Re:Creators CRT #2

[RM97]

Following the previous update #1, it is now time for another update to this verse. I would like to thank all the participating onsite and offsite members (Dereck03, Alonik, GreatIskander, Breakdown, Executor_N0, Birgi, and others) who have helped in creating and reviewing this CRT. I am linking this blog here because all evidence, scans, and sources are explained and elaborated fully.

Information​

Spoiler: Information

Information and Data are the most fundamental aspects of the entirety of creation in verse and how everything is formed and described by Information on an Ontological level. Information is devoid of physical form and created from the Imaginative Force. Information is represented by numbers or bits aka 1 & 0. Information defines, describes, and composes literally everything in the verse, including matter, thoughts/ideas, laws/principles, concepts, powers, reality, fiction, space, time, dimensions, and even nothingness/nonexistence/chaos.

Possibilities​

Spoiler: Possibilities

Possibilities are the choices and alternatives for any individual, event, or story in the series. Possibilities are born from “Information” (specifically, passively intertwining information in the Real World that generates infinite new information and which repeats itself endlessly). They are infinite in number for every creator/human in the real world as they are thoughts, ideas, fantasies, etc., of humans. These possibilities condense/manifest into entire storyworlds and events and creations of all kinds (via Collective Belief/Audience Approval), allowing the creators/humans in the Real World to “create” anything and everything as they wish into the storyworlds.

Imaginative Force​

Spoiler: Imaginative Force

Imagination/Power of Imagination/Imaginative Force/Power of Creation/Power of Gods is a primordial logic-surpassing force akin to the Collective Unconscious that existed before creation/predated existence. It is the force that created the Real World and using that power, the real world was able to create all of the story worlds. From Imaginative Force, all concepts, ideas, etc., are derived. The Imaginative Force is only accessed by the collective mind of the people of the Real World. This causes the "Audience Acceptance" or "Audience Approval" phenomenon, resulting in the creation and manipulation of the entire Storyworld Multiverse and its aspects, while this phenomenon also impacts the Real World. The Imaginative Force, as hinted by Meteora, follows “Solipsism”, where only the mind is Real and contains all of reality within it while everything, including reality itself, is an illusion/imagination. It exists beyond the Real World in the “Infinite Abyss/Oblivion” and is responsible for creating and setting up the fate of the worlds and everything in them while generating information and manifesting them.

Restorative Power​

Spoiler: Restorative Power

The Restorative Power is the passive effect of the Laws of the Real World which maintains the “Rationality” of the real world and binds them all under logic, thereby preventing any illogical physics-defying thing/event from occurring to keep the normalcy of the real world. The Restorative Power is responsible for “translating” storyworld inhabitants to look "Real" in the real world instead of pixels, 3D polygons, cartoons, animated, or in any fictional manner. This Restorative Power is also responsible for nullifying the powers of the creations who have arrived in the real world and warping them into regular humans.

Cosmology​

To begin with, the cosmology of the verse comprises two different structures. The Real World or Reality and the Storyworlds/Fiction/Fantasy. These two worlds are outright stated to be "Isekais" or Parallel Worlds/Alternate Worlds, with the Storyworlds being clusters of “Manifested Worlds” existing outside the Real World (and not “Inside” as some fictional 2D world) while being independent of each other with their own Causal Systems. This automatically disqualifies it from the Reality Equalization rule of the wiki, as the rules are not applicable here. These two worlds are separated by a “Wall”, which refers to some form of Barrier or Gap. There is also a pocket dimension created by the Creators to trap Altair, which is called The Birdcage. Beyond all of these, lies the Infinite Abyss/Oblivion which will be explained below in its own section.

Spoiler: Storyworlds

1. A single story is a Manifested World and can be an infinite and eternal world. Each story in the Storyworlds is an entire Universe with its own Space and Time and Causality, and since they’re infinite-sized, it’s Solid Low 2-C.
2. A single story can contain multiple/different Space-Times, as evident from Blitz’s story, and thus, a single story could be a 2-C and above structure.
3. The worlds can have different laws and concepts, causal systems, time period settings, mechanics, etc., as per what the creators/humans in the real world have thought up for them.
4. One of the Dimensions created by the Creators is a realm of Nonexistence which is not only infinite in size but also is a Void of Chaos that erases everything, including reason, shadow, form, meaning, etc., making it so that nothing can exist in it. While the creator, Matsubara, created this realm as part of a new Power for Selesia and it was shown in the Birdcage, we can deduce that other creators can also create similar realms of Nonexistence in the Storyworlds.
5. Each story continuously branches off/diverges based on possibilities, and since there are stated to be Infinite Possibilities, this would make each of the stories 2-A.
6. For each story, there are as many of them in the Storyworlds as the number of copies sold and the different versions/adaptations of the story (Such as movies, games, animes, light novels, mangas, etc.).
7. The story worlds follow “Multiverse Theory”, and there are as many stories as there are stars in the Galaxy (even though this may seem like a general statement), and thus, it would make the Storyworlds contain multiple sets of 2-A structures independent from each other.
8. All of these worlds are bound by Fate and Narrative Causality (Plot) enforced by the creators/humans in the real world, and thus, the characters are predestined to follow the course of the story as thought up by the creators along with the infinite possibilities entailed to them. Moreover, they do not even realize/recognize that and thus, are unaware of the fact that they are merely created as fantasy/fiction by someone in the Real World.
9. The storyworlds also contain Higher Dimensional realms. Frank Belknap Long’s (A Cthulu Mythos writer) “Angled Space”, along with its inhabitants, the “Hounds of Tindalos” & “Doels/Space-Eaters”, are present as part of the storyworlds. Angled Space is described as a realm that exists beyond Time and Transcends Space-Time and Dimensions as per the Secret Archive Data from the Anime. I have an entire section of the blog dedicated to explaining it in details, but yes, it fully follows the Crossover Standards for Cthulu Mythos characters in this wiki, making it a one-sided canon where Hounds of Tindalos is canon to Re:Creators. (There is also WoG confirming that the Original Angled Space is used as the basis for the ones in the anime and is made as part of the storyworlds but either take it with a grain of salt or not, your choice). All in all, this would make the “Angled Space” an at least 6D structure and by extension, the Storyworlds an At least Low 1-C structure.
10. So considering the fact that Possibilities present for the Creators can condense/manifest as entire worlds and creators have been able to arbitrarily create lower dimensions as well as higher dimensions, it can be argued that possibilities can also extend up to infinite levels of higher dimensions with the entire storyworlds structure being capable of containing them. In addition, it can also be argued that since the concept of “Angled Space” aka “Higher Dimensions” is formed from possibilities which is a combination of information, therefore a creator can use an extensive combination of information to create even higher dimensions than the existing 6D ones by Frank Belknap Long. Thus making the entire Storyworlds a potentially or possibly transcending hierarchy of at most a High 1-B structure due to being capable of extending higher and accommodating possible higher worlds that could be extended up to Infinity.
    • This argument can be elaborated by the fact that a combination of information is what defines creations as I have explained here in this part of the blog. Since there are outright statements of Dimensional Forms (次元的な形態), Dimensions (次元), Space (空間), Time (時), Space-Time (時空), Infinity (無限), Eternity (永遠に), etc., in the verse which has been used to create different worlds and realms, a combination of these information can outright create a High 1-B structure as per the verse mechanics where an Infinite Dimensional Space (無限次元空間) can be represented by the above information combination.
    • Moreover, as discussed in the blog, a creation can be defined due to detailing with sufficient information. Such as the Angled Space of the Hounds for example. Thus, with sufficient information combination and description, even a High 1-B structure can be created.

