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Prosciutto vs Chrollo

This fight's result is heavily based on location. With prep, Proscuitto would normally spend the time shutting down sources of cooling, but its rather impractical in a place like Central Park, so he would rather focus on aging nearby people and himself so as to not appear as a threat, essentially what he did against the Part 5 gang on the train. So, unless Chrollo has a way of finding out possible sources of the threat and/or he uses Nen crush indiscriminately on all the people in Central Park, he might age beyond fighting capacity. There's water bodies and stuff in the vicinity for cooling down but Chrollo wouldn't know that he can use them.

Its kinda dependant on how quickly Chrollo can find the hiding Proscuitto but The Grateful Dead has a fairly large range and with how crowded Central Park usually is, he's gonna have a hard time hunting down Proscuitto.

Am not voting yet but leaning Proscuitto.
 
Should mention the range on the Grateful Dead is wrong (The dozen of meters thing). It can effect the entire train from head to tail, a superliner no less, with at least 12 cars that I could count. One car being 25 meters in length on average. Meaning, The Grateful Dead has a AOE with a diameter of at least 310.92 meters. It's probably bit more as well, not by much though.
 
Just saying, Chrollo literally does not give 2 ***** about collateral because he sees other people as nothing more than tools to be used. He will go on an indiscriminate carnage until the effect stops, and it's very likely for Chrollo to spam Sun and Moon and keep using AOE blasts to kill people.

I also wonder if Ten means the Grateful Dead's effect will take longer because Nen users live a lot longer than normal humans.
 
>Chrollo literally does not give 2 ***** about collateral because he sees other people as nothing more than tools to be used.

That's true, but doing that is a shit plan which is gonna backfire, his best bet is to use a puppet and have the puppet attack and search in his stead as movement, actions and the like generate body heat, even if only a bit, which quicken the effect.

>it's very likely for Chrollo to spam Sun and Moon and keep using AOE blasts to kill people

This right there is likely why he'd lose, Sun and Moon is the absolute worst thing he could possibly do, Sun and Moon creates explosions, explosions create heat (a lot given it ******* cooked Hisoka's face and charred him), heat accelerates The Grateful Dead, if Chrollo used Sun and Moon, even being within the proximity of the blast would kill him via increasing the heat around him, even if just by a few degrees.

>Grateful Dead's effect will take longer because Nen users live a lot longer than normal humans.

Not how Grateful Dead works, it ages yes, but not through the lifespan, for example it aged a baby without making the infant pass into adolescene or anything, it just degraded the infant's cells to death as they were in that moment, longevity doesnt help against the Grateful Dead because it's not aging forward or back, it's making the cells commit hardcore senescence basically. Kinda like Ball Breaker.

Chrollo not knowing about the weakness of Grateful Dead is literally the only reason why he'd lose, because his most common leads and things he'd do would just accelerate it and it'd quickly snowball to the point he wouldnt be able to stop it. In a 1v1 fight he'd kick Prosciutto's face in though, as well as without prep. Chrollo's lack of knowing the weakness and inability to figure out the precise weakness in time before he does something that backfires, Prosciutto having prep, on top of the grateful dead having a hefty range is what leads to Prosciutto winning more often that not, but only under these conditions.
 
He could just send puppets with a mark instead of delivering it himself, but yeah Sun and Moon is extremely risky.

"Not how Grateful Dead works, it ages yes, but not through the lifespan, for example it aged a baby without making the infant pass into adolescene or anything, it just degraded the infant's cells to death as they were in that moment, longevity doesnt help against the Grateful Dead because it's not aging forward or back, it's making the cells commit hardcore senescence basically. Kinda like Ball Breaker."

Huh, wasn't the fact that aging slower the reason given for why Coco Jumbo wasn't bothered by it? That's weird.
 
He could, but he isnt gonna, you said yourself, he'd likely just spam Sun & Moon to try and kill Prosciutto, issue is doing that is gonna indirectly kill him. He definitely has the options to win safely, but it's such an incredibly small chance he'd play his cards right without actually knowing the exact details of Sun & Moon, he'd probably do both puppets and Sun & Moon, but issue with that is, even using Sun & Moon one time is gonna bacfire to the point he's screwed. And Prosciutto has the range to be safely out of Chrollo's range, to where Chrollo is almost guranteed to kill himself before he catches Prosciutto in collateral. Because as said, The Grateful Dead has the range to effect a 12 car superliner, which is over 300+ meters long.

No reason was given for Coco Jumbo aging slower if I recall, but given he's cold blooded and turtles have a lower internal body tempature than women (Plus he was hidden in the shade), well he was probably somewhat fine for a multitude of reasons. Not that it would change how it's shown to work, that being accelerated aging of the body in it's current state, basically making cells commit suicide.
 
