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Prototype Downgrades: Part 2
- Thread starter ByAsura
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XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,898
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That was mostly a joke.
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What guide?
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What does the guide say?
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,898
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Bump.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,898
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Bump.
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Bump.
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This is the calc Zamasu is talking about btw.
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In the cutscene, Heller is nowhere near the burner. Assuming he's 2 metres from the blast, the result is only Small Building level for both ends, he took heavy damage in both instances as well.
Also, I still can't find those guides. I did once, but I think they're gone. Anyway, I find the decision that Heller doesn't exploit a Goliath's weak points in order to defeat them highly arbitrary and not supported by the game. Those sections are visibly less armoured, and it'd also make tearing its head off invalid due to these same gameplay mechanics.
I've had this whole argument saved in a document for a week, so I'm just going to save it here.
Goliaths specifically have organic armour plating, while the sections that Heller cuts off are much smaller and have no visible plates. It's obvious these points are weaker than the rest, which is why the game instructs player targets them specifically and they are much less resistant.
I don't see how punching someone in the head would mean that the connection between their head and spine gets weakened, especially when we saw no evidence that the connections between the heads of the Goliaths and their necks gets weakened at the skeletal level (we don't even have any statements that Heller's attacks has shattered/damaged its bones significantly or anything). Hitting someone in the face/chest does not mean that their neck/spine gets weakened enough that you can rip their head that's attached to their spine.
This isn't real-life. You keep saying "I don't see how their spines are weakened", but this is just an opinion, maybe you should use evidence from the game.
One of your many points is that being 2-5 times stronger wouldn't allow a person to rip off someone else's limbs, so how can Heller and Mercer casually tear Evolved of similar strength after they're weakened? How does Heller decapitate Archer? It's simple, they're just weakened overall. I'm pretty sure biomass, which is what all infected and everyone in game is made of, weakens. In the final battle, Heller goes from being overpowered by Mercer to tearing his arms off on multiple occasions, even if they're similar in strength it shows that his bones were weakened.
And Mercer has also absorbed multiple Evolved via touch at once, whom are Blacklight beings that are far above any mere human, and he didn't need to weaken them to absorb them. Mercer's absorption doesn't even depend on him needing to weaken his targets, especially with feats such as absorbing a human via touch and absorbing an superhuman Infected via touch, especially outside of the gameplay. The existence of those feats implies that weakening targets to absorb them could just be because of gameplay mechanics and/or cinematic effects. Either way, it doesn't matter for Goliaths as you've said, as Mercer's absorption feats aren't even applicable for Heller until after he absorbs Mercer at least.
Yes, in Prototype 2, I'm not talking about Mercer after he grew an order of magnitude stronger in the second game. It generally does, even in cutscenes, as I've shown before, Alex is even forced to disable the Leader Hunter's spine before absorbing it because they're resistant to his abilities. He can absorb humans because they're like water baloons to him. Also, even at the end of game, Heller still has to beat a significantly weaker enemy to death before he can absorb them.
For a compromise, I could see Small Building level, possibly Building level for Heller.
Also, I still can't find those guides. I did once, but I think they're gone. Anyway, I find the decision that Heller doesn't exploit a Goliath's weak points in order to defeat them highly arbitrary and not supported by the game. Those sections are visibly less armoured, and it'd also make tearing its head off invalid due to these same gameplay mechanics.
I've had this whole argument saved in a document for a week, so I'm just going to save it here.
Goliaths specifically have organic armour plating, while the sections that Heller cuts off are much smaller and have no visible plates. It's obvious these points are weaker than the rest, which is why the game instructs player targets them specifically and they are much less resistant.
I wasn't saying Mercer winding Heller was gameplay mechanics, not purpousely anyway. I'm writing it off as gameplay mechanics because Heller can't be incapacitated like he was against Mercer or perspire in-game, and he takes little to no damage by being impaled.DeathNoodles said:
I don't see how punching someone in the head would mean that the connection between their head and spine gets weakened, especially when we saw no evidence that the connections between the heads of the Goliaths and their necks gets weakened at the skeletal level (we don't even have any statements that Heller's attacks has shattered/damaged its bones significantly or anything). Hitting someone in the face/chest does not mean that their neck/spine gets weakened enough that you can rip their head that's attached to their spine.
This isn't real-life. You keep saying "I don't see how their spines are weakened", but this is just an opinion, maybe you should use evidence from the game.
One of your many points is that being 2-5 times stronger wouldn't allow a person to rip off someone else's limbs, so how can Heller and Mercer casually tear Evolved of similar strength after they're weakened? How does Heller decapitate Archer? It's simple, they're just weakened overall. I'm pretty sure biomass, which is what all infected and everyone in game is made of, weakens. In the final battle, Heller goes from being overpowered by Mercer to tearing his arms off on multiple occasions, even if they're similar in strength it shows that his bones were weakened.
And Mercer has also absorbed multiple Evolved via touch at once, whom are Blacklight beings that are far above any mere human, and he didn't need to weaken them to absorb them. Mercer's absorption doesn't even depend on him needing to weaken his targets, especially with feats such as absorbing a human via touch and absorbing an superhuman Infected via touch, especially outside of the gameplay. The existence of those feats implies that weakening targets to absorb them could just be because of gameplay mechanics and/or cinematic effects. Either way, it doesn't matter for Goliaths as you've said, as Mercer's absorption feats aren't even applicable for Heller until after he absorbs Mercer at least.
