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Puzzle and Dragons CRT 2: High-Tier Upgrades

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Alternate Title: "Xit is an idiot and this should've just been one big CRT"

Lets tackle everything else important for cleaning up PAD and getting it up to date.

1. Rarity Rating

But first, a quick explanation about PAD's rarity system and why we currently use it for scaling, and why we should continue to do so.

From what I've seen, there are verses that have a rarity system but it has no relationship to power and scaling. However, that doesn't seem to be the case for PAD for a handful of reasons:

Rarity Increases as Monsters Evolve: PAD is a monster collecting franchise (like Pokémon), and like other monster collecting franchises the monsters can evolve and become more powerful. As Monsters evolve in PAD, the rarity rating increases with each evolution.
A Tyrra-bean (1 Star) evolves into a Tyrra (2 Star), which then evolves into a Tyran (3 Star), and into Tyrannos (4 Star), and so on.
This is also the case for much more powerful gods, bosses, and other major characters who start with an already high rarity ranking, it continues to go up as they evolve and become stronger.
Zeus (6 Star) evolves into Awoken Zeus (7 Star), which then evolves into Awoken Zeus Olympios (8 Star), and so on.
The evolutions are, by design, stronger than their previous form, and their rarity correlates to this.

Rarity Between Monster Counterparts are Consistent: Monsters that are of the same group known as a 'series', or are of similar series will have the same exact ratings between their counterparts, further implying how they should be equals.
Tyrra, Melaburn, Morigannon, and Warzard are all monsters that have evolved one time from weaker dragon forms in the 'Starter Dragon' series. And each of them have the same rarity of 2 Stars
Similarly, Awoken Zeus and Awoken Thoth are both the first evolution of the base forms of gods, and despite them being from different series of gods they still align by both being 7 Stars.

Feats Preformed by Monsters of the Same Rarity are Consistent: This is probably a case of good luck in the writing, but many of the feats that we've been able to track for monsters tend to line up by the rarity. Maybe creators ARE powerscalers after all.
Warzard throws punches at Supersonic Speeds, Melaburn and Melagios both can vaporize small amounts of water on contact, and Morigannon can trigger tremors (though of unknown intensity, but lowballing is consistent) and hammer off trees at their base. All of these feats are in a general 9-B range from a collection of monsters that share a lot of similar attributes including their Rarity of 2 Stars.

Fights Between Monsters of Different Rarities Tend to be Stomps: A majority of the fights we get to see in the series end in pretty harsh stomps when the characters are not in the same rarity level. Awoken Zeus (7 Star) defeats Ace's entire team including a Leviathan (5 Stars) with a single attack in Episode 24. Calamity Immortal Dragon, Cursed Wyrm (7 Stars) oneshots Idia (5 Star) without much effort in Episode 48. Awoken Zeus (7 Star) oneshots a whole group, including Hades (5 Star) in episode 49.

Conversely, monsters with much closer rarity values tend to have much longer and more even fights. Such as Ace's team including the Leviathan (5 Stars) in a battle with base form Horus (5 Stars) in Episode 26. Or Ace using the Horus (5 Star) armor again Klein's Hades (5 Star) armor in Episode 33. Also Ace using the Flame Deity, Falcon Horus (6 Stars) armor to fight Sun Deity, Ra (6 Stars) in Episode 67.

Monsters of Similar Rarity Act Will Fight Together in Dungeons: Dungeons in-game will be set up with waves of monsters. While major characters or high-level foes will tend to fight alone as bosses, weaker enemies will often fight in groups. And following the trend we're setting here, the monsters that team up will normally be a similar rarity rating, even for monsters that otherwise are not of the same series and have no other connections.

Here we see a Black Knight with a Blood Demon, both 3 Star Monsters. Here we have Black Knights with Mist Chimeras, both 3 Star Monsters. Here is a Marine Goblin with a Water Pengdra, both 2 Star Monsters. Here there is an Armor Ogre with a Taur Demon, both 3 Star monsters. And here we have the Beach Café Waitress, High Water Ninja with the Shaved Ice Specialist, Frost Demon, both 4 Star Monsters.

