- 8,821
- 9,404
I think the speed is fine.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Prototype Downgrades: Part 2
- Thread starter ByAsura
- Start date
- Status
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,802
- 7,442
I personally think his existing speed rating is fine, but if it helps speed this along I agree with the rework.
- 8,821
- 9,404
I was talking about the speed scaling you re-posted. Apologies for lack of context.Elizhaa said:
- 8,821
- 9,404
Zamasu Chan said:
Ahem. Can anyone calc this?Zamasu Chan said:
- 2,392
- 318
There's already a calc made to show how much AP is needed to vapourise an ordinary human's body from what I can recall, and the result is on a pretty high-end 9-A. Though given that the early-game Heller could be 8-C, I don't think the vapourisation durability would matter much.
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #90
Where's this 8-C feat. It'd probably scale to Goliaths, Hydras and Mid-Game Prototype 1 Mercer.
He's weaker than Mother, which is essentially a lump of accumulated biomass. It's more likely than not that he can assume the same form.Zamasu Chan said:
- 2,392
- 318
8-C scales to Mid-Game Prototype 1 Mercer? And the Hydras are also 8-C?
Also, I'm pretty sure Prototype 2 Mercer isn't in any way weaker to Elizabeth Greene even in Mother Form, given that Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer effortlessly Mid-Game James Heller (who has endured several hits from a Goliath's attacks, could damage it, and was able to kill a Goliath with his physical strength right after his encounter with Mercer... And I'm pretty sure Goliaths are supposed to be portrayed as the physically strongest infected in the entire game series or something).
Also, I'm pretty sure Prototype 2 Mercer isn't in any way weaker to Elizabeth Greene even in Mother Form, given that Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer effortlessly Mid-Game James Heller (who has endured several hits from a Goliath's attacks, could damage it, and was able to kill a Goliath with his physical strength right after his encounter with Mercer... And I'm pretty sure Goliaths are supposed to be portrayed as the physically strongest infected in the entire game series or something).
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #92
If you're talking about very early game Heller, then it would. Prototype 1 Super Soldiers are more than capable of killing Brawlers and going toe-to-toe with the strongest infected, and Mercer is considered superior. One guide compares Super Soldiers to a Mac Truck and Mercer to a Ferrari.
He incapacitated Heller at best and was going to kill him by taking out the virus. When it didn't work, he fled. Even by the end of the game, Heller's upgrades don't change the balance of power between himself and Goliaths.
He incapacitated Heller at best and was going to kill him by taking out the virus. When it didn't work, he fled. Even by the end of the game, Heller's upgrades don't change the balance of power between himself and Goliaths.
- 2,392
- 318
>He incapacitated Heller at best and was going to kill him by taking out the virus. When it didn't work, he fled
That still doesn't change the fact that Mercer's hits has stunned Heller, considering that Heller wasn't able to retaliate back at all (not even when Mercer was lifting Heller up and was about to kill him)... Which heavily implies that Mercer's strikes actually has meaningful effects on Heller (given that Heller wasn't able to fight back), which already puts him far above the other 9-A infected in Prototype 2 already. As for Mercer fleeing, that could be PIS for all we know, given that Mercer literally says something along the lines of "he was going to make it quick, but he is now going to make Heller suffer" (implying that he plans to draw out Heller's demise) before it eventually leads to Mercer consuming the 8 Evolved for enhancements at the final battle. I don't see how this disapprove Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C, and especially End-Game Prototype 2 Mercer from being 8-C (who battled Heller with his upgrades, even when Heller was shown to be able to sever the limbs of a Goliath and decapitate them. I'm pretty sure harming an 8-C such as Goliaths in such manners would at least scale to a Goliath's AP in some way).
That still doesn't change the fact that Mercer's hits has stunned Heller, considering that Heller wasn't able to retaliate back at all (not even when Mercer was lifting Heller up and was about to kill him)... Which heavily implies that Mercer's strikes actually has meaningful effects on Heller (given that Heller wasn't able to fight back), which already puts him far above the other 9-A infected in Prototype 2 already. As for Mercer fleeing, that could be PIS for all we know, given that Mercer literally says something along the lines of "he was going to make it quick, but he is now going to make Heller suffer" (implying that he plans to draw out Heller's demise) before it eventually leads to Mercer consuming the 8 Evolved for enhancements at the final battle. I don't see how this disapprove Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C, and especially End-Game Prototype 2 Mercer from being 8-C (who battled Heller with his upgrades, even when Heller was shown to be able to sever the limbs of a Goliath and decapitate them. I'm pretty sure harming an 8-C such as Goliaths in such manners would at least scale to a Goliath's AP in some way).
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #94
And the hits of Goliaths are far more meaningful and damaging. They send Heller flying, completely stunned for a few seconds.
That seems like the opposite of PIS. He was going to kill Heller quickly before, but now he plans to make him suffer, which he did.
I don't see anything to prove this. It's a well-known game mechanic of called health bars and weakening. Heller weakens the Goliath's limbs (even with weapons they're normally invulnerable to, like tanks) so much that they fall apart. By this same card, Heller ripped off Mercer's limbs.
I will say that end-game Mercer (Evolved absorbed) should scale, though. He can overpower Mercer in a similar manner and is illustrated as being the most powerful enemy.
That seems like the opposite of PIS. He was going to kill Heller quickly before, but now he plans to make him suffer, which he did.
I don't see anything to prove this. It's a well-known game mechanic of called health bars and weakening. Heller weakens the Goliath's limbs (even with weapons they're normally invulnerable to, like tanks) so much that they fall apart. By this same card, Heller ripped off Mercer's limbs.
I will say that end-game Mercer (Evolved absorbed) should scale, though. He can overpower Mercer in a similar manner and is illustrated as being the most powerful enemy.
- 2,392
- 318
>And the hits of Goliaths are far more meaningful and damaging. They send Heller flying, completely stunned for a few seconds.
Which Heller recovered from shortly after and got back into the fight. When Mercer hit Heller (who was panting from each of the hits), there were several worths of dialogue being exchanged, and it even showed Heller being incapacitated even longer than when he was hit by a Goliath (in fact, Heller was even struggling to wrench Mercer's arm away when Mercer gripped him by the neck after being overpowered... He was even using both of his hands in his struggle). By that logic, Mercer's hits are more meaningful and damaging as Heller was affected by them even longer than a Goliath's does (and was evidently affected by Mercer's hits, as shown by him panting from them), especially when none of a Goliath's hits had such effects to Heller like Mercer's did to him.
>That seems like the opposite of PIS. He was going to kill Heller quickly before, but now he plans to make him suffer, which he did.
Which is PIS as he decided to draw out Heller's demise and make him suffer instead of just killing Heller straight away for being a threat like what a reasonable antagonist would've done, though I'm not sure why you use this as a point to disapprove of Mid-Game Prototype 2 Mercer being 8-C when the reason for why Mercer ran off is because he planned to make Heller suffer.
>I don't see anything to prove this. It's a well-known game mechanic of called health bars and weakening. Heller weakens the Goliath's limbs (even with weapons they're normally invulnerable to, like tanks) so much that they fall apart. By this same card, Heller ripped off Mercer's limbs.
We literally see Heller physically ripping off the head of a Goliath without needing to weaken it like Heller did for the rest of its limbs (followed by a Goliath's body completely exploding in blood for some reason), which definitely scales to 8-C (and you know, ripping off the head that's attached to the spine isn't really that easy, especially compared to just neck-snapping).
