manipulation. Yet, Reinhard is stonewalled against Regulus.

Another thing which i would like to add is how Reinhard's Godly instincts, which can tell him the "right answer" in any given situation
Ranging from being able to dodge attacks he doesn't sense to not kiling a zombie army because of feeling like there will be bad consequences (without any given prior knowledge) to being able to give an exam of any difficulty and still being able to score a perfect 100 even if the test is non mcq

He conflated a statement which is related to a very specific thing Od Logna does to a general idea of Od Logna having fate manipulation in a way clearly intended to point to that as the source of the ability which would be fine if he actually tried to present this with the added context of how that statement was specifically talking about the fact that Od Logna will keep granting him the blessing of the Phoenix continued but instead he made 0 calls to the actual context of that statement in a way that the clearly uninformed person he's answering would be completely unable to come to a fully realized conclusion with the relevant information presented.

He talks about the fate manipulation observers have and mentions Od Logna as an observer -> Says that Od Logna won't let reinhard die and how that fate manipulation is significant to that [completely cutting out the context of how the way in which Od Logna prevents him from dying in the very statement given has nothing to do with fate manipulation and is instead specifically based off repeated resurrection power bestowal] -> Suggests that Reinhard having to withdraw from fighting regulus until Regulus' weakness was exposed is potentially a feat of Regulus being unaffected by that supposed fate manipulation inherent to him not dying while completely ignoring the actual context in which that statement was given.

"Godly instincts" as you've decided to call it is treated as analytical prediction and is itself specifically called intuition so there shouldn't be any equating it to direct divination and it would inherently be a NLF to assume it can answer literally everything possible in existence when Reinhard isn't portrayed as instantly having in-depth knowledge on everyone he meets or everything he see's

Edit: On looking back at this there's literally no point of you even mentioning the "Godly instincts" at the end in the first place since you say:

When Zab talk about anal precog he was talking about Reinhard having analytical prediction and still being unable to predict Reg's breath attack

So this already means you believe Reinhards abilities are analytical prediction so why would you bring them when the only thing that matters in this discussion of Acausality is Divination based precog.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

"Godly instincts" as you've decided to call it is treated as analytical prediction and is itself specifically called intuition

i am sorry when has it ever been treated as Analytical Prediction? Anal precog doesn't let you answer non mcq type questions or know that killing a specific army is bad for the world

so there shouldn't be any equating it to direct divination and it would inherently be a NLF to assume it can answer literally everything possible in existence when Reinhard isn't portrayed as instantly having in-depth knowledge on everyone he meets or everything he see's

Actually his POV is spoilorous and its heavily implied he knows a **** ton more than he lets on, so you are wrong on that

Edit: On looking back at this there's literally no point of you even mentioning the "Godly instincts" at the end in the first place since you say:

So this already means you believe Reinhards abilities are analytical prediction so why would you bring them when the only thing that matters in this discussion of Acausality is Divination based precog.

His analytical prediction are from his skills as a warrior, his GT is an entirely different ability

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

i am sorry when has it ever been treated as Analytical Prediction? Anal precog doesn't let you answer non mcq type questions or know that killing a specific army is bad for the world

On the profile he only has analytical prediction and has no divination based precognition listed at all so it alongside everything else is clearly treated as analytical prediction but in addition to that simply gaining information in such a way is at best information analysis as it is in no way inherently divination - Reinhard isn't looking into the future to get those answers, he's not viewing possible futures to attain those answers, he's not seeing visions of a future where the answers are already layed out or where someone has completed the test and the answers are revealed- He's not doing anything that would qualify as divination based precognition which require obtaining said information by directly looking into the future and as far as I'm aware there exists 0 statements of such a thing happening.

So to answer your question it has always been treated as analytical prediction or at least one of the components of his information analysis seeing as how nothing besides analytical prediction is listed on his page.

Actually his POV is spoilorous and its heavily implied he knows a **** ton more than he lets on, so you are wrong on that

Implying that he knows more than he lets on in some nebulous way that you are not elaborating on is completely different from him instantly grasping any and all information about everything he sees and him looking into the future itself + as I already pointed out about without him doing this by literally looking into the future it's nothing more than information analysis rather than a divination based precognition.

His analytical prediction are from his skills as a warrior, his GT is an entirely different ability

Nothing of the like is listed on his profile as a distinguished ability and he has no divination based precognition on that profile but either way I already pointed out that it's information analysis as he's not getting visions of the future to obtain that information nor looking into the future to get the information which obviously won't constitute divination based precognition

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Snip

Listing an ability as info analysis or anal precog when it has nothing to do with either is mighty assumptious of you, it literally just tells him the right answer and I am pretty sure nobody has listed it anywhere because it doesnt come under any category

Its in his intelligence section but it is not taking in info thru analysis or doing an analytical prediction

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

i am sorry when has it ever been treated as Analytical Prediction? Anal precog doesn't let you answer non mcq type questions or know that killing a specific army is bad for the world

Listing an ability as info analysis or anal precog when it has nothing to do with either is mighty assumptious of you, it literally just tells him the right answer and I am pretty sure nobody has listed it anywhere because it doesnt come under any category

Its in his intelligence section but it is not taking in info thru analysis or doing an analytical prediction

His GT look more like a supernatural luck than intelligence.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

His GT look more like a supernatural luck than intelligence.

supernatural luck would be if he did all the mcqs correctly, he can write the correct answers to a non mcq test. its not that he picks the right answer, he knows the right answer

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Listing an ability as info analysis or anal precog when it has nothing to do with either is mighty assumptious of you, it literally just tells him the right answer and I am pretty sure nobody has listed it anywhere because it doesnt come under any category

Its in his intelligence section but it is not taking in info thru analysis or doing an analytical prediction

The ability does not allow him to see into the future which is what is necessary to be classified as divination based precognition - At no point does it say he looked into the future to see the answers, looked into possible futures or gained some vision of a future where the answers were written which he just copied - gaining information through an "Intuition" which has nothing to do with looking into the future is best classified as information analysis and information analysis is often a component of analytical prediction because that form of precog uses information a person gathers or has to predict the future.

It's 100x more of a mighty assumption to think he's looking directly into the future (which is necessary to list the ability as divination) when it has nothing to do with directly looking into the future. It's a mighty assumption of anyone to make this claim when there's absolutely 0 statements about him looking directly into the future to gain information.

If you don't think it should be listed as anything then you're wasting my time and your time because then it's irrelevant to this discussion. The only way it is relevant is if you're claiming it to be divination based precognition, if it isn't (whether because you think it shouldn't be listed as anything or if I consider it information analysis) then it's completely irrelevant to bring up and you're wasting my time by rambling about it.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

bmp