Captain Watari Implies that Rarity and Power Correlate: We get a quote from Captain Watari himself when talking about the Dragon King Avalon: "He was the most powerful Dragonoid that had ever lived, more powerful than all but the rarest of dragons".

Captain Watari is the leader of the Zed City Rangers, a collection of Dragon Tamers who regularly fight and research monsters of all types. They are probably one of the most reliable sources of information in the entire franchise, and he chose to explain that the only dragons more powerful than Avalon were 'the rarest'. The Zed City Rangers keep pokedex-style entries on all monster species, and with these entries they also document the monster's rarity rating, meaning that's very likely what Watari means when he says this.

What's the Point of Wasting so Much Space in this CRT, Again?: I don't want anyone confused or on a different page when I explain which characters should scale to which going forward, because I think there's enough evidence, and enough variety of evidence, that the series makes a distinct correlation in the rarity rating and power in this verse. Evolutions that increase power increase rating, monsters that are similar or fight together evenly often have the same rating, monsters that stomp one another are often in different ratings, and a very reliable character implies it when explaining the scope of a character's power.

2. Actual Upgrades, Idia and the 5+ Star Monsters

Alright, got that assault of the eyes over with, lets actually talk about the upgrades. These should be so much simpler because the feats have already been checked and accepted.

Right now we have a lot of the high tiers scale from the statement that Vritra 'Annihilated an entire world', however this has been controversial due to the lack of visuals and extra context for a good destruction value. So instead lets talk about Idia.

In Episode 49, Idia became a part of a compass that fired a beam of light into space that created a whole collection of new stars to teleport the cast to their next plot important location. Puzzle & Dragons is a painfully stupid franchise sometimes, roll with it.

This is the calc for the AP value that would require = 1.08167x 10^43 Joules - High 4-C, Large Star level

This is the calc for how fast that beam would need to be = 33933615.08c - Massively FTL+

Because Idia's element is Light, its most basic energy attacks are firing light beams just like the ones used in this feat, so these should be attributed to Idia's normal attacks. The speed feat is likely not applicable for movement, but it is applicable for attack speed (since it's the speed of the light) and likely for reaction and combat speeds. Characters dodge each other's elemental attacks all the time, but just as an example: In Episode 85 we see Jest, a character who was already superior to Idia but has also absorbed the power of one of his equals Daphness AND the power of Satan (Roll with it), fire barrages of Light elemental attacks that our heroes are able to dodge and fly through to attack him back. By all logic in the franchise, Jest's Light element should be able to recreate the speeds Idia's have, if not greatly superior.

But are these calcs consistent for higher level characters, do they have other feats involving celestial bodies and MFTL speeds? Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer: For AP, as stated above Vritra has a statement of annihilating and entire world, though the context is debated, and Zuoh also has a statement of destroying worlds but similarly the scope and context is unclear. Azathoth and it's evolved form Azathoth, the Primal Chaos are both depicted as being large enough to eat an Earth-like planet, its moon, and a gas giant similar to Jupiter. Conquest Bow Steel Star Goddess, Meridionalis claims that one of the benefits of using a bow over other weapons is that you will be able to 'pierce stars from afar', implying that not only can she and her brother shoot through stars but that benefit is the range, not the power. In Episode 67 while having mild back and forth with Ace, Sun Deity Ra teleports away in a huff and it is suddenly mid-day when it had previously been the very crack of dawn, implying either a rotation of the Earth or a movement of the Sun (I have no explanation for why this even happens, just trying to show off, maybe scare Ace away?).

As for speed, Vritra traveled to a new planet after destroying the one in its dex entry, and while we don't have a timeframe for this it would still require interstellar travel to do that. Zuoh also needs to be capable of flying that far and long as well considering he has planet hopped numerous times, though likewise time is never mentioned. And in Aqualily Goddess of Bliss, Uruka's chapter of the Heroine story, she is tasked with finding a weapon of her own, to do this she chooses to travel to and 'stroll' a nebula to search for a weapon or inspiration, and later leaves the nebula entirely to follow Navi's advice. The nearest Nebula to Earth is the Helix Neabula which is arround 700 lightyears away, and wikipedia cites that nebulas can be recorded as being hundreds of lightyears in dimeter. Uruka is a very lazy character, rejecting a hammer or bow as a weapon because both would require 'too much effort', yet she seems to travel hundreds of lightyears in this quest pretty casually, even calling it a 'stroll'.