Which Heller recovered from shortly after and got back into the fight. When Mercer hit Heller (who was panting from each of the hits), there were several worths of dialogue being exchanged, and it even showed Heller being incapacitated even longer than when he was hit by a Goliath (in fact, Heller was even struggling to wrench Mercer's arm away when Mercer gripped him by the neck after being overpowered... He was even using both of his hands in his struggle). By that logic, Mercer's hits are more meaningful and damaging as Heller was affected by them even longer than a Goliath's does (and was evidently affected by Mercer's hits, as shown by him panting from them), especially when none of a Goliath's hits had such effects to Heller like Mercer's did to him.
>That seems like the opposite of PIS. He was going to kill Heller quickly before, but now he plans to make him suffer, which he did.
Which is PIS as he decided to draw out Heller's demise and make him suffer instead of just killing Heller straight away for being a threat like what a reasonable antagonist would've done, though I'm not sure why you use this as a point to disapprove of Mid-Game Prototype 2 Mercer being 8-C when the reason for why Mercer ran off is because he planned to make Heller suffer.
>I don't see anything to prove this. It's a well-known game mechanic of called health bars and weakening. Heller weakens the Goliath's limbs (even with weapons they're normally invulnerable to, like tanks) so much that they fall apart. By this same card, Heller ripped off Mercer's limbs.
We literally see Heller physically ripping off the head of a Goliath without needing to weaken it like Heller did for the rest of its limbs (followed by a Goliath's body completely exploding in blood for some reason), which definitely scales to 8-C (and you know, ripping off the head that's attached to the spine isn't really that easy, especially compared to just neck-snapping).
- 15,725
- 7,712
I think DeathNoodles's recent points on Mid-Game Alex Mercer being 8-C makes sense; from I what I saw from video, James Hellet looks incap/heavily stuns in the encounter from couple hits from Alex Mercer; when Alex Mercer left, he said he was going to make suffer which doesn't seems like fleeing.
I think case of James Heller fighting a Goliaths and damaging it heavily such as cutting it is limbs, for example, are not Game Mechanics; they are valid Powerscaling feats.
I think case of James Heller fighting a Goliaths and damaging it heavily such as cutting it is limbs, for example, are not Game Mechanics; they are valid Powerscaling feats.
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #97
No he wasn't. He was incapacitated for a few seconds, Mercer attacked again, and overpowered Heller to the point where any resistance was futile. Goliaths can do a similar level of damage and send Heller careening through the air with the mere shockwaves produced from punching a couple metres above the ground (they're massive, so it's like doing the one-inch punch) while they're laying down and half dead.DeathNoodles said:
And the reason he ran off is because he couldn't give Heller a quick death.
No we don't, he always weakens a Goliath. He has to rip off its legs, arm, and attack it in the head before he can win, and even then it's because those spots are smaller and more vulnerable than the rest of its heavily armoured body. It's the same reason why he has to weaken Evolved before he can absorb them.
- 2,392
- 318
>No he wasn't. He was incapacitated for a few seconds, Mercer attacked again, and overpowered Heller to the point where any resistance was futile. Goliaths can do a similar level of damage and send Heller careening through the air with the mere shockwaves produced from punching a couple metres above the ground (they're massive, so it's like doing the one-inch punch) while they're laying down and half dead.
Mercer literally only hit Heller twice throughout the entire scene, he didn't send a flurry of strikes to Heller or anything to imply that a single hit doesn't have a significant effect on Heller. Even Mercer's first hit winded Heller, as shown by Heller's pants, a feat which I recalled that none of the other infected was able to achieve previously (and not even a Goliath right after that encounter) against Mid-Game Heller. Heller was even struggling to stand up, as showcased by when Heller was still shown to be half-kneeling down on the floor right before Mercer hit him the second time, which heavily implies that first hit he received from Mercer was powerful enough that he wasn't able to retaliate back or defend himself in any way. All Mercer's second hit did was wind Heller even more than before and made him pant harder, and Heller already is having difficulty breathing from the first one. When a Goliath hits Heller, he shortly recovers and still got back in the fight with no issue and did not even showcased that he was affected by the hits in any significant way, unlike with Mercer whose hits actually has significant effects on him as demonstrated on Heller's noticeable panting and being unable to fully stand up (unlike even a Goliath's hits, where he always stands up pretty much straight away after he lands on the ground).
Again, by that logic, Mercer's hits would deal more damage than even a Goliath's (doesn't matter if it was just from the shockwaves or not. In fact, there was even an animation in the game where a Goliath impaled Heller with its other arm, yet Heller was no worse for wear after being thrown away from them as shown by him recovering to fight again) due to the fact that Mid-Game Heller has actually got stunned and winded from it when he never suffered such from even a Goliath.
>And the reason he ran off is because he couldn't give Heller a quick death.
Which doesn't disapprove anything about Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer being 8-C, and he literally mentioned that he wanted to make Heller suffer after trying to "make it quick" originally. That implies that him running away from the scene doesn't have any significant connotation behind them or anything as he simply plans to make Heller suffer later, which he did.
>No we don't, he always weakens a Goliath. He has to rip off its legs, arm, and attack it in the head before he can win, and even then it's because those spots are smaller and more vulnerable than the rest of its heavily armoured body. It's the same reason why he has to weaken Evolved before he can absorb them.
Which is still 8-C AP by being able to actually harm an 8-C character enough to sever their limbs, and he literally ripped off a Goliath's head without needing to strike at it repeatedly, with just sheer physical strength (it doesn't matter if it was laying on the ground and weakened, as the durability of its head attached to its spine should not change in any way). Though I don't know why you're bringing up the point of "weakening them first before absorption" when it could possibly just be for cinematic effects, as showcased by when Mercer was shown to be able to absorb his enemies just from his biomass making contact with his targets (without needing to weaken them or anything) like what he did to the Evolved.
Mercer literally only hit Heller twice throughout the entire scene, he didn't send a flurry of strikes to Heller or anything to imply that a single hit doesn't have a significant effect on Heller. Even Mercer's first hit winded Heller, as shown by Heller's pants, a feat which I recalled that none of the other infected was able to achieve previously (and not even a Goliath right after that encounter) against Mid-Game Heller. Heller was even struggling to stand up, as showcased by when Heller was still shown to be half-kneeling down on the floor right before Mercer hit him the second time, which heavily implies that first hit he received from Mercer was powerful enough that he wasn't able to retaliate back or defend himself in any way. All Mercer's second hit did was wind Heller even more than before and made him pant harder, and Heller already is having difficulty breathing from the first one. When a Goliath hits Heller, he shortly recovers and still got back in the fight with no issue and did not even showcased that he was affected by the hits in any significant way, unlike with Mercer whose hits actually has significant effects on him as demonstrated on Heller's noticeable panting and being unable to fully stand up (unlike even a Goliath's hits, where he always stands up pretty much straight away after he lands on the ground).
Again, by that logic, Mercer's hits would deal more damage than even a Goliath's (doesn't matter if it was just from the shockwaves or not. In fact, there was even an animation in the game where a Goliath impaled Heller with its other arm, yet Heller was no worse for wear after being thrown away from them as shown by him recovering to fight again) due to the fact that Mid-Game Heller has actually got stunned and winded from it when he never suffered such from even a Goliath.
>And the reason he ran off is because he couldn't give Heller a quick death.
Which doesn't disapprove anything about Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer being 8-C, and he literally mentioned that he wanted to make Heller suffer after trying to "make it quick" originally. That implies that him running away from the scene doesn't have any significant connotation behind them or anything as he simply plans to make Heller suffer later, which he did.
>No we don't, he always weakens a Goliath. He has to rip off its legs, arm, and attack it in the head before he can win, and even then it's because those spots are smaller and more vulnerable than the rest of its heavily armoured body. It's the same reason why he has to weaken Evolved before he can absorb them.
