Puzzle and Dragons CRT: Retconning Reincarnations

[XitSign]

Man it's been a while. The PAD update project to really clean the verse up started all the way back in October of 2020, and I only just now got done applying the last of the changes to the last of the pages. Now they're all fully updated, neat and tidy, organized with cleaner images and all sorts of extra references and citations.

I sure hope there's no major retcon to any of the evolution systems that will throw the scaling out of wack or anything.

...Anyways, lets talk about Reincarnation Evolution, the changes made to the mechanic, and what this is going to end up affecting. It's honestly not much, but it's not ideal either.

1. Housekeeping

Really quick reminders to make sure we're all on the same page because this isn't a popular verse:

1. Monsters in PAD are rated mainly by their rarity/star count. Monsters of the same value are similar in power and scale to each other. CRT for that here.

2. Monsters become 'greater than the simple sum of their parts' when they fuse together, which is where the fusion values come from for Rarity Levels without feats and rely solely on upscaling. CRT for that here.

Both of those are majorly important to what we're talking about here, because most of this CRT is the fact that an entire type of monster has had their standards in-universe changed.

2. Reincarnations

So the 'Reincarnation Evolution' type of Evolution used to not be special. At all. It acted as basically a 'form change' where most Reincarnations were either equal or only slightly stronger than their non-reincarnated counterparts. From there Reincarnated monsters could sometimes even keep evolving, which made them only stronger than before.

This is no longer the case. A recent update has reworked the system so that 'Reincarnation' forms for monsters are no longer equal to the monster they Reincarnated from, but instead the monster that is at the base of the evolution tree. Basically a total reset of power. (Which, does technically make sense for what 'Reincarnation' means...)

An example I'll use to demonstrate is Hera. Hera's 'Ultimate' form "Divine Queen Hera" is the form that reincarnates into "Hera-Nyx". Both used to be 8-Star monsters, with Hera-Nyx being: "Somewhat superior, but still comparable, to" Divine Queen Hera.

However, that is now no longer the case. With the wave of new updates to the system, Hera-Nyx is now a 6-Star Monster, equal to her original form, Hera. She has been reset to her 'base' rather than getting progressively stronger.

And this is the case for every Reincarnation. They now no longer upscale, but instead reset to their monster family's base form.

3. So, who needs their scaling updated?

More than I'd like after how long I've been spending on these profiles.

Super Dyrad - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic

Reincarnated Burning Phoenix Knight, Homura - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic, Super Mystic Flame Knight - 7 Stars to 4 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+

Reincarnated Torrential Fenrir Knight, Kamui - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic, Super Mystic Ice Knight - 7 Stars to 4 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+

Reincarnated Ancient Dragon Knight, Zeal - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic, Super Mystic Stone Knight - 7 Stars to 4 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+

Reincarnated Godly Knight of the Sky, Verche - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic, Super Mystic Light Knight - 7 Stars to 4 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+

Reincarnated Chaos Dragon Knight, Voice - 6 Stars to 3 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to 8-C and Supersonic, Super Mystic Dark Knight - 7 Stars to 4 Stars, High 4-C and MFTL+ needs downgraded to At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+

Reincarnated Vritra - 7 Stars to 5 Stars, High 4-C remains unchanged just scales lower, Super Reincarnated Vritra - 8 Stars to 6 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C

Zeus Verse - 8 Stars to 6 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C, World's Omnipotent God, Zeus Verse - 9 Stars to 7 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C

Hera-Nyx - 8 Stars to 6 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C, Devil Star Divine Queen, Hera-Nyx - 9 Stars to 7 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C

Catastrophic Thunder Dragonbound, Typhon - 8 Stars to 6 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C

Bewitching Earth Phantom Demon, Ilm - 8 Stars to 6 Stars, At least High 4-C, likely 4-B needs downgraded to High 4-C

4. Hey, wait, isn't Hera-Nyx important for 9 Star scaling?

Yeah, that's one of the more unfortunate parts about this. Because Hera-Nyx's Star Rating, and by extension Devil Star Divine Queen, Hera-Nyx's Star Rating, were lowered by this change, Devil Star Divine Queen, Hera-Nyx should no longer be the 9-Star fusion value that other characters scale to. And unfortunately, no other character has the same fusion value as her, either, so this means 9 Star monsters and 10 Star Monsters will need a downgrade based on the next best fusion value. It's not a HUGE downgrade, but for accuracy's sake it needs to be done.