Yes, in Prototype 2, I'm not talking about Mercer after he grew an order of magnitude stronger in the second game. It generally does, even in cutscenes, as I've shown before, Alex is even forced to disable the Leader Hunter's spine before absorbing it because they're resistant to his abilities. He can absorb humans because they're like water baloons to him. Also, even at the end of game, Heller still has to beat a significantly weaker enemy to death before he can absorb them.
For a compromise, I could see Small Building level, possibly Building level for Heller.
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>In the cutscene, Heller is nowhere near the burner. Assuming he's 2 metres from the blast, the result is only Small Building level for both ends, he took heavy damage in both instances as well.
Uh the same results happen when Heller is near the burners, and the explosion vaporizes all the zombies no matter what part of the room they're in.
Uh the same results happen when Heller is near the burners, and the explosion vaporizes all the zombies no matter what part of the room they're in.
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So you agree with 8-C Heller via vaporization?
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I'm fairly certain that the calc used the vaporization values for humans to obtain it's result.
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So should they be applied then? This should only scale to Heller and Prototype 2 Alex.
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> In that case, it seems just scaling it to vaporizing humans is better.
Ok then what did you mean by this?
Ok then what did you mean by this?
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Any calculations should be placed in a blog, after which you can ask other calc group members for evaluations:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4020729
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4020729
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,898
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I agree with the Vaporizing Calc.
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A human-sized body being engulfed by the surface tempreture of the sun's heat only does 8-B damage (and 8-A+ for the core tempreture), despite the sun having a massive area of effect and massive energy output. So the furnace vaporizing multiple zombies is not really relevant since the heat transfer damage is limited by the surface area (unless we are talking about magical fire which often does an unrealistic amount of damage compared to temperature).
I recall vaporizing a human or tanking an attack that would vaporize a human is 9-A.
I recall vaporizing a human or tanking an attack that would vaporize a human is 9-A.
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Given that heat damage works differently than kinetic energy both in fiction and reality, I think that heat resistance feats should probably be written as "Resistance to Heat Manipulation" instead of as (too) low durability.
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Took a while for the response I've been waiting for, and it has to be on a day when I'm feeling a bit under the weather. Just my luck. Oh well, here are my replies to these points:
This isn't real-life. You keep saying "I don't see how their spines are weakened", but this is just an opinion, maybe you should use evidence from the game.
One of your many points is that being 2-5 times stronger wouldn't allow a person to rip off someone else's limbs, so how can Heller and Mercer casually tear Evolved of similar strength after they're weakened? How does Heller decapitate Archer? It's simple, they're just weakened overall. I'm pretty sure biomass, which is what all infected and everyone in game is made of, weakens. In the final battle, Heller goes from being overpowered by Mercer to tearing his arms off on multiple occasions, even if they're similar in strength it shows that his bones were weakened.
This isn't real life, but this site operates by implementing real life logic to these characters in order to properly quantify their feats and capabilities (which includes a character scaling to an another superhuman character of specific durability by ripping off their spines/head), and I don't see why Prototype should be an exception when there isn't any explicit statements/quotes that implies that the Prototype characters are exempt from this - especially when we don't have enough quotes/statements to suggest that the "biomass-like" internal skeletal system of the Infected is different enough from an ordinary creature's to the point that their skeletal system is weaker than their overall durability as you seem to be implying (and there isn't even any explicit quote or statement that says that the durability of the characters' biomass-like skeletal system are weakened enough to be able to sever their limbs anyways. As far as the standards of this site goes, I'm pretty sure ripping off an another character's limbs, even if they're "weakened" as you've said, would still scale to their AP by default anyways. So if a previously 9-B character was able to physically weaken and rip off the limbs of a 8-A character, I'm pretty sure that character would become 8-A in AP). As far as I'm aware, I've provided enough evidence from the game, and a Goliath lacking the feats of significantly affecting Heller does not exempt Mercer's feat of winding Heller in any way (who physically weakened a Golaith, severed its limbs, ripped off its heads with his bare hands, etc.) - as the lack of sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits.
Yes, in Prototype 2, I'm not talking about Mercer after he grew an order of magnitude stronger in the second game. It generally does, even in cutscenes, as I've shown before, Alex is even forced to disable the Leader Hunter's spine before absorbing it because they're resistant to his abilities. He can absorb humans because they're like water baloons to him. Also, even at the end of game, Heller still has to beat a significantly weaker enemy to death before he can absorb them. For a compromise, I could see Small Building level, possibly Building level for Heller.
It was explicitly mentioned in the Prototype narrative/lore that a Leader Hunter needing to have its two brains to be destroyed to be absorbed is due to its resistance to Mercer's absorption, to the point that it seems to have an adaptation against Mercer's methods. As far as I'm aware, only the Leader Hunters have resistance to Mercer's absorption, with no other infected scaling to the Leader Hunters' resistance (which is shown in Prototype 2 when he was able to absorb an entire group of Evolved just by touching them, without needing to destroy their brain or weaken them or anything); as far as I'm aware, we have not been given enough evidence that the abilities of certain Blacklight characters to absorb their targets (such as Mercer, Heller and the Evolved when they absorb their targets) depends on AP in any way to absorb their targets.
