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Quick DMC speed adjustment

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@Ant

Nevan's lightning is stated to be electricity and in the cutscene she creates it by forming a small cloud from her breah, from which the lightning if produced.

So it's real lightning.
 
It does not matter. I would appreciate if any one here can link me a video of Nevan's lightning so I can do a calculation on it to see how much it yields.

EDIT: I am guessing this video is related to Nevan's lightning feat in question? But then again, I don't think scaling Dante's speed to Nevan's lightning in this scene is going to yield very high results for Dante's speed either, considering that the lightning moves so much faster than Dante is capable of moving in that boss fight.
 
I am personally fine with treating it as real lightning. I was just trying to be helpful.
 
No problem.
 
Lina you calculated the Rain feat yourself..... It's in the opening of DMC3
 
@AMM: Agreed. Dante in Nevan's boss fight moved vastly slower compared to her lightning. Heck, Dante can't even react to said lightning in question (unless a cutscene explicitly shows us this.

@Gargoyle: Said calculation was rejected by the calc team, because the premise of the calculation was completely incorrect. Dante/Vergil did not cut those raindrops one by one, as nowhere in the game is this suggested. In fact, DontTalk rejected the calc.

  • Don't assume that calculations are accepted and rejected here on this site as you please. That is the calc group's job.
 
AMM's anti-Nevan argument is incredibly fallacious and based on nothing but apparent speed in gameplay.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
AMM's anti-Nevan argument is incredibly fallacious
Click to expand...
Tell me what fallacy I'm using If I'm pointing out the objective, that Nevans lightning is obviously slower than lightning; that there are no camera effects present which could possibly explain why that is the case.
 
I already pointed out. You can't use the speed that is apparent to you to say that is obviously slower than lightning. By your logic, no character is faster than Subsonic.

And don't give me anything about "Camera effects".

By your logic, Goku and Zamasu are Superhuman in speed in this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_tvepM9Q8w

It's a standard assumption that in any fight involving characters with superhuman speed fighting that looks no faster than a normal human fight, that the scene is slown down.

This is basic.
 
I don't really care that Goku and Zamasu have superhuman speed in certain fight-scenes, I'd rather believe that than to deny what we see with our own eyes; come on man, you tell me I'm using fallacies when you're using one in your own reply .
 
You still haven't addressed why Dante in said boss fight is moving so much slower compared to Nevan's lightning, as Dante is almost frozen compared to Nevan's lightning in terms of speed.

Let me get the Nevan calc done first, and we can continue this discussion.
 
I'm not using appeal to consequence, I'm using a basic annalogy to point out the fallacy of your argument.

You haven't answered my argument either.

Are Goku and Zamasu fighting at Peak Human speeds there? Of course not.

So why is Nevan's lightning considered slow in speed when she does lightning-time feats in gameplay? It's not slow, it's just at an apparent speed that is needed for the player to react. The lightning speed is unremarkable / not that fast to Dante.

You previously said that we need other scenes or statements to prove lightning speed, and we have, but you still refuse to accept it by continuously treating the gameplay as if it is the only thing we have.

So you contradict yourself.
 
Lina Shields said:
You still haven't addressed why Dante in said boss fight is moving so much slower compared to Nevan's lightning, as Dante is almost frozen compared to Nevan's lightning in terms of speed.
Let me get the Nevan calc done first, and we can continue this discussion.
Click to expand...
Did you read my previous comments? There's no calc to be done.

And Dante isn't moving much slower compared to her lightning. I don't know where you got that from.
 
I was not talking about your argment with AMM. I was just saying that you should let me do my calc regarding Nevan's lightning before proceeding w/the discussion.

Just because Nevan's lightning is MHS+ does not automatically guarantee MHS speed for the one reacting to it.
 
I am not talking about my argument with AMM either.

I am talking about you wanting to calc Nevan's lightning when I pointed out there's nothing to be calced.
 
"Are Goku and Zamasu fighting at Peak Human speeds there? Of course not."

What makes you so sure of that? It's rather on the contrary, they're obviously fighting at about peak-human speeds in that scene; it's unfortunate the only argument against that is the presence of an imaginary camera effect.

"You previously said that we need other scenes or statements to prove lightning speed"

People change, I don't think statements and other scenes alone prove lightning speed. But that the speed of the actual lightning bolt should also be considered.
 
"What makes you so sure of that? It's rather on the contrary, they're obviously fighting at about peak-human speeds in that scene; it's unfortunate the only argument against that is the presence of an imaginary camera effect."

No? We know they are fighting on speeds likely around billions to quadrillions of times the speed of light, due to their actual, real quantifiable feats.

You act as if every scene exists in a cosmic-vacuum devoid of context from the rest of the series.

"People change, I don't think statements and other scenes alone prove lightning speed. But that the speed of the actual lightning bolt should also be considered. "

So basically, your argument is: It can be stated to be electricity, it can come from clouds, it can be stated to be real lightning... But if it isn't as fast as real lightning is to an ordinary human's perspective, it isn't lightning.

Your argument is flat out objectively incorrect, I'm sorry. The statements and it coming from clouds is more than enough to determine it as real lightning. The speed in which it is apparently moving to these superhuman characters is not an argument.
 
Also, even if Nevan's lightning doesn't scale to base Dante, it scales to Devil Trigger due to Vergil's feat with quicksilver.

Quicksilver Style makes Nevan's lightning flat out slower than Dante.
 