So the speed feats don't have timeframes, making them more difficult to quantify, but considering the sheer size of distances that need to be crossed I believe it is still supportive that MFTL speeds are not unreasonable for the verse.

But who scales? Obviously Awoken Zeus for being the other half of Idia's feat in the first place, and Calamity Immortal Dragon, Cursed Wyrm for oneshotting Idia with ease, and any character who relates to those two. But as pointed out by the rarity explanation above, I believe that any monster that is 5 Stars or above should scale or upscale in general, so most of the major characters, bosses, and gods would scale to this feat.

3. Daphness and 8+ Star Monsters

Moving up the food chain a bit, the Dragon Caller Ancients are a group of very important and very powerful characters in the franchise, they sit even above some of the lesser Gods and treat even a god like Awoken Zeus like a pawn/soldier.

In Episode 84 we get a little bit of a taste of that power with a feat that I think may be very relevant for getting a better number than just upscaling. To try to contain Dragon Caller Jest and stop his attempt to take over the world, Daphness essentially BFR's him into a pocket dimension by absorbing him into a dark energy ball/portal.

The place he's taken to extends out to the horizon, includes clouds in the sky, and we see a light source beyond the clouds illuminating it all. I think you know where this is going, this seems like it might be an Earth-Sun pocket dimension.

However, there's no statement that Daphness actually even makes this location, instead Jest recognizes the technique and comments that he's 'inside of her'. So this location is contained within Daphness and Jest's physical body has been taken to this pocket dimension within her.

Daphness, the other Dragon Caller Ancients, and characters on their level already should upscale pretty decently above Idia, and an Earth-Sun space still falls within High 4-C so it would be consistent with the upgrades, however I am unsure if 'containing' the space counts as an AP feat. But the possibility seems relevant and consistent enough that it should be on the CRT to be reviewed regardless.

4. Myr and 10 Star Monsters

This is almost the same as the section above, just a bigger pocket dimension.

In Episode 47 we're introduced to Burning Time Dragonbound, Myr. Much like Daphness, she has a pocket dimension that she can take people to that is 'within' her, it can be accessed by her powers as she's released from her egg, when she returns to her egg she takes the entire space with her, and within it she can very casually make things at her will like summoning her trademark gears and clock under Ace.

Unlike Daphness however, Myr is a much more powerful Draganoid than even her and the other Dragon Caller Ancients, and her pocket dimension is filled with a space of seemingly endless stars. If you've powerscaled for a while, that statement probably shouldn't have shocked you, this is where all pocket dimension feats eventually lead. If valid that would be a 4-A rating.

Again though, nothing ever says she made this space. So I am unsure like above if 'containing' is enough for an AP rating or not.

5. Terra Dragon, the God Tier

10 Stars is the highest monsters with known ratings have ever gone, but there is one character who is 'unrated' and reigns supreme over every other character...Because they made every other character, and can pretty casually kill them all any time it wants. And has done so before.

Terra Dragon is the highest known cosmic being in the franchise, and acts as a 'creator god' for the characters of the verse which we meet in Episode 88 and Episode 89. It has destroyed the 'main' planet of the verse 3 times already in history, each time having populated it with different types of beings until it reached the 4th planet that has a mix of species instead. This involved killing off the population and recreating them on the new planet. The final battle against Terra Dragon was a no-contest stomp, with Ace, Lance, King and all of their monsters never managing to do a scratch to it and being one-shot with ease, including when Ace and Lance used their combo power to give themselves a multiplier for 'every living being'

Ace was forced the plead and reason with Terra Dragon, and only got it to give them another chance rather than killing them all and just starting from scratch.

So Terra Dragon made pretty much every character, could kill every character casually and just do it again, and fighting our main cast was completely futile. Whatever rating is settled for the strongest monsters above, Terra Dragon simply would upscale from their power as an 'at least'.

However, there is also an interesting line of dialogue that King has while describing the Terra Dragon and what it really is, and considering King has lived with and researched the Terra Dragon for years he's a very reliable source.

