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- initiate phasing and invisible pot shots
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Puella Magi Revisions.
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
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- #42
welp, I got all the magical girl's weakness applied to all but Madoka and Homura's profiles since theirs are locked.
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Hold on, you never even rebutted any of the arguments? The closest was the time stop one which you agreed would have to be applied universally to time stoppers on the wiki to be consistent.
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How does something related to the specific mechanics of Homura's time stop need to be applied universally?
People can move if they are touching her because that's how Homura's TS is shown and stated to work. To each work of fiction their time stop, if someone else portrays it that way just explain it if you want to be more accurate
People can move if they are touching her because that's how Homura's TS is shown and stated to work. To each work of fiction their time stop, if someone else portrays it that way just explain it if you want to be more accurate
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Limited contact = limited movement (Generally recoil or for projectiles, some level of movement, never enough to actually 'awaken' someone in time stop)
Full on contact the entire time = full on movement
It's not that complicated. You'll need to prove that absolutely no movement occurs in a time stop (As it would then be grounds for KE stacking) which like the thread I linked concluded on, says is not the standard.
Of course, as I said above, this is only one of the arguments. Not sure why everyone wants to not address the others but ok.
Full on contact the entire time = full on movement
It's not that complicated. You'll need to prove that absolutely no movement occurs in a time stop (As it would then be grounds for KE stacking) which like the thread I linked concluded on, says is not the standard.
Of course, as I said above, this is only one of the arguments. Not sure why everyone wants to not address the others but ok.
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No one is talking about KE stacking here except you.
And I honestly don't care if others works of fiction don't bother explaining what happens with prolonged contact, PMMM does so an explanation on the page will do.
As for the other stuff, idk what to tell you except "Soul Gems are a weak point because people die if they are shattered.
It's not easy, but it's a weak spot of an otherwise immortal body
And I honestly don't care if others works of fiction don't bother explaining what happens with prolonged contact, PMMM does so an explanation on the page will do.
As for the other stuff, idk what to tell you except "Soul Gems are a weak point because people die if they are shattered.
It's not easy, but it's a weak spot of an otherwise immortal body
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@Data Well tbf, you didn't really debunk the weaknesses about the Magical Girl's soul gems as you just clarified more on why that's the case, as opposed to why it's wrong. The timestop was the only thing you brought up that you were arguing against
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@Kal
What do you think happens when there is no movement and therefore no way for KE to spread at all? It's KE stacking. You can try to separate the two things doesn't change the fact that they're both connected.
What's next? We're gonna start describing how superhuman characteristics or weapon enhancing works in PMMM too? Like I said, I have no problem with adding to the page. Just add it to all the pages.
I just explained that it's actually more durable than the bodies so calling it a weakness is a stretch, like calling a skull a weak spot is a stretch. But go ahead, as I said in my response. Just note that it's also far more durable than the rest of their body or that it can also take the form of rings.
@Glass
I clarified why they aren't perceived as weaknesses in canon and why its weird to do so here too without context.
Stuff like: "They can barely move when their stamina is at critical" (Even though Tart and your mami example shows that its more because they don't want to instantly become a witch or the fact that many magical girls become witches mid-fight) is less of a weakness and more like, well how stamina normally works.
What do you think happens when there is no movement and therefore no way for KE to spread at all? It's KE stacking. You can try to separate the two things doesn't change the fact that they're both connected.
What's next? We're gonna start describing how superhuman characteristics or weapon enhancing works in PMMM too? Like I said, I have no problem with adding to the page. Just add it to all the pages.
I just explained that it's actually more durable than the bodies so calling it a weakness is a stretch, like calling a skull a weak spot is a stretch. But go ahead, as I said in my response. Just note that it's also far more durable than the rest of their body or that it can also take the form of rings.
@Glass
I clarified why they aren't perceived as weaknesses in canon and why its weird to do so here too without context.
Stuff like: "They can barely move when their stamina is at critical" (Even though Tart and your mami example shows that its more because they don't want to instantly become a witch or the fact that many magical girls become witches mid-fight) is less of a weakness and more like, well how stamina normally works.