Should mention that unless already having a below average internal tempature, it only takes a few seconds to completely **** you, Mista, Trish and Bruno got super lucky as they were drinking cold drinks while it was activated (Trish would have been fine anyway, but not nearly as much), Narancia and co werent, and within the span of like one quick conversation, Narancia was basically crippled, all from just standing there and trying to eat a banana. Hell, within like a minute tops, Narancia's bones were breaking and his skin falling off.

Chrollo being a fit male would be under the same conditions, even assuming longevity would help, it wont matter in the long run because one use of Sun & Moon will end him indirectly due to it creating heat and a lot of it and moving around using his abilities trying to find Prosciutto would also cripple him, probably within a few seconds, even if he is a bit resistant, that is, if he starts off normal, aka without havig down a cold drink or something prior, he's stll gonna age long before he can off his opponent.

Thinking on it, I dont even think Prosciutto needs prep, if he just activates his Stand at maximum range, his opponents are likely to die before they reach him if they cant kill him at range and without knowing any physical activity is gonna backfire a lot,unless they are a chick or have a below average internal temp for some reason or have cold powers (Or arelike, a robot or something).
 
Then this match is a stomp. Outranged and having 0 knowledge? I don't see how Chrollo has any wincons. Indoor Fish - useless outside closed rooms, Fun Fun Cloth is useless, Sun and Moon likely kills him, Convert Hands is useless, Order Stamp is also useless and so is Gallery Fake. We don't know how much his En is but it's likely not in the hundreds of meters like Zeno or Pitou's.
 
He isnt outranged, kinda. His Nen abilities can reach Prosciutto, but they require actually reaching him. Like he has hundreds of meters with puppets, but the puppets gotta actually find prosciutto first, and Sun and Moon has a big range, but the thing SM is attached to has to make it to him first.

Chrollo haswin conditions, he's just super unlikely to play his cards right without knowing what's going on, especially because he doesnt start with the benefit of having a previously coled down body temp. His win condition is hitting Pro with anything, it's just unlikely to happen before it's to late given the circumstances, especially as a few of his main techniques indirectly lead to his defeat.

But that isnt my call.
 
He won't be making enough puppets in time. He can only control one being, and then has to manually create clones with Gallery Fake, stamp them in the head, and give the order to tear any human's head off. Way too long before Grateful Dead ages him to dust.
 
Yeah, that's true, for some reason I thought he had Illumi's puppet technique, forget it was the other one.

He wouldnt be aged to dust though, but he'd be way to weak and aged before to do anything else, which is just gonna snowball incredibly hard and fast. His puppets would also age too so that's a issue, and given how violent they are, theyd increase in internal temp incredibly fast.
 
How is he gonna deal with nen crush? it is possible to nen crush a stand theoretically, but IDK if his stand even has feelings. Maybe it'd affect Prosciutto's mind since stands are empowered by the users mind / fighting instinct? Killing Prosiciutto himself isnt hard, he's still a human being. Aura on stands have worked before so Nen would most likely phase his stand.

Screenshot 20200429-214220
 
...and would his hax phase Chrollo? Stand hax don't seem to work on people more powerful than the user, Jojo seems to follow this fictional rule aswell (power > hax) but its somewhat hard to tell except for 1 1/2 instances;

IMG 20200429 214840
 
Ignoring the fact that line is super retconned 10000 and I can supply you with like ten examples off the top of my head, even as recent as Part 7. Youre taking it out of context, a Stand is merely better controlled the better fighting spirit or insticts you have. It's why Holly who is super passive cant control a Stand, but a ******* turtle or rat can because animals having high drives to survive and better instincts. Stands are the soul, this has been stated nonstop for decades and even shown.

>empowered by the users mind / fighting instinct?

They arent empowered by them, that's a blatant lie. Yeah having a strong will means you have better control of your Stand, but it's not powered by it. It's like saying holding a gun and shooting it is powered by the mind because you need a mind to actually decide to move your arm and pull the trigger.

Chrollo cant nen crush someone from like 300+ meters away dude. It aint like Prosciutto or his Stand is standing next to him. Chrollo is gonna have to nen crush a metric **** ton of people, all while fighting against a short timer and the faster/quicker/etc he moves and acts the faster the effect will snowball.

>Aura on stands have worked before so Nen would most likely phase his stand.

Do tell when this happened? Because I cant think of a single time an aura in JoJo effected a Stand.
 
Isn't Prosciutto not immune to his own effects and has to have ice himself? Or was it just that he could age himself at will?
 