Our next runner ups in fusion power for 9 Star monsters are a trio of very similar fusions:

Flame Pillar God of the Rising Sun, Amen (9 Star) = A fusion of Flame Pillar God of the Scorching Sun, Amen (8 Star) + Flame Pillar God of the Rising Sun, Amen's Gem (8 Star) + Ancient Tri-God Mask (8 Star) + Huge Fire Gem (8 Star) + Huge Light Gem (8 Star) + Keeper of Gold (6 Star) = 5x 8-Star Monsters + 1x 6-Star Monster = (5 x 2.3364072 x 10^45) + 6.49002 x 10^43 = 1.1746936 x 10^46 4-B

Aqua Pillar Goddess of Clear Air, Mut (9 Star) = A fusion of Aqua Pillar Goddess of Air Mastery, Mut (8 Star) + Aqua Pillar Goddess of Clear Air, Mut's Gem (8 Star) + Ancient Tri-God Mask (8 Star) + Huge Water Gem (8 Star) + Huge Light Gem (8 Star) + Ancient Blue Sacred Mask (6 Star) = 5x 8-Star Monsters + 1x 6-Star Monster = (5 x 2.3364072 x 10^45) + 6.49002 x 10^43 = 1.1746936 x 10^46 4-B

Earth Pillar God of the Soaring Moon, Khonsu (9 Star) = A fusion of Earth Pillar God of the Traversing Moon, Khonsu (8 Star) + Earth Pillar God of the Soaring Moon, Khonsu's Gem (8 Star) + Ancient Tri-God Mask (8 Star) + Huge Wood Gem (8 Star) + Huge Dark Gem (8 Star) + Ancient Green Sacred Mask (6 Star) = 5x 8-Star Monsters + 1x 6-Star Monster = (5 x 2.3364072 x 10^45) + 6.49002 x 10^43 = 1.1746936 x 10^46 4-B

This also has the domino effect that the values for the 10 Star monsters need updated as well:

Stellar Dragon of the 6 Skies, Hexazeon (10 Star) = Hexazeon (9 Star), Unleashed Knight Dragon King, Nordis (8 Star), Yellow Augite, Magatama of Yonder (6 Star), Purple Augite, Mirror of Eternal Darkness (6 Star), Green Augite, Holy Sword of Jade (6 Star), Diamond Dragon Fruit (8 Star) = 1x 9 Star Monster, 2x 8 Star Monsters, 3x 6 Star Monsters = 1.1746936 x 10^46 + (2 x 2.3364072 x 10^45) + (3 x 6.49002 x 10^43) = 1.6614451 x 10^46 4-B

Not at all drastically different from the current scaling, so no one who still scales to these levels are getting their ratings changed, only minor downgrading of the values.

5. Conclusion

Very simple in the wrap up and the TLDR:

1. Any character who is a 'reincarnation' needs to be downgraded to their base form's scaling

2. 9 Star monsters now scale to Amen, Mut, and Khonsu

3. 9 and 10 Star monsters now scale slightly lower, but keep their current ratings.

 

[Bobsican]

Looks fine.

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[Rustobal10]

I don't know if the rarities of all monster are all accurate because they can wrong due to being out of dates such as how Gungho lowers super reincarnated pantheons from 9 star to 6 star(Mega awoken godfests should also be lowered as well but its still ironically 9 star). The 7 star godfests such as the witches, dracoblades, sanctuary gods, royal gods, and the robo tranformations however scale above all of those you've listed. Reincarnated Gilles Legato and Heavenstar/Hellstar Hexazeon are even more stronger than before.

 

[XitSign]

I don't know if the rarities of all monster are all accurate because they can wrong due to being out of dates such as how Gungho lowers super reincarnated pantheons from 9 star to 6 star(Mega awoken godfests should also be lowered as well but its still ironically 9 star). The 7 star godfests such as the witches, dracoblades, sanctuary gods, royal gods, and the robo tranformations however scale above all of those you've listed. Reincarnated Gilles Legato and Heavenstar/Hellstar Hexazeon are even more stronger than before.

I have no idea what you're getting at, you're kinda running-on your argument here.

Why would any of those characters be 'above all of those' that I've listed? You haven't linked any actual argument or reasoning here, just listened a bunch of characters.

We've had a very important character liken rarity to power, many feats of power being escalated through rarity, have the family evolutionary comparisons, monster grouping tendency, the statements from Ignis on fusion and it's relationship with rarity, as well as feats, fights, and supporting evidence from the anime, plus the 'creator intent' based on the in-game scoring system. There's a lot of evidence that scaling and power is simply based on rarity, and this update to the reincarnation system is just Gungho retconning which characters and which systems are where in the pecking order.

 

[XitSign]

Also, both a bump and a small update:

An upcomming character (already released for Japanese servers but not for English speaking servers it seems) 'Big Bang' will probably make the downgrade outdated already, as it turns out.

Big Bang's first evolution is the same fusion value as Devil Star Divine Queen, Hera-Nyx's, meaning it can replace her in the scaling chain and keep the original value.

Likewise, its second evolution's evolution will seemingly have a superior fusion value to Stellar Dragon of the 6 Skies, Hexazeon, which would be a 10 Star upgrade. Not by much, but technically an upgrade.

I don't know how to handle this though, because we only have the Japanese scans for Big Bang so far, they might not even be called 'Big Bang' by the time they get an official translation. So I don't know how/if we should apply this information yet...