As far as I'm aware, the majority in this thread (including the other staff members) has already agreed with Heller being 8-C via scaling to a Goliath, but being 8-C to a slightly lesser extent (but still technically 8-C in the end). Is that enough for a compromise?
Again, we can just agree to disagree and leave the others to vote on whether or not Heller should get 8-C scaling in the end, as I doubt we would get anywhere after going around in circles several times for the topic of Heller' 8-C scaling and those related to it.
Yes, the game, as in only the gameplay mechanics and the guidebooks (which makes hyperbolic statements such as near-impenetrable armour and lightning fast attacks. I'm pretty sure the Goliaths don't move at the speed of a lightning strike, so there isn't much merit to go through the claims from the guidebooks just from that). Not the narrative or the lore, and having a claim of "near-impenetrable armour" is not even enough evidence that the armour is vastly more durable than the rest of the body to earn its own tier anyways (it didn't even explicitly state that the armour is vastly more durable than the rest of its body anyways, so having "nigh-impenetrable" armour with not much else to go on is a bit too vague). As far as I'm aware, it's still 8-C durability in the end, for all parts of a Goliath's body.ByAsura said:
Except we literally see a cutscene of Mercer winding Heller with a hit, and then winding him even further with his second hit. This is a cutscene, not some optional gameplay sequence. No matter how one would see it, Mercer winding Heller is a feat that's cano. One can't simply just handwave a feat that is demonstrated to be canonical to a franchise's narrative and lore just simply because a creature suffers from the lack of feats of significantly affecting a protagonist in the narrative/lore like the main antagonist of that franchise has done so.ByAsura said:
This isn't real-life. You keep saying "I don't see how their spines are weakened", but this is just an opinion, maybe you should use evidence from the game.
One of your many points is that being 2-5 times stronger wouldn't allow a person to rip off someone else's limbs, so how can Heller and Mercer casually tear Evolved of similar strength after they're weakened? How does Heller decapitate Archer? It's simple, they're just weakened overall. I'm pretty sure biomass, which is what all infected and everyone in game is made of, weakens. In the final battle, Heller goes from being overpowered by Mercer to tearing his arms off on multiple occasions, even if they're similar in strength it shows that his bones were weakened.
This isn't real life, but this site operates by implementing real life logic to these characters in order to properly quantify their feats and capabilities (which includes a character scaling to an another superhuman character of specific durability by ripping off their spines/head), and I don't see why Prototype should be an exception when there isn't any explicit statements/quotes that implies that the Prototype characters are exempt from this - especially when we don't have enough quotes/statements to suggest that the "biomass-like" internal skeletal system of the Infected is different enough from an ordinary creature's to the point that their skeletal system is weaker than their overall durability as you seem to be implying (and there isn't even any explicit quote or statement that says that the durability of the characters' biomass-like skeletal system are weakened enough to be able to sever their limbs anyways. As far as the standards of this site goes, I'm pretty sure ripping off an another character's limbs, even if they're "weakened" as you've said, would still scale to their AP by default anyways. So if a previously 9-B character was able to physically weaken and rip off the limbs of a 8-A character, I'm pretty sure that character would become 8-A in AP). As far as I'm aware, I've provided enough evidence from the game, and a Goliath lacking the feats of significantly affecting Heller does not exempt Mercer's feat of winding Heller in any way (who physically weakened a Golaith, severed its limbs, ripped off its heads with his bare hands, etc.) - as the lack of sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits.
Yes, in Prototype 2, I'm not talking about Mercer after he grew an order of magnitude stronger in the second game. It generally does, even in cutscenes, as I've shown before, Alex is even forced to disable the Leader Hunter's spine before absorbing it because they're resistant to his abilities. He can absorb humans because they're like water baloons to him. Also, even at the end of game, Heller still has to beat a significantly weaker enemy to death before he can absorb them. For a compromise, I could see Small Building level, possibly Building level for Heller.
It was explicitly mentioned in the Prototype narrative/lore that a Leader Hunter needing to have its two brains to be destroyed to be absorbed is due to its resistance to Mercer's absorption, to the point that it seems to have an adaptation against Mercer's methods. As far as I'm aware, only the Leader Hunters have resistance to Mercer's absorption, with no other infected scaling to the Leader Hunters' resistance (which is shown in Prototype 2 when he was able to absorb an entire group of Evolved just by touching them, without needing to destroy their brain or weaken them or anything); as far as I'm aware, we have not been given enough evidence that the abilities of certain Blacklight characters to absorb their targets (such as Mercer, Heller and the Evolved when they absorb their targets) depends on AP in any way to absorb their targets.
As far as I'm aware, the majority in this thread (including the other staff members) has already agreed with Heller being 8-C via scaling to a Goliath, but being 8-C to a slightly lesser extent (but still technically 8-C in the end). Is that enough for a compromise?
Again, we can just agree to disagree and leave the others to vote on whether or not Heller should get 8-C scaling in the end, as I doubt we would get anywhere after going around in circles several times for the topic of Heller' 8-C scaling and those related to it.
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What do you think about the calc Noodles?
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If all the Infected Citizens/Walkers in the room were all vaporised, regardless of their distance to the burners, then it should already give 8-C AP for Heller for surviving and enduring it by default anyways (and the calc uses human vapourisation values anyways, so even lowballing for those Infected being vapourised - despite being superhuman in AP and durability - and having the low-end of the calc already gives 8-C value in total anyways). So yeah, I can agree for the 8-C vaporisation AP based on that.