>...and would his hax phase Chrollo? Stand hax don't seem to work on people more powerful than the user, Jojo seems to follow this fictional rule aswell (power > hax) but its somewhat hard to tell except for 1 1/2 instances;

What the ****, I hope youre joking. Pucci could see in stopped time because his Stand effects gravity and he has Dio's bone infused within him, not because he's stronger, especially given in that instance he's drastically weaker than Jotaro and Star Platinum.

Hax in JoJo effects anyone and anything, regardless of if theyre stronger, if hax doesnt effect them there's a different reason for it like, Pucci, being able to see in stopped time because he controls time/gravity and has Dio's bone fused with him and his Stand or Act 4 being able to move in stopped time because it embodies gravity and can enter other dimensions, case and point Star Platinum, who's the strongest Stand in Parts 3/4 yet is effected by abilities all the same. Or Sticky Fingers being able to hax King Crimson, despite King Crimson being vastly surperior. Or almost every example of hax being used in the series.
 
The real cal howard said:
Isn't Prosciutto not immune to his own effects and has to have ice himself? Or was it just that he could age himself at will?
Click to expand...
He can age and de-age himself at will, he even proceeds to manually change himself back to normal immediatly after grabbing Mista and aging him to near death. Pesci aint immune though, he needed ice to stay safe, meaning The Grateful Dead is like Purple Haze, it effects friend and foe.
 
Jojo is very much in the scene of hax being > power. Especially given the fact that Jotaro at seven years old is stronger than Alessi, yet Set(h) works perfectly on him. Meanwhile, Janken kid's Stand works on Rohan, and he's visibly weaker than the mangaka, shown when Rohan just punches him out. And Kira is weaker than both Jotaro and Josuke, but both were very cautious of Killer Queen's Bomb transmutation. And despite King Crimson being inferior to Silver Charoit physically, Diavolo stomped Polnareff. Also you can't tell me that Joseph freaking Joestar is weaker than Telence T. Darby (aka my uncle).
 
> And despite King Crimson being inferior to Silver Charoit physically,

That one aint true though. King Crimson is one of the physically strongest Stands, Top 5 probably, excluding GER who is outright stated to be the ultimate Stand, even physically (In JoJoveller), In no specofic order, Star Platinum/The World (Is stated to be the #1 in power, speed and precision in Part 4, twice, in two different infogra[hics, one early on and one at the end, putting SP over any other Stand in Part 4), King Crimson (Dont forget he literally casually smashed Chariot's head in with a jab, smashing even the armor. Plus he briefly survived a pummel by the strongest Stand, that being GER), Weather Report (****** can put holes in Whitesnake without even touching him, and Whitesnake can rip off Stone Free's arms. Meaning WR>>>>WS>>SF. Also while noncanon, Weather Report is the only Stand Part 3 Star Platinum fought and considered a hassle), Act 4 and Amped RHCP (Dude put CD on his ass and is confirmed by Araki to be stronger than CD while amped by Morioh, if that wasnt clear already). Probably anyway, Chariot is definitely up there but he's weaker than King Crimson.
 
And that's how we somehow have a vsthread where Diavolo lost to a Pillar Man.
 
What about Diavolo losing to a Pillar Man? I mean, he probably would, or rather, it'd just end up as inconclusive. Neither can actually kill each other. King Crimson, cant ohko or overcome immortality and regen but a Pillar Men aint ever hitting Diavolo and his time skip spamming ass. Especially because Epitaph exists meaning even the whole absorbtion thing aint gonna happen. I guess it depends on which Pillar Men, he'd probably beat Santana low effort but someone like Wham is impossible even if he tried waiting till sunlight. (Although Wham cant kill him either due to precog and time skip).
 
Putting the regen in perspective it's incredibly easy to how it's just too slow to prevent getting killed. Emphasis on incredibly. But I digress here.
 
Chariot190 said:
> And despite King Crimson being inferior to Silver Charoit physically,

