(Professional Wrestling) Turns out WWE LS Scaling isn’t really pulling it’s weight (Haha see what I did there?) Anyways let’s fix that

[Pikaman]

Del Rio is the same guy who, while extremely exhausted and worn out, was able to tip the announcers table on the Big Show. The table was stated by commentary to weigh hundreds of pounds.

First link for the feat, second link for the statement of its weight

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Where's the "hundreds of pounds" feat?

John Cena destroyed Alberto Del Rio in an arm wrestling contest. Del Rio is the same guy who, while extremely exhausted and worