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Radiating with Skill: Ikki vs The Nuclear Throne (Grace)

Regarding "reflecting off the body:"

Yea, I'm not buying it. Though I'm not the voter, so I'll leave it to everyone else to vote.
 
I just don't like how completely contradictory the thing is.

Earl talks about not moving, yet the very damn description talks about minimal movement. Otherwise, its not explained it just works. Even using the anime scene, the sword never even touch him in the first place, so if we decide he's somehow deflecting them away with minimal movement, it doesn't look like that at all?

Again, Kuraudo's attack is not unavoidable in the most literal sense, that'd be an NLF. And an announcer or whoever is making that comment not being able to understand hyper small and refined movements make a lot of sense, if we decide to think is that.
 
Lancelot, are you voting btw?
 
Minimal can mean literally anything. Minimal means "as little as possible". It can mean literally 1 mm, and with the scans i would say the amount of movement is negligable.

But why is this a point at all? What Ten i Muhou does doesn't change. And idk why "i don't buy that" is an argument either. Ikki still yeets all the projectiles the same as Kuraudo did vs Sara as stated "he was calmly moving forward" to the point that they even thought he wasn't moving at first.
 
Except attacks 'bouncing off' like that won't do jack against radiation lasers. Even if he manages to deflect them off his body-but-not-really, aside from lasers being too concentrated to deflect, the radiation will still kill him.
 
Small movement is still movement, which is my entire point. A razor sharp evasion is minimal but still evasion, and would make sense the commentator couldn't even see it. Especially as Kuraudo uses his marginal counter to make Ten I Muho much more effective and even Ikki saw multiple swords while he used his hyper reflexes to move faster.

It is when bullets aren't comparable to near man sized radiation with barely any if no gaps, minimal movement does nothing about that, and I am not sure Ikki moving an inch away from those is gonna do him any good. We ain't gonna use a skill and say it just works, that's lazy as all hell.
 
The pen or the sword said:
If he has to dodge, then he can't do anything to a wall of projectiles with no gaps
Click to expand...
Not dodge, make the attacks miss.

―A counter-attack will be delayed if one uses the blade for deflection in order to perform an interception.

It is used for deflection not for jumping around. I literally showed you 3 cases where it was used, and the user was literally just walking as the projectiles moved past them. What is even the point of your arguments here? It's literally "Well he is literally seen to only walk straight without body movements and people even confuse it with standing still without moving at all, but there is this 1 line that out of context could mean he jumps around and there's that we're sticking with this".
 
My point is the projectiles are to close, he cant make a small movement to make the man sized projectiles flying at him in a solid wall miss. You gave me three scans one mentions minuscule movement one claims they move around him. Which is it? You cant even clearly define the ability cause the author doesn't define them.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
It is when bullets aren't comparable to near man sized radiation with barely any if no gaps, minimal movement does nothing about that, and I am not sure Ikki moving an inch away from those is gonna do him any good. We ain't gonna use a skill and say it just works, that's lazy as all hell.
Click to expand...
Yes tell that to Ikki though. They literally do not move and just calmly walk or run towards the person. And don't bring that commentary stuff here:

1. Alongside the commentator there is always a high skilled "commentator" he basically serves as "explanation for everything" if needed.

2. This was seen even by ikki. So yeah.

3. Kuraudo is not fast at movement, he's fast at reacting. He literally just thinks fast. Not move fast.

About "it just works". How many cases do you actually want me to name with "it just works here"?

1. Kojirou's dimensional stuff. No way in hell that's actually possible, but hey "it just works".

2. Diavolo, the meme himself, it just works.

There are cases that we have to say that, cus we can't just say "lol no" to a character's arsenal just because we disagree with the author.
 
Uuuh... how is minimally moving to evade jumping around? If you aren't even engaging what I say, please don't try to justify stuff.

Minimally moving the body so you don't need to move the blade goes perfectly with what you've posted, even that quote you just used. If it's actually used the way you say, are you arguing Ikki is using his own body to deflect radioactive bullets away when the attack has only been used on physical things and the bullets in question are, I don't know, Radioactive?