Which is still 8-C AP by being able to actually harm an 8-C character enough to sever their limbs, and he literally ripped off a Goliath's head without needing to strike at it repeatedly, with just sheer physical strength (it doesn't matter if it was laying on the ground and weakened, as the durability of its head attached to its spine should not change in any way). Though I don't know why you're bringing up the point of "weakening them first before absorption" when it could possibly just be for cinematic effects, as showcased by when Mercer was shown to be able to absorb his enemies just from his biomass making contact with his targets (without needing to weaken them or anything) like what he did to the Evolved.
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #99
He hit him twice, watch the video again. Heller is still incapacitated, and again these are the shockwaves (it does matter if these are the shockwaves, they aren't air bursts, they're against the ground) they produce from hitting the ground, completely launching Heller.
> In fact, there was even a scene where a Goliath impaled Heller with its other arm, yet Heller was no worse for wear after being thrown away from them as shown by him recovering to fight again) due to the fact that Mid-Game Heller has actually got stunned and winded from it when he never suffered such from even a Goliath.
I really shouldn't have to explain why this argument doesn't work.
He harms the Goliath's weak points. He did strike the head repeatedly, enough to kill it. By this logic, Mercer shouldn't have been able to tear Greene to pieces and absorb her. Mercer is enormously powerful, absorbed Greene and had a long time to increase his powers.
> In fact, there was even a scene where a Goliath impaled Heller with its other arm, yet Heller was no worse for wear after being thrown away from them as shown by him recovering to fight again) due to the fact that Mid-Game Heller has actually got stunned and winded from it when he never suffered such from even a Goliath.
I really shouldn't have to explain why this argument doesn't work.
He harms the Goliath's weak points. He did strike the head repeatedly, enough to kill it. By this logic, Mercer shouldn't have been able to tear Greene to pieces and absorb her. Mercer is enormously powerful, absorbed Greene and had a long time to increase his powers.
- 2,392
- 318
>He hit him twice, watch the video again. Heller is still incapacitated, and again these are the shockwaves (it does matter if these are the shockwaves, they aren't air bursts, they're against the ground) they produce from hitting the ground, completely launching Heller.
I literally just said Mercer only ever hit Heller twice throughout that entire encounter, and if Heller was incapacitated from it, then it actually shows that Mercer's hits actually has the power behind them needed to incapacitate and stun Heller. And yet, Heller was able to recover immediately after he lands on the ground when a Goliath hits him. I don't see why this disapproves Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C in any way, given that he completely overpowered Heller (who didn't get any more stronger before he defeated a Goliath after that encounter).
>I really shouldn't have to explain why this argument doesn't work.
It still shows that Heller was not stunned by it at all (even if we include its main arm, it still didn't actually stun Heller at all, and only sent him flying back). The best a Goliath's hits has ever done to Heller is send him flying, it never did stun him like Mercer's hits did to Heller (in fact, Mercer's first hit to Heller also send him flying back as well, with enough velocity that Heller was sliding on the ground with friction after landing).
Say, if you were an adult and a toddler/young child were to punch you in the stomach, it should not have any significant effects on your body such as being out-of-breath and having difficulty breathing. In contrast, if someone else (like a full-grown professional athlete or even just an another adult) were to punch you in the stomach, the wind would definitely get knocked out of your lungs and you would have difficulty breathing.
Attacks that knocks the wind out of you would definitely be superior to attacks that doesn't wind you or have other significant effects to compensate.
>He harms the Goliath's weak points. He did strike the head repeatedly, enough to kill it. By this logic, Mercer shouldn't have been able to tear Greene to pieces and absorb her. Mercer is enormously powerful, absorbed Greene and had a long time to increase his powers.
That one scene of the video I've sent you didn't even include Heller striking that Goliath's neck (maybe I should've reworded it as the connection between the Goliath's head and its spine at the skeletal level, my bad) repeatedly after the kill sequence was initiated, he just straight out ripped off the head by just pulling at it from what I can see. And if Heller was able to damage a Goliath in their limbs enough (which not even tanks can do as you've said) that it gets ripped off, then that shows Heller is at least comparable enough to it to inflict damage.
Also, if Mercer is enormously powerful as you've said and had a long time to increase his powers, then it should not disapprove Prototype 2 Mercer (both his second key and his end-game key) in being 8-C in any way.
I literally just said Mercer only ever hit Heller twice throughout that entire encounter, and if Heller was incapacitated from it, then it actually shows that Mercer's hits actually has the power behind them needed to incapacitate and stun Heller. And yet, Heller was able to recover immediately after he lands on the ground when a Goliath hits him. I don't see why this disapproves Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C in any way, given that he completely overpowered Heller (who didn't get any more stronger before he defeated a Goliath after that encounter).
>I really shouldn't have to explain why this argument doesn't work.
It still shows that Heller was not stunned by it at all (even if we include its main arm, it still didn't actually stun Heller at all, and only sent him flying back). The best a Goliath's hits has ever done to Heller is send him flying, it never did stun him like Mercer's hits did to Heller (in fact, Mercer's first hit to Heller also send him flying back as well, with enough velocity that Heller was sliding on the ground with friction after landing).
Say, if you were an adult and a toddler/young child were to punch you in the stomach, it should not have any significant effects on your body such as being out-of-breath and having difficulty breathing. In contrast, if someone else (like a full-grown professional athlete or even just an another adult) were to punch you in the stomach, the wind would definitely get knocked out of your lungs and you would have difficulty breathing.
Attacks that knocks the wind out of you would definitely be superior to attacks that doesn't wind you or have other significant effects to compensate.
>He harms the Goliath's weak points. He did strike the head repeatedly, enough to kill it. By this logic, Mercer shouldn't have been able to tear Greene to pieces and absorb her. Mercer is enormously powerful, absorbed Greene and had a long time to increase his powers.
That one scene of the video I've sent you didn't even include Heller striking that Goliath's neck (maybe I should've reworded it as the connection between the Goliath's head and its spine at the skeletal level, my bad) repeatedly after the kill sequence was initiated, he just straight out ripped off the head by just pulling at it from what I can see. And if Heller was able to damage a Goliath in their limbs enough (which not even tanks can do as you've said) that it gets ripped off, then that shows Heller is at least comparable enough to it to inflict damage.
Also, if Mercer is enormously powerful as you've said and had a long time to increase his powers, then it should not disapprove Prototype 2 Mercer (both his second key and his end-game key) in being 8-C in any way.
- 227
- 21
I'm think in prototype 1 Alex is able to fragment a Bradley. Apparently that takes 3.73 gigajoules.
- 2,392
- 318
- 227
- 21
I literally played the game like two hours ago, and I vividly remember using that ability to make those massive ass spikes come out of the ground and the Bradley just exploded into small chunks.
- 2,392
- 318
Ah, the Devastators.
Looks like we need some video scenes (like from YouTube) to prove if it did actually fragment them if that is the case.
Looks like we need some video scenes (like from YouTube) to prove if it did actually fragment them if that is the case.
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #106
I thought you said once. Heller was only stunned for a matter of seconds in both instances. They do stun him, he can't even move for a bit afterwards, and Mercer's blows didn't lift him off his feat, careening through the air. Plus, for the final time, this is just from hitting the ground at a very low height, essentially the equivalent to doing the one-inch punch while laying down on the ground.DeathNoodles said:
You're saying that Mercer's attack (which did very little damage in comparison) had more effect than a Goliath outright impaling Heller. This is clearly game mechanics, and we even see it in the first Prototype when the Supreme Hunter's spikes impale Mercer vertically, yet he shruggs it off within seconds.