Spoiler: Real World

1. The Real World is the first World that came into Existence, and it is the “Source” or “Origin” of all the story worlds.
2. The Real World is where the creators or humans live and are responsible for creating the stories.
3. In the Real World, “Media” is the medium that defines and describes all the storyworlds and this media consists of things like Mangas, Animes, Video Games, Light Novels, Movies, Websites, and so on.
4. The Real World is a Structure which is extremely information-dense and leads to the birth of infinite possibilities for the Creators, which results in the creation of worlds. Additionally, even a trivial piece of information in the real world is so complex that a single number cannot represent it.
5. Due to the fact that infinite possibilities exist for the creators, which are formed from information, it can thus be surmised that an infinite amount of information is also present in the Real World.
6. The information of the Real World constantly intertwines with each other to produce infinite new information, which again leads to the generation of infinite possibilities for the creators.
7. On an Ontological level, compared to the Real World, the entirety of the information of the Storyworlds structure is nothing more than a Painting/Drawing/Sketch. I.E. the Real World has a Reality>Fiction transcendence over the entire Storyworlds structure.
8. As explained in the blog, even the trivial thoughts of humans in the Real World have enough information to manifest as entire storyworlds, which showcases the fact that entire manifested storyworlds, no matter their size, are nothing more than a random thought of humans in the Real World on a fundamental level aka there is a Qualitative Superiority between the Real World and the Storyworlds despite the latter being actual manifested worlds that extend from Low 1-C to potentially High 1-B.
9. Additionally, the Real World is outright stated to be Multi-Layered and Deeper than the Storyworlds, with Several Orders of Magnitude/Incomparable differences between the information in the Storyworlds with that of the Real World. Furthermore, Altair’s plan of destroying all of Creation was rooted in the destruction of the Real World, which will collapse the entire Storyworlds as a side-effect due to the former’s superiority.
10. In addition, Real World was responsible for creating “Angled Space” aka a Higher Dimensional space that emanates Space and Time as an imperfect manifestation of itself. All of this makes the Real World a realm that completely trivializes the entire Storyworlds structure, which makes the Real World a 1-A world.

Spoiler: Birdcage

1. The Birdcage is an Infinite sized “Narrative Space” made to manifest in the gap between the Real World and the Storyworlds.
2. The Birdcage is described as a “fictional city isolated from Reality” and is separated from the Causal System of both the Real World and the Storyworlds. However, it is not literally the size of a “Fictional City” since not only do Meteora’s chants imply that it is an infinite and eternal world, but we also see stars in the sky. In addition, it was created by Meteora who, at that point, had her powers amplified to mess with the laws of the Real World and the laws of the storyworlds.
3. The Birdcage is a crossover between different possible branches of stories culminated as a single “Story” sustained by a Concept.
4. The Birdcage was developed to capture and contain Altair and is actually an "Alternate Dimension" that is broadcasted and controlled as a Live Anime Show backed up by multiple Creators.
5. The Birdcage is strong enough to pin down Altair's range and block her power which she also admits mid-battle.
6. This would make the Birdcage Possibly 1-A for completely capturing and trapping Altair.

Oblivion/Infinite Abyss​

Spoiler: Oblivion

1. The Oblivion is the Primordial Void from where all of Creation emerged with the Real World being the first to come into existence.
2. The Oblivion is where everything will return to when they are destroyed/erased completely.
3. The Oblivion is implied to be the Infinite Abyss which transcends the Real World and where the Imaginative Force resides (Since Imaginative Force is the force which brought forth the existence of the worlds)
4. It is responsible for setting up the fate of all of Creation as well as allowing humans in the Real World to create worlds by generating information that leads to the creation of possibilities and then manifesting them.
5. Using this Imaginative Force, the creators created the entire storyworlds and all their concepts.
6. The Oblivion is devoid of everything since everything destroyed returns back to it and is also implied to be also devoid of information, thus being unbound by it and being completely unrepresentable in numbers.
7. As such, due to predating and transcending all of Creation while being completely devoid of and unbound by information as well as being completely unrepresentable in numbers and containing all of creation as illusion/imagination due to “Solipsism”, The Oblivion/Infinite Abyss and Imaginative Force will be 1-A due to having a Qualitative Superiority over the Real World and Storyworlds.

Tl;Dr

• Storyworlds: At least Low 1-C, potentially/possibly expandable up to High 1-B
• Real World: 1-A
• Birdcage: At least Low 2-C, possibly 1-A
• Oblivion/Infinite Abyss/Imaginative Force: 1-A (1 Layer above Real World)

Counter Arguments and Rebuttals

I know there are some counter-arguments for the R>F stuff shown in the series, so I have already made them and addressed them in the following:

Spoiler: #1

"R>F is not there because the fictional characters could come to the real world as well as the real world people can go to the fictional worlds"

That is not quite true as this is done by the powers involved in the Real World. Fictional characters are not even aware of the existence of the Real World, let alone come to the real world. They don't even know that they are fictional and completely controlled by the people in the real world. Even if they were aware of it and had the means to travel across dimensions/universes, they could not come at all. All instances of fictional characters coming into the Real World are done by either Altair or via something in the Real World, such as Magane's Infinite Deception Power in the Real World manifesting a Hound of Tindalos from Lovecraft's Guide Book.

Spoiler: #2

"R>F is still not there because the fictional characters could exist in the real world as well as the real world people can exist in the fictional worlds"

Again, that is not true as this is also done by the powers involved in the Real World. It is explained specifically by Meteora that the Real World passively translates the fictional characters from having any fictional characteristics into real-world characteristics. That is why they appear as real people instead of appearing as 3D Polygons, 2D Pixels, etc. As for how the real-world people can exist in the fictional worlds, in the only two instances, we find that whenever the Real World people are transported into the Story World, they and their surroundings get warped. This could be due to either Altair's shenanigans or the translative powers of the Real World. Furthermore, even at the end of the series where the fictional characters had to leave the real world and go back to their worlds, they had to pass through a special gate that would warp them back into their fictional selves while sending them into their respective universes. When Onishi tried to go through the gate accidentally, he was unable to and was sent back. This also showcases that Real World people cannot voluntarily go into Fictional Worlds and neither can anyone go into those worlds using any common interdimensional portals. There are no other cases where fictional characters could exist in the real world as well as the real world people can exist in the fictional worlds on their own.

Spoiler: #3

"Altair is also a fictional character, so her moving between the Real World and Storyworlds as well as bringing characters and people between the worlds is a major anti-feat for R>F"

Altair being a "Fictional" character is a common misconception among the masses. While it is true that Altair was a character created by Setsuna, that's just about it. She is a character concept that never materialized as a fictional character in a fictional setting. As I have explained here in great detail, she is simply an idea/concept that does not belong to any universe or story. She herself is the story called "Altair" which is a roundabout way of saying she's an idea/abstraction. The reason why she knows every detail about Setsuna, her relationship with Souta, and her tragic ending is that Altair is formed from the wishes and curses of Setsuna. Hence why Meteora states in the final episode that Altair is an "Alter-Ego" of Setsuna because Altair is the embodiment of the Hopes and Despair of Setsuna and thus knows everything as she has witnessed the world through "Setsuna's eyes and heart". Moreover, Altair is unbound by Causality and exists as an Infinite, Eternal, Infallible, and Immutable existence while her physical body is nothing more than a holographic physical image used to interact with the real world and story worlds. So in short, she's not a "Fictional" character but rather an idea/concept that is formed from the Real World and exists independently of all worlds. This is why she can manifest in both the Real World and the Storyworlds as a physical image and can easily travel between them. As such, this does not create any major anti-feat for R>F.

 

[shinnKazals]

ah finally, as im waiting for this a long times ago, agree.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Interesting...

 

[BoastJr]

Seems fine to me, I know this was in the works for a while and not so surprised to see it pop up right about now. Hope your thread goes smoothly

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Tamasensei123]

Agree

 

[WanderingGecko]

You finally posted it, hard agree for me.

 

[Captainhyperion22]

Agree, I've been reading it on TSW for a long time now.

 

[Georredannea15]

1. The storyworlds also contain Higher Dimensional realms. Frank Belknap Long’s (A Cthulu Mythos writer) “Angled Space”, along with its inhabitants, the “Hounds of Tindalos” & “Doels/Space-Eaters”, are present as part of the storyworlds. Angled Space is described as a realm that exists beyond Time and Transcends Space-Time and Dimensions as per the Secret Archive Data from the Anime. I have an entire section of the blog dedicated to explaining it in details, but yes, it fully follows the Crossover Standards for Cthulu Mythos characters in this wiki, making it a one-sided canon where Hounds of Tindalos is canon to Re:Creators. (There is also WoG confirming that the Original Angled Space is used as the basis for the ones in the anime and is made as part of the storyworlds but either take it with a grain of salt or not, your choice). All in all, this would make the “Angled Space” an at least 6D structure and by extension, the Storyworlds an At least Low 1-C structure.

That's at best 5-D btw,

As for H1-B, yes, the fact that it created infinitely many higher dimensions does not mean that each of these dimensions has a higher axis than the other.

For example, if we consider that infinite 5-Ds were created, technically there would be infinite higher dimensional structures, or higher dimensions. What is important is the relationship between them. So, here "transcending space-time" would be 5-dimensional if it is a quantitative superiority, but for this the necessary contexts must be met.

but if it's qualitative in its context, it's 1-A.

