XitSign
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Big Bang is here to undo all of that.
There's some simple stuff this affects, basically we're just going to be re-upgrading the High Tiers based on this.
However, in the fight there's some interesting bits of narration over the battle that might imply Big Bang either has unique abilities or some possible higher feat scaling. So lets jump right in.
Really quick, here is links to the last few CRTs for reference if they're needed:
Why We Scale Based On Rarity/Star Level
Where Fusion Values Come From and Lore Significance
The Recent, Minor Downgrade That We're Somewhat Undoing Because Gungho Are a Bunch Of Comedians
Current Fusion Values
1. The Easy Stuff:
Big Bang has 3 forms ('The One that Comes from the Chaos', 'The One that Writhes in the Void', and 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang'), The one we care about though is 'The One that Writhes in the Void's fusion into its final form, 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang' as it is superior to all our other options for 10 Star Monsters
Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang = The One that Writhes in the Void (9 Star Monster), Giant Fire Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Water Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Wood Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Light Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Dark Gem (9 Star Monster) = 6x 9 Star Monsters = 6 x 1.1746936 x 10^46 = 7.0481616 x 10^46 4-B
Compare that to our current value of 1.6614451 x 10^46, and it's more substantial than I expected honestly... Only about a 4.2x difference but that's decently higher than my original expectations...I was expecting to barely get over 1x
Only 10 Star Monsters would scale to this, so very few characters will need any sorts of updates, and since it's not even a Tier change it's only a justification update. The only character currently on the wiki who even scales would be Mille
2. Stuff That's More Nebulous:
Big Bang...Is a big guy. The entirety of Big Bang's 'dungeon' is fought out in space (This happens a LOT in Puzzle and Dragons, both in the game and the anime...Does everyone just have space flight? Self-Sustenance? It's kinda silly how often this happens...), with the boss fight in particular always having planets and seemingly stars orbiting the battlefield.
And that's just the background, The One that Comes from the Chaos, The One that Writhes in the Void, and Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang each are in the centers of massive, swirling sections of space that have all sorts of lights and shapes within as you can see in both the actual boss battle and the provided example stills.
'The One that Comes from the Chaos' has an idle animation where it extends an arm out from the sphere in the middle of this massive cosmic swirl, wraps it partway around the swirl, and both forms and crushes an energy sphere in its claw
'The One that Writhes in the Void's background becomes a lot more active, the planets and more distant celestial bodies are now orbiting it even faster, with particularly fast streaks in the distant sky flying around. It can flex it's still massively outstretched claws to send some of these orbiting celestial bodies right at the player's screen where they're revealed to be bright balls of light of some sort
'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang' has a very similar animation to what is above, waving his claw around before several lights suddenly rocket in from the darkness of space, crashing into the player back to back.
He has another animation of creating a massive ball of energy in that claw and just blowing it up on the player infront of himself, which considering his own huge size this is likely quite the substantial explosion
And he does it again, creates another massive energy ball that's even larger than before and detonates it to attack
And upon Big Bang's eventual defeat we can see that the massive light flare in the background goes with Big Bang in his death, and what is left behind is an even bigger scope of swirling space into a bit of blackness
All these examples make it clear that Big Bang is proportionally sized to his 'acceleration disk' surrounding him, and he's very obviously manipulating various celestial bodies, further confirming his sheer size scale.
Ontop of this, during the fight Big Bang has a number of 'cosmic' style named attacks. I know the names of attacks don't normally mean much without further evidence, but I feel it's supportive that they're clearly making a point of how large and space-themed he is:
The One that Comes from the Chaos: Gravity Zone, Accretion Disk, Supergravity, Event Horizon, Black Hole of Chaos
The One that Writhes in the Void: Galaxy Zone, Hyper Mass, Hyper Gravity, Galactic Nova, Galactic Nova of Chaos (Really mixing it up there)
Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang: Cosmic Energy, Meteor Dust, Galaxy Hole, Black Nova, Wormhole, Supernova, Galaxy Power, Universe Energy
The fight also has narration boxes that play over Big Bang's actions, describing what is going on, with this pair being the most interesting about his size and the nature of the center of the acceleration disk:
When 'The One that Comes from the Chaos' transforms into 'The One that Writhes in the Void': "The Gravitational Force Intensifies..."