Once again, by weakening it. Play any game of Mortal Kombat and you'll see how common these are. How is Heller at least comparable to a Goliath? Wouldn't he be at least comparable to Mercer for outright chopping off his arm? I didn't say tanks couldn't do that, I said tanks generally don't hurt them but they can destroy the vulnerable spots, such as the head.
You've barely given enough proof as it is.
- 227
- 21
i Will go looking on YouTube for something. I'm not taking about the Devastators, I'm talking about the attack were he shoves his claws into the ground and creates massive spikes.
- 2,392
- 318
>I thought you said once. Heller was only stunned for a matter of seconds in both instances. They do stun him, he can't even move for a bit afterwards, and Mercer's blows didn't lift him off his feat, careening through the air. Plus, for the final time, this is just from hitting the ground at a very low height, essentially the equivalent to doing the one-inch punch while laying down on the ground.
I said twice, but the first hit has already caused Heller to get winded (the second one just amplifies the pre-existing effect, which the first hit already caused). Also, Heller literally flew back, with his feet off the ground. I recalled that most of the Goliaths hits didn't even send Heller flying upwards in the air, just that he gets sent flying back a bit and then rolling backwards... Which is not impressive of sending Heller flying backwards like you think it is (even that first punch Mercer inflicted on Heller in that cutscene made him fly back fast enough to slide on the ground with friction, which implies that Mercer's punch has made Heller have a bit of a velocity when he flew back). Again, still doesn't change the fact that Heller has shown to be be more notably affected by Mercer's hits than he did against a Goliath's (which we have no showings of it even being able to cause Heller to get winded), as evidenced by his panting.
>You're saying that Mercer's attack (which did very little damage in comparison) had more effect than a Goliath outright impaling Heller. This is clearly game mechanics, and we even see it in the first Prototype when the Supreme Hunter's spikes impale Mercer vertically, yet he shruggs it off within seconds.
And unless we see a Goliath winding Heller or causing any other significant affects on Heller rather than just sending him flying and some health bars (which I'm pretty sure we do not, as the only showings that we see of a Goliath in combat is all gameplay), then yes I'm pretty sure those punches Mercer's did has more effect than the Goliath impaling Heller or knocking him back with its main arm. As for the Supreme Hunter, at least we had a showing of the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer and lifting him off the ground when it was still in the disguise of Robert Cross, which at least already proved that the Supreme Hunter is physically more powerful than the previous infected that Mercer has faced (except for Greene's Mother Form). Albeit Mercer shrugging off Supreme Hunter's spikes is kind of consistent with the fact that Mercer also defeated the Supreme Hunter anyways (Mercer decapitated the Supreme Hunter in the end), so eh. For a Goliath, we don't even have such showings in cutscenes, only gameplay sequences, which still doesn't disprove of Mid-Game James Heller of being 8-C through defeating the Goliath after that encounter with Mercer (and Mercer being 8-C from completely overpowering Heller as well).
>Once again, by weakening it. Play any game of Mortal Kombat and you'll see how common these are. How is Heller at least comparable to a Goliath? Wouldn't he be at least comparable to Mercer for outright chopping off his arm? I didn't say tanks couldn't do that, I said tanks generally don't hurt them but they can destroy the vulnerable spots, such as the head.
Yes, Heller would be comparable to Mercer for chopping off his arm, it's literally what led to him defeating and absorbing Mercer right after. We're talking about superhuman characters with superhuman durability here, and I'm pretty sure you would need to be strong enough at a specific level to be able to inflict damage to a superhuman target (albeit, ordinary people in real life aren't even strong enough to physically rip off other people's limbs barehanded, or punching a person's limb enough to sever them anyways, so there's that).
Vulnerable spots does not mean that those areas are vastly weaker than everything else in their bodies to the extent that anything can damage them. Would a housefly (which is tier 10-C) be able to damage your eyeball (and I'm not talking about irritating your eye, but cause actual significant damage) if it flies to your eye, especially due to your eye being one of the organs that's less durable than virtually the rest of your body (where an ordinary human is 10-B)? I don't think so. And this isn't Mortal Kombat with its own in-verse mechanics, so I'm not even sure why you brought that analogy up.
>You've barely given enough proof as it is.
Mercer completely overpowering Heller is proof enough already, as is Heller being able to both damage it (if Heller is able to weaken a Goliath, then he should be strong enough to inflict damage on it to be able to weaken it in the first place), sever its limbs through damaging it, and ripping off a Goliath's head. Again, I don't see why this disproves Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C.
I said twice, but the first hit has already caused Heller to get winded (the second one just amplifies the pre-existing effect, which the first hit already caused). Also, Heller literally flew back, with his feet off the ground. I recalled that most of the Goliaths hits didn't even send Heller flying upwards in the air, just that he gets sent flying back a bit and then rolling backwards... Which is not impressive of sending Heller flying backwards like you think it is (even that first punch Mercer inflicted on Heller in that cutscene made him fly back fast enough to slide on the ground with friction, which implies that Mercer's punch has made Heller have a bit of a velocity when he flew back). Again, still doesn't change the fact that Heller has shown to be be more notably affected by Mercer's hits than he did against a Goliath's (which we have no showings of it even being able to cause Heller to get winded), as evidenced by his panting.
>You're saying that Mercer's attack (which did very little damage in comparison) had more effect than a Goliath outright impaling Heller. This is clearly game mechanics, and we even see it in the first Prototype when the Supreme Hunter's spikes impale Mercer vertically, yet he shruggs it off within seconds.
And unless we see a Goliath winding Heller or causing any other significant affects on Heller rather than just sending him flying and some health bars (which I'm pretty sure we do not, as the only showings that we see of a Goliath in combat is all gameplay), then yes I'm pretty sure those punches Mercer's did has more effect than the Goliath impaling Heller or knocking him back with its main arm. As for the Supreme Hunter, at least we had a showing of the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer and lifting him off the ground when it was still in the disguise of Robert Cross, which at least already proved that the Supreme Hunter is physically more powerful than the previous infected that Mercer has faced (except for Greene's Mother Form). Albeit Mercer shrugging off Supreme Hunter's spikes is kind of consistent with the fact that Mercer also defeated the Supreme Hunter anyways (Mercer decapitated the Supreme Hunter in the end), so eh. For a Goliath, we don't even have such showings in cutscenes, only gameplay sequences, which still doesn't disprove of Mid-Game James Heller of being 8-C through defeating the Goliath after that encounter with Mercer (and Mercer being 8-C from completely overpowering Heller as well).
>Once again, by weakening it. Play any game of Mortal Kombat and you'll see how common these are. How is Heller at least comparable to a Goliath? Wouldn't he be at least comparable to Mercer for outright chopping off his arm? I didn't say tanks couldn't do that, I said tanks generally don't hurt them but they can destroy the vulnerable spots, such as the head.
Yes, Heller would be comparable to Mercer for chopping off his arm, it's literally what led to him defeating and absorbing Mercer right after. We're talking about superhuman characters with superhuman durability here, and I'm pretty sure you would need to be strong enough at a specific level to be able to inflict damage to a superhuman target (albeit, ordinary people in real life aren't even strong enough to physically rip off other people's limbs barehanded, or punching a person's limb enough to sever them anyways, so there's that).
Vulnerable spots does not mean that those areas are vastly weaker than everything else in their bodies to the extent that anything can damage them. Would a housefly (which is tier 10-C) be able to damage your eyeball (and I'm not talking about irritating your eye, but cause actual significant damage) if it flies to your eye, especially due to your eye being one of the organs that's less durable than virtually the rest of your body (where an ordinary human is 10-B)? I don't think so. And this isn't Mortal Kombat with its own in-verse mechanics, so I'm not even sure why you brought that analogy up.