He claims that what they're fighting is not the 'real' Terra Dragon, but only a form it's using to interact with them. The true Terra Dragon is: "The Entire Space, Everything that you can see". I believe this statement is trying to convey that the true Terra Dragon is the universe itself. However it is only one statement, and Terra Dragon is very enigmatic and doesn't do anything other than focusing on making a perfect planet, so there isn't much more to back this up.

My proposal for Terra Dragon is an 'At Least' rating that is whatever rating the strongest monster has, as Terra Dragon can create and defeat any of them with ease, and a 'Possibly 3-A' rating via King's statement about it's true form.

6. Conclusion

Wrapping this up in a nice TLDR:

  1. The Rarity System is Very Consistent and Should be Used for Comparing Characters
  2. Idia's Feat Should Upgrade it and all 5 Star Monsters and Above to High 4-C with MFTL+ Attack/Reaction/Combat Speeds
  3. Daphness' Feat May Upgrade all 8 Star Monsters and Above to a Higher High 4-C Based on an Earth-Sun Distance
  4. Myr's Feat May Upgrade all 10 Star Monsters to 4-A
  5. Terra Dragon Should Upscale Beyond the Strongest Monsters and have a 'Possibly 3-A' Rating Based on King's Statement
 
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Thank you guys for giving it a look over.

But a bump to also get some staff feedback?
 
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I would contact some random staff members at this point, this verse has no staff actually into this series otherwise.
 
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Probably for the best, I always putz around on messaging staff, always hope they'll just check in without prodding. I need to break that habit...
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Looking good from a glance; I'm still iffy on Supersonic punch calc; I know it's specifically stated to be Supersonic punches so fine with considering that legit speed, but I have a bad feeling some other calc group members are going to accuse us of jumping the shark with that example. But looking good otherwise.
 
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It is a directly stated speed, and not one that comes from any sort of calc, so I was under the impression that wasn't calc stacking. The same way we sometimes get KE values for large characters with confirmed speeds.

Thankfully, if it is a problem and can't be used, it was only supportive in the first place. The tree hammering feat already gets a better value and was kinda casual.

Thank you so much for giving it a look over, too!
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I mean, even things like throwing a hammer at mach 5000 speed to tag a super fast ship is considered Calc Stacking by our KE page. Basically, an object has to be at least 500 kg for it to be allowed to put in a KE calculator. If his fist or forearm was that heavy, it would have been fine.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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It was back when the updates to this page. And it comes from this bullet point.
  • A certain character moves at a certain speed while carrying an object, that would require superhuman strength to be carried.
Superhuman lifting strength starts at Class 1, which has a baseline of 500 kg.
 
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I did not know that was a standard, that's news to me...

The original calc even got at least one approval from the calc team, perhaps the situation needs to be reviewed again?

Regardless...Thankfully a calc with a backup anyways.
 
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Another bump to try to catch some more attention...Why do I always pick niche series?
 
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I can try giving it another round. Always feel like a pest going right to them, was hoping I could catch someone's eye by spamming this over and over and just hoping someone will take the bait
 

DarkGrath

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I find all of this pretty solid, though I admittedly find point 5 (Possibly 3-A for Terra Dragon) to be slightly questionable. If the only statement we have to support the idea that Terra Dragon is the universe is someone stating that he is "everything we can see", then I'm not sure that'd even be enough of a justification for a "possibly" rating. It's a major extrapolation from very little information, though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if it makes more sense in the context.

Everything else seems good to me.
 
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Honestly, that is the whole context pretty much. King makes that claim when giving the quick exposition dump for Terra Dragon right at the end of the series.

By that point he's spent a good number of years just being with Terra Dragon, and understands it really well (explaining a good chunk of Terra Dragon's history and how and why it does what it does) before making his claim that Terra Dragon's true form is 'everything we can see'.

I wasn't sure how to interpret that other than being the universe as 'everything'. He oneshots an entire group of the high tiers casually, and wiped out entire generations of these characters he wasn't happy with, so he is at least 'far higher', but that's the best we've got on him for solid information.
 

Qawsedf234

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While the ratings look good, a lot of the non-imgur links are broken or are denied on my end. So I can't give a proper sign off at the moment.
 