Randomlamdom
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Something I noticed, some profiles with doppels (like Iroha and Yachiyo, haven't checked any others) have self resurrection for being able to resurrect from their grief seed. But since they aren't witches, it should be removed from any doppel that has it.
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@Data How are they not weaknesses? Getting your soul gem shattered literally kills you. Or anything else regarding said soul gem is their massive kryptonite. It's the same thing as Dragon Ball where low level saiyans gets weaker when you grab their tail. It's not something other characters in fiction can tell right off the bat, but it's still noteworthy nonetheless if it can still leave them in a grave situation
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@Glass Like I said, remove context, and sure you have a point.
"Destroying the soul gem kills them as well". Ignoring the implication of the as well part, you literally don't mention the facts that not only are the soul gems actually far more durable but that they can also take the forms of rings.
"If the soul gem is away from the body for more than a couple hundred meters, the body will collapse as an empty husk" Everyone except Mami Tomoe's base form knows this, and it would result in possession. Again you're ignoring the part that it results in the opponent or a bystander getting possessed or that this is a range thing rather than a weakness.
"If the Magical Girl overuses their magic too much, their soul gem will be drained to the point where they cannot be able to move" You're. Literally. Describing. Stamina. If they had extremely low amounts of magic sure, but that's not the case at all.
Don't even get me started on how they're written, the stamina one suggests some degree of immediacy or paralysis, the destruction one suggests that the soul gem being destroyed isn't the only conventional way to kill the magical girl (despite type 2 immortality), and the possession one suggests the body is the magical girl, rather than the soul gem = magical girl.
@Random good point, not sure they actually explain what happens to the soul gem/grief seed in doppel transformations.
"Destroying the soul gem kills them as well". Ignoring the implication of the as well part, you literally don't mention the facts that not only are the soul gems actually far more durable but that they can also take the forms of rings.
"If the soul gem is away from the body for more than a couple hundred meters, the body will collapse as an empty husk" Everyone except Mami Tomoe's base form knows this, and it would result in possession. Again you're ignoring the part that it results in the opponent or a bystander getting possessed or that this is a range thing rather than a weakness.
"If the Magical Girl overuses their magic too much, their soul gem will be drained to the point where they cannot be able to move" You're. Literally. Describing. Stamina. If they had extremely low amounts of magic sure, but that's not the case at all.
Don't even get me started on how they're written, the stamina one suggests some degree of immediacy or paralysis, the destruction one suggests that the soul gem being destroyed isn't the only conventional way to kill the magical girl (despite type 2 immortality), and the possession one suggests the body is the magical girl, rather than the soul gem = magical girl.
@Random good point, not sure they actually explain what happens to the soul gem/grief seed in doppel transformations.
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Has there been any proof that they're more durable than they appear?
Considering how the area in where they fight can be random, like say, the middle of nowhere. Being able to possess someone else is likely the last thing they're capable of doing.
You didn't read the comment I made where I said I'd change it to "they will have their soul gems corrupted to the point that they'd be forcefully turned into witches in the process."
Considering how the area in where they fight can be random, like say, the middle of nowhere. Being able to possess someone else is likely the last thing they're capable of doing.
You didn't read the comment I made where I said I'd change it to "they will have their soul gems corrupted to the point that they'd be forcefully turned into witches in the process."
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It was in my inital comment, remember?
Er, other than the opponent? Though SBA does state New York doesn't it?
My bad, was responding to your op rather than your convo with other ppl.
Er, other than the opponent? Though SBA does state New York doesn't it?
My bad, was responding to your op rather than your convo with other ppl.
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If the SBA makes it some random desert. Or anywhere with no life to possess. It kind of messes up their plan to possess from the get go.
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"Er, other than the opponent?" Also, the point was that its only a weakness for magical girls who don't know it, not whether it would appear in SBA (Which, couldn't I use against you too? Like, according to SBA the enemy wouldn't know anything about the soul gem or time stop)
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@Data with prep or info analysis, or any other hax that'll let them know about the soul gem. It would definitely be a weakness.