That one aint true though. King Crimson is one of the physically strongest Stands, Top 5 probably, excluding GER who is outright stated to be the ultimate Stand, even physically (In JoJoveller), In no specofic order, Star Platinum/The World (Is stated to be the #1 in power, speed and precision in Part 4, twice, in two different infogra[hics, one early on and one at the end, putting SP over any other Stand in Part 4), King Crimson (Dont forget he literally casually smashed Chariot's head in with a jab, smashing even the armor. Plus he briefly survived a pummel by the strongest Stand, that being GER), Weather Report (****** can put holes in Whitesnake without even touching him, and Whitesnake can rip off Stone Free's arms. Meaning WR>>>>WS>>SF. Also while noncanon, Weather Report is the only Stand Part 3 Star Platinum fought and considered a hassle), Act 4 and Amped RHCP (Dude put CD on his ass and is confirmed by Araki to be stronger than CD while amped by Morioh, if that wasnt clear already). Probably anyway, Chariot is definitely up there but he's weaker than King Crimson.
Click to expand...
I had a feeling your next line was a long angry paragraph. Stands aren't empowered by mental strength? Some translations say they are psychological energy, psychological means your mind and soul. Hell, Bandai Namco even translates stands as "psychic". Unless you know Japanese and can translate that and it's something else then I take that back, but ATM 3 sources translate it as being apart of your mind and soul kind of like nen. Why does it matter what Pucci had? Does the narrator or whomever say that it protects him from time stop hax? Controlling gravity Ôëá functioning during stopped time. Context > mere theories, and based on that context Pucci was able to move in stopped time (without MIH). As for Bucciarati vs King Crimson I don't recall him doing anything similar like dismembering him, just using his zippers to break away from King Crimson. Thats not really a hax kind of thing in terms of attacking... Just a good tactic that ended as a feeble attempt cuz of King Crimson's time skip. Aura on stands? Hermit Purple + Hamon? "They say that Hamon is life energy" (Joseph Joestar after finding out Lisa Lisa is 50), aura means energy from a living being, do the math. You're entitled to whatever, I won't stop you from thinking Prosciutto beats Chrollo, I was just voicing my opinion. I do have some respect for ya TBH due to common interests but thats somewhat besides my opinion point.
 
Dude, Pucci controls gravity, he and Johnny used that to resist time manip. This is no DB, things make some strange sense.
 
I wouldnt say it was angry, just dumbfounded because like damn dude. You gotta ignore a lot to come to that conclusion.

Part 3, 5, 6 and 7 all explictly say and even show Stands are the soul, having string willpower allows you to control them bettr but they arent powered by it or anything like that. Chalk it up to early Stand wonkiness. It's pretty established later on what Stands are, how they work and how you control them.

>Hell, Bandai Namco even translates stands as "psychic"

Stands are psychic, but only in a general sense of the term, but so are most supernatural powers. Psychic doesnt always mean Mewtwo or Xavier types of powers. Pyrokinesis is a psychic power for example. And while I personally dont have the best japanese reading skills, doesnt invalidate things like the Part 7 Extra stating Stands are spirit energy, Black Sabbath pulling out GE, Chariot Requiem being able to control stands because it controls souls, Whitesnake's discs outright being stated to be the soul melted down, or the Stands are the manifestation of the soul! line.

>Controlling gravity Ôëá functioning during stopped time.

Except in JoJo.

> As for Bucciarati vs King Crimson I don't recall him doing anything similar like dismembering him,

Used a zipper on King Crimson's cheeks to spill blood.

>Aura on stands? Hermit Purple + Hamon?

Hamon can give an aura but it aint no Lucario shit, although it is life energy yeah, I'll give you that one.

>aura means energy from a living being, do the math.

Not really, aura in JoJo is usually just some DBZ flash colors coming off a character. Not every verse ttreats things the same way. But Hamon is life energy and could probably be equiated to aura depending on the context.

>You're entitled to whatever, I won't stop you from thinking Prosciutto beats Chrollo

Nah dude I think Chrollo ******* murks Prosciutto under normal circumstances, it's only when Chrollo doesnt know about the weakness and they start at maximum distance do I think he wins, and even then Chrollo has a sliht chance to win anyway.
 
I'm voting Prosciutto. Assuming it's SBA distance and Chrollo doesnt have prior info.
 
I'm voting Prosciutto too. More likely that Chrollo gets aged beyond fighting capacity rather than him finding Prosciutto. Also its daytime Central Park so there is going to be a decent amount of heat from the sun.
 
I am inclined to believe it's a stomp, but it's not my call. If it's valid, I'm also voting Prosciutto. Chrollo having no knowledge already puts him at a huge disadvantage, and his only methods of stopping it are either going to backfire immensely, or it's not fast enough before the aging incaps him. Unless Chrollo gets lucky and accidentally Nen crushes him with his Nen, but that's too far-fetched to be an actual win-con.
 
> Nen crushes him with his Nen, but that's too far-fetched to be an actual win-con.

tbf if Prosciutto has prep, or even under SBA, he should be around 300+ meters away (His effect can effect a 12 car superliner, even while he's in the front), and I'm like 99% sure that Chrollo's Nen Crush is nowhere near that. Like I think Meruem and maybe the guards have that range on it but Chrollo I dont think.
 
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