Though others might disagree, so we can just wait for further inputs.
Though others might disagree, so we can just wait for further inputs.
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The guidebook says it has armour, though, "near-impenetrable" (this one is perfectly justifiable, as tanks cannot harm them) and "lightning-fast" are completely irrelevant. "as in only the gameplay mechanics and the guidebooks" don't ignore this stuff, it's a canon guide. The armour clearly exists and it's highly visible on their body.DeathNoodles said:
Except we literally see a cutscene of Mercer winding Heller with a hit. This is a cutscene, not some optional gameplay sequence. No matter how one would see it, Mercer winding Heller is a feat that's cano. One can't simply just handwave a feat that is demonstrated to be canonical to a franchise's narrative and lore just simply because a creature suffers from the lack of feats of significantly affecting a protagonist in the narrative/lore like the main antagonist of that franchise has done so.
I'm not talking about the cutscene, I'm talking about the Goliath not winding Heller even by impaling him, which even Alex's blows could do despite doing little to no damage. In-gameplay Heller can even take little to no damage from getting Bio-bombed by an evolved.
This isn't real life, but this site operates by implementing real life logic to these characters in order to properly quantify their feats and capabilities (which includes a character scaling to an another superhuman character of specific durability by ripping off their spines/head), and I don't see why Prototype should be an exception when there isn't any explicit statements/quotes that implies that the Prototype characters are exempt from this - especially when we don't have enough quotes/statements to suggest that the "biomass-like" internal skeletal system of the Infected is different enough from an ordinary creature's to the point that their skeletal system is weaker than their overall durability as you seem to be implying (and there isn't even any explicit quote or statement that says that the durability of the characters' biomass-like skeletal system are weakened enough to be able to sever their limbs anyways. As far as the standards of this site goes, I'm pretty sure ripping off an another character's limbs, even if they're "weakened" as you've said, would still scale to their AP by default anyways. So if a previously 9-B character was able to physically weaken and rip off the limbs of a 8-A character, I'm pretty sure that character would become 8-A in AP). As far as I'm aware, I've provided enough evidence from the game, and a Goliath lacking the feats of significantly affecting Heller does not exempt Mercer's feat of winding Heller in any way (who physically weakened a Golaith, severed its limbs, ripped off its heads with his bare hands, etc.) - as the lack of sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits.
This site uses real life logic for things like calcs and such, which is why lightspeed FTL kinetic energy isn't accepted. Specifically destroying weakspots does not prove that one character is comparable to another, and the Goliath's limbs can be as weak as they want.
There's no explicit evidence, it's just logic and reason. I've given you a multitude of feats where Heller and Mercer's enemies are weakened and can be easily torn apart once they've been beaten. It's also a staple of basically any game like this. Also, you'd be surprised at how characters don't scale because of this very reason.
You've hardly provided evidence at all, though. "sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits" for the last time, Goliaths can literally impale Heller and you're still arguing that they basically can't do anything against him.
It was explicitly mentioned in the Prototype narrative/lore that a Leader Hunter needing to have its two brains to be destroyed to be absorbed is due to its resistance to Mercer's absorption, to the point that it seems to have an adaptation against Mercer's methods. As far as I'm aware, only the Leader Hunters have resistance to Mercer's absorption, with no other infected scaling to the Leader Hunters' resistance (which is shown in Prototype 2 when he was able to absorb an entire group of Evolved just by touching them, without needing to destroy their brain or weaken them or anything); as far as I'm aware, we have not been given enough evidence that the abilities of certain Blacklight characters to absorb their targets (such as Mercer, Heller and the Evolved when they absorb their targets) depends on AP in any way to absorb their targets.
The Leader Hunter is only resistant due to its second brain, which Mercer has to break first, implying that he generally sends infected into a recovery state before he absorbs them. Also, Mercer still has to beat enemies to death before he can absorb them, such as Greene, there's no indication that he could simply absorb a Hunter outright, Heller couldn't outright absorb Roland either.
As far as I'm aware, the majority in this thread (including the other staff members) has already agreed with Heller being 8-C via scaling to a Goliath to a slightly lesser extent (but still technically 8-C in the end). Is that enough for a compromise?
Again, we can just agree to disagree and leave the others to vote on whether or not Heller should get 8-C scaling in the end, as I doubt we would get anywhere after going around in circles several times for the topic of Heller' 8-C scaling and those related to it.
Well, I completely and utterly disagree. No on that compromise.
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>"The guidebook says it has armour, though, "near-impenetrable" (this one is perfectly justifiable, as tanks cannot harm them) and "lightning-fast" are completely irrelevant. "as in only the gameplay mechanics and the guidebooks" don't ignore this stuff, it's a canon guide. The armour clearly exists and it's highly visible on their body."
Are there any explicit quotes/statements that says that the armour is vastly more durable than the rest of its body to the extent that their body's durability cannot compare in anyway at all? If not, then their body should still be 8-C even if it's to a tad lesser extent (which is still 8-C in the end).
>"I'm not talking about the cutscene, I'm talking about the Goliath not winding Heller even by impaling him, which even Alex's blows could do despite doing little to no damage. In-gameplay Heller can even take little to no damage from getting Bio-bombed by an evolved."