>You've barely given enough proof as it is.
Mercer completely overpowering Heller is proof enough already, as is Heller being able to both damage it (if Heller is able to weaken a Goliath, then he should be strong enough to inflict damage on it to be able to weaken it in the first place), sever its limbs through damaging it, and ripping off a Goliath's head. Again, I don't see why this disproves Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer from being 8-C.
- 2,392
- 318
I'll wait for it then. But if we can't reach an agreement out of this, then we can just simply agree to disagree and let the others vote with or against the 8-C Heller and Mercer point.
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #111
Here's what happens when he attacks a fully defended Goliath; he gets sent upwards many, many metres and incapacitated until he hits the ground, and here's an even stronger versio that takes away a massive portion (20% at this player's level) of Heller's health. They can, once again, do this with the smallest amount of leverage and by creating a shockwave on the ground below, even with half their body gone.DeathNoodles said:
As for the Supreme Hunter, at least we had a showing of the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer and lifting him off the ground when it was still in the disguise of Robert Cross, which at least already proved that the Supreme Hunter is physically more powerful than the previous infected that Mercer has faced (except for Greene's Mother Form). For a Goliath, we don't even have such showings in cutscenes, only gameplay sequences, which still doesn't disprove of Mid-Game James Heller of being 8-C through defeating the Goliath after that encounter with Mercer (and Mercer being 8-C from completely overpowering Heller as well).
My point with the Supreme Hunter was to show that impaling Mercer has little to no effect on him either, so it's most likely game mechanics, such as being killed by a thermobaric bomb or the adrenaline rush. You just said he was impaled, which happens when the Goliath manages to catch Heller with its left arm.
Yes, Heller would be comparable to Mercer for chopping off his arm, it's literally what led to him defeating and absorbing Mercer right after. We're talking about superhuman characters with superhuman durability here, and I'm pretty sure you would need to be strong enough at a specific level to be able to inflict damage to a superhuman target (albeit, ordinary people in real life aren't even strong enough to physically rip off other people's limbs barehanded, or punching a person's limb enough to sever them anyways, so there's that).
You said Heller is at least comparable to the Goliath for chopping off it's limbs. Also, he's not comparable to Mercer (as in around equal, something like 2 or 3x weaker is fine), the latter has the speed and power advantage throughout the fight, and not by a small margin either.
Vulnerable spots does not mean that those areas are vastly weaker than everything else in their bodies to the extent that anything can damage them. Would a housefly (which is tier 10-C) be able to damage your eyeball (and I'm not talking about irritating your eye, but cause actual significant damage) if it flies to your eye, especially due to your eye being one of the organs that's less durable than virtually the rest of your body (where an ordinary human is 10-B)? I don't think so. And this isn't Mortal Kombat with its own in-verse mechanics, so I'm not even sure why you brought that analogy up.
Your average house fly weighs less than 0.02 grams on average. I get what you mean here but maybe choose a better example. Why can't the Goliath's weak point be a few times weaker than Building level. Even the largest gap between baseline Building level and Small Building level is only 50 times, and Heller is fairly high-end. Also, the fact that Heller can one-shot those weak points but do hardly any damage to a Goliath otherwise and be grossly overpowered seems to support my point.
Mortal Kombat was brought up as an example of game characters consistently tearing each other apart while weakened. It's not an analogy, it's a trope. Play God of War, Saints Row IV, or pretty much any MA fighting game.
- 8,752
- 1,616
Gonna have to agree with Asura, mainly because of the massive difference between Heller actually attacking any of the weak points and attacking anywhere else, and the fact he gets ragdolled and hurt by the things barely even doing much.
I think a better example would be any of the Resident Evil Fights. Only the rocket they usually use at the end even scales to most final bosses, otherwise they are aiming for very obvious weak points to deal any damage (the heart in any of the Tyrants is the most blatant example).
I think a better example would be any of the Resident Evil Fights. Only the rocket they usually use at the end even scales to most final bosses, otherwise they are aiming for very obvious weak points to deal any damage (the heart in any of the Tyrants is the most blatant example).
- 2,392
- 318
>Here's what happens when he attacks a fully defended Goliath; he gets sent upwards many, many metres and incapacitated until he hits the ground, and here's an even stronger version that takes away a massive portion (20% at this player's level) of Heller's health. They can, once again, do this with the smallest amount of leverage and by creating a shockwave on the ground below, even with half their body gone.
The first example of that video where Heller supposedly "gets sent very high in the air" was when the player playing as Heller was already trying to attack the Goliath while in mid-air (Heller was literally already in the air before he got smacked away, which is such a flawed way to compare to Mercer's first hit against Heller in that encounter when Mercer's first punch literally sent Heller flying back, sliding on the ground from the velocity of his body getting moved back, and getting winded from that punch). And even then, Heller got straight back up from the ground immediately after he landed. Heller doesn't even get sent anywhere near that high upwards when a Goliath normally hits Heller on the ground in the gameplay. As for the second example... By that logic, Robert Cross' Grenade Launchers, which also took away around 20% of Mercer's health and sent him flying back, should deal significant damage to him as well... Even though Mercer regularly tanks/physically blocks attacks from grenade launchers with no noticeable damage and doesn't even get knocked back in the least in the cutscenes and outside of the gameplay. Powerscaling via health bars of gameplay mechanics, especially in Prototype, are not reliable like you think it is; Powerscaling from health bars of gameplay isn't even remotely comparable to Powerscaling to cutscene sequences like the Q to Es mechanics (such as when the game specifically instructs the player to mash specific buttons for the character to perform those actions) in gameplay or the cutscene animations themselves.
>My point with the Supreme Hunter was to show that impaling Mercer has little to no effect on him either, so it's most likely game mechanics, such as being killed by a thermobaric bomb or the adrenaline rush. You just said he was impaled, which happens when the Goliath manages to catch Heller with its left arm.
Well, it's hard to powerscale from the gameplay, but at least the Supreme Hunter has a showing of some kind of superiority to a character like Mercer. The same doesn't even apply for the Goliaths outside of their Building level feats as they have only shown attacks that Heller himself has shrugged off with no true significant effects, and that's only in the gameplay rather than in the cutscenes like the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer.
>You said Heller is at least comparable to the Goliath for chopping off it's limbs. Also, he's not comparable to Mercer (as in around equal, something like 2 or 3x weaker is fine), the latter has the speed and power advantage throughout the fight, and not by a small margin either.
If you as the player, are repeatedly landing successful attacks against Mercer as James Heller, it was shown by the quotes that James Heller would actually taunt Mercer for being weak and an easy challenge (in contrast, if you aren't doing so well against Mercer in the final fight and have Mercer's attacks land on you a lot, it would be the opposite where Mercer taunts you for being weak instead and condescendingly gives you tips). No matter how you look at it, how these two characters being more powerful than the other is up to the Player's actions as James Heller (if you are doing well and land a lot of attacks on Mercer, Heller would taunt and look down on Mercer, while it would be vice versa if you are doing bad and get the attacks land on you a lot by Mercer), so the best we can do is make both of these two just being comparable to each other to avoid headaches.
Also, relatively speaking, people in real life (especially ordinary ones) aren't even capable of ripping/punching each each other's limbs off or decapitating each other by pulling at their heads hard enough. Being superhuman characters, it would only be logical to assume that the Prototype Infected would have the durability of their skeletal system and overall tissue being much tougher as well, and should relatively be harder for them to perform such feats if they are at equal/comparable AP and strength. Heller damaging the Goliath's limbs until it gets ripped off or him physically ripping off a Goliath's head already puts him as 8-C by default as he was able to bypass the durability of their skeletal structures.
