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Puella Magi Revisions.
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
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Okay, I get your point. But I have to ask, what do you think you're saying?
It's an argument sure, but at best based on semantics. Like saying, 'well we haven't seen them possess girls with X blood type' or 'its not the same as possessing a farmer girl'. It's an irrelevant point. At worst, it sounds like the good ol' "Well we haven't seen DBZ characters destroy a planet with their fists, have we? It only scales to their chi ap and resistance."
The point is that they can possess a random bystander, because of its just immortality type 6. It's not dependent on magical girls, witches, or anything like that. Are we gonna assume that their attacks only work on magical beings? Or that they can't use their abilities in a neutral verse?
Your argument sounds like they cannot possess a random bystander, despite knowing full well that they should be able to. You're literally denying the times it has happened because apparently other characters don't count as 'random bystanders' when the entire point is that they can if needed to.
If your argument relies on it being unlikely to happen then do I need to point out that the weakness is just as unlikely to ever be relevant as well?
It's an argument sure, but at best based on semantics. Like saying, 'well we haven't seen them possess girls with X blood type' or 'its not the same as possessing a farmer girl'. It's an irrelevant point. At worst, it sounds like the good ol' "Well we haven't seen DBZ characters destroy a planet with their fists, have we? It only scales to their chi ap and resistance."
The point is that they can possess a random bystander, because of its just immortality type 6. It's not dependent on magical girls, witches, or anything like that. Are we gonna assume that their attacks only work on magical beings? Or that they can't use their abilities in a neutral verse?
Your argument sounds like they cannot possess a random bystander, despite knowing full well that they should be able to. You're literally denying the times it has happened because apparently other characters don't count as 'random bystanders' when the entire point is that they can if needed to.
If your argument relies on it being unlikely to happen then do I need to point out that the weakness is just as unlikely to ever be relevant as well?
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- #83
@Data being able to use chi to blow up planets as opposed to your fists is not the same thing as possession. One has many statements and feats to support the reasoning. Another is rather vague on how it works and going off front Kal and Genki. Possessing someone else seems to be something rather OOC for the magical girls.
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That's because the example wasn't based on chi and strikes but the logic behind both. During the inital run of DBZ we don't see them blowing up the planets with their fists and we also don't see them possessing people in the main series. But through logic its obvious that they can punch the planet to oblivion and the same for the magical girl's possession.
Vague on how it works? Where did that come from? We see it working the entire series.
But like I mentioned before, the entire 'removing soul gem part' is just as unlikely, and even worse so, the only reason we don't see them using their type 6 immortality is because they never need to, in the same verse that this is supposedly a weakness in. That, and all the examples don't count because of semantics apparently. (See the first half of my first argument against Kal)
Push comes to shove I could also use alt timeline examples, but I thought that the main stuff was enough.
Vague on how it works? Where did that come from? We see it working the entire series.
But like I mentioned before, the entire 'removing soul gem part' is just as unlikely, and even worse so, the only reason we don't see them using their type 6 immortality is because they never need to, in the same verse that this is supposedly a weakness in. That, and all the examples don't count because of semantics apparently. (See the first half of my first argument against Kal)
Push comes to shove I could also use alt timeline examples, but I thought that the main stuff was enough.
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- #85
But for DBZ, ki blasts are just as effective as punches. Not to mention the characters in that show never planet bust in character with the exception of a few.
Have they ever tried to possess others in the story before when their soul gem was removed? Especially random people?
Have they ever tried to possess others in the story before when their soul gem was removed? Especially random people?
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That's not the point, the point was the logic behind both statements like I already said. Though it does seem you're conceeding to the argument with the last sentence, and oof, the DB fanbase would like to have a word with that.
Refer to the part where i point out thats because the supposed weakness never gets treated as a weakness in the actual verse or that random humans don't participate in fights. And whenever the soul gems do so, they possess either the ally or enemy, but again out of convience since people can't enter a magical girl fight in the first place. TL;DR worse case scenerio you proved that they'll possess an opponent instead, which is okay I guess but that would still result in the weakness not being a weakness.
Refer to the part where i point out thats because the supposed weakness never gets treated as a weakness in the actual verse or that random humans don't participate in fights. And whenever the soul gems do so, they possess either the ally or enemy, but again out of convience since people can't enter a magical girl fight in the first place. TL;DR worse case scenerio you proved that they'll possess an opponent instead, which is okay I guess but that would still result in the weakness not being a weakness.
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- #87
But have they actually possessed their opponents in character before? I'm asking for proof that they can do this legit rather than some theoretical scenario.
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That's a strawman argument you know.SomebodyData said:
What i'm saying is "They never took control of someone else's body, so they can't".