 

[Bobsican]

It's an official release and all, so it'd be usable.
If the name becomes outdated it could just be edited accordingly.

 

[XitSign]

It's an official release and all, so it'd be usable.

My only concern is that we don't have offical English translations yet, so we're using unofficial translations for the name of Big Bang and it's forms. I don't know if that will be frowned upon or not...

The images are pretty cut and dry, Big Bang is fusing with 5 Huge Gems (both fusions), which have an 8 star values AND evidence that they can release that energy in combat (...somehow) so it should be useable if it gets the O.K. to use them/when we get english scans.

 

[Bobsican]

Unofficial translations tend to get more priority in here given that official translations tend to get stuff differently for our purposes, so long it's not a machine translation, of course, otherwise it'd be best to wait if you aren't sure.

 

[XitSign]

Unofficial translations tend to get more priority in here given that official translations tend to get stuff differently for our purposes, so long it's not a machine translation, of course, otherwise it'd be best to wait if you aren't sure.

It'd be odd to do a downgrade just to undo it knowing the info is comming.

But, the value difference is barely over a 1x different so it's not like it's really going to affect anything too drastically, so honestly if we choose to wait I'll lose no sleep.

Big Bang's title is also allegedly a 'dimension creator' so that might yield something that makes the fusion upgrade redundant...but you know how character titles can be, it might amount to nothing in the end.

 

[Rustobal10]

Big Bang is definitely rated 2-C due to the universe being on his back stated by Gungho staff and has shown to blow it up when reaching his hp to about 20% after charging his attack. Or possibly 1-A since he's the zero dimensional creator that surpasses all dimensions based on the Dimensional Guide arena being that of being higher than Mille from Fourth Dimension Inspector(Low 2-C to 2-A) and Yurisha from Multidimensional Peacock(1-C to 1-B).

 

[XitSign]

Big Bang is definitely rated 2-C due to the universe being on his back stated by Gungho staff and has shown to blow it up when reaching his hp to about 20% after charging his attack. Or possibly 1-A since he's the zero dimensional creator that surpasses all dimensions based on the Dimensional Guide arena being that of being higher than Mille from Fourth Dimension Inspector(Low 2-C to 2-A) and Yurisha from Multidimensional Peacock(1-C to 1-B).

Not exactly the point of this CRT, but do you have citations for any of that? I haven't seen any information for Big Bang's destruction of a universe, or anything for the dimensions being superior to one another or characters scaling to them.

 

[Rustobal10]

I have no idea what you're getting at, you're kinda running-on your argument here.

Why would any of those characters be 'above all of those' that I've listed? You haven't linked any actual argument or reasoning here, just listened a bunch of characters.

We've had a very important character liken rarity to power, many feats of power being escalated through rarity, have the family evolutionary comparisons, monster grouping tendency, the statements from Ignis on fusion and it's relationship with rarity, as well as feats, fights, and supporting evidence from the anime, plus the 'creator intent' based on the in-game scoring system. There's a lot of evidence that scaling and power is simply based on rarity, and this update to the reincarnation system is just Gungho retconning which characters and which systems are where in the pecking order.

Dude, they are godfests exclusives which contains the cost of 20 magic stones. They are shown to one shot any of these old 10 star dungeons.

Using PADZ and PADX informations aren't gonna help as they are released years ago back when rarities were consistent. Now they are becoming inconsistent due to Gungho forgetting to retcon the old monsters even though reincarnated monsters are lowered to 5 star. For example, why are awoken pantheons higher than reincarnated ones?

 

[XitSign]

Dude, they are godfests exclusives which contains the cost of 20 magic stones. They are shown to one shot any of these old 10 star dungeons.

Using PADZ and PADX informations aren't gonna help as they are released years ago back when rarities were consistent. Now they are becoming inconsistent due to Gungho forgetting to retcon the old monsters even though reincarnated monsters are lowered to 5 star. For example, why are awoken pantheons higher than reincarnated ones?

In-game oneshotting isn't acceptable evidence for the wiki. Yeah, they've power crept the game, but we can't scale based on that. And the cost of real world money to roll the characters is also probably not an acceptable reason for the wiki either.

There's no reason to not still all of this information from in-universe sources, especially since it's not 'inconsistent' if that's just how the creators are choosing to reorganize the characters. Reincarnations now "reset", that does make sense based on what the word 'reincarnated' means. Awokens are stronger than the 'base', simple as that.

I'm not seeing any reason to suddenly start scaling characters differently, and by what metric we would even do so

 

[Rustobal10]

Not exactly the point of this CRT, but do you have citations for any of that? I haven't seen any information for Big Bang's destruction of a universe, or anything for the dimensions being superior to one another or characters scaling to them.