>Your average house fly weighs less than 0.02 grams on average. I get what you mean here but maybe choose a better example. Why can't the Goliath's weak point be a few times weaker than Building level. Even the largest gap between baseline Building level and Small Building level is only 50 times, and Heller is fairly high-end. Also, the fact that Heller can one-shot those weak points but do hardly any damage to a Goliath otherwise and be grossly overpowered seems to support my point.
Because gaps around 2-5 times in strength does not even allow real life people to be strong enough to rip each other's limbs off from what I can see (much more so when they are supposed to be physically comparable enough in AP). If anything, the limb severing/head ripping would put somewhere at the same AP as the durability of the victim at the very worst.
>Mortal Kombat was brought up as an example of game characters consistently tearing each other apart while weakened. It's not an analogy, it's a trope. Play God of War, Saints Row IV, or pretty much any MA fighting game.
I don't see how ripping off the limbs/head of the supposedly higher-tiered character wouldn't also have to give the supposedly lower-tiered character comparable AP. One would have to have a good enough AP to bypass the durability of a specific superhuman character to rip off their limbs/head in such ways (and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works). Also, false equivalence as Prototype isn't an MA game or a game genre like Mortal Kombat (Prototype isn't even a fighting tournament game, so I don't know why you decided to make an analogy between Prototype and these games).
The first example of that video where Heller supposedly "gets sent very high in the air" was when the player playing as Heller was already trying to attack the Goliath while in mid-air (Heller was literally already in the air before he got smacked away, which is such a flawed way to compare to Mercer's first hit against Heller in that encounter when Mercer's first punch literally sent Heller flying back, sliding on the ground from the velocity of his body getting moved back, and getting winded from that punch). And even then, Heller got straight back up from the ground immediately after he landed. Heller doesn't even get sent anywhere near that high upwards when a Goliath normally hits Heller on the ground in the gameplay. As for the second example... By that logic, Robert Cross' Grenade Launchers, which also took away around 20% of Mercer's health and sent him flying back, should deal significant damage to him as well... Even though Mercer regularly tanks/physically blocks attacks from grenade launchers with no noticeable damage and doesn't even get knocked back in the least in the cutscenes and outside of the gameplay. Powerscaling via health bars of gameplay mechanics, especially in Prototype, are not reliable like you think it is; Powerscaling from health bars of gameplay isn't even remotely comparable to Powerscaling to cutscene sequences like the Q to Es mechanics (such as when the game specifically instructs the player to mash specific buttons for the character to perform those actions) in gameplay or the cutscene animations themselves.
>My point with the Supreme Hunter was to show that impaling Mercer has little to no effect on him either, so it's most likely game mechanics, such as being killed by a thermobaric bomb or the adrenaline rush. You just said he was impaled, which happens when the Goliath manages to catch Heller with its left arm.
Well, it's hard to powerscale from the gameplay, but at least the Supreme Hunter has a showing of some kind of superiority to a character like Mercer. The same doesn't even apply for the Goliaths outside of their Building level feats as they have only shown attacks that Heller himself has shrugged off with no true significant effects, and that's only in the gameplay rather than in the cutscenes like the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer.
>You said Heller is at least comparable to the Goliath for chopping off it's limbs. Also, he's not comparable to Mercer (as in around equal, something like 2 or 3x weaker is fine), the latter has the speed and power advantage throughout the fight, and not by a small margin either.
If you as the player, are repeatedly landing successful attacks against Mercer as James Heller, it was shown by the quotes that James Heller would actually taunt Mercer for being weak and an easy challenge (in contrast, if you aren't doing so well against Mercer in the final fight and have Mercer's attacks land on you a lot, it would be the opposite where Mercer taunts you for being weak instead and condescendingly gives you tips). No matter how you look at it, how these two characters being more powerful than the other is up to the Player's actions as James Heller (if you are doing well and land a lot of attacks on Mercer, Heller would taunt and look down on Mercer, while it would be vice versa if you are doing bad and get the attacks land on you a lot by Mercer), so the best we can do is make both of these two just being comparable to each other to avoid headaches.
Also, relatively speaking, people in real life (especially ordinary ones) aren't even capable of ripping/punching each each other's limbs off or decapitating each other by pulling at their heads hard enough. Being superhuman characters, it would only be logical to assume that the Prototype Infected would have the durability of their skeletal system and overall tissue being much tougher as well, and should relatively be harder for them to perform such feats if they are at equal/comparable AP and strength. Heller damaging the Goliath's limbs until it gets ripped off or him physically ripping off a Goliath's head already puts him as 8-C by default as he was able to bypass the durability of their skeletal structures.
>Your average house fly weighs less than 0.02 grams on average. I get what you mean here but maybe choose a better example. Why can't the Goliath's weak point be a few times weaker than Building level. Even the largest gap between baseline Building level and Small Building level is only 50 times, and Heller is fairly high-end. Also, the fact that Heller can one-shot those weak points but do hardly any damage to a Goliath otherwise and be grossly overpowered seems to support my point.
Because gaps around 2-5 times in strength does not even allow real life people to be strong enough to rip each other's limbs off from what I can see (much more so when they are supposed to be physically comparable enough in AP). If anything, the limb severing/head ripping would put somewhere at the same AP as the durability of the victim at the very worst.
>Mortal Kombat was brought up as an example of game characters consistently tearing each other apart while weakened. It's not an analogy, it's a trope. Play God of War, Saints Row IV, or pretty much any MA fighting game.
I don't see how ripping off the limbs/head of the supposedly higher-tiered character wouldn't also have to give the supposedly lower-tiered character comparable AP. One would have to have a good enough AP to bypass the durability of a specific superhuman character to rip off their limbs/head in such ways (and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works). Also, false equivalence as Prototype isn't an MA game or a game genre like Mortal Kombat (Prototype isn't even a fighting tournament game, so I don't know why you decided to make an analogy between Prototype and these games).
- 2,392
- 318
Alright then:LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
DeathNoodles said:
Also, Resident Evil tends to have weapons that are above the human characters' own physical attack potency to deal damage to their infected enemies even for those weak points, and it doesn't help that bullets from guns are shown to hurt incredibly durable superhuman enemies that are higher than what the guns actual AP are as a trope in fiction.DeathNoodles said:
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #115
Heller has air-dash, which allows him to break out of being hit by a missile in mid air. Also, overpowering the energy of someone falling and launching them a high distance takes more power than throwing someone a few metres, not that this matters to Small Building level characters. Given the distance between Mercer and Heller in this scene, it's roughtly the same distance as a Goliath's mere shockwaves. I suppose I'll agree here, but this goes both ways.DeathNoodles said:
Well, it's hard to powerscale from the gameplay, but at least the Supreme Hunter has a showing of some kind of superiority to a character like Mercer. The same doesn't even apply for the Goliath outside of its Building level feats as it has only shown attacks that Heller himself, and that's only in the gameplay rather than in the cutscenes like the Supreme Hunter overpowering Mercer.
The Goliath always throws Heller around like it's nothing, even by placing its arm across the street and running or just punching the ground. It's clear the Goliaths are vastly superior to Heller.
If you as the player, are repeatedly landing successful attacks against Mercer as James Heller, it was shown by the quotes that James Heller would actually taunt Mercer for being weak and an easy challenge (in contrast, if you aren't doing so well against Mercer in the final fight and have Mercer's attacks land on you a lot, it would be the opposite where Mercer taunts you for being weak instead and condescendingly gives you tips).
They're not comparable though, Mercer overpowers Heller with the same weapons and grabs him with his whipfist if he tries to escape, taking off massive portions of his health. Taunting doesn't prove anything, Heller can also heavily damage Mercer.