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Oh dang, it's the anime hosting websites I was using. Seems they've been taken down.

I'm searching for mirrors as we speak for the episodes.
 
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I attempted to repair the links, however something odd has happened. They've immediately gone back to being dead on the redirect from the forum to the anime site. I have no idea why or what is causing this.

The website in question is "*************", and it is to my knowledge the only site that currently is still hosting the complete series.

Thankfully the episodes aren't taken down, so the evidence is still there, but for some reason the site's name become '%2A' repeated several times. You could replace that section of the url with the "*************", though that's a bit tedious...

EDIT: Okay, so "gogoanime" "." "tv" becomes a bunch of asterisks when typed out too, is something censoring the website on the forum?
 

DarkGrath

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I believe various anime streaming services are blocked on the forum due to concerns over the legality and copyright of the sources.
 
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Oh dang...that's understandable, but makes my job here just a touch more complicated.

PAD's anime aren't exactly big successes, the dub mirror doesn't include the entire series, and less than half of the scaling-relevant episodes. Plus many of the episodes aren't on Youtube to my knowledge for safer linking. This gogoanime site is hosting pretty much almost all of the most vital information for this CRT.

Any good work arounds or suggestions to make the proper sources easier to view for you guys? I'm not sure just screenshots are good enough, since a lot of my evidence is characters interacting in fights and the ease of certain battles compared to others.
 

Ogbunabali

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Everything seems fine, though I disagree with giving tiers based on the pocket dimension since the only thing seeming to use as justification is single off handed statement as "I'm inside you". So I have to disagree with the 4-A rating.

The 3-A is also kind of dodgy, but the dragon is apparently a creator god type character and the scan is kinda direct, so I guess could be fine with a possibly 3-A.
 

Qawsedf234

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I guess possibly 3-A can work. With the base levels just being upscaled from the 4-C feat.

The 4-A feat I'm unsure with using in general if there's no evidence that it'd actually scale to their offensive power output.
 
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That's definitely why I put it as a 'may scale', I couldn't find any other examples on the wiki to know if 'containing' a pocket dimension had any sort of translation to AP or potential energy, it's only ever used for BFR or some manipulation to create things in there.

So High 4-C upscaling based on the star creation then, and a tentative 'possibly 3-A' for Terra Dragon?
 
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Alright, seems pretty reasonable. Disappointed that different Monster Ranks won't have their own feats but that can't be helped. I was hoping to avoid scaling chains too much but gotta work with what you've got.

Anything else? Need more input? Or can this be applied?
 
I know nothing about Puzzle & Dragons, but this seemed pretty good.

I'm pretty sure Kid Icarus is 4-A because Hades's heart is a pocket dimension containing a starry sky, so maybe the 4-A feat could work.
 

Qawsedf234

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As long as they can scale to their creation feats they can get the 4-A rating. That or a possibly one.
 
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Checked the Hades justification, I'm not a Kid Icarus supporter so I'm not sure I know the full context, but we claim that he created and 'maintains' that heart that has the starry pocket dimension in it.

We have no clear evidence that Daphness or Myr created their pocket dimensions, but we do know they're inside of them. So if containing it within yourself physically counts as maintaining, that might be more grounds for the higher rating. Otherwise we may just use the stars thing and just upscale.

To clarify the BFR feat a bit better, Jest is the one absorbed into Daphness's pocket reality, and he's the one that comments 'I'm inside of you'. His physical body is taken, so it's not some sort of soul, mind, astral projecting thing, Jest is sealed entirely and when he's released his body returns too. Jest is in basically every way Daphness' equal, they're partners in their jobs and peers in their power, so if anyone is reliable about what Daphness can actually do, he's probably the man, so being 'inside of you' is probably very literal.

Again though, they are only containing these pocket dimensions, I have no idea if that's the same as 'maintaining', or any other useable justification.
 
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Possibly sounds reasonable, especially since we only have this bit of information to work with.

Formatting though, for characters that upscale from the High 4-C, but would scale to Daphness' pocket dimension is viable, would it just be a 'Possibly Higher', due to the fact it wouldn't change tier, just be higher in High 4-C?
 
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