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Yo, I think you missed the point again. I was pointing out that the implementation of SBA didn't matter, and that using it would counter your points.
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which won't really if the character they're facing has ways to know ahead of time what their weakness is with stuff to get around the SBA.
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"I was pointing out that the implementation of SBA didn't matter (As SBA shouldn't matter on the indexing side of things), and that using it would counter your points (As none of the abilities you stated would be exploited purely thru SBA)"
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Ok, so SBA aside, do you have any other points that debunks the fact that soul gems are a weakness?
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Let me restate this from the beginning to remind the perspective:
"A trend you might notice here is that I'll point out these are only weaknesses in the perspective of the girls (And by extension, the series as it's from their point of view) when its depicted as an advantage by Kyubey."
- The soul gem, which is more durable than the rest of the body (Cite Magia Record and the Homura feat above), is their 'true self'. Technically, their human bodies would be the 'weakness' here, as it would be weaker than the soul gems (Of course, the bodies scale to all the feats so not sure it matters). But, like I said, I'm okay with it being added as a weakness. Just add context (Higher durability and can also be hidden as a ring)
- Possession, again only a weakness from the magical girl's perspective since they like their bodies. Say it was any possessor who had a limited range (So basically everyone here, unless they have omniversal range or something), would we treat it as a weakness or a range feat? Espically considering we already have profiles that do.
- The corruption. Again, only a weakness by a magical girl's standards. Heck, another being on this site with similar stuffs, Moon=Millenniummo, just notes it. And that's ignoring the fact that it would take days for it to actually happen (See Sayaka) or at the very least, a battle with a brick wall while suffering from extreme teenage angst, (Not including the stuff she did in time stop), it's not gonna happen. Goku dying from his accelerated metabolism would be a more legit weakness since it would at most take days compared to a week.
"A trend you might notice here is that I'll point out these are only weaknesses in the perspective of the girls (And by extension, the series as it's from their point of view) when its depicted as an advantage by Kyubey."
- The soul gem, which is more durable than the rest of the body (Cite Magia Record and the Homura feat above), is their 'true self'. Technically, their human bodies would be the 'weakness' here, as it would be weaker than the soul gems (Of course, the bodies scale to all the feats so not sure it matters). But, like I said, I'm okay with it being added as a weakness. Just add context (Higher durability and can also be hidden as a ring)
- Possession, again only a weakness from the magical girl's perspective since they like their bodies. Say it was any possessor who had a limited range (So basically everyone here, unless they have omniversal range or something), would we treat it as a weakness or a range feat? Espically considering we already have profiles that do.
- The corruption. Again, only a weakness by a magical girl's standards. Heck, another being on this site with similar stuffs, Moon=Millenniummo, just notes it. And that's ignoring the fact that it would take days for it to actually happen (See Sayaka) or at the very least, a battle with a brick wall while suffering from extreme teenage angst, (Not including the stuff she did in time stop), it's not gonna happen. Goku dying from his accelerated metabolism would be a more legit weakness since it would at most take days compared to a week.
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@Data that also depends if the girls are even aware that they can possess others in the first place. If they don't like say, the beginning of the show Sayaka and Kyoko, who had no knowledge that the soul gems were even capable of doing that. Would get screwed if their soul gems are taken away from their body.
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I do think the fact they collapse if their gem is out of range is a weakness, at least from what i've seen in the show, Sayaka wasn't even aware what happened after the fact which points towards it being a legitimate incapacitation method if the girl in question can't do anything in the scenario where their gem is no longer connected to their body.
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Yeah, but BoS Sayaka isn't even a magical girl. We don't even have a key for them. We just have them at their primes for their respective keys. Like most profiles I think, otherwise we would have stuff like "Right after the battle with Goku Vegeta" who can't even walk straight.
As a magical girl, the revelation was literally like 1 or two episodes in, she for the majority of her life as a magical girl knows the true nature of magical girls.