He's the creator of the zeroth dimension, after all. He should be rated outerversal due to the creating it that leads to the concepts of the high-low dimensions. And it definitely scales above 4D Inspector and Multidimensional Peacock as the dungeons hits much harder and the enemies are based on super reincarnated and mega awoken monsters which proves the layers are higher than those two.

 

[XitSign]

He's the creator of the zeroth dimension, after all. He should be rated outerversal due to the creating it that leads to the concepts of the high-low dimensions. And it definitely scales above 4D Inspector and Multidimensional Peacock as the dungeons hits much harder and the enemies are based on super reincarnated and mega awoken monsters which proves the layers are higher than those two.

We don't scale by titles without supporting evidence/proof. Zues has a key that's called 'omnipotent' but he's clearly not even the strongest character in the verse.

Dungeons being harder is game design and mechanics, it doesn't prove the dimensions are superior, or even that anyone scales to the dimensions themselves...

Both of these suffer from 'flowery language', we need supporting evidence and statements, because names and titles can be misleading

 

[Rustobal10]

In-game oneshotting isn't acceptable evidence for the wiki. Yeah, they've power crept the game, but we can't scale based on that. And the cost of real world money to roll the characters is also probably not an acceptable reason for the wiki either.

There's no reason to not still all of this information from in-universe sources, especially since it's not 'inconsistent' if that's just how the creators are choosing to reorganize the characters. Reincarnations now "reset", that does make sense based on what the word 'reincarnated' means. Awokens are stronger than the 'base', simple as that.

I'm not seeing any reason to suddenly start scaling characters differently, and by what metric we would even do so

That doesn't change the fact that they're godfests rated by 7 to 8 stars. Which is why they cost 20 MS rather than 10 due to being higher rarities. And they are shown to be tied within the giant gem materials. Where as descended loots monsters like Amen, Mut, and Khonsu are only tied to huge gem materials.

So are you saying that reincarnated monsters are stronger than awoken or base pantheons regardless of the rarity due to being reset?

 

[XitSign]

That doesn't change the fact that they're godfests rated by 7 to 8 stars. Which is why they cost 20 MS rather than 10 due to being higher rarities. And they are shown to be tied within the giant gem materials. Where as descended loots monsters like Amen, Mut, and Khonsu are only tied to huge gem materials.

So are you saying that reincarnated monsters are stronger than awoken or base pantheons regardless of the rarity due to being reset?

I still don't see at all what that proves, and also what it disproves about actual in-universe feats and statements. That's still real world money values, which doesn't seem to translate to more lore-based scaling that the wiki focuses on. And Giant Gems Vs. Huge? I'm confused what you mean about that.

No, I am saying that the reincarnations should be rated where their new ratings are. Base reincarnations should scale to their respective base forms, everything else we have points to Gungho making this retcon to claim they're equals, but reincarnations are just more versatile.

 

[Rustobal10]

We don't scale by titles without supporting evidence/proof. Zues has a key that's called 'omnipotent' but he's clearly not even the strongest character in the verse.

Dungeons being harder is game design and mechanics, it doesn't prove the dimensions are superior, or even that anyone scales to the dimensions themselves...

Both of these suffer from 'flowery language', we need supporting evidence and statements, because names and titles can be misleading

What makes you think the title means nothing? Why call it if it doesn't show any essence? Being called omnipotent is different as it refers to how greatly powerful you are. Such as infinity in other characters, but its not truly precise.

Powercreeps weren't my main argument. MD4 has stronger evolved enemies and it attacks more than all of those mystic dimension levels which proves the layers are higher. As you can see, Big Bang has a final move called Liberation of Universe where he charges his attack and blows the entire universe when low hp.

There's no such thing as flowery language but that usually refers to hyperboles that don't show it on picture. Mille also controls time space which puts her 2-C and Big Bang stands on the void.

 

[XitSign]

What makes you think the title means nothing? Why call it if it doesn't show any essence? Being called omnipotent is different as it refers to how greatly powerful you are. Such as infinity in other characters, but its not truly precise.

Powercreeps weren't my main argument. MD4 has stronger evolved enemies and it attacks more than all of those mystic dimension levels which proves the layers are higher. As you can see, Big Bang has a final move called Liberation of Universe where he charges his attack and blows the entire universe when low hp.

There's no such thing as flowery language but that usually refers to hyperboles that don't show it on picture. Mille also controls time space which puts her 2-C and Big Bang stands on the void.

That's just a standard of the wiki. Titles can be flowery, meant to incite great awe and may not be fully literal. And no...Omnipotent is not different in this regard. Zeus' title is proven false by not being limitless in his power, he has failings and superiors.

That proves it's a tougher LOCATION to be in, but it doesn't prove dimensional superiority from a layered perspective. It can just be a universe of equal dimensionality than a normal one but contain stronger monsters than the norm. That's no good for Tier 1 scaling at least without more. And I have seen the animation, it's very cool and is a massivd explosion, but we need citations for it to be for sure Universal.