Other than that, it's best to leave R>F to Ultima

1. In the Real World, “Media” is the medium that defines and describes all the storyworlds and this media consists of things like Mangas, Animes, Video Games, Light Novels, Movies, Websites, and so on.

I noticed this section in the R>F section, it looks more like the 4th wall, but as I said, it would be best to wait for Ultima for the R>F part.

I can't say anything about the real world, for the storyworld I would say 5-D at most i guess, if this transcendence is qualitative it would be 1-A

Good luck, buddy.

 

[RM97]

That's at best 5-D btw

6D because Space-Eaters (The Story where Doels come from) name drops 4th, 5th, and 6th Dimensional planes existing in that story as part of Angled Space.

I noticed this section in the R>F section, it looks more like the 4th wall

Not really, since the Fictional Worlds are described and represented in the media of the Real World Universe. The Real World sees them as stories/fantasies. A similar type of example will be Earth Prime in DC having comics that describes the mainstream DC universe stories.

 

[Georredannea15]

6D because Space-Eaters (The Story where Doels come from) name drops 4th, 5th, and 6th Dimensional planes existing in that story as part of Angled Space.

The higher dimensional space does not scale by default. What is fundamentally important is the nature of the dimensions.
In short, there is no problem with higher dimensions, it is the nature of the dimensions that matters

"Suppose they had a shape unknown on Earth? "Suppose they had a shape unknown on Earth? Suppose they were four-dimensional, five-dimensional, six-dimensional? Suppose they were a hundred-dimensional? Suppose they had no dimensions at all and yet existed? What could we do?

Also, what is being done here is an "assumption." There is a questioning and guessing, "what can we do if this happens?" So the expression is not really described, and even if it is, there is no information about the nature of the dimension.

Not really, since the Fictional Worlds are described and represented in the media of the Real World Universe. The Real World sees them as stories/fantasies. A similar type of example will be Earth Prime in DC having comics that describes the mainstream DC universe stories.

It is not good to cite different verses as examples of "whatabouism" because they may have different contexts. DC has too many contexts in itself. So comparing two verses is unlikely, also the feat you mentioned gave DC tier 0.

But as I said, let Ultima handle the R>F issue, that would be the healthiest, right?

 

[RM97]

The higher dimensional space does not scale by default. What is fundamentally important is the nature of the dimensions.
In short, there is no problem with higher dimensions, it is the nature of the dimensions that matters
Also, what is being done here is an "assumption." There is a questioning and guessing, "what can we do if this happens?" So the expression is not really described, and even if it is, there is no information about the nature of the dimension.

I'm pretty sure I have explained Angled Space in my blog already based on what has been shown in the series. But to provide context, Hounds of Tindalos (The story which is evidenced to be a part of the Storyworlds) has explored Angled Space. It's a realm beyond space-time where the latter are emanations or imperfect manifestations of this higher realm and where all of Past-Present-Future exists simultaneously as one since Space-Time is illusionary and nonexistent. So we get a clear nature of the dimensions. Plus it is not an assumption since Chalmers, the protagonist of the story witnesses it. Not to mention, in the last section of the quotes I gave you, this is stated:

I know a mathematician who swears that he once saw the sixth dimension in a wild flight into the sublime skies of the differential calculus.

However, I will say that I had a talk with Ultima offsite about this. He thinks that going simply by Hounds of Tindalos is 4D because Time is the perception of the humans while Angled Space is the Monolith. However, he said that if you add Space Eaters, it will go 6D. But given the extra information given in the anime on the Hounds of Tindalos transcending Space-Time as well as Time and Dimensions and existing in Angled Space, I would like to argue it could hit 5D at least.

It is not good to cite different verses as examples of "whatabouism" because they may have different contexts. DC has too many contexts in itself. So comparing two verses is unlikely, also the feat you mentioned gave DC tier 0.

I didn't mean to bring another verse but its just an example. What I am saying is that different media present in the Real World are the mediums using which the fictional worlds are represented in the Real World. This part of the R>F page explains it better.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Queue, etc etc.

 

[Nekobako]

Bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That blog is ******* huge, so, give me a bit to go through it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That blog is ******* huge, so, give me a bit to go through it.

I bet it's huge!

 

[Floxiaaa]

That's at best 5-D btw,

As for H1-B, yes, the fact that it created infinitely many higher dimensions does not mean that each of these dimensions has a higher axis than the other.

For example, if we consider that infinite 5-Ds were created, technically there would be infinite higher dimensional structures, or higher dimensions. What is important is the relationship between them. So, here "transcending space-time" would be 5-dimensional if it is a quantitative superiority, but for this the necessary contexts must be met.

but if it's qualitative in its context, it's 1-A.

Other than that, it's best to leave R>F to Ultima


I noticed this section in the R>F section, it looks more like the 4th wall, but as I said, it would be best to wait for Ultima for the R>F part.

I can't say anything about the real world, for the storyworld I would say 5-D at most i guess, if this transcendence is qualitative it would be 1-A

Good luck, buddy.

This comment cannot be ignored

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Bump lmao

 

[Midirum]

bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

These two worlds are outright stated to be "Isekais" or Parallel Worlds/Alternate Worlds, with the Storyworlds being clusters of “Manifested Worlds” existing outside the Real World (and not “Inside” as some fictional 2D world) while being independent of each other with their own Causal Systems. This automatically disqualifies it from the Reality Equalization rule of the wiki, as the rules are not applicable here.

I assume this is supposed to be the explanation for why the Storyworlds are not just being considered Tier 11, here? If so, it's not effective whatsoever.

There being a "collision" between the Storyworlds and the Real World is a problem, also. That shouldn't happen if the Storyworlds are literally nothingness in comparison to the Real World. (The fact this description is specifically not just a mistake of words and not just a different term for "Connect" also speaks volumes here)

The "Infinite Abyss" is also excessively vague and I see no suggestion of 1-A whatsoever from it. Your interpretation of these scans itself seems a bit stretched, but even charitably granting that it is correct, nothing suggests that the Abyss is ontologically above the Real World. The mention of "solipsism" and "ontology" is so vague and contextless that I don't even know where to draw the connection between it and the Abyss. I assume it's something to the effect that, Imagination resides in the Abyss, and it creates both the Storyworlds and the Real World, and this is why it should view them both as fiction?

 

[RM97]

I assume this is supposed to be the explanation for why the Storyworlds are not just being considered Tier 11, here? If so, it's not effective whatsoever.

I don't exactly see why it would be tier 11 given the fact that the entire series makes it clear that they are not tier 11 but rather alternate worlds existing outside the worlds (which is something even confirmed by the Author). Even going by the pov of the entire plot, storyworlds not being tier 11 was the whole idea and somehow they were actual worlds existing outside the real world without any causal relationship. Otherwise, the whole thing would have ended in a few episodes if the storyworlds were indeed tier 11.

There being a "collision" between the Storyworlds and the Real World is a problem, also. That shouldn't happen if the Storyworlds are literally nothingness in comparison to the Real World. (The fact this description is specifically not just a mistake of words and not just a different term for "Connect" also speaks volumes here)

The collision is not a literal or a physical collision that happens between the Storyworlds and the Real World. In fact, only storyworlds can collide with each other but ONLY IF Altair were to win and destroy the real world. The Collision that you mentioned (which is also explained in the blog) is basically an event where the Creations or Characters were able to come to the Real World from their respective storyworlds. This happened somehow because of Altair (an entity from the Real World) as well as the laws/mechanics of the Real World.

The "Infinite Abyss" is also excessively vague and I see no suggestion of 1-A whatsoever from it. Your interpretation of these scans itself seems a bit stretched, but even charitably granting that it is correct, nothing suggests that the Abyss is ontologically above the Real World. The mention of "solipsism" and "ontology" is so vague and contextless that I don't even know where to draw the connection between it and the Abyss. I assume it's something to the effect that, Imagination resides in the Abyss, and it creates both the Storyworlds and the Real World, and this is why it should view them both as fiction?

The context behind the mentions of both "solipsism" and "ontology" is that in Episode 1, MC witnesses fictional characters coming into his world and one of the characters says this to explain the phenomenon that he just witnessed. The reason why this was not extrapolated upon more is because right after this, we get an explanation of what storyworlds are and how it relates to the Real World.
As for why Imagination should view them as fiction, Imagination is some form of Collective Unconsciousness/Hivemind of the people of Real World which generates the thoughts and ideas. Meteora's explanation of how stuff works based on Solipcism fits with the idea that "Imagination" or the Collective Mind of the People is real while everything else is not which is why Collective Belief from the People not only changes the Storyworlds, but also can affect the Real World.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I assume this is supposed to be the explanation for why the Storyworlds are not just being considered Tier 11, here? If so, it's not effective whatsoever.