As a magical girl, the revelation was literally like 1 or two episodes in, she for the majority of her life as a magical girl knows the true nature of magical girls.
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@Data it was a theoretical situation. Besides, considering how Kyubey literally did not tell them anything about their Soul Gems aside from being able to turn into magical girls with it. I doubt every magical girl in existance would know that their soul gem is part of their existance.
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Every magical girl (again except base mami) profile we have, has in some way or another, knowledge of this.
The only ones who wouldn't are the ones from the computer game or one-off timelines. And at that point, that would be an individual weakness.
The only ones who wouldn't are the ones from the computer game or one-off timelines. And at that point, that would be an individual weakness.
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Does she lose the weakness later down the road?
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@Aguila Yeah she learns about the immortality type 6 like mid-way in the series, a few days as a magical girl. The rest (Which is a few weeks in comparison) has her fully aware of the fact.
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Well...
- Kazumi Magica... just... Kazumi Magica.
- Magia Record has a ghost magical girl possessing Madoka story, but it's untranslated so not really a good example.
- Tart temporarily shares the body with Riz, tho she did fuse with her at that time too, not sure if you want to count that.
Though then again this never happens (probably because the soul gem is attached to the magical girls)
- Kazumi Magica... just... Kazumi Magica.
- Magia Record has a ghost magical girl possessing Madoka story, but it's untranslated so not really a good example.
- Tart temporarily shares the body with Riz, tho she did fuse with her at that time too, not sure if you want to count that.
Though then again this never happens (probably because the soul gem is attached to the magical girls)
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No one in Kazumi Magica possessed random bystanders or anything though.
Only Kazumi and Kanna do that, and they are either put inside a new body forcefully (Kazumi) or have a backup (Kanna).
The ghost girl might have a special power, especially because it would be weird if everyone could posses each other.
Riz didn't really posses Tart, plus it's due to her wish leading to that instead of some innate mg ability
Only Kazumi and Kanna do that, and they are either put inside a new body forcefully (Kazumi) or have a backup (Kanna).
The ghost girl might have a special power, especially because it would be weird if everyone could posses each other.
Riz didn't really posses Tart, plus it's due to her wish leading to that instead of some innate mg ability
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Kazumi, Kanna, and two magical girls. The fire/ice antagonist(s), remember? And what about all the soul gems in the Freezer? The entire point was to avoid them becoming witches and to perfect the body creation process first.
Yeah, hence why I pointed out its not that good of an example. Though the latter thing has already happened (the fire/ice antagonist I mentioned earlier)
Sorta? The entire "Riz's stuff" was the wish, the part where Riz herself was with her is pretty close to what I'm saying.
Of course, lets also not forget that these all happen the few times we actually see the soul gem removed from the host body. The only time it didn't possess or get in the hands of someone else was with Sayaka.
Yeah, hence why I pointed out its not that good of an example. Though the latter thing has already happened (the fire/ice antagonist I mentioned earlier)
Sorta? The entire "Riz's stuff" was the wish, the part where Riz herself was with her is pretty close to what I'm saying.
Of course, lets also not forget that these all happen the few times we actually see the soul gem removed from the host body. The only time it didn't possess or get in the hands of someone else was with Sayaka.
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Yeah, and once they did they would have to give them new bodies.
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Yes? I think they mention that some of the early soul gems were taken without the bodies, though I do remember the majority did have their bodies.
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https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-156681/chapter/mrs-chapter-156689
^ Found the fire/ice antagonist chapter for ya btw
^ Found the fire/ice antagonist chapter for ya btw
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Bump
I'd rather not alter the profiles before all the counterarguments are debated.
Also, hopefully, have this concluded faster given there are currently 2 CRTs at the same time and I'm starting to rethink what I did agree with. Cough gun analogy to Time stop gears cough
I'd rather not alter the profiles before all the counterarguments are debated.
Also, hopefully, have this concluded faster given there are currently 2 CRTs at the same time and I'm starting to rethink what I did agree with. Cough gun analogy to Time stop gears cough
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No, they're fusing their attacks. They're possessing the same body, however.
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