Also, relatively speaking, people in real life (especially ordinary ones) aren't even capable of ripping/punching each each other's limbs off or decapitating each other by pulling at their heads hard enough. Heller damaging the Goliath's limbs until it gets ripped off or him physically ripping off a Goliath's head already puts him as 8-C by default as he was able to bypass the durability of their skeletal structures.
Because gaps around 2-5 times in strength does not even allow real life people to be strong enough to rip each other's limbs off from what I can see. If anything, the limb severing/head ripping would put somewhere at the same AP as the durability of the victim at the very worst.
This isn't real life. Yes, by weakening them heavily.
I don't see how ripping off the limbs/head of the supposedly higher-tiered character wouldn't also have to give the supposedly lower-tiered character comparable AP. One would have to have a good enough AP to bypass the durability of a specific superhuman character to rip off their limbs/head in such ways (and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works). Also, false equivalence as Prototype isn't an MA game or a game genre like Mortal Kombat (Prototype isn't even a fighting tournament game, so I don't know why you decided to make an analogy between Prototype and these games).
Could you rephrase this, I just can't understand your point, no offence. Prototype 2 is rated MA, and Mortal Kombat was literally the only fighting game I added there. Plus, you're completely ignoring that this is a staple of Prototype 1; Mercer would always absorb an opponent (even the half-dead Greene in a cutscene) by beating them to death.
"and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works." Heller and Mercer don't have actual bones or organs, they have bio-mass-like versions.
- 2,392
- 318
>Heller has air-dash, which allows him to break out of being hit by a missile in mid air. Also, overpowering the energy of someone falling and launching them a high distance takes more power than throwing someone a few metres, not that this matters to Small Building level characters. Given the distance between Mercer and Heller in this scene, it's roughtly the same distance as a Goliath's mere shockwaves. I suppose I'll agree here, but this goes both ways.
I don't see how James' body weight (which is 225 lbs) and him get knocked back from falling on the Goliath proves anything about being superior to knocking someone flying several meters back by knocking them slightly upwards would matter against superhuman characters (also, that scene where you showcase the the Goliath knocked Heller out of the air didn't even showcased that the Goliath actually knocked Heller back in the correct way, as it showed an animation of the Goliath trying to drop itself on Heller but Heller ends up getting knocked back as if he was swatted away instead rather than having an effect of a gigantic being fall on him for some reason), but that logic isn't unfounded I guess. Still doesn't change the fact that Heller didn't get winded from a Goliath's hits, unlike Mercer's hits. You can argue that it's an unfair standard to use as an example as the Goliaths has never been shown to combat Heller in the cutscenes outside of just gameplay, but it still doesn't change the fact that the feat of showcasing that Heller getting significantly affected by a Goliath's hits (and I'm not talking about things such as getting sent flying back, or the gameplay mechanics health bars dropping, but him actually showcasing he got significantly affected such as panting from a Goliath's hits or similar) is absent.
>The Goliath always throws Heller around like it's nothing, even by placing its arm across the street and running or just punching the ground. It's clear the Goliaths are vastly superior to Heller.
Same thing for Mercer flinging Heller back with an effortless hit to his chest with Mercer's tendrils, albeit Heller actually shows he got significantly affected by that punch such as being winded from them whereas he doesn't even appear to be significantly affected by a Goliath's hits at all. And even then, Heller is still shown to be able to rip off the head of a Goliath once the opportunity arises, and a Goliath is shown to have 8-C durability. Ripping off the head of a 8-C character should give comparable enough 8-C AP by default.
>They're not comparable though, Mercer overpowers Heller with the same weapons and grabs him with his whipfist if he tries to escape, taking off massive portions of his health. Taunting doesn't prove anything, Heller can also heavily damage Mercer.
There was literally a gameplay of someone playing Prototype 2 where Heller was repeatedly taunting Mercer and was stated that Mercer was an easy obstacle when the player does well in the fight. Heller also inflicted who knows how many strikes against Heller, and defeated end-game Mercer in the end. I don't see why they can't scale to each other.
>Could you rephrase this, I just can't understand your point, no offence. Prototype 2 is rated MA, and Mortal Kombat was literally the only fighting game I added there. Plus, you're completely ignoring that this is a staple of Prototype 1; Mercer would always absorb an opponent (even the half-dead Greene in a cutscene) by beating them to death.
When you said "MA games" I thought you said Martial Arts games, and I was confused for a minute but continued through anyways, so I didn't figure out that you meant Mature Audience rated games (lol). Either way, I don't see why comparing limb/head ripping to other games would make a character not be able to have comparable AP. Also, that staple of "needing to weaken/beat an opponent into submission" is contradicted by that one scene in the Prototype 1 comics where Mercer absorbed a target upon just touching them, or when that's also contradicted in Prototype 2 (yes, I know this is not Prototype 1, but it's still cano, so the logic from Prototype 2 still applies anyways; especially when we have been given no evidence that suggests that characters like Mercer specifically needs to weaken a target first to absorb them) when Mercer just plain absorbed though Evolved upon his tendrils touching them without needing to weaken/beat them into submission or anything, he just touches them.
>"and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works." Heller and Mercer don't have actual bones or organs, they have bio-mass-like versions.
Similar enough structures and appearances (especially given we see Mercer's skeleton when he regenerated in Prototype 1 and the ilk) means similar functions and properties until the series heavily suggests otherwise, which I'm sure it doesn't (even if we take certain leeways such as Mercer not needing internal organs to operate via his feat of being able to walk around with a huge hole in his head/brain, I'm sure that it still doesn't discount the durability of bones and their skeletal connections anyways as the Prototype series doesn't suggests such).
I don't see how James' body weight (which is 225 lbs) and him get knocked back from falling on the Goliath proves anything about being superior to knocking someone flying several meters back by knocking them slightly upwards would matter against superhuman characters (also, that scene where you showcase the the Goliath knocked Heller out of the air didn't even showcased that the Goliath actually knocked Heller back in the correct way, as it showed an animation of the Goliath trying to drop itself on Heller but Heller ends up getting knocked back as if he was swatted away instead rather than having an effect of a gigantic being fall on him for some reason), but that logic isn't unfounded I guess. Still doesn't change the fact that Heller didn't get winded from a Goliath's hits, unlike Mercer's hits. You can argue that it's an unfair standard to use as an example as the Goliaths has never been shown to combat Heller in the cutscenes outside of just gameplay, but it still doesn't change the fact that the feat of showcasing that Heller getting significantly affected by a Goliath's hits (and I'm not talking about things such as getting sent flying back, or the gameplay mechanics health bars dropping, but him actually showcasing he got significantly affected such as panting from a Goliath's hits or similar) is absent.
>The Goliath always throws Heller around like it's nothing, even by placing its arm across the street and running or just punching the ground. It's clear the Goliaths are vastly superior to Heller.
Same thing for Mercer flinging Heller back with an effortless hit to his chest with Mercer's tendrils, albeit Heller actually shows he got significantly affected by that punch such as being winded from them whereas he doesn't even appear to be significantly affected by a Goliath's hits at all. And even then, Heller is still shown to be able to rip off the head of a Goliath once the opportunity arises, and a Goliath is shown to have 8-C durability. Ripping off the head of a 8-C character should give comparable enough 8-C AP by default.
>They're not comparable though, Mercer overpowers Heller with the same weapons and grabs him with his whipfist if he tries to escape, taking off massive portions of his health. Taunting doesn't prove anything, Heller can also heavily damage Mercer.