There being a "collision" between the Storyworlds and the Real World is a problem, also. That shouldn't happen if the Storyworlds are literally nothingness in comparison to the Real World. (The fact this description is specifically not just a mistake of words and not just a different term for "Connect" also speaks volumes here)

The "Infinite Abyss" is also excessively vague and I see no suggestion of 1-A whatsoever from it. Your interpretation of these scans itself seems a bit stretched, but even charitably granting that it is correct, nothing suggests that the Abyss is ontologically above the Real World. The mention of "solipsism" and "ontology" is so vague and contextless that I don't even know where to draw the connection between it and the Abyss. I assume it's something to the effect that, Imagination resides in the Abyss, and it creates both the Storyworlds and the Real World, and this is why it should view them both as fiction?

Existence of Lovecraftian entities and Angled Space legitimately contradicts with the first part. But if we want to speak on a better example, Storyworlds do have timelines and such; one example being how Selesia had a Light Novel version that is ahead of the anime part, but she was summoned from the anime part and thus, didn't know of things that happened in her LN version.

Other parts, I won't budge my way in for too much cuz I'm not a very knowledgable member (gotta re-watch Re:Creators one day) Cx

 

[RM97]

Existence of Lovecraftian entities and Angled Space legitimately contradicts with the first part. But if we want to speak on a better example, Storyworlds do have timelines and such; one example being how Selesia had a Light Novel version that is ahead of the anime part, but she was summoned from the anime part and thus, didn't know of things that happened in her LN version.

Its not just limited to that. Storyworlds are visually depicted in the manga to be parallel timelines to the Real World and independent from it without any causal relationship. They are even stated to exist outside the world as Isekais/independent worlds and also stated to function as per Multiverse Theory of branching universes. The Lovecraftian beings/Angled Space stuff only support the fact that the worlds do have Space, Time, and Dimensions. If they were tier 11, the series would have quite literally ended after a few episodes without even going through so much exposition.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

don't exactly see why it would be tier 11 given the fact that the entire series makes it clear that they are not tier 11 but rather alternate worlds existing outside the worlds (which is something even confirmed by the Author). Even going by the pov of the entire plot, storyworlds not being tier 11 was the whole idea and somehow they were actual worlds existing outside the real world without any causal relationship. Otherwise, the whole thing would have ended in a few episodes if the storyworlds were indeed tier 11.

This just implies that the Storyworlds aren't actually being transcended by the Real World. The Real World being 1-A requires them to be ontologically inferior to it, and for them to be the baseline reality of the setting, but the argument you're making just collapses them into being of the same level, so, yeah.

The collision is not a literal or a physical collision that happens between the Storyworlds and the Real World. In fact, only storyworlds can collide with each other but ONLY IF Altair were to win and destroy the real world. The Collision that you mentioned (which is also explained in the blog) is basically an event where the Creations or Characters were able to come to the Real World from their respective storyworlds. This happened somehow because of Altair (an entity from the Real World) as well as the laws/mechanics of the Real World.

What do you make of the collision explicitly not being a mistake of words, then? They go out of their way to note that it isn't just an oblique way to talk about a connection between the two levels.

The context behind the mentions of both "solipsism" and "ontology" is that in Episode 1, MC witnesses fictional characters coming into his world and one of the characters says this to explain the phenomenon that he just witnessed. The reason why this was not extrapolated upon more is because right after this, we get an explanation of what storyworlds are and how it relates to the Real World.

As for why Imagination should view them as fiction, Imagination is some form of Collective Unconsciousness/Hivemind of the people of Real World which generates the thoughts and ideas. Meteora's explanation of how stuff works based on Solipcism fits with the idea that "Imagination" or the Collective Mind of the People is real while everything else is not which is why Collective Belief from the People not only changes the Storyworlds, but also can affect the Real World.

This seems to be just her saying "If you doubt what just happened, you might as well doubt everything else that you experience." She doesn't seem to be making an actual cosmological point, just saying that the MC is thinking incoherently. Seems to not have any relation to the Storyworlds at all, and the fact we get an exposition on them a bit afterwards doesn't make the two statements connected.

 

[RM97]

This just implies that the Storyworlds aren't actually being transcended by the Real World. The Real World being 1-A requires them to be ontologically inferior to it, and for them to be the baseline reality of the setting, but the argument you're making just collapses them into being of the same level, so, yeah.

The Argument I am making is that the baseline reality of the setting is indeed a typical storyworld such as this series here which is canon to the verse. Or even this series whose antagonist appears in the Real World.

However, the Real World does transcend them. The Real World is stated to be more "deep" and "multi-layered" than the story worlds and has a difference of several orders of magnitude between them when it comes to "Information" (something which defines everything on an ontological level in the verse). Furthermore, as per the novel, the above-stated difference between the Real World and Storyworlds is so great that the Storyworld itself is nothing more than a painting on a canvas in the Real World, i.e. an R>F Analogy. All of these comparisons are ofc being made based on "Information" content. This goes hand in hand with how the "Fantasies", "Thoughts" and "Ideas" of the people in the Real World have enough "Information" to manifest as entire Storyworlds. The Storyworlds themselves are stated to have enough "Information" that can create other worlds. However, the "Information" of the Real World is so complex to the point even trivial pieces of information cannot be represented by a single number. Moreover, the "Information" of the real world creates infinite possibilities which manifest as the Storyworlds and this information of Real World constantly produces infinite new "Information" by combining with each other.

For supporting points, we do have the evidence that some storyworlds have different characters (Meteora and Hounds) and technology (Blitz's Dimensional Gate) that can cross into different worlds, and it also includes the Hounds of Tindalos who are stated to transcend Time and Dimensions to chase down the targets. Yet they do not even know about the existence of the Real World or that they are being completely controlled by it, let alone being able to reach it at all.

What do you make of the collision explicitly not being a mistake of words, then? They go out of their way to note that it isn't just an oblique way to talk about a connection between the two levels.

The same character who said that the Collision is not a mistake of words also said that she doesn't know what it means.
As for what I make it out to be, it is simply an event where the Creations were transported into the Real World (all because of Altair ofc). Not much is explained in detail about the collision except that it is how the characters are showing up in the Real World. Now as for how characters from the Storyworlds could exist in the Real World, it is specifically because of the Restorative Powers of the Real World.

This seems to be just her saying "If you doubt what just happened, you might as well doubt everything else that you experience." She doesn't seem to be making an actual cosmological point, just saying that the MC is thinking incoherently. Seems to not have any relation to the Storyworlds at all, and the fact we get an exposition on them a bit afterwards doesn't make the two statements connected.

I think I should explain this better in this way:

• MC witnesses storyworld characters appearing in his world.
• MC gets hold of two of the characters.
• Meteora says this dialogue about "Solipcism" and "Ontology".
• MC and other character couldn't understand what she was saying.
• Meteora then starts talking about The Storyworlds and The Real World.
• She then explains in the same episode how entire Independent Worlds are created from the Fantasies and Thoughts of the People in Real World.
• In Later Episodes she talks about how the Will and Creativity of the People can save the worlds as it is associated with the Imaginative Force.

So what I am trying to say is that the Collective Mind/Collective Unconscious is what's hinted by Meteora to be working on the principle "Solipscism" from the very first episode, where only the Mind/Consiousness is Real and everything is unreal/nonexistent and generated by the mind. This goes hand in hand with how the Infinite Abyss (Where the Imaginative Force is or is part of) is completely devoid of "Information" (which defines and gives attributes to everything in creation including Nonexistent Voids, Space-Time, Dimensions, etc) and how at the end of series, Altair and Setsuna transcended the Real World and merged with the Abyss.

 

[Floxiaaa]

I can say that I am torn between some points. Your and Ultima's comments also left me in the middle. Neutral at the moment but more inclined to agree.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Took a bit longer than expected. Ah well.

The same character who said that the Collision is not a mistake of words also said that she doesn't know what it means.

Yeah, fair enough.

The Argument I am making is that the baseline reality of the setting is indeed a typical storyworld such as this series here which is canon to the verse. Or even this series whose antagonist appears in the Real World.