Flowery Language exists, absolutely. Names can just by hyperbolic, we need as much information and citations as possible. Links would be greatly appreciated to prove all of this. Also Mille is the 'Keeper of Time', that doesn't fof sure mean Tier 2, just time related abilities. I don't think we've seen her do anything on the tier 2 scale of power. And citation that Big Bang interacts with the Void? And that it's scaling relevant?

 

[Rustobal10]

I still don't see at all what that proves, and also what it disproves about actual in-universe feats and statements. That's still real world money values, which doesn't seem to translate to more lore-based scaling that the wiki focuses on. And Giant Gems Vs. Huge? I'm confused what you mean about that.

No, I am saying that the reincarnations should be rated where their new ratings are. Base reincarnations should scale to their respective base forms, everything else we have points to Gungho making this retcon to claim they're equals, but reincarnations are just more versatile.

They are. Valkyrie-Ciel, Athena-Non, Zeus-Giga, and Hera-Luna for example are more powerful than any of the older versions. If you play Hera annihilation, Hera-Luna is put at the boss floor which is superior to all other versions of her. Magic stones are also real in lore like the rainbow ghost evo holding one for instance. And Huge gems are new evo materials required for certain higher rarity monsters and Giant ones are much more powerful.

Then why would a 6 star super reincarnated pantheon require a diamond dragon fruit or a 7 star evo gem to evolve?

 

[Rustobal10]

That's just a standard of the wiki. Titles can be flowery, meant to incite great awe and may not be fully literal. And no...Omnipotent is not different in this regard. Zeus' title is proven false by not being limitless in his power, he has failings and superiors.

That proves it's a tougher LOCATION to be in, but it doesn't prove dimensional superiority from a layered perspective. It can just be a universe of equal dimensionality than a normal one but contain stronger monsters than the norm. That's no good for Tier 1 scaling at least without more. And I have seen the animation, it's very cool and is a massivd explosion, but we need citations for it to be for sure Universal.

Flowery Language exists, absolutely. Names can just by hyperbolic, we need as much information and citations as possible. Links would be greatly appreciated to prove all of this. Also Mille is the 'Keeper of Time', that doesn't fof sure mean Tier 2, just time related abilities. I don't think we've seen her do anything on the tier 2 scale of power. And citation that Big Bang interacts with the Void? And that it's scaling relevant?

I never said he's truly omnipotent. But whatever, just wait for the dungeon to come out and the monster in english. That should be more convenient to see more information.

 

[XitSign]

They are. Valkyrie-Ciel, Athena-Non, Zeus-Giga, and Hera-Luna for example are more powerful than any of the older versions. If you play Hera annihilation, Hera-Luna is put at the boss floor which is superior to all other versions of her. Magic stones are also real in lore like the rainbow ghost evo holding one for instance. And Huge gems are new evo materials required for certain higher rarity monsters and Giant ones are much more powerful.

Then why would a 6 star super reincarnated pantheon require a diamond dragon fruit or a 7 star evo gem to evolve?

Yes they're tougher in-game, but they're designed tougher to the player, that's still not really scaling. And yes, Magic Stones are real in lore, but there's no lore or statement that translates that to power, especially because the REMdras still randomize their summons regardless of payment. And I know what the Huge gems are, as well as the Giants, but I was more confused who you were attributing them to reading it first.

Because a number of fusions create unquantifiable values, likey based on oversight or things like these retcons not changing the original values. They're currently considered unusable for scaling because it becomes circular. In contrast to the overwhelming amounts of evidence to using rarity comparisons and quantifiable fusions.

I never said he's truly omnipotent. But whatever, just wait for the dungeon to come out and the monster in english. That should be more convenient to see more information.

My point is that's an example of the titles being unreliable, possibly just hyperbole and not useful for scaling on their own.

You're linking nothing. I've asked for citations more than once...You're talking about reworking the entirety of our scaling chain, big feats, and some ratings that require high burdens of proof but we really need links if you're going to disagree with the passed CRTs filled with links we already have and push for any massive changes like this.

 

[Rustobal10]

Yes they're tougher in-game, but they're designed tougher to the player, that's still not really scaling. And yes, Magic Stones are real in lore, but there's no lore or statement that translates that to power, especially because the REMdras still randomize their summons regardless of payment. And I know what the Huge gems are, as well as the Giants, but I was more confused who you were attributing them to reading it first.

Because a number of fusions create unquantifiable values, likey based on oversight or things like these retcons not changing the original values. They're currently considered unusable for scaling because it becomes circular. In contrast to the overwhelming amounts of evidence to using rarity comparisons and quantifiable fusions.


My point is that's an example of the titles being unreliable, possibly just hyperbole and not useful for scaling on their own.
You're linking nothing. I've asked for citations more than once...You're talking about reworking the entirety of our scaling chain, big feats, and some ratings that require high burdens of proof but we really need links if you're going to disagree with the passed CRTs filled with links we already have and push for any massive changes like this.