And how would you assume that Mercer's blows did little to no damage, despite clearly winding Heller? One can be hurt without needing a explicit visual indication just based on how they are reacting (if they haven't shown any reactions to it to signify that they're hurt, then it could safely assumed that they are unaffected to compensate on the fact that we can't see any visible damage on them. The opposite applies if they do show reactions to show that they're affected in a significant way, to compensate for the fact that we can't see any visible damage on them). Well, too bad we still see that cutscene of Heller literally ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, which still qualifies to 8-C scaling even if you would argue that the Goliath is weakened anyways (and I don't recall the connection between their heads and body having weak points like their limbs do in the gameplay).
>"This site uses real life logic for things like calcs and such, which is why lightspeed FTL kinetic energy isn't accepted. Specifically destroying weakspots does not prove that one character is comparable to another, and the Goliath's limbs can be as weak as they want.
There's no explicit evidence, it's just logic and reason. I've given you a multitude of feats where Heller and Mercer's enemies are weakened and can be easily torn apart once they've been beaten. It's also a staple of basically any game like this. Also, you'd be surprised at how characters don't scale because of this very reason.
You've hardly provided evidence at all, though. "sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits" for the last time, Goliaths can literally impale Heller and you're still arguing that they basically can't do anything against him."
And how weak is that Goliath's limbs and their weakpoints? Because as far as I'm aware, I still have not found any instances in the narrative/lore that says that a Goliath needs to be targeted in their limbs when even shells shot from tanks couldn't do anything to them like you've said (and it's strange that not once has any of the Blackwatch soldiers or armies has tried to target their limbs or weakpoints that are supposedly weak enough that it can even be harmed by military artillery like you've implied). Also, I don't recall any instances of a Goliath's point in their limbs being weak enough that anything can damage it.
Alright, and how many examples of other games that has characters that has failed to scale even if their narrative/lore has shown that they can rip off the limbs or heads of the supposed higher-tiered character? I would like to know if there are a lot of them.
I'm not arguing that a Goliath is unable to harm Heller with its hits (at least, that's not my intent. Guess I should've worded things better before), just that Mercer should not at all be much weaker than it when we literally see him winding Heller with just a few of his hits.
>"The Leader Hunter is only resistant due to its second brain, which Mercer has to break first, implying that he generally sends infected into a recovery state before he absorbs them. Also, Mercer still has to beat enemies to death before he can absorb them, such as Greene, there's no indication that he could simply absorb a Hunter outright."
It didn't state anything about the second brain and spinal column being the very reasons why Mercer can't absorb them, just that it needs to be "weakened" into a "recovery state" to be able to absorb it, with the destruction of its brains and spinal columns as ways to do so. One could argue that their adaptation is limited enough that they have stopped being resistant to Absorption after being weakened into the "recovery state", and that the brains and columns being destroyed are just one of the ways to weaken it to a recovery state. Not like it matters either way, as the Leader Hunters' resistance to Absorption doesn't apply to other infected, as shown by the Evolved lacking resistance to Mercer absorbing them (when we saw that Heller needs to weaken them first in Prototype 2). And being unable to absorb Greene could simply be due to the fact that Mercer doesn't have a viable way to absorb her when she's inside her Mother Form due to her sheer size, especially given that she has green-coloured orbs that homes in on him and damage him, as well as tendrils to strike at him and have the infected within her vicinity attack him.
>"Well, I completely and utterly disagree. No on that compromise."
Then I guess we can keep going around in circles then. "Possibly 8-C" is too low of an 8-C scaling for me to compromise with it from what I can see. I would've made do with "Likely 8-C" at least.
Are there any explicit quotes/statements that says that the armour is vastly more durable than the rest of its body to the extent that their body's durability cannot compare in anyway at all? If not, then their body should still be 8-C even if it's to a tad lesser extent (which is still 8-C in the end).
>"I'm not talking about the cutscene, I'm talking about the Goliath not winding Heller even by impaling him, which even Alex's blows could do despite doing little to no damage. In-gameplay Heller can even take little to no damage from getting Bio-bombed by an evolved."
And how would you assume that Mercer's blows did little to no damage, despite clearly winding Heller? One can be hurt without needing a explicit visual indication just based on how they are reacting (if they haven't shown any reactions to it to signify that they're hurt, then it could safely assumed that they are unaffected to compensate on the fact that we can't see any visible damage on them. The opposite applies if they do show reactions to show that they're affected in a significant way, to compensate for the fact that we can't see any visible damage on them). Well, too bad we still see that cutscene of Heller literally ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, which still qualifies to 8-C scaling even if you would argue that the Goliath is weakened anyways (and I don't recall the connection between their heads and body having weak points like their limbs do in the gameplay).
>"This site uses real life logic for things like calcs and such, which is why lightspeed FTL kinetic energy isn't accepted. Specifically destroying weakspots does not prove that one character is comparable to another, and the Goliath's limbs can be as weak as they want.
There's no explicit evidence, it's just logic and reason. I've given you a multitude of feats where Heller and Mercer's enemies are weakened and can be easily torn apart once they've been beaten. It's also a staple of basically any game like this. Also, you'd be surprised at how characters don't scale because of this very reason.