Yeah, I've seen the Black Lagoon stuff on the blog. Not particularly sold on that line of argumentation, since to my understanding, it basically requires that Black Lagoon (And that other series you mentioned) and Re:Creators to be three parts of a larger shared verse, which in turn is used to argue that the level of the former two is the proper baseline of the setting, which in turn shoots up Re:Creator's normal setting to 1-A. For that, you'd first need to demonstrate that these verses are all canon -to each other-, and not just that they are canon to Re:Creators, and BL, for example, being by the same author doesn't really suffice as evidence of this mutual canonicity.

Furthermore, as per the novel, the above-stated difference between the Real World and Storyworlds is so great that the Storyworld itself is nothing more than a painting on a canvas in the Real World, i.e. an R>F Analogy. All of these comparisons are ofc being made based on "Information" content. This goes hand in hand with how the "Fantasies", "Thoughts" and "Ideas" of the people in the Real World have enough "Information" to manifest as entire Storyworlds. The Storyworlds themselves are stated to have enough "Information" that can create other worlds. However, the "Information" of the Real World is so complex to the point even trivial pieces of information cannot be represented by a single number. Moreover, the "Information" of the real world creates infinite possibilities which manifest as the Storyworlds and this information of Real World constantly produces infinite new "Information" by combining with each other.

The comparison would be pretty interesting normally, but as you said, contextually it's about the "information content" of each world. To my understanding, information is like a substance that equally comprises both the Storyworlds and the Real World; the Real World doesn't transcend the information of the Storyworlds, else there wouldn't even be a comparison between the two in terms of "amount" of information.

So in this case I don't think it's really good evidence for R>F, since the statement is done with reference to a respect in which the two levels of existence are directly commensurate (Information content). It seems to pretty much be talking about how the Real World is much more "detailed" than the Storyworlds, and not much more than this.

Now as for how characters from the Storyworlds could exist in the Real World, it is specifically because of the Restorative Powers of the Real World.

I find this a bit odd. Usually, a R>F gap entails that the lesser world isn't really the fictional medium itself, but something metaphysically separate that's just represented by the medium (e.g. A lower world contained in a manga isn't actually the physical drawings seen in the higher world). Re:Creators seems to actually identify the two by saying that Storyworld characters might be polygons, pixels, 2-dimensional forms (!) and etc, but are "translated" into normal people to fit in the Real World. What's up with that?

So what I am trying to say is that the Collective Mind/Collective Unconscious is what's hinted by Meteora to be working on the principle "Solipscism" from the very first episode

I understand the connection you're trying to make. My point is really that the connection is hardly there.

 

[RM97]

Yeah, I've seen the Black Lagoon stuff on the blog. Not particularly sold on that line of argumentation, since to my understanding, it basically requires that Black Lagoon (And that other series you mentioned) and Re:Creators to be three parts of a larger shared verse, which in turn is used to argue that the level of the former two is the proper baseline of the setting, which in turn shoots up Re:Creator's normal setting to 1-A. For that, you'd first need to demonstrate that these verses are all canon -to each other-, and not just that they are canon to Re:Creators, and BL, for example, being by the same author doesn't really suffice as evidence of this mutual canonicity.

For Black Lagoon's case, I am not saying that it is Canon simply because "It is written by the same Author", but rather the fact that Volume 10 appears in the Real World as a "Story" in Episode 7. This goes hand in hand with the fact that a Story in the Real World is an entire world in the Multiverse. For supporting evidence, "Black Lagoon" is published by the same publisher "Shogakukan" who published both series (Manga, Light Novel, Guides, etc) and published in the magazine "Sunday Gene-X" (Sunday GX). If you want to take the WOG statement with a grain of salt, there is that too but the point is, BL is indeed part of the verse as a whole.

As for "Chikujoin-San is Having Too Much Fun!" manga, it is a spin-off manga released after Re:Creators that focuses on Magane's antics in her own storyworld and takes place before her being transported into the Real World. Her world is part of the series and appears as a story in the Real World. So it is not just some random cameo or reference.

If you are asking if "Black Lagoon" or the "Chikujoin-San" manga interacted with each other, then the answer is "No" for simple reasons. They are entirely different universes of different genres in the multiverse. From our point of view, there would be no point in making a cross-universe interaction between them especially when "Chikujoin-San" is a 15-chapter spinoff manga focused on Magane's antics in her own world, while Black Lagoon is just a regular/normal Action-Crime series. It is also pretty much established in Re:Creators that the storyworlds inhabitants are unaware of them and their world being stories/part of stories. So there is no way "Black Lagoon" characters will know about the Real World or that they are stories. The same is true with characters from the "Chikujoin-San" manga except for Magane since she appeared in the Real World and figured out that her world is just a story. There is also the fact that Real World can make the crossovers between different storyworlds happen as they control the narrative causality such as how Blitz Talker's daughter got resurrected after the creator of Blitz Talker's world literally cross-overed his world with Meteora's own. So these crossovers between storyworlds only happen if the people in the Real World want it to happen.

All in all, they are all canon to each other via their connection to the Real World as stories with "Chikujoin-San" manga being a spinoff of the main series that focuses on Magane's antics in her own storyworld.

The comparison would be pretty interesting normally, but as you said, contextually it's about the "information content" of each world. To my understanding, information is like a substance that equally comprises both the Storyworlds and the Real World; the Real World doesn't transcend the information of the Storyworlds, else there wouldn't even be a comparison between the two in terms of "amount" of information.

So in this case I don't think it's really good evidence for R>F, since the statement is done with reference to a respect in which the two levels of existence are directly commensurate (Information content). It seems to pretty much be talking about how the Real World is much more "detailed" than the Storyworlds, and not much more than this.

The thing is that Information even forms the thoughts and ideas of the people. So going by your argument, the Real World wouldn't even transcend the thoughts and ideas of the people just because those also have information, which wouldn't make any sense.

But to clarify, "Information" isn't a substance or something physical that can be quantified. Information is implied to be the abstract base of everything that defines them. It is the quality or attribute of something. Whether it be laws, ideas, matter, metaphysical, nonexistent voids, or even concepts. The "amount" that you are speaking of that is stated in this R>F statement is an analogy made by Meteora to compare the Information of Real World vs the Information of Storyworlds on a qualitative scale. This is why she (and others) says that the information of the Real World is "Complex", "Deep/Profound", etc all of which are expressions of Quality. Sure, she has stated that information of the Real World is "Multi-Layered" and "Several Orders of Magnitude Amount", which are expressions of Quantity. However, those are just made to give a simplified idea about the "Information" of the Real World when compared to the "Information" of the Storyworld.

Also to point out, being "detailed" or not in the verse can make something exist or not irrespective of the information it has. For example, Sirius is a character who does not have any ego/personality despite the creators making her with sufficient information and this is because the character's personality was not detailed enough in information when compared to Altair. This showcases that despite Sirius's personality being written with information, it not being detailed made Sirius a character with non-existent personality/ego. So even if I go by your argument that how the Real World is much more "detailed" than the Storyworlds, it would only support my above point that the R>F analogy made by Meteora where the Storyworld is fictional/nothing compared to the Real World since the latter is qualitatively greater.

I find this a bit odd. Usually, a R>F gap entails that the lesser world isn't really the fictional medium itself, but something metaphysically separate that's just represented by the medium (e.g. A lower world contained in a manga isn't actually the physical drawings seen in the higher world). Re:Creators seems to actually identify the two by saying that Storyworld characters might be polygons, pixels, 2-dimensional forms (!) and etc, but are "translated" into normal people to fit in the Real World. What's up with that?

That is just how the characters manifest in their own worlds when they are designed in certain ways. For example, Meteora is a video game character and has polygons, pixels, 2-dimensional forms, etc. That might seem normal to her in her world but in the real world, that would be odd. For any character who is from a movie, they would also appear real-like such as when Selesia appeared in the Real World, her writer thought she was from a Movie. This is likely because the Author (in his own words) was inspired by the Last Action Hero which has a similar premise of fictional verses being parallel universes to the Real World and has cartoon characters appearing to look like such in their fictional worlds.

I understand the connection you're trying to make. My point is really that the connection is hardly there.

Then how do you interpret this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For Black Lagoon's case, I am not saying that it is Canon simply because "It is written by the same Author", but rather the fact that Volume 10 appears in the Real World as a "Story" in Episode 7. This goes hand in hand with the fact that a Story in the Real World is an entire world in the Multiverse. For supporting evidence, "Black Lagoon" is published by the same publisher "Shogakukan" who published both series (Manga, Light Novel, Guides, etc) and published in the magazine "Sunday Gene-X" (Sunday GX). If you want to take the WOG statement with a grain of salt, there is that too but the point is, BL is indeed part of the verse as a whole.