Like, just look at your own examples, all of them either involve a spare body, or two magical girls using their soul gems to share the same body.
There is no instance at all of a magical girl straight up hijacking someone else's body, which is what would entail "they can posses random bystanders"
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Erm, you do realize the entire, steal someone's soul gem in the middle of a fight is a theoretical scenario, right? Like, that hasn't happened even in any of the spin-offs either. You're asking me to prove something happens untheoretically in your theoretical scenario
But if you insist, these aren't in the middle of combat examples since what I mentioned above but:
- Ghost girl (This is a question of whether magical girls have, rather than using a specific variation, so she counts)
- Homura and Mami if you go by Anti-Materials (Though they were friendlier in that timeline, not sure if you want to count that)
- Sayaka v Kyoko in the anthologies (Non-canon, though it was written by several of the authors of the canon mangas so it should be noted)
You could of course, wave these all as they fall under the 'not in the middle of fight when they lose their soul gem' semantics like you guys have done above, but at the end of the day I could just point out that losing one's soul gem is extremely unlikely as well.
But if you insist, these aren't in the middle of combat examples since what I mentioned above but:
- Ghost girl (This is a question of whether magical girls have, rather than using a specific variation, so she counts)
- Homura and Mami if you go by Anti-Materials (Though they were friendlier in that timeline, not sure if you want to count that)
- Sayaka v Kyoko in the anthologies (Non-canon, though it was written by several of the authors of the canon mangas so it should be noted)
You could of course, wave these all as they fall under the 'not in the middle of fight when they lose their soul gem' semantics like you guys have done above, but at the end of the day I could just point out that losing one's soul gem is extremely unlikely as well.
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Are you answering to me or Glass? Because i'm not saying that the problem is doing it in a fight or not, at all.
-You said yourself that we don't know the context for ghost girl's stuff because it's untranslated
-Idk a thing about Anti-Materials, but if it's a Tart-Riz scenario, it doesn't translate to "hijack the body of a random bystander".
-I mean, being made by the same authors is cool, but if it's not canon we can't use it anyway
-You said yourself that we don't know the context for ghost girl's stuff because it's untranslated
-Idk a thing about Anti-Materials, but if it's a Tart-Riz scenario, it doesn't translate to "hijack the body of a random bystander".
-I mean, being made by the same authors is cool, but if it's not canon we can't use it anyway
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I was answering Glass
- He wanted to know it a magical girl would do it.
- Mami and Homura switched bodies for a day, that's basically it.
- Hence the entire doesn't really count acknowledgment part. Though your comment and the other comment (sorry didn't see it) made me realize something.
I did strawman you, sorry about that. I thought you were arguing semantics when you're actually arguing that they can't possess people with their immortality type 6 at all. My bad, though to be fair, I thought since Glass knew and you were part of the PMMM threads, you would have known.
In the original discovery of the soul gem is your actual soul, Kyubey reveals the body is just a piece of external software. External software irl is replaceable, so the analogy (Which isn't actually an analogy in hindsight since the soul gem is literally hardware for the soul) just works.
It was why they had immortality type 6 in the first place, otherwise, it would just count as having 'false' bodies.
Also the entire Riz/Tart and Fire/Ice girl thing? Did it ever dawn on you that would just happen when two soul gems possess the same body, as in, true fusion for the former and psuedo fusion for the later, since fusionism on its own isn't an ability most girls have.
- He wanted to know it a magical girl would do it.
- Mami and Homura switched bodies for a day, that's basically it.
- Hence the entire doesn't really count acknowledgment part. Though your comment and the other comment (sorry didn't see it) made me realize something.
I did strawman you, sorry about that. I thought you were arguing semantics when you're actually arguing that they can't possess people with their immortality type 6 at all. My bad, though to be fair, I thought since Glass knew and you were part of the PMMM threads, you would have known.
In the original discovery of the soul gem is your actual soul, Kyubey reveals the body is just a piece of external software. External software irl is replaceable, so the analogy (Which isn't actually an analogy in hindsight since the soul gem is literally hardware for the soul) just works.
It was why they had immortality type 6 in the first place, otherwise, it would just count as having 'false' bodies.
Also the entire Riz/Tart and Fire/Ice girl thing? Did it ever dawn on you that would just happen when two soul gems possess the same body, as in, true fusion for the former and psuedo fusion for the later, since fusionism on its own isn't an ability most girls have.
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I do know about the software-hardware analogy, it's more that in my view, it's a "I can replace my hardware if it stops working" sort of deal, rather than "I can hack your PC to use it as if it was my own".
And pretty sure that body hopping is type 6 even if you simply have spare bodies.
The problem with the fusion part is basically "we don't know how it works if someone is trying to resist it" (aka possession). Also because people have software/souls even as non magical girls.