Nope. They scale above the older versions due to its rarity through reincarnated. In that case, why would Zeus-Giga become the final floor after defeating her older versions? It can't be a game mechanic since you minus well just say all dungeons are game mechanics and non existent which is absurd since it involves lore there upon receiving monsters. The rolling rates are just mechanics, but the ranking highlights are not. For huge gems, they are trade fodder through those annihilation descend monster gems where as Godfest gems are trade fodder to Giant Gems. Ironically, I still don't know why Borma or Byuto are still 10 stars when they are only trade fodder to Huge gems. Rarities can be messed up due to the amount of new monsters and specific materials the they're making. Reincarnation monsters still scale above their former evolution. In that case, why would Rushana power up to her reincarnated form. Gungho also said they reset those rarities because they want to keep making more in the future.

I've never provided citations. I'd literally just said to wait until it releases on english. If things don't get clear, then why not just ask or contact GungHo about how powerful is Big Bang? After all, getting evidences from official companies is better than standing nothing like a daydreaming idle.

 

[XitSign]

Nope. They scale above the older versions due to its rarity through reincarnated. In that case, why would Zeus-Giga become the final floor after defeating her older versions? It can't be a game mechanic since you minus well just say all dungeons are game mechanics and non existent which is absurd since it involves lore there upon receiving monsters.

A lot of this doesn't make sense...their rarity is no longer comparable, that's the whole point of this entire CRT. In fact, this change does make Zeus-Giga stronger than Zeus-Verse at their peaks, and COMPARABLE to the strongest Zeuses. It makes Giga being a final boss more inline with their scaling. Which, ontop of that, final bosses range wildly in their own power, and aren't always related to the fights leading up to them, so being a final boss isn't a great metric for scaling anyways.

The rolling rates are just mechanics, but the ranking highlights are not. For huge gems, they are trade fodder through those annihilation descend monster gems where as Godfest gems are trade fodder to Giant Gems. Ironically, I still don't know why Borma or Byuto are still 10 stars when they are only trade fodder to Huge gems. Rarities can be messed up due to the amount of new monsters and specific materials the they're making. Reincarnation monsters still scale above their former evolution. In that case, why would Rushana power up to her reincarnated form. Gungho also said they reset those rarities because they want to keep making more in the future.

Why though? You're not citing actual evidence or sources that 'highlight rates' shouldn't be a decided game mechanic but the 'rolling rates' should. It's still randomized gache all the same, with no extra evidence provided.

Being 'trade fodder' isn't scaling. It's meta gaming and how the characters are interpreted by the player base.

You are just saying reincarnated characters upscale, you aren't citing anything credible. In fact using Rushna as an example is terrible, because not only is her reincarnation still nearly comparable to her ultimate form (meaning their AP isn't that far lower), Rushna is a BUDDHIST god. Her theme is the reincarnation cycle, and her rebirth after her defeat is something she comments on mid-battle. That example is blatently character theming.

As the creators, they're well within their rights to retcon at will. Outside of what feels like personal headcanon, their retcons aren't defying the mountains of evidence for the current scaling structure, there's no reason to throw it out wily nily like this without anything much more substantial...also linking an hour long stream without timestamps isn't helpful.

I've never provided citations. I'd literally just said to wait until it releases on english. If things don't get clear, then why not just ask or contact GungHo about how powerful is Big Bang? After all, getting evidences from official companies is better than standing nothing like a daydreaming idle.

We NEED citations though. That's the point. I'm willing to wait, but if you want to push we need sources from you.

And ignoring that Gungho is a Japanese company first, and the potential for miscommunication, it's considered poor form to ask creators about power scaling. It often leads to manipulation of the system or leading questions that we do not allow.

I'm sorry if I'm starting to seem frustrated, but we've reached the point where you're derailing a fairly simple CRT with arguements that include little to no refrences, what seems like heavy headcanoning, a misunderstanding of the wiki's standards for evidence and scaling, and a disregard for previous CRTs evidence (which DOES have citations) without credible debunks. You're clearly not doing a good job convincing me, and judging by the likes you're not convincing Bob either. Please either stop or completely restructure your arguement with more credibility, because right now we're just bloating this thread.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, citations are a must and all, especially when it'd considerably alter the current indexing of the series (in fact I'd think this'd deserve being on a separate CRT). As a wiki we can't just make up answers to stuff, even if they may not be contradicted, just like how we no longer label tier 0 characters as "omnipotent" or whatever.

 

[Rustobal10]

A lot of this doesn't make sense...their rarity is no longer comparable, that's the whole point of this entire CRT. In fact, this change does make Zeus-Giga stronger than Zeus-Verse at their peaks, and COMPARABLE to the strongest Zeuses. It makes Giga being a final boss more inline with their scaling. Which, ontop of that, final bosses range wildly in their own power, and aren't always related to the fights leading up to them, so being a final boss isn't a great metric for scaling anyways.