None of this proves Re:Creators and Black Lagoon are canon to each other. It just proves Black Lagoon is canon to Re:Creators, at the absolute best. For your argument to succeed, as mentioned previously, you'd first need to establish mutual canonicity, and this isn't sufficient.

As for "Chikujoin-San is Having Too Much Fun!" manga, it is a spin-off manga released after Re:Creators that focuses on Magane's antics in her own storyworld and takes place before her being transported into the Real World. Her world is part of the series and appears as a story in the Real World. So it is not just some random cameo or reference.

This just means that manga's world is not the baseline of the verse. If anything it reaffirms that the baseline is, in fact, just Re:Creators' real world.

The thing is that Information even forms the thoughts and ideas of the people. So going by your argument, the Real World wouldn't even transcend the thoughts and ideas of the people just because those also have information, which wouldn't make any sense.

Yeah, the Real World is made of information, so it wouldn't transcend the information grounding these thoughts and ideas. Same thing with the Storyworlds; even granting the idea that the Real World transcends the Storyworlds, it would seem that the former transcends the actual content of the latter, not necessarily the information making it up.

But to clarify, "Information" isn't a substance or something physical that can be quantified. Information is implied to be the abstract base of everything that defines them. It is the quality or attribute of something. Whether it be laws, ideas, matter, metaphysical, nonexistent voids, or even concepts. The "amount" that you are speaking of that is stated in this R>F statement is an analogy made by Meteora to compare the Information of Real World vs the Information of Storyworlds on a qualitative scale. This is why she (and others) says that the information of the Real World is "Complex", "Deep/Profound", etc all of which are expressions of Quality. Sure, she has stated that information of the Real World is "Multi-Layered" and "Several Orders of Magnitude Amount", which are expressions of Quantity. However, those are just made to give a simplified idea about the "Information" of the Real World when compared to the "Information" of the Storyworld.

I never said information is physical, nor does my point require that it be so. Information can be abstract in its mode of existence and still constitute an "amount," especially when you consider the statements about beings from the Storyworlds existing because there's stories describing them. "More information" in that sense would just mean you're described more.

That is just how the characters manifest in their own worlds when they are designed in certain ways. For example, Meteora is a video game character and has polygons, pixels, 2-dimensional forms, etc. That might seem normal to her in her world but in the real world, that would be odd. For any character who is from a movie, they would also appear real-like such as when Selesia appeared in the Real World, her writer thought she was from a Movie. This is likely because the Author (in his own words) was inspired by the Last Action Hero which has a similar premise of fictional verses being parallel universes to the Real World and has cartoon characters appearing to look like such in their fictional worlds.

I gather as much. I mean that the Storyworlds, in-and-of-themselves, seem to be pixels, 2-D forms, polygons, etc. instead of those things being just the media representing them in the higher world.

Then how do you interpret this?

I don't, really. It's a forced connection in my eyes.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

None of this proves Re:Creators and Black Lagoon are canon to each other. It just proves Black Lagoon is canon to Re:Creators, at the absolute best. For your argument to succeed, as mentioned previously, you'd first need to establish mutual canonicity, and this isn't sufficient.


This just means that manga's world is not the baseline of the verse. If anything it reaffirms that the baseline is, in fact, just Re:Creators' real world.


Yeah, the Real World is made of information, so it wouldn't transcend the information grounding these thoughts and ideas. Same thing with the Storyworlds; even granting the idea that the Real World transcends the Storyworlds, it would seem that the former transcends the actual content of the latter, not necessarily the information making it up.


I never said information is physical, nor does my point require that it be so. Information can be abstract in its mode of existence and still constitute an "amount," especially when you consider the statements about beings from the Storyworlds existing because there's stories describing them. "More information" in that sense would just mean you're described more.


I gather as much. I mean that the Storyworlds, in-and-of-themselves, seem to be pixels, 2-D forms, polygons, etc. instead of those things being just the media representing them in the higher world.


I don't, really. It's a forced connection in my eyes.

Um... I don't wanna be that kind of guy, but about the cross-overs and Black Lagoon's one-sided canonity, it does seem like you probably overlooked the part regarding how one-sided cross-overs are valid in Re:Creators; as shown in a video that was linked in RM97's post. Meteora's creator was long dead to have approved the narration of the cross-over or make changes in Meteora's storyworld, so I think it would be valid to interpret that Black Lagoon's canonity to Re:Creators should be taken at a literal value, especially since there's nothing that opposing it. .- .

 

[RM97]

None of this proves Re:Creators and Black Lagoon are canon to each other. It just proves Black Lagoon is canon to Re:Creators, at the absolute best. For your argument to succeed, as mentioned previously, you'd first need to establish mutual canonicity, and this isn't sufficient.

And exactly what evidence is needed for this "Mutual Canonicity" to be confirmed?? We already have sufficient evidence that both series are written, printed, and owned by the same group. If you are asking for a reference of "Re:Creators" in "Black Lagoon", then it won't be possible unless the author wants it based on what I explained. There is also what @NothingToDebateWith explained above

This just means that manga's world is not the baseline of the verse. If anything it reaffirms that the baseline is, in fact, just Re:Creators' real world.

But the Baseline is not the Real World as I explained in my above comments. There are arguments as to why it doesn't make any sense from a plot POV of the series and based on the information we have gotten.

Yeah, the Real World is made of information, so it wouldn't transcend the information grounding these thoughts and ideas. Same thing with the Storyworlds; even granting the idea that the Real World transcends the Storyworlds, it would seem that the former transcends the actual content of the latter, not necessarily the information making it up.

I never said information is physical, nor does my point require that it be so. Information can be abstract in its mode of existence and still constitute an "amount," especially when you consider the statements about beings from the Storyworlds existing because there's stories describing them. "More information" in that sense would just mean you're described more.

The "Transcendence" here is implied to be the difference in "Quality". Information makes up the real world and even the storyworlds, thoughts, ideas, etc, which we both agree on. However, the information that makes up these things is not of the same quality as the information that makes up the Real World, given that it is stated that even the most trivial pieces of information (Bits) in the Real World are "Complex" which makes the Real World more "Deep"/"Profound". So even when these ideas and thoughts have information in them, they wouldn't be as "Real" as the people and objects of the Real World.

Interestingly enough, your argument that "More information" = "Better Described/More Detailed" goes hand in hand with my point about how being "Detailed" or not can make something exist or not as seen with Sirius's case regarding her Personality/Ego. So even when you are arguing that the Real World transcends the actual content of information of the storyworlds, this only proves my point about how the Real World is more information-dense and thus more "detailed" than the Storyworlds, thereby making the former more "existent" or "real" than the latter in comparison.

This is precisely the point that Meteora was making with her statement about the R>F analogy. Basically, the storyworlds are just physical manifestations/condensations of these ideas and thoughts without any extra addition of information. Hence Meteora commented on how despite being an entire world, her Universe is nothing more than a painting in the Real World based on the difference of the Information of both Worlds. She explained the nature of the information in the Real World as well as how much information content the Real World has and then made the R>F analogy about her world in comparison to the Real World. So it is a bit weird but the verse treats it as More Information = More Quality = More Real/Existent whereas Less Information = Less Quality = Less Real and Being Fictional/nonexistent.

I gather as much. I mean that the Storyworlds, in-and-of-themselves, seem to be pixels, 2-D forms, polygons, etc. instead of those things being just the media representing them in the higher world.

I think it has to do with how people perceive them or something like that. Some worlds are shown in the series to appear like normal such as Blitz's World, Aliceteria's World, etc.

I don't, really. It's a forced connection in my eyes.

If anything, the Infinite Abyss is stated to Transcend/Surpass the Worlds and is fully devoid of information where everything merges with it to become one (As seen in EoS when Altair and Setsuna are implied to have merged with it) as it is the Oblivion that existed before creation itself. It is also unreachable and sets up/controls the fate and causality of all creation. So it should be something tier-wise.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

If you are asking for a reference of "Re:Creators" in "Black Lagoon", then it won't be possible unless the author wants it based on what I explained.

Then establishing that the two are canon to each other is impossible.

But the Baseline is not the Real World as I explained in my above comments. There are arguments as to why it doesn't make any sense from a plot POV of the series and based on the information we have gotten.