Like, if there was a corpse lying around, they'd be able to possess it, with a living person, it's unknown
And pretty sure that body hopping is type 6 even if you simply have spare bodies.
The problem with the fusion part is basically "we don't know how it works if someone is trying to resist it" (aka possession). Also because people have software/souls even as non magical girls.
Like, if there was a corpse lying around, they'd be able to possess it, with a living person, it's unknown
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Then the issue becomes what we've actually seen right? Like the Anti-Materials part where Mami and Homura switch bodies?
Only Kanna has spare bodies tho?
I mean, going back to the fire/ice antagonist before they do pseudo-fusion they just switch control. The Ice soul gem was the dominant one until the fire one decided to fight. Also, wouldn't that require Resistance to Immortality type 6?
Unless there are a significant amount of corpses lying around, I doubt Kyubey would call it an advantage.
Only Kanna has spare bodies tho?
I mean, going back to the fire/ice antagonist before they do pseudo-fusion they just switch control. The Ice soul gem was the dominant one until the fire one decided to fight. Also, wouldn't that require Resistance to Immortality type 6?
Unless there are a significant amount of corpses lying around, I doubt Kyubey would call it an advantage.
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I say that even in the assumption they can possess a body it doesn't mean the weakness of them needing their soulgem to be within 100 meters of a body to control it is gone, it just that they have found ways around it. But in the hypothetical scenario when there is no people around to possess, or their gem is sent to an isolated place they would be helpless to do anything, even if the scenario is unlikely to happen it's still a weakness. Superman has kryptonite listed as one even though it's never ever coming into play in any of his fights since kryptonite only exists in the DC universe.
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That makes sense, only the issue is that the soul gem possession isn't even treated as a weakness in the verse. I think a more fair comparison would be something like, "removing yellow sunlight would make Superman weaker". But like I mentioned way deep in this thread, we don't write this down for anyone who uses immortality type 6 or possession, even though its the same thing.
Also, tbh, there are a lot more likely scenarios that aren't written down for the entire site. Samus or Iron Man's insides being flesh, DB characters and their stamina/focus correlating with their power, etc
Also, tbh, there are a lot more likely scenarios that aren't written down for the entire site. Samus or Iron Man's insides being flesh, DB characters and their stamina/focus correlating with their power, etc
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I'll concede to Aguila's point, the thread's gone long enough. I am guessing tho, since my other points regarding the other weaknesses (Ie the soul gem is actually significantly more durable than the body, the corruption of the soul gem is basically just stamina and would be more practical as a note ie Moon=Millenniummo).
As for the Time Manipulation stuffs, I already agreed with the jamming the gears thing in the beginning of the thread, whereas the time stop movement argument basically ended at 'Well we can do it to the puella magi profiles, other ones don't matter'. To which I say make a bigger CRT for that.
Now if you excuse me, gonna be working on the Magia Record profiles and Holy Alina (speaking of which, no one answered me on what we do with the feat). I have a Metroid CRT to do to, but that's probably on hold until I make the Weaknesses Addition thread (I like to be consistent with the profiles, also why I'm gonna be updating some of the PMMM profiles to include Memoria images)
@Glass since you already edited the profiles, mind finishing the changes (Again assuming you did concede to my other arguments since you guys dropped them) to:
"If the Soul gems are removed 100 meters away from their initial body, they lose control over the body."
If you guys wanna add context while you're at it: "However, this is rare even in the verse itself, and they can generally possess other bodies if needed."
If you guys just dropped it for no reason, I mean, go ahead and do nothing I guess, kinda disingenuous for an indexing/debating site, but sure.
As for the Time Manipulation stuffs, I already agreed with the jamming the gears thing in the beginning of the thread, whereas the time stop movement argument basically ended at 'Well we can do it to the puella magi profiles, other ones don't matter'. To which I say make a bigger CRT for that.
Now if you excuse me, gonna be working on the Magia Record profiles and Holy Alina (speaking of which, no one answered me on what we do with the feat). I have a Metroid CRT to do to, but that's probably on hold until I make the Weaknesses Addition thread (I like to be consistent with the profiles, also why I'm gonna be updating some of the PMMM profiles to include Memoria images)
@Glass since you already edited the profiles, mind finishing the changes (Again assuming you did concede to my other arguments since you guys dropped them) to:
"If the Soul gems are removed 100 meters away from their initial body, they lose control over the body."
If you guys wanna add context while you're at it: "However, this is rare even in the verse itself, and they can generally possess other bodies if needed."
If you guys just dropped it for no reason, I mean, go ahead and do nothing I guess, kinda disingenuous for an indexing/debating site, but sure.
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- #97
I just need Homura and madoka's profile to edit in terms of the weaknesses. I'll make the changes when I get back home.