There was literally a gameplay of someone playing Prototype 2 where Heller was repeatedly taunting Mercer and was stated that Mercer was an easy obstacle when the player does well in the fight. Heller also inflicted who knows how many strikes against Heller, and defeated end-game Mercer in the end. I don't see why they can't scale to each other.
>Could you rephrase this, I just can't understand your point, no offence. Prototype 2 is rated MA, and Mortal Kombat was literally the only fighting game I added there. Plus, you're completely ignoring that this is a staple of Prototype 1; Mercer would always absorb an opponent (even the half-dead Greene in a cutscene) by beating them to death.
When you said "MA games" I thought you said Martial Arts games, and I was confused for a minute but continued through anyways, so I didn't figure out that you meant Mature Audience rated games (lol). Either way, I don't see why comparing limb/head ripping to other games would make a character not be able to have comparable AP. Also, that staple of "needing to weaken/beat an opponent into submission" is contradicted by that one scene in the Prototype 1 comics where Mercer absorbed a target upon just touching them, or when that's also contradicted in Prototype 2 (yes, I know this is not Prototype 1, but it's still cano, so the logic from Prototype 2 still applies anyways; especially when we have been given no evidence that suggests that characters like Mercer specifically needs to weaken a target first to absorb them) when Mercer just plain absorbed though Evolved upon his tendrils touching them without needing to weaken/beat them into submission or anything, he just touches them.
>"and no, weakening someone by punching someone repeatedly until you can rip their limbs/head off doesn't mean that the connection between their limbs/head and skeleton gets weaker, as that's not how the skeletal system works." Heller and Mercer don't have actual bones or organs, they have bio-mass-like versions.
Similar enough structures and appearances (especially given we see Mercer's skeleton when he regenerated in Prototype 1 and the ilk) means similar functions and properties until the series heavily suggests otherwise, which I'm sure it doesn't (even if we take certain leeways such as Mercer not needing internal organs to operate via his feat of being able to walk around with a huge hole in his head/brain, I'm sure that it still doesn't discount the durability of bones and their skeletal connections anyways as the Prototype series doesn't suggests such).
- 22,043
- 18,127
- Thread starter
- #117
This could be gameplay mechanics, tbf. Heller doesn't even have stamina or half his normal powers in-game.
I've already explained this, the Goliaths are weakened. Heller can't normally rip off their head.
I didn't say they don't scale (the gap isn't like 5x) just that they're not equals. Mercer is certainly much stronger.
Ok. Mercer absorbed a human target instantly, Heller can do exactly the same in Prototype 2. Also, it's irrelevant because Heller does weaken Goliaths in order to absorb them.
It does, because even normally fatal damage like being shot right through (at a time where both Heller and Mercer were vulnerable to bullets) and impaled or cut to ribbons does pretty much nothing, even without regenerating. One exception is early game, when Mercer was already heavily injured and had just awakened.
I've already explained this, the Goliaths are weakened. Heller can't normally rip off their head.
I didn't say they don't scale (the gap isn't like 5x) just that they're not equals. Mercer is certainly much stronger.
Ok. Mercer absorbed a human target instantly, Heller can do exactly the same in Prototype 2. Also, it's irrelevant because Heller does weaken Goliaths in order to absorb them.
It does, because even normally fatal damage like being shot right through (at a time where both Heller and Mercer were vulnerable to bullets) and impaled or cut to ribbons does pretty much nothing, even without regenerating. One exception is early game, when Mercer was already heavily injured and had just awakened.
- 2,392
- 318
>This could be gameplay mechanics, tbf. Heller doesn't even have stamina or half his normal powers in-game.
But he still got winded from Mercer's hits in the cutscene of that encounter (so there is not even a way to disapprove that Heller getting winded from Mercer's punches is some gameplay mechanics, as it happened in a cutscene, unlike the Goliaths), and even if you handwave it off as gameplay mechanics for a Goliath's hits to Heller, it still doesn't change the fact that the Goliaths lacks any cutscene/lore feats of being able to significantly affect Heller with their hits like Mercer's did.
I don't see how punching someone in the head would mean that the connection between their head and spine gets weakened, especially when we saw no evidence that the connections between the heads of the Goliaths and their necks gets weakened at the skeletal level (we don't even have any statements that Heller's attacks has shattered/damaged its bones significantly or anything). Hitting someone in the face/chest does not mean that their neck/spine gets weakened enough that you can rip their head that's attached to their spine.
>Ok. Mercer absorbed a human target instantly, Heller can do exactly the same in Prototype 2. Also, it's irrelevant because Heller does weaken Goliaths in order to absorb them.
And Mercer has also absorbed multiple Evolved via touch at once, whom are Blacklight beings that are far above any mere human, and he didn't need to weaken them to absorb them. Mercer's absorption doesn't even depend on him needing to weaken his targets, especially with feats such as absorbing a human via touch and absorbing an superhuman Infected via touch, especially outside of the gameplay. The existence of those feats implies that weakening targets to absorb them could just be because of gameplay mechanics and/or cinematic effects. Either way, it doesn't matter for Goliaths as you've said, as Mercer's absorption feats aren't even applicable for Heller until after he absorbs Mercer at least.
>It does, because even normally fatal damage like being shot right through (at a time where both Heller and Mercer were vulnerable to bullets) and impaled or cut to ribbons does pretty much nothing, even without regenerating. One exception is early game, when Mercer was already heavily injured and had just awakened.
That only proves that the characters have superhuman resilience and endurance, not that their internal organs and skeletal systems operates in such ways that the entire functions is completely different from an ordinary creature's to the extent that the durability of their biomass-like bones is nonexistent or something.
But he still got winded from Mercer's hits in the cutscene of that encounter (so there is not even a way to disapprove that Heller getting winded from Mercer's punches is some gameplay mechanics, as it happened in a cutscene, unlike the Goliaths), and even if you handwave it off as gameplay mechanics for a Goliath's hits to Heller, it still doesn't change the fact that the Goliaths lacks any cutscene/lore feats of being able to significantly affect Heller with their hits like Mercer's did.
I don't see how punching someone in the head would mean that the connection between their head and spine gets weakened, especially when we saw no evidence that the connections between the heads of the Goliaths and their necks gets weakened at the skeletal level (we don't even have any statements that Heller's attacks has shattered/damaged its bones significantly or anything). Hitting someone in the face/chest does not mean that their neck/spine gets weakened enough that you can rip their head that's attached to their spine.
>Ok. Mercer absorbed a human target instantly, Heller can do exactly the same in Prototype 2. Also, it's irrelevant because Heller does weaken Goliaths in order to absorb them.
And Mercer has also absorbed multiple Evolved via touch at once, whom are Blacklight beings that are far above any mere human, and he didn't need to weaken them to absorb them. Mercer's absorption doesn't even depend on him needing to weaken his targets, especially with feats such as absorbing a human via touch and absorbing an superhuman Infected via touch, especially outside of the gameplay. The existence of those feats implies that weakening targets to absorb them could just be because of gameplay mechanics and/or cinematic effects. Either way, it doesn't matter for Goliaths as you've said, as Mercer's absorption feats aren't even applicable for Heller until after he absorbs Mercer at least.
>It does, because even normally fatal damage like being shot right through (at a time where both Heller and Mercer were vulnerable to bullets) and impaled or cut to ribbons does pretty much nothing, even without regenerating. One exception is early game, when Mercer was already heavily injured and had just awakened.
That only proves that the characters have superhuman resilience and endurance, not that their internal organs and skeletal systems operates in such ways that the entire functions is completely different from an ordinary creature's to the extent that the durability of their biomass-like bones is nonexistent or something.
- 2,392
- 318
Alright. I might need to sleep soon, so it might take a while for me to reply to your upcoming responses once I sleep, just to let you know.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