Quicksilver Style makes Nevan's lightning flat out slower than Dante.

Mind if I calculate this feat as well? If it is shown to us in gameplay, I would like to calc Dante's exact speed with Quicksilver.
 
"No? We know they are fighting on speeds likely around billions to quadrillions of times the speed of light, due to their actual, real quantifiable feats."

They can have whatever feats they want, it doesn't change the fact that in that scene we witness them move at speeds way slower then that.

"So basically, your argument is: It can be stated to be electricity, it can come from clouds, it can be stated to be real lightning... But if it isn't as fast as real lightning is to an ordinary human's perspective, it isn't lightning."

When we analyze any series we judge it based of what we see; if I can clearly witness and calculate that lightning bolt to move at a speed of about 100m/s then thats that really; using other qualities that lightning bolt has (apart from it's actual speed) to prove otherwise doesn't change anything. And man, if it's slow from my perspective I can only imagine how much slower it would be from a super-humans point of view.
 
"They can have whatever feats they want, it doesn't change the fact that in that scene we witness them move at speeds way slower then that."

That's because the audience needs to see the action on screen.

It has absolutely nothing to do with their actual speed in-scene. Do you understand this concept?

"When we analyze any series we judge it based of what we see"

Not entirely. What we the audience see can often be slowed down for us to see, which is a basic assumption to make in any fight involving characters with calculated speeds beyond human perception, but the fight itself is visible to an audience that isn't on the scene.

"And man, if it's slow from my perspective I can only imagine how much slower it would be from a super-humans point of view"

Stop strawmaning my argument.

It's slow to our outside-universe perspective because we need to see the action. In-universe the simple explanation is that Dante is fast enough to perceive and react to them.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's slow to our outside-universe perspective because we need to see the action. In-universe the simple explanation is that Dante is fast enough to perceive and react to them.
Click to expand...
While I can examine and measure the speeds of characters within scenes; determine with a great level of accuracy of what they are, you can proceed to state my measurements are incorrect due to a hypothesis which is unarguably unfalsifiable ; where is this in-universe perspective you speak of? Can I compare the footage between the two?
 
The in-universe perspective is that Dante and Nevan are fighting at superhuman speeds that make lightning seem "slow", and the gameplay is reflecting that since you are controlling Dante and seeing the story from his perspective.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The in-universe perspective is that Dante and Nevan are fighting at superhuman speeds that make lightning seem "slow", and the gameplay is reflecting that since you are controlling Dante and seeing the story from his perspective.
Click to expand...
Do you have proof of that?
 
That's simply how the game is.

That's implied by the rain scene that to Dante (and Vergil) everything is slow to them.

Honestly though this is getting redundant, was that calc done.
 
Those are from cutscenes, which differ from in the gameplay. Within gameplay those same raindrops you talk about are falling at a normal rate and bullets are fast enough that they aren't visible.
 
"Those are from cutscenes, which differ from in the gameplay"

Not really. Same character, same story.

"Within gameplay those same raindrops you talk about are falling at a normal rate and bullets are fast enough that they aren't visible"

The first is simply because it'd look ******* weird if the rain was frozen during game. The second is due to the mechanics of Dante's handguns.

And this isn't even comparable. Nevan's lightning in the cutscene is the same as in the gameplay. In that scene, you can assume that it was slowed down.
 
"The first is simply because it'd look ******* weird if the rain was frozen during game."

Okay, you can't say gameplay speeds vary wildly and then also argue that they're reliable enough to calc feats from. Secondly, this is just moving the goalposts.

You're asking for proof that the game is real time. AMM provides it, the rain is slow. Then it's "Oh well the rain is just faster than normal". Then AMM can point out gravity is still working normally. Oh that's just fast too. The flowers blowing in the breeze? That's just sped up. The guns are sped up. The birds are sped up. Everything is sped up except this lightning for some reason.

Is it really more reasonable to assume the flowers are blowing 50x faster than normal, the bullets are moving 10,000x faster than normal, the birds are flying 400x faster than normal, the rain is falling 1768x faster than normal and that gravity magically increased a millionfold all just to explai the lightning being slow...

Or is it more reasonable to assume everything is moving normally it's just that the lightning happens to not be swift?
 
"Okay, you can't say gameplay speeds vary wildly and then also argue that they're reliable enough to calc feats from. Secondly, this is just moving the goalposts."

I never said we should calc feats from gameplay. And not really, it's just being reasonable rather than irrationally demanding the entire game series to have a consistent speed throughout.

But then again, you considered Final Fantasy XV to be Subsonic due to background lightning.

"You're asking for proof that the game is real time. AMM provides it, the rain is slow. Then it's "Oh well the rain is just faster than normal". Then AMM can point out gravity is still working normally. Oh that's just fast too. The flowers blowing in the breeze? That's just sped up. The guns are sped up. The birds are sped up. Everything is sped up except this lightning for some reason."

Thanks for completely strawmaning my entire argument. I never said this, I never said anything was sped up, and I'm pretty sure you know I didn't. I just said that the speed varies from scene to scene in order to fit the gameplay and scene.

For instance, fights in the rain are inherently dramatic, which is why you can even see MFTL+ characters fighting in the rain.

"Or is it more reasonable to assume everything is moving normally it's just that the lightning happens to not be swift?"

No, it's more reasonable to assume that the lightning is as fast as real lightning for being electricity and coming from clouds Nevan produces, and that during the fight scene it is just slow for the sake of gameplay functionality.
 
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