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Want me to open them for you for when you get home (Like how long would it take)? Or would you prefer if I add them myself?
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- #99
I'll be home in a couple of hours.
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u dere my dude?
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The time stop movement argument on my end is "Why you wouldn't explain better the technique on the profile if you can", at which point i indeed do not care if others profiles don't because it simply means that Homura's profile is better.
Yes, more context regarding the various weaknesses (And how they are mitigated by the other abilities of the magical girls) is fine, i'm not arguing against that.
Back to the possesion stuff:
-Switching bodies is again, not the same as stealing someone's.
Like, the issue is, if you are possessing someone, it means that there are two souls playing tug of war for the control of the body, and possession, by wiki standards, means that your souls win and "steals" the body.
If Mami and Homura switch bodies, it means that the souls are swapped, they aren't fighting against each other for control. Same if they are two magical girls sharing the body instead of fighting against each other to control it.
And i'm pretty sure that it's already safe to assume that they have a very basic resistance to possesion, simply because they are already being "possessed"
Yes, more context regarding the various weaknesses (And how they are mitigated by the other abilities of the magical girls) is fine, i'm not arguing against that.
Back to the possesion stuff:
-Switching bodies is again, not the same as stealing someone's.
Like, the issue is, if you are possessing someone, it means that there are two souls playing tug of war for the control of the body, and possession, by wiki standards, means that your souls win and "steals" the body.
If Mami and Homura switch bodies, it means that the souls are swapped, they aren't fighting against each other for control. Same if they are two magical girls sharing the body instead of fighting against each other to control it.
And i'm pretty sure that it's already safe to assume that they have a very basic resistance to possesion, simply because they are already being "possessed"
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- #102
@Data sorry, had some stuff to do my dad asked me for in the last minute.
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@Glass
Well whenever you wanna do it. Though I realized if you're both okay with adding context Imma have to revise them all anyways lol.;_;
...Also did you put the witchification weakness on Magia Record girls? And Lapin and Kirika?
@Kal
I'm getting deja vu there, since, we had this debate a while back but in regards to why Ultimate Madoka manifesting in 3-D space, but on the opposite sides. If I remember correctly, you told me that something so trivial shouldn't be on a page, and that we can explain it if needed. Wouldn't this logic apply here?
Btw, what were your thoughts on treating the soul gem corruption process like Moon=Millenniummo again? Minor thing.
Well whenever you wanna do it. Though I realized if you're both okay with adding context Imma have to revise them all anyways lol.
...Also did you put the witchification weakness on Magia Record girls? And Lapin and Kirika?
@Kal
I'm getting deja vu there, since, we had this debate a while back but in regards to why Ultimate Madoka manifesting in 3-D space, but on the opposite sides. If I remember correctly, you told me that something so trivial shouldn't be on a page, and that we can explain it if needed. Wouldn't this logic apply here?
Btw, what were your thoughts on treating the soul gem corruption process like Moon=Millenniummo again? Minor thing.
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- #104
I can do it now. And also yeah I did. Are the Magia record girls different from normal Magical girls?
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Basically they become baby witches when there soul gems get corrupted, and then revert back.
Most of the magical girls are magia record girls
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Open nowww
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- #107
done with Madoka and Homura. You can close them both, and I added the thing about them losing their weaknesses once they became a god.
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I mean the Madoka note was essentially "It's popular belief that she has this weakness but she actually doesn't", and it's something that never really comes into play anyway, while being able to move in stopped time if you are touching Homura does happen a few times.
You mean adding a note? I dunno, I feel that the whole corruption thing could be briefly explained in their stamina section, given that it's basically tied to that
You mean adding a note? I dunno, I feel that the whole corruption thing could be briefly explained in their stamina section, given that it's basically tied to that
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- #109
@Data but they still have their soul gems right?
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ye
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- #111
have they survived even when their soul gems got destroyed or not?
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no?
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- #113
Ok, then it should stay on their profiles. And with that, I think I got everything. I'll close this if there's nothing else to add or discuss
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What does that have to do with the soul gem corruption?
Given the context has been agreed to, I'll probably be revising them (Alongside other stuff I've found / haven't been done yet)
Given the context has been agreed to, I'll probably be revising them (Alongside other stuff I've found / haven't been done yet)
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- #115
You said that they can revert from witch to magical girl at will. So I was asking if that means they don't have their soul gem weakness anymore
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Yeah, they don't have the Corruption weakness.
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- #117
Then that can be removed for the Magia Record girls. Anything else I missed?
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Base and Post-Cannibalism Kazumi both shouldn't have any of the weaknesses
Lapin shouldn't have corruption or destruction either
And I think thats it
Lapin shouldn't have corruption or destruction either
And I think thats it
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