Why though? You're not citing actual evidence or sources that 'highlight rates' shouldn't be a decided game mechanic but the 'rolling rates' should. It's still randomized gache all the same, with no extra evidence provided.

Being 'trade fodder' isn't scaling. It's meta gaming and how the characters are interpreted by the player base.

You are just saying reincarnated characters upscale, you aren't citing anything credible. In fact using Rushna as an example is terrible, because not only is her reincarnation still nearly comparable to her ultimate form (meaning their AP isn't that far lower), Rushna is a BUDDHIST god. Her theme is the reincarnation cycle, and her rebirth after her defeat is something she comments on mid-battle. That example is blatently character theming.

As the creators, they're well within their rights to retcon at will. Outside of what feels like personal headcanon, their retcons aren't defying the mountains of evidence for the current scaling structure, there's no reason to throw it out wily nily like this without anything much more substantial...also linking an hour long stream without timestamps isn't helpful.

We NEED citations though. That's the point. I'm willing to wait, but if you want to push we need sources from you.

And ignoring that Gungho is a Japanese company first, and the potential for miscommunication, it's considered poor form to ask creators about power scaling. It often leads to manipulation of the system or leading questions that we do not allow.

I'm sorry if I'm starting to seem frustrated, but we've reached the point where you're derailing a fairly simple CRT with arguements that include little to no refrences, what seems like heavy headcanoning, a misunderstanding of the wiki's standards for evidence and scaling, and a disregard for previous CRTs evidence (which DOES have citations) without credible debunks. You're clearly not doing a good job convincing me, and judging by the likes you're not convincing Bob either. Please either stop or completely restructure your arguement with more credibility, because right now we're just bloating this thread.

That's because all reincarnations have been reset to lower rarities status only to make new monsters in the future. But that still doesn't change the fact that they're still scale above that as the fusion materials require higher rarities to evolve them. SPECIFICALLY rush dungeons and technical arenas do involve the final bosses being the strongest such as from beating Athena to Athena-Non.

The highlights that involve higher rarities than the lineups. And Rushana being a buddhist god doesn't disprove all reincarnations weaker since that literally applies to all monster reincarnated titles, especially in her reincarnated title. Lmao.

Then translate your texts to Japanese. The questions aren't that inappropriate. A simple question would how strong he really is?

 

[XitSign]

That's because all reincarnations have been reset to lower rarities status only to make new monsters in the future. But that still doesn't change the fact that they're still scale above that as the fusion materials require higher rarities to evolve them. SPECIFICALLY rush dungeons and technical arenas do involve the final bosses being the strongest such as from beating Athena to Athena-Non.

The decision to do it to make more monsters is an out of universe reasoning, I can't keep stressing why these things don't equal scaling.

Not all reincarnations do, they require a variety of materials, and as already discussed fusion values that are unquantifiable are unusable. We don't use them. You're not proving all the other lore statements and feats are invalid here.

This doesn't change the fact that's not always thes case...but ALSO this revision actually will maintain similar scaling so that's a moot point.

The highlights that involve higher rarities than the lineups. And Rushana being a buddhist god doesn't disprove all reincarnations weaker since that literally applies to all monster reincarnated titles, especially in her reincarnated title. Lmao.

Higher rarities than the lineup? In what sense? What are you trying to say with this?

First of all...check your double negatives because that was confusing to read. Secondly you're still not proving they ARE stronger. You're just saying they're stronger as the argument. We need lore, statements, citations, feats, ect. Them having superior stats (game mechanic and not always true) or having harder dungeons based on player challange aren't feats.

Then translate your texts to Japanese. The questions aren't that inappropriate. A simple question would how strong he really is?

I'm sorry I'm starting to lose my temper in my typing tone, but are you not actually reading anything I type?

Even if we did, and even if we translate it perfectly, it's still against general wiki policy to contact creators directly. No. We're not doing that.

I am genuinely going to stop replying to this if you're going to keep derailing while not making a well structured, cited counter or a fully developed CRT. This thread is not the place for this at this rate.

 

[Rustobal10]

Literally you’re entire argument is based on claiming reincarnations scales to base forms which is just your headcannon assumption. Ignoring the fact that they have superior stats via awakenings, leader skills, and active skills which are not game mechanics. They are real and the evo materials being unusable and unquantifiable is completely bullshit. There would be no explanation on how they evolve. They are also real as they appear in dungeons. You have no evidence to claim that reincarnations scale to base forms. 7 star godfests, 7 star series collabs, 9 star holidays, Shura bosses, Colesseum bosses, and MD bosses>>>6 star godfests and series collabs pantheons, and 8 star holidays>>>>>>a bunch of fodders with weak skills and awakenings. Not including collabs.

 

[Bobsican]

...At this point please make your own CRT, this is quite derailing at this point and the lack of scans doesn't help.