You are joking, right?

Edit: Now you are talking bullshit. The whole point of Marginal Counter is that Kuraudo does 2 or 3 moves in the time someone does one due to his reflexes. That is the literal definition of moving quicker, which is also why his "weakness" is long battles as moving more depletes his stamina more. I am starting to lack the ability to take your words at face value.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
1. It worked on more attacks. Types don't matter it evades everything from sword attacks to projectiles. Time is unlimited, he just holds his sword upright, why in the world would that have a time limit? It's like saying "prove me ikki can hold on to his sword for more than 10 minutes". Or "prove me you can lie on your bed for 1 hour".

2. Yes that's when the time limit ends. Until that happens nothing's gonna bother ikki. Also ikki has fought with 1 arm before, no big deal.

3. Not really do you even know how danger sense works? He literally knows where is danger and how to avoid it.

4. I am amazed at how "stamina" is a factor in a 2 to 3 min long fight, for a guy who could fight with practically no food for weeks in a row. I am legit amazed.

5. Then both Ittou Shura and trackless step will be in play. So it ain't spatial haxing Ikki.

6. More radiation? It's the last level, besides as decided it won't passively kill. "Attacks will kill" yeah ten i muhou and trackless step (enemies won't attack an opponent they can't perceive).

7. It won't be able to do any of that. By that time ikki has Ittou Shura (blitz). So it won't be acting against a guy who is literally invisible (trackless step) and immensly faster than him.
Click to expand...
Will Trackless Step even work on the Throne? Doesn't it rely on a supposed weakness of the human brain? The Throne is a machine so why would it have that weakness?
 
1. Just because another person does it doesn't mean it's right.

2. Diavolo's ability isn't done by skill, and it actually has an explanation.

If you want to argue that an ability is skill, bite the bullet and tell me how. Since saying "Ikki evades all attacks, because he does" doesn't give us anything here.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Uuuh... how is minimally moving to evade jumping around? If you aren't even engaging what I say, please don't try to justify stuff.
Minimally moving the body so you don't need to move the blade goes perfectly with what you've posted, even that quote you just used. If it's actually used the way you say, are you arguing Ikki is using his own body to deflect radioactive bullets away when the attack has only been used on physical things and the bullets in question are, I don't know, Radioactive?

You are joking, right?
Click to expand...
Because minimally moving, wouldn't be enough to dodge an army of machine guns. Just imagine yourself in a situation, an entire army poining at you and you dodge everything by leaning on 1 leg instead of too.

Pretty sure the radioactive bullets can actually be slapped away, they aren't non corporeal like actual radioactivity apparently which is why it's even an argument in the first place.

@Mori

Eh?

Ikki broke causality and fate with willpower, that's not sth that's gonna happen with "hard work", but he did, whatcha gonna say now, he doesn't have any of those cus i don't believe he does?

He restarted his own heart, via skill. I guess he can't do it then.

He literally squeezes energy from his cells. That gets yeeted too.

An ability being hard to explaind doesn't mean we can just yeet it in a corner and act like it doesn't exist. Show me 1 case when this has happened.
 
And you shouldn't also be able to control kinetic energy to perfectly take an attack hundreds of times above your own AP and reflect it at someone while ignoring Newton's Third Law, but look how fun Ikki can do that. Impossible in the most literal sense by pure physics, much more than minimally dodging a hail of bullets, but voila. That logic doesn't work here.

Am done, vote remains for Throne.
 
1. The radioactive attacks are actual balls and lasers, not bullets.

2. Literally all the things you listed are Powers & Abilities, not skill. Ikki has a lot of powerful abilities. His skill is good. But he is nowhere near the most skilled fellow on the wiki, since his feats of 'skillm are not skill.

It's Powers & Abilities.
 
@Mori

Sure you decide what counts man, how dare i even try to make a non knowledgeable member on rakudai think that Skill is actual skill.

Im done telling people on rakudai. It's not gonna get anywhere. Like we're really at a point where pure headcannon and opinion wins over canon feats, statements and explanations in verse. It's impressive to say the least.