All your comments, from what I can gather, at best establish a metaphysical difference between the Real World and the Storyworlds. It doesn't prove the Storyworlds would be the baseline of the setting when cashed out under Reality Equalization.

However, the information that makes up these things is not of the same quality as the information that makes up the Real World, given that it is stated that even the most trivial pieces of information (Bits) in the Real World are "Complex" which makes the Real World more "Deep"/"Profound". So even when these ideas and thoughts have information in them, they wouldn't be as "Real" as the people and objects of the Real World.

Neither "Complex" nor "Deep/Profound" are terms indicating a qualitative difference. If anything, the former indicates otherwise, and the latter indicates nothing whatsoever.

Interestingly enough, your argument that "More information" = "Better Described/More Detailed" goes hand in hand with my point about how being "Detailed" or not can make something exist or not as seen with Sirius's case regarding her Personality/Ego. So even when you are arguing that the Real World transcends the actual content of information of the storyworlds, this only proves my point about how the Real World is more information-dense and thus more "detailed" than the Storyworlds, thereby making the former more "existent" or "real" than the latter in comparison.

In this case, I assume Sirius' ego "didn't exist" because it wasn't there to begin with, not because it actually was of an ontologically lower order.

I think it has to do with how people perceive them or something like that. Some worlds are shown in the series to appear like normal such as Blitz's World, Aliceteria's World, etc.

Yeah, fair enough.

If anything, the Infinite Abyss is stated to Transcend/Surpass the Worlds and is fully devoid of information where everything merges with it to become one (As seen in EoS when Altair and Setsuna are implied to have merged with it) as it is the Oblivion that existed before creation itself. It is also unreachable and sets up/controls the fate and causality of all creation. So it should be something tier-wise.

Honestly the "Infinite Abyss" business is really vague. Will look over it again later, but for now I've no position on its tier.

 

[RM97]

Then establishing that the two are canon to each other is impossible.

Then like I asked, what exactly is needed as there are no guidelines or rules for canonicity for such a case except for this statement which I explained above including why BL cannot showcase Re:C characters.
Also, what about Public Domain Works?

All your comments, from what I can gather, at best establish a metaphysical difference between the Real World and the Storyworlds. It doesn't prove the Storyworlds would be the baseline of the setting when cashed out under Reality Equalization.

The Reality Equalization page states this:

Additionally, Reality Equalization cannot apply to virtual worlds that exist parallelly to the real world, as those are simply alternate universes, not lower of planes of reality.

To explain this, the Storyworlds are Alternate Worlds that exist outside the Real World. They have been stated to be depicted to exist as Timelines Parallel to the Real World. Matter of fact, these storyworlds, indeed have Space-Time and Dimensions as well as extradimensional realms in them. They even function as per Multiverse Theory and branch off into different timelines based on infinite possibilities given that the Selesia that came to the Real World and died is just one possibility and there are other Selesias. Matter of fact, the Real World is also stated to be an "Alternate Universe" to the Storyworld. So all in all, Storyworlds exist parallelly to the Real World as Alternate Universes and thus, Reality Equalization wouldn't apply since Story Worlds are simply Parallel/Alternate Universes.

If you are trying to argue that just because they are called "Stories", thus they will be Lower Plane Realities, then that is not the case here. "Story", "Timelines", "Universes", and "Worlds" are synonymously used in the series to represent the same thing. A major piece of evidence comes at the end of the series where Altair creates an "Alternate Timeline" with separate Cause and Effect for Setsuna and it is stated to be a World (that also has a Galaxy and Stars in it), and that Altair will create another Universe that exists Inside another World that itself exists inside another Story if the current world/universe is warped by Setsuna's mere presence, and that that will create Infinite Stories and Worlds, which are alluded to be the same thing.

In this case, I assume Sirius' ego "didn't exist" because it wasn't there to begin with, not because it actually was of an ontologically lower order.

Sirius's Ego/Personality was written with information but it was not sufficient enough. Matter of fact, it is stated that she lacked the "Density of Information compared to Altair". So basically, Sirius didn't have that "Detailed" information for her Personality which would make her personality existent compared to Altair. The "Information" that was used to create Sirius's Ego was only on paper (Since the Creators Wrote her), and was not sufficient or detailed enough to become existent/real. This is my point about how Information addition can make something more detailed and thus make it more real/existent and having less information would not even make them existent/real.

Another example of this lower/higher ontology difference based on "Information" that I can give is Altair. The reason why Altair is different from all the storyworld characters is that instead of being created as an idea or fantasy like other creations, she embodies the emotions and feelings of Setsuna (an Author from the Real World) and witnessed the Real World from Setsuna's heart and eyes. She was even called Setsuna's Alter-Ego. This is why Altair is born independent without any world and causality and could enter into the Real World easily. Altair being an ontologically higher-order entity compared to the storyworlds can be witnessed in the fact that she is called a Story which is an Endless Story/Everlasting Universe and she is also stated to be an "Infinite Existence" that is Eternal and Immutable, and she acts as the Archetype for all her Secondary Creations in the Storyworlds. Her presence itself warps the Real World's Causality and she is powerful enough to tear down the Reality-Fiction wall that none of the characters in the Storyworld could do and she also has the power to change their worlds.

Neither "Complex" nor "Deep/Profound" are terms indicating a qualitative difference. If anything, the former indicates otherwise, and the latter indicates nothing whatsoever.

We can argue semantics but my point is that More Information = More Quality = More Real/Existent whereas Less Information = Less Quality = Less Real and Being Fictional/nonexistent. While I do understand that under the new system, you cannot physically add up to reach Tier 1-A, but here the situation is completely different as there is no physical addition whatsoever. Addition of Information leads to something being more detailed which in turn makes it more real. This is why Meteora made a comparison between the information of her World with the information of the Real World as akin to a Painting/Picture in the World. This is also why she said that whatever the people in the Real World thought up for fun (ideas, fantasies, etc), actually determines/governs the Storyworlds (on top of creating them) despite the disparity in terms of information content between the thoughts of the people of the Real World and the entire Real World.

Honestly the "Infinite Abyss" business is really vague. Will look over it again later, but for now I've no position on its tier.

Aight.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Then like I asked, what exactly is needed as there are no guidelines or rules for canonicity for such a case except for this statement which I explained above including why BL cannot showcase Re:C characters.

Would require both verses to mutually acknowledge each other in relevant ways. Like a storyline that has ripples through both, or something of that nature.

To explain this, the Storyworlds are Alternate Worlds that exist outside the Real World. They have been stated to be depicted to exist as Timelines Parallel to the Real World. Matter of fact, these storyworlds, indeed have Space-Time and Dimensions as well as extradimensional realms in them. They even function as per Multiverse Theory and branch off into different timelines based on infinite possibilities given that the Selesia that came to the Real World and died is just one possibility and there are other Selesias. Matter of fact, the Real World is also stated to be an "Alternate Universe" to the Storyworld. So all in all, Storyworlds exist parallelly to the Real World as Alternate Universes and thus, Reality Equalization wouldn't apply since Story Worlds are simply Parallel/Alternate Universes.

If you are trying to argue that just because they are called "Stories", thus they will be Lower Plane Realities, then that is not the case here. "Story", "Timelines", "Universes", and "Worlds" are synonymously used in the series to represent the same thing. A major piece of evidence comes at the end of the series where Altair creates an "Alternate Timeline" with separate Cause and Effect for Setsuna and it is stated to be a World (that also has a Galaxy and Stars in it), and that Altair will create another Universe that exists Inside another World that itself exists inside another Story if the current world/universe is warped by Setsuna's mere presence, and that that will create Infinite Stories and Worlds, which are alluded to be the same thing.

Reality Equalization doesn't apply to parallel worlds because, if the "fictional" thing is actually just a parallel world, it's on the same level as the "Real World." So if you want to argue that the Storyworlds are just that, then you'd also be arguing that the Real World doesn't transcend the Storyworlds at all, which means the argument for 1-A collapses from the start.

Sirius's Ego/Personality was written with information but it was not sufficient enough. Matter of fact, it is stated that she lacked the "Density of Information compared to Altair". So basically, Sirius didn't have that "Detailed" information for her Personality which would make her personality existent compared to Altair. The "Information" that was used to create Sirius's Ego was only on paper (Since the Creators Wrote her), and was not sufficient or detailed enough to become existent/real. This is my point about how Information addition can make something more detailed and thus make it more real/existent and having less information would not even make them existent/real.