 

[XitSign]

Literally you’re entire argument is based on claiming reincarnations scales to base forms which is just your headcannon assumption. Ignoring the fact that they have superior stats via awakenings, leader skills, and active skills which are not game mechanics. They are real and the evo materials being unusable and unquantifiable is completely bullshit. There would be no explanation on how they evolve. They are also real as they appear in dungeons. You have no evidence to claim that reincarnations scale to base forms. 7 star godfests, 7 star series collabs, 9 star holidays, Shura bosses, Colesseum bosses, and MD bosses>>>6 star godfests and series collabs pantheons, and 8 star holidays>>>>>>a bunch of fodders with weak skills and awakenings. Not including collabs.

Stats are game mechanics. Literally a wiki rule.

Leader abilities, active skills, and awakenings are powers. You don't scale based on what powers you have, that's literally unquantifiable.

The evolutions are real, but some of their VALUES are unquantifiable. We use the ones that can be quantified.

Yes, characters appear in dungeons, sometimes as bosses, sometimes as boss rushes, sometimes with no relationship to each other, and sometimes theh even form change in dungeons. None of that proves literally any scaling.

We do have evidence. Their rarity resets to their base forms, and the CRTs I posted have a number of cited, sourced, refrenced, and screencaped bits of in universe lore that confirms rarity is important in the verse's scaling.

Your final scaling chain doesn't explain why the scaling is the way you've listed it, or where a majority of the feats and calcs we have would even go and who scales to what, or even why there's multiple, nonsense '>'s. Your only argument is: "weak skills and awakenings" which guess what? Is still not how scaling works.

Stop posting here. Stop derailing. I have entertained you long enough. You are showing 0 willingness not only to actually make well cited arguements in debate, which is required, but you're also just pulling arguements that defy the Wiki's standards. You're doing yourself no favors.

 

[Bobsican]

Man, this is like using base stats and ability multipliers in Pokémon at face value, which is as direct to game mechanics as one can get, so I'd also decline that and agree with XitSign.

 

[Antvasima]

@Rustobal10

I have been told that you are being extremely unreasonable, disruptive, argumentative, and constantly refuse to follow our standards. You need to immediately greatly shape up your behaviour, or I will have to issue a ban for you from this thread, and if you continue with similar behaviour elsewhere, we will have to ban you completely from this forum.

 

[Rustobal10]

Ugh whatever. This site is always wrong. The fact that there are too many restrictions, I’m just gonna give up.

 

[XitSign]

Well, with that, back to bumpping the main post.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, what are the conclusions here so far, and can somebody provide an easy to understand explanation of what is being suggested here?

 

[XitSign]

Anyway, what are the conclusions here so far, and can somebody provide an easy to understand explanation of what is being suggested here?

Generally what's been proposed and agreed upon by Bob (we don't have many knowledgeable members...) is to downgrade all listed characters to where their new Rarity values are at.

The creators retconned what 'rarity' these reincarnation forms counted as, and previous CRTs have set the standard that rarity levels are used in-universe to compare the power of monsters.

Reincarnated monsters are now equal to their original forms, thus 'reincarnated', and should scale to these base forms instead of upscaling like they previously did. Section 3 shows all the current pages that need these downgrades, and how far they need downgraded.

Also, the fusion values for the higher rarity monsters needs a minor AP downgrade because an important member of the scaling chain is being downgraded by this change. It's a very small amount it's being dropped by, only barely above a 1x difference, but it needs updated regardless. (We've discovered this might be overturned in the near future because an upcoming character has a superior fusion value, but we'll cross that bridge when they're released)

So in TLDR for the TLDR: A bunch of characters were retconned to scale to whatever their 'original' forms are when they Reincarnate, and because of this the High Tiers need a barely noticeable AP downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Generally what's been proposed and agreed upon by Bob (we don't have many knowledgeable members...) is to downgrade all listed characters to where their new Rarity values are at.

The creators retconned what 'rarity' these reincarnation forms counted as, and previous CRTs have set the standard that rarity levels are used in-universe to compare the power of monsters.

Reincarnated monsters are now equal to their original forms, thus 'reincarnated', and should scale to these base forms instead of upscaling like they previously did. Section 3 shows all the current pages that need these downgrades, and how far they need downgraded.

Also, the fusion values for the higher rarity monsters needs a minor AP downgrade because an important member of the scaling chain is being downgraded by this change. It's a very small amount it's being dropped by, only barely above a 1x difference, but it needs updated regardless. (We've discovered this might be overturned in the near future because an upcoming character has a superior fusion value, but we'll cross that bridge when they're released)

So in TLDR for the TLDR: A bunch of characters were retconned to scale to whatever their 'original' forms are when they Reincarnate, and because of this the High Tiers need a barely noticeable AP downgrade.

Okay. That is probably fine to apply then, in lack of better options.

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente

What do you think about this?

 

[XitSign]

A quick rebump in the meantime? Are we still waiting on that input?

 

[Bobsican]

Looks like it.