Anyway unfollowing.
 
Schnee One said:
Jaaaeeeeeesus this thread is a mess
Click to expand...
Just a 'lil bit.

Anyways, lots of debate, any last votes?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I'm done telling people on rakudai. It's not gonna get anywhere. Like we're really at a point where pure headcannon and opinion wins over canon feats, statements and explanations in verse. It's impressive to say the least.
Click to expand...
Could you like, honest to God, curve the shitty attitude?

Its not headcanon for me to rationalize from the little we understand rather than going "it just works now shut up". Especially when you decide to throw explicit definitions because they don't suit your conclusion.

This is Ikki's "Perfect Vision is unbeatable even against enemies that aren't thinking" all over again. The description literally says, right there, trying to act mindless is itself gonna be dictated by your personality, so it is not truly mindless to Perfect Vision, because there is a pattern. But no, archery fuckboi attacks wildly, **** that line, Perfect Vision works no matter what even if the character somehow actually battles with no rhyme to their movements, my interpretation is above what the very novel I am quoting says.

We are gonna be strict of stuff we can't make sense out of, what did you expect?
 
Yeah I still think it's a stomp. Ikki doesn't resist the radiation and just dies. I don't know how long it will take but he hasn't displayed a level of resistance to hold out against it.
 
Moritzva said:
2. Literally all the things you listed are Powers & Abilities, not skill. Ikki has a lot of powerful abilities. His skill is good. But he is nowhere near the most skilled fellow on the wiki, since his feats of 'skillm are not skill.

It's Powers & Abilities.
Click to expand...
Weapon Mastery is also listed under Power & Abilities, so I guess that also discounts it as skill. Anyway, I can guess why Body Control is not considered skill since it's basically moving things in your body, however, Ikki has many skill feats that easily puts him in number 1 (2 since Edel outskills him). If you think there are more skilled characters in the wiki we can always go to the skill threads and discuss it
 
As for things that doesn't make sense, I could also say that some other things doesn't make sense, like killing radioactive beings with radioactive stuff or affecting Type 4 Acausals with Fate hax, but it happens.

As for Ten I Muho, it doesn't make sense to dodge hundreds of bullets by just making a minimal movement, that doesn't leave space to dodge the attacks. Anyway, this won't lead anywhere.

As for the match, I still think it's a stomp.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
@Mori

Sure you decide what counts man,
Click to expand...
About these 'bias' situations, I find the gall to be indignant to the point of insisting that I must not only discount all votes that disagree with them, but also not discount any of their own (few) votes, then go on to say I am biased because of it, is one of the most disrespectful and conceited things I could ever hear.

I judge fights as I see them. Neither side will get their votes discounted for no reason. That is all.
 
It making no sense doesn't in anyway change it being the best interpretation that makes sense with the limited information given.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. If you want to do something as dumb as saying something "just works" with no basis behind it, then be my guest. But don't argue it as something people will take at face value. That shit is getting tiring.
 
I thought I voted... Maybe it's because I showed too much uncertainty in the vote?

Whether or not this is a stomp would be left for the future anyways.
 
I'm at work but I can talk later.

I believe I counted you.
 
On it being a stomp-

Ikki has immense skill and one shots, alongside body control and various amps (that he should use carefully).

The Throne has radhax and danmaku alongside a long, extended fight to wear Ikki down.

Both can win, which is more likely?
 
Wait, doesn't the throne only loop if you break the generators first?
 
Wokistan said:
Wait, doesn't the throne only loop if you break the generators first?
Click to expand...
It's in the OP.
 
Are you really allowed to force all generators to be broken though? Given that a character could figure that out themselves and the throne can't break it's own generators it seems odd.
 
It's a considerable part of it's abilities and a massively interesting key (with a tad of Game Mechanics via not being able to destroy them with it's own attacks), so yes.

Ikki just doesn't have to destroy them the second time around, and probably won't.
 
If its legal i guess i'll vote the throne.
 
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