When 'The One that Writes in the Void' transforms into 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang': "The dimension warps...It's true form emerges from the singularity!"
This seems to me that they're implying that the sphere in the center is meant to be a 'gravitational singularity', that what we're looking at is some sort of a Black Hole. This definitely needs to be looked into to determine if this would qualify by Black Hole standards, what it would mean for Big Bang's powers and resistances, and also what it means for his size scale as well (since there is a common theory that most major galaxies have their own black holes in the center, this may be implying that the acceleration disk we see is, indeed, a true galaxy)
And, of course, the elephant in the room: Big Bang's title as the 'Zero Dimension Creator'. I know titles aren't feats (We had a major debate in the last CRT about this), but it does at least need thrown out there that not only is that Big Bang's official title, it is also the name they give his dungeon, and the name of his unique passive ability is 'Stirring of the Creator'
I know all of that doesn't mean much on it's own, but I think the fact that the narration notes that Big Bang 'warps' the Dimension itself when he transforms makes it possibly supplementary evidence. If Big Bang's mere presence is enough to warp the dimension, is that enough of a feat of 'significantly affecting' to scale to anything?
So...That was a LOT of information, and what are the final conclusions here? I still don't totally know, this is an open space discussion for the thread.
Big Bang clearly eclipses planets, as well as lights inside of its acceleration disk that appear to be stars in his size. The narration states he exists within a singularity, and this singularity seems to be pulling together an acceleration disk very similar in shape to how we would depict a galaxy. And ontop of that his mere presence is enough to 'warp' the dimension. We need to determine which parts of those feats would qualify as only abilities, and which parts would qualify for scaling. We also need an idea of what size we can accept he truly is, and the possibility that he may have AP via that sheer size in the first place.
3. Conclusion:
-Big Bang's fusion value for 10 Star Monsters should upgrade them to 7.0481616 x 10^46 Joules
-A discussion about all of the things Big Bang does in his animation, what the narration tells us, and what his titles mean needs to be had to determine if any other changes need to be made. And regardless of scaling, a clear, accepted value of what 'Large Size' he should be is necessary.
There's some simple stuff this affects, basically we're just going to be re-upgrading the High Tiers based on this.
However, in the fight there's some interesting bits of narration over the battle that might imply Big Bang either has unique abilities or some possible higher feat scaling. So lets jump right in.
Really quick, here is links to the last few CRTs for reference if they're needed:
Why We Scale Based On Rarity/Star Level
Where Fusion Values Come From and Lore Significance
The Recent, Minor Downgrade That We're Somewhat Undoing Because Gungho Are a Bunch Of Comedians
Current Fusion Values
1. The Easy Stuff:
Big Bang has 3 forms ('The One that Comes from the Chaos', 'The One that Writhes in the Void', and 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang'), The one we care about though is 'The One that Writhes in the Void's fusion into its final form, 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang' as it is superior to all our other options for 10 Star Monsters
Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang = The One that Writhes in the Void (9 Star Monster), Giant Fire Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Water Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Wood Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Light Gem (9 Star Monster), Giant Dark Gem (9 Star Monster) = 6x 9 Star Monsters = 6 x 1.1746936 x 10^46 = 7.0481616 x 10^46 4-B
Compare that to our current value of 1.6614451 x 10^46, and it's more substantial than I expected honestly... Only about a 4.2x difference but that's decently higher than my original expectations...I was expecting to barely get over 1x
Only 10 Star Monsters would scale to this, so very few characters will need any sorts of updates, and since it's not even a Tier change it's only a justification update. The only character currently on the wiki who even scales would be Mille
2. Stuff That's More Nebulous:
Big Bang...Is a big guy. The entirety of Big Bang's 'dungeon' is fought out in space (This happens a LOT in Puzzle and Dragons, both in the game and the anime...Does everyone just have space flight? Self-Sustenance? It's kinda silly how often this happens...), with the boss fight in particular always having planets and seemingly stars orbiting the battlefield.
And that's just the background, The One that Comes from the Chaos, The One that Writhes in the Void, and Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang each are in the centers of massive, swirling sections of space that have all sorts of lights and shapes within as you can see in both the actual boss battle and the provided example stills.