You've hardly provided evidence at all, though. "sufficient of a Goliath significantly affecting Heller is its issue and not Mercer's issue as he already displayed to be able to significantly affect Mid-Game Heller with his hits" for the last time, Goliaths can literally impale Heller and you're still arguing that they basically can't do anything against him."
And how weak is that Goliath's limbs and their weakpoints? Because as far as I'm aware, I still have not found any instances in the narrative/lore that says that a Goliath needs to be targeted in their limbs when even shells shot from tanks couldn't do anything to them like you've said (and it's strange that not once has any of the Blackwatch soldiers or armies has tried to target their limbs or weakpoints that are supposedly weak enough that it can even be harmed by military artillery like you've implied). Also, I don't recall any instances of a Goliath's point in their limbs being weak enough that anything can damage it.
Alright, and how many examples of other games that has characters that has failed to scale even if their narrative/lore has shown that they can rip off the limbs or heads of the supposed higher-tiered character? I would like to know if there are a lot of them.
I'm not arguing that a Goliath is unable to harm Heller with its hits (at least, that's not my intent. Guess I should've worded things better before), just that Mercer should not at all be much weaker than it when we literally see him winding Heller with just a few of his hits.
>"The Leader Hunter is only resistant due to its second brain, which Mercer has to break first, implying that he generally sends infected into a recovery state before he absorbs them. Also, Mercer still has to beat enemies to death before he can absorb them, such as Greene, there's no indication that he could simply absorb a Hunter outright."
It didn't state anything about the second brain and spinal column being the very reasons why Mercer can't absorb them, just that it needs to be "weakened" into a "recovery state" to be able to absorb it, with the destruction of its brains and spinal columns as ways to do so. One could argue that their adaptation is limited enough that they have stopped being resistant to Absorption after being weakened into the "recovery state", and that the brains and columns being destroyed are just one of the ways to weaken it to a recovery state. Not like it matters either way, as the Leader Hunters' resistance to Absorption doesn't apply to other infected, as shown by the Evolved lacking resistance to Mercer absorbing them (when we saw that Heller needs to weaken them first in Prototype 2). And being unable to absorb Greene could simply be due to the fact that Mercer doesn't have a viable way to absorb her when she's inside her Mother Form due to her sheer size, especially given that she has green-coloured orbs that homes in on him and damage him, as well as tendrils to strike at him and have the infected within her vicinity attack him.
>"Well, I completely and utterly disagree. No on that compromise."
Then I guess we can keep going around in circles then. "Possibly 8-C" is too low of an 8-C scaling for me to compromise with it from what I can see. I would've made do with "Likely 8-C" at least.
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Okay.
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I've decided not to take another break. Simple, Heller has an extremely hard time piercing the armour, yet he can cut these clearly non-armoured sections like butter. That's just an assumption, and it makes much more sense to be weaker because Heller is always completely and utterly dominated by the Goliath.
I get where you're coming from but that's not the point, it's that the Goliath still does far more damage because they outright impale Heller. Those aren't cutscenes they're animations, it's essentially a finisher and the animation is repeated each and every time he kills a Goliath with no differentiation other than the environment. The head is a weak point, which is why Heller attacks it.
There are no instances where the Goliath's limbs are targeted by Blackwatch, they all just bounce off their armour. Also, the only time we see a Goliath dead at Blackwatch's hand (the predator antigen mission) it's completely and utterly intact, so it's entirely possible they don't know or just aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points. Plus, tanks and helicopter missiles are all weaker than Heller, even if he is Small Building level.
I've already provided them: God of War, Mortal Kombat, Saints Row, and more.
Which makes little to no sense, as I explained. Gameplay is not a reason for Heller not being winded, because even bio-bombs do little to no damage.
I'll conceede on this point about the Leader Hunter, but on every other enemy (aside from humans) Mercer always has to beat them to near-death. Greene had just crawled out of Mother, so there were many viable ways he could've absorbed her. Also, this point was entirely directed at Heller, not Mercer.
Small Building level, possibly Building level seems like a better compromise, IMO.
I get where you're coming from but that's not the point, it's that the Goliath still does far more damage because they outright impale Heller. Those aren't cutscenes they're animations, it's essentially a finisher and the animation is repeated each and every time he kills a Goliath with no differentiation other than the environment. The head is a weak point, which is why Heller attacks it.
There are no instances where the Goliath's limbs are targeted by Blackwatch, they all just bounce off their armour. Also, the only time we see a Goliath dead at Blackwatch's hand (the predator antigen mission) it's completely and utterly intact, so it's entirely possible they don't know or just aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points. Plus, tanks and helicopter missiles are all weaker than Heller, even if he is Small Building level.
I've already provided them: God of War, Mortal Kombat, Saints Row, and more.
Which makes little to no sense, as I explained. Gameplay is not a reason for Heller not being winded, because even bio-bombs do little to no damage.
I'll conceede on this point about the Leader Hunter, but on every other enemy (aside from humans) Mercer always has to beat them to near-death. Greene had just crawled out of Mother, so there were many viable ways he could've absorbed her. Also, this point was entirely directed at Heller, not Mercer.
Small Building level, possibly Building level seems like a better compromise, IMO.
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>"I've decided not to take another break."
Alright.
>"Simple, Heller has an extremely hard time piercing the armour, yet he can cut these clearly non-armoured sections like butter. That's just an assumption, and it makes much more sense to be weaker because Heller is always completely and utterly dominated by the Goliath."