Yeah, she didn't have a personality because they literally didn't flesh it out sufficiently. There's a few scans in that blog that also seem to indicate her lack of an ego is because the audience's approval didn't reach all the way to her interiority, which seems to be reaffirmed later, when they say that Sirius doesn't have a personality because, while they could get the audience to approve of her existing, they couldn't dig deep enough with that.

So, none of this is proof that "Less Information = Qualitatively inferior," no.

 

[RM97]

Reality Equalization doesn't apply to parallel worlds because, if the "fictional" thing is actually just a parallel world, it's on the same level as the "Real World." So if you want to argue that the Storyworlds are just that, then you'd also be arguing that the Real World doesn't transcend the Storyworlds at all, which means the argument for 1-A collapses from the start.

But the thing is that the Real World is more Qualitatively Superior compared to the other Worlds which was my argument from the very beginning (We had a discussion on the topic of parallel worlds qualifying for 1-A or not if one world is qualitatively superior. You did say that it would qualify if you remember it). Hence why I keep saying that despite being Parallel Worlds with the story worlds, the Real World is "Transcendental" to them in the sense that:

• It is the source of all the worlds and creates/controls all aspects of them.
• It is inaccessible and uninteractable even by tech/monsters who can transcend space-time and dimensions.
• It holds enough power to be capable of wiping away all the Worlds if Altair were to succeed in destroying it.
• It is so information-dense that it has several orders of magnitude/incomparable differences with the storyworlds. In fact, it keeps on continuously creating infinite information that combines with each other to create information and so on.
• An entire Storyworld Universe is nothing more than a picture compared to the Real World.
• The thoughts of the people in the Real World are what manifest as and govern entire storyworlds.

Yeah, she didn't have a personality because they literally didn't flesh it out sufficiently. There's a few scans in that blog that also seem to indicate her lack of an ego is because the audience's approval didn't reach all the way to her interiority, which seems to be reaffirmed later, when they say that Sirius doesn't have a personality because, while they could get the audience to approve of her existing, they couldn't dig deep enough with that.

So, none of this is proof that "Less Information = Qualitatively inferior," no.

Not really, no. There are two issues with this argument:

1. Sirius was Forcefully Manifested by Meteora using the Power of Audience Approval to the point that Sirius was Manifested as a Reflection of Altair with the same powerset but more powerful. Mind you, this is the same Power System that manifested all the OP Power-Ups for the creations to fight against Altair, brought back erased entities, and even revived two beings from the dead. So you would think that being forcefully manifested would also include her personality (Given that even Erina and Setsuna were forcefully manifested and yet had their personalities). So how come the Audience's Approval couldn't manifest her personality if it could manifest everything else???
2. In the very same scene that you posted, the creators also said that their plan covered everything in detail and it was perfect (given they had months of Prep time) but that Sirius didn't have enough information compared to Altair which is reiterated by the Guidebook that Sirius didn't have the same density of information compared to Altair and thus, her personality never manifested despite her character having information. Strangely enough, Information Density/Content not letting something manifest is also something that Meteora hypothesized in previous episodes and while it was chalked off, we later find that the hypothesis is indeed true.

So all in all, it is not that the Audience Approval filtered out Sirius's Personality from being Manifested or that Sirius's Ego/Personality or Information/Data related to it did not at all exist, it is rather the fact that Sirius's personality had insufficient/less information which didn't make it exist at all and hence the "Lack of Ego". A small piece of evidence to back this up is how Selesia's personality is complex because her ego was created with sufficient information and a detailed worldview. This goes to show that with sufficient information content, you can make something more detailed, which makes that "thing" more real/existent (Selesia's Ego) compared to things with insufficient information that remain nonexistent (Sirius's Ego). There is also the Altair example that I gave in my previous comment.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But the thing is that the Real World is more Qualitatively Superior compared to the other Worlds which was my argument from the very beginning

I know, I am saying that as far as the wiki is concerned: If you argue the Real World is qualitatively superior to the Storyworlds, you can't use the "The Storyworlds are just parallel worlds!" logic to argue that they are the baseline of the verse. As long as you argue one transcends the other in that vein, Reality Equalization applies, and that's the end of it.

Not really, no. There are two issues with this argument:

Hmh. Yeah, fair enough.

 

[RM97]

I know, I am saying that as far as the wiki is concerned: If you argue the Real World is qualitatively superior to the Storyworlds, you can't use the "The Storyworlds are just parallel worlds!" logic to argue that they are the baseline of the verse. As long as you argue one transcends the other in that vein, Reality Equalization applies, and that's the end of it.

I didn't understand the last part, could you explain why that would be the case? I mean offsite you explained that a world parallel to a 4D universe can be 1-A as long as the relationship between them fulfills the criteria for QS by being more real and being inaccessible/unreachable.

Do we need a perspective from inside a story world/narrative world to fulfill this criterion of a story world being a baseline world?

Hmh. Yeah, fair enough.

So we agree that More Information = More Detailed = More Real/Existent?
If so, what is your stance on the cosmology so far?

1. We have the Storyworlds which are entire Parallel Universes/Timelines that branch off infinitely due to infinite possibilities and there are realms that Transcends/Surpasses Space-Time and Dimensions. There are also complete nonexistent/voids of chaos as part of the stories.
2. All of these are separated by a wall/gap from the Real World which is the source of all the worlds and creates/controls all of them. The Real World is so info-dense that even an entire storyworlds' info is akin to a picture or a thought of the person in the real world as the info that makes up the Real World is highly complex even for trivial things and makes everything multilayered and deep/profound. The Real World is also inaccessible to the inhabitants of the Storyworlds and holds enough power to destroy all the worlds if Altair had been successful in damaging its rationality.
3. Transcending/Surpassing all of these is the Oblivion/Infinite Abyss that completely lacks information (as it is what existed before all of creation came) and thus has no attributes to it and has no directions also. It acts as the blank canvas on which the Stories/Worlds can exist. It is responsible for setting up the destiny of all the worlds (which governs everything) including the Real World and houses the Imaginative Force in it. It can only be accessed if someone is made to transcend all of creation by the Imaginative Force (Eg, Altair and Setsuna who became Gods by the beliefs of the Audience) and even then, they merge with this Oblivion/Infinite Abyss. It is also worth noting that Altair said she would create a Layered World for Setsuna where a World or Universe exists inside a World inside a Story where even the base World/Universe is an Alternate Timeline to the Real World. All of this is in the Infinite Abyss where she created the Universe, Erased it, and Recreated Another one while they're implied to have merged with the Abyss in the End. If you want to add the connection of Solipscism into this, then go ahead, but that's all there is to it.

 

[Delta333]

I didn't understand the last part, could you explain why that would be the case? I mean offsite you explained that a world parallel to a 4D universe can be 1-A as long as the relationship between them fulfills the criteria for QS by being more real and being inaccessible/unreachable.

Because a piece of fiction being parallel world alone does not make it 4-D unless its existence is equal to another 4-D structure, which is the Real World in this case. Once you tried to prove that the Real World transcends the fiction, there’s no longer any basis to assume that the fiction is at the same level of existence as another 4-D structure at all.

 

[RM97]

Because a piece of fiction being parallel world alone does not make it 4-D unless its existence is equal to another 4-D structure, which is the Real World in this case.

But the comparison isn't the sole factor for a single Story World being 4D since there are statements and even visual depictions of them being entire timelines with separated causality that exist independent of the Real World.

If you want, there is also another structure aside from the Real World which can be used as a comparison for the Storyworlds and that is the "Birdcage" where nearly the latter half of the series takes place. It is a Closed Space that was Created + Controlled as a Live Story/Narrative Space which is neither a part of Reality nor Fantasy but a dimension that serves as a Crossover for different worlds. It was called a Replica of the Real World and was real enough to fool Altair into initially thinking it was the Real World for some time (Mind you, at that point, Altair knew how to differentiate between the Real World and the Storyworlds but couldn't do so here) until she figured out on her own that it was the Birdcage. Matter of fact, it was big and real enough to trap Altair in it and pin her down despite Altair's ability to travel into different worlds and having infinite power as well as being unaffected by the laws of any world. It is made so that even objects from the Real World (such as Machineries and Weapons) can freely exist inside it and it is a dimension separate from the Causality of the Real World and Storyworlds. It also has a starry sky and is implied to be infinite (for containing an infinite-sized realm) with an eternal flow of time (a flow of time is given since the events of the Birdcage took from Night to Early Morning in the Real World that was also reflected in the Birdcage).

 

[ShakeResounding]

Bump.