'The One that Comes from the Chaos' has an idle animation where it extends an arm out from the sphere in the middle of this massive cosmic swirl, wraps it partway around the swirl, and both forms and crushes an energy sphere in its claw
'The One that Writhes in the Void's background becomes a lot more active, the planets and more distant celestial bodies are now orbiting it even faster, with particularly fast streaks in the distant sky flying around. It can flex it's still massively outstretched claws to send some of these orbiting celestial bodies right at the player's screen where they're revealed to be bright balls of light of some sort
'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang' has a very similar animation to what is above, waving his claw around before several lights suddenly rocket in from the darkness of space, crashing into the player back to back.
He has another animation of creating a massive ball of energy in that claw and just blowing it up on the player infront of himself, which considering his own huge size this is likely quite the substantial explosion
And he does it again, creates another massive energy ball that's even larger than before and detonates it to attack
And upon Big Bang's eventual defeat we can see that the massive light flare in the background goes with Big Bang in his death, and what is left behind is an even bigger scope of swirling space into a bit of blackness
All these examples make it clear that Big Bang is proportionally sized to his 'acceleration disk' surrounding him, and he's very obviously manipulating various celestial bodies, further confirming his sheer size scale.
Ontop of this, during the fight Big Bang has a number of 'cosmic' style named attacks. I know the names of attacks don't normally mean much without further evidence, but I feel it's supportive that they're clearly making a point of how large and space-themed he is:
The One that Comes from the Chaos: Gravity Zone, Accretion Disk, Supergravity, Event Horizon, Black Hole of Chaos
The One that Writhes in the Void: Galaxy Zone, Hyper Mass, Hyper Gravity, Galactic Nova, Galactic Nova of Chaos (Really mixing it up there)
Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang: Cosmic Energy, Meteor Dust, Galaxy Hole, Black Nova, Wormhole, Supernova, Galaxy Power, Universe Energy
The fight also has narration boxes that play over Big Bang's actions, describing what is going on, with this pair being the most interesting about his size and the nature of the center of the acceleration disk:
When 'The One that Comes from the Chaos' transforms into 'The One that Writhes in the Void': "The Gravitational Force Intensifies..."
When 'The One that Writes in the Void' transforms into 'Zero Dimension Creator, Big Bang': "The dimension warps...It's true form emerges from the singularity!"
This seems to me that they're implying that the sphere in the center is meant to be a 'gravitational singularity', that what we're looking at is some sort of a Black Hole. This definitely needs to be looked into to determine if this would qualify by Black Hole standards, what it would mean for Big Bang's powers and resistances, and also what it means for his size scale as well (since there is a common theory that most major galaxies have their own black holes in the center, this may be implying that the acceleration disk we see is, indeed, a true galaxy)
And, of course, the elephant in the room: Big Bang's title as the 'Zero Dimension Creator'. I know titles aren't feats (We had a major debate in the last CRT about this), but it does at least need thrown out there that not only is that Big Bang's official title, it is also the name they give his dungeon, and the name of his unique passive ability is 'Stirring of the Creator'
I know all of that doesn't mean much on it's own, but I think the fact that the narration notes that Big Bang 'warps' the Dimension itself when he transforms makes it possibly supplementary evidence. If Big Bang's mere presence is enough to warp the dimension, is that enough of a feat of 'significantly affecting' to scale to anything?
So...That was a LOT of information, and what are the final conclusions here? I still don't totally know, this is an open space discussion for the thread.
Big Bang clearly eclipses planets, as well as lights inside of its acceleration disk that appear to be stars in his size. The narration states he exists within a singularity, and this singularity seems to be pulling together an acceleration disk very similar in shape to how we would depict a galaxy. And ontop of that his mere presence is enough to 'warp' the dimension. We need to determine which parts of those feats would qualify as only abilities, and which parts would qualify for scaling. We also need an idea of what size we can accept he truly is, and the possibility that he may have AP via that sheer size in the first place.
3. Conclusion:
-Big Bang's fusion value for 10 Star Monsters should upgrade them to 7.0481616 x 10^46 Joules
-A discussion about all of the things Big Bang does in his animation, what the narration tells us, and what his titles mean needs to be had to determine if any other changes need to be made. And regardless of scaling, a clear, accepted value of what 'Large Size' he should be is necessary.
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