He still ripped off their heads with his bare hands, and it doesn't matter that it was weakened before that. I'm pretty sure one can't just handwave Heller's feat of physically ripping off their heads like that. It's an assumption, but unfortunately, those assumptions are only supported by Game Mechanics rather than explicit statements/quotes and you know how this site treats game mechanics...
>"I get where you're coming from but that's not the point, it's that the Goliath still does far more damage because they outright impale Heller. Those aren't cutscenes they're animations, it's essentially a finisher and the animation is repeated each and every time he kills a Goliath with no differentiation other than the environment. The head is a weak point, which is why Heller attacks it."
I mean, by the end of the game, Mercer was able to outright impale Heller as well. The only difference is that Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer didn't use one of his sharper shapeshifted weapons to impale Heller in that cutscene, whereas a Goliath has one of its smaller arms being able to impale Heller. It is common in fiction for sharp attacks to pierce through their targets when compared to blunt attacks in the same AP range. And well, those animations are gameplay sequences that are activated and doesn't completely rely on the player's actions, as shown by having to mash specific buttons to perform those actions. The fact that Heller literally needs to rip off their heads in order to progress the story pretty much made those animations canonical to the game's narrative/lore, so I don't see why ripping off a Goliath's head shouldn't be a canonical feat to Heller when it's absolutely necessary in order to progress the story. Also, attacking the head proves nothing about weakening the neck and the connection between one's head and their spine. Punching or kicking someone in the head repeatedly does not weaken the spine to allow one to rip someone's head off their body, since one's spinal connection aren't weakened by mere hits to the face/head, thus that's not how it works.
>"There are no instances where the Goliath's limbs are targeted by Blackwatch, they all just bounce off their armour. Also, the only time we see a Goliath dead at Blackwatch's hand (the predator antigen mission) it's completely and utterly intact, so it's entirely possible they don't know or just aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points. Plus, tanks and helicopter missiles are all weaker than Heller, even if he is Small Building level."
If there are no instances of Blackwatch being able to target a Goliath's limbs, then your points of a Goliath's weak points being "weaker to any extent that it should not be 8-C" loses most of its merit. If it's a possiblity that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack those weak points, I don't see how it disapproves that destroying a Goliath's weak points isn't 8-C. The best you can argue is that a Goliath's weak points is unquantifiably below its best durability, which is 8-C and so is still technically 8-C by being unquantifiably weaker than its best durability, which is as far as I can humour that point. Also, tank shells and helicopter missiles are generally 9-A as well, and you've mentioned that it's a possibility that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points, so there's that.
>"I've already provided them: God of War, Mortal Kombat, Saints Row, and more."
Okay... And what are the examples of a character not being able to scale by defeating a supposed higher-tiered character and ripping off their limbs/heads in their game's narrative/lore? If you're talking about random non-canonical match-ups, those tends to be discounted by default due to not being canonical to their franchises' narratives.
>"Which makes little to no sense, as I explained. Gameplay is not a reason for Heller not being winded, because even bio-bombs do little to no damage."
Well, we don't have anyways to quantify their capabilities otherwise, as the cutscenes ((so Mercer winding Heller with a few of his hits are one of the few ways to scale Mercer's AP from that) and killing/finishing animations (such as Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bear hands) after defeating an enemy are the only ways to do so outside of Game Mechanics, and this site tends to not take gameplay mechanics into consideration most of the time. Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer winding Mid-Game Heller, and Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, are the only canonical ways to quantify their AP outside of gameplay mechanics.
>"I'll conceede on this point about the Leader Hunter, but on every other enemy (aside from humans) Mercer always has to beat them to near-death. Greene had just crawled out of Mother, so there were many viable ways he could've absorbed her. Also, this point was entirely directed at Heller, not Mercer."
Alright. As for Mercer always being shown to beat them to near-death, it could be just be for cinematic/narrative effects (he literally consumed that Janitor in the comics just by touch and later consumed multiple Evolved via touch in the second game, whereas the time he consumed Blackwatch soldiers or civilians was when he has to kill them or severely harm them first in the gameplays of Prototype 1). And the only viable ways Mercer could've absorbed Greene can be argued that it was prevented due to the plot. The first time Mercer encountered Greene, he was still inexperienced with his abilities (and I recall that he still thought that he was a human rather than something else at that point of time in the first game) and got heavily stunned by her backhanding him. The second time, he planned to kill Greene by injecting the Parasite into her. After that, she was in her Mother form. One could argue that he pretty much doesn't have an opportunity to viably absorb her due to the plot.
>"Small Building level, possibly Building level seems like a better compromise, IMO."
Possibly: "Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."
Likely: "Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable."
Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, even if you argued that he has to take the time to physically weaken it, fits more on the "favourable" scale than "indeterminate" to me. The compromise I've suggested seems like a better compromise to me than the one you suggested.
Alright.
>"Simple, Heller has an extremely hard time piercing the armour, yet he can cut these clearly non-armoured sections like butter. That's just an assumption, and it makes much more sense to be weaker because Heller is always completely and utterly dominated by the Goliath."
He still ripped off their heads with his bare hands, and it doesn't matter that it was weakened before that. I'm pretty sure one can't just handwave Heller's feat of physically ripping off their heads like that. It's an assumption, but unfortunately, those assumptions are only supported by Game Mechanics rather than explicit statements/quotes and you know how this site treats game mechanics...
>"I get where you're coming from but that's not the point, it's that the Goliath still does far more damage because they outright impale Heller. Those aren't cutscenes they're animations, it's essentially a finisher and the animation is repeated each and every time he kills a Goliath with no differentiation other than the environment. The head is a weak point, which is why Heller attacks it."
I mean, by the end of the game, Mercer was able to outright impale Heller as well. The only difference is that Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer didn't use one of his sharper shapeshifted weapons to impale Heller in that cutscene, whereas a Goliath has one of its smaller arms being able to impale Heller. It is common in fiction for sharp attacks to pierce through their targets when compared to blunt attacks in the same AP range. And well, those animations are gameplay sequences that are activated and doesn't completely rely on the player's actions, as shown by having to mash specific buttons to perform those actions. The fact that Heller literally needs to rip off their heads in order to progress the story pretty much made those animations canonical to the game's narrative/lore, so I don't see why ripping off a Goliath's head shouldn't be a canonical feat to Heller when it's absolutely necessary in order to progress the story. Also, attacking the head proves nothing about weakening the neck and the connection between one's head and their spine. Punching or kicking someone in the head repeatedly does not weaken the spine to allow one to rip someone's head off their body, since one's spinal connection aren't weakened by mere hits to the face/head, thus that's not how it works.
>"There are no instances where the Goliath's limbs are targeted by Blackwatch, they all just bounce off their armour. Also, the only time we see a Goliath dead at Blackwatch's hand (the predator antigen mission) it's completely and utterly intact, so it's entirely possible they don't know or just aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points. Plus, tanks and helicopter missiles are all weaker than Heller, even if he is Small Building level."
If there are no instances of Blackwatch being able to target a Goliath's limbs, then your points of a Goliath's weak points being "weaker to any extent that it should not be 8-C" loses most of its merit. If it's a possiblity that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack those weak points, I don't see how it disapproves that destroying a Goliath's weak points isn't 8-C. The best you can argue is that a Goliath's weak points is unquantifiably below its best durability, which is 8-C and so is still technically 8-C by being unquantifiably weaker than its best durability, which is as far as I can humour that point. Also, tank shells and helicopter missiles are generally 9-A as well, and you've mentioned that it's a possibility that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points, so there's that.
>"I've already provided them: God of War, Mortal Kombat, Saints Row, and more."
Okay... And what are the examples of a character not being able to scale by defeating a supposed higher-tiered character and ripping off their limbs/heads in their game's narrative/lore? If you're talking about random non-canonical match-ups, those tends to be discounted by default due to not being canonical to their franchises' narratives.
>"Which makes little to no sense, as I explained. Gameplay is not a reason for Heller not being winded, because even bio-bombs do little to no damage."
Well, we don't have anyways to quantify their capabilities otherwise, as the cutscenes ((so Mercer winding Heller with a few of his hits are one of the few ways to scale Mercer's AP from that) and killing/finishing animations (such as Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bear hands) after defeating an enemy are the only ways to do so outside of Game Mechanics, and this site tends to not take gameplay mechanics into consideration most of the time. Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer winding Mid-Game Heller, and Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, are the only canonical ways to quantify their AP outside of gameplay mechanics.
>"I'll conceede on this point about the Leader Hunter, but on every other enemy (aside from humans) Mercer always has to beat them to near-death. Greene had just crawled out of Mother, so there were many viable ways he could've absorbed her. Also, this point was entirely directed at Heller, not Mercer."
Alright. As for Mercer always being shown to beat them to near-death, it could be just be for cinematic/narrative effects (he literally consumed that Janitor in the comics just by touch and later consumed multiple Evolved via touch in the second game, whereas the time he consumed Blackwatch soldiers or civilians was when he has to kill them or severely harm them first in the gameplays of Prototype 1). And the only viable ways Mercer could've absorbed Greene can be argued that it was prevented due to the plot. The first time Mercer encountered Greene, he was still inexperienced with his abilities (and I recall that he still thought that he was a human rather than something else at that point of time in the first game) and got heavily stunned by her backhanding him. The second time, he planned to kill Greene by injecting the Parasite into her. After that, she was in her Mother form. One could argue that he pretty much doesn't have an opportunity to viably absorb her due to the plot.
>"Small Building level, possibly Building level seems like a better compromise, IMO."
Possibly: "Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."
Likely: "Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable."
Heller ripping off a Goliath's head with his bare hands, even if you argued that he has to take the time to physically weaken it, fits more on the "favourable" scale than "indeterminate" to me. The compromise I've suggested seems like a better compromise to me than the one you suggested.
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I'm curious about this myself.
ByAsura argued that its validity is questionable because of gameplay mechanics, even though James Heller defeating a Goliath (which is listed as 8-C in this site) is literally the only way for the player to progress throughout the story in Prototype 2 (and killing a Goliath always involves physically ripping off their heads with your bare hands in the end of each fight involving them when you play as James Heller).
ByAsura argued that its validity is questionable because of gameplay mechanics, even though James Heller defeating a Goliath (which is listed as 8-C in this site) is literally the only way for the player to progress throughout the story in Prototype 2 (and killing a Goliath always involves physically ripping off their heads with your bare hands in the end of each fight involving them when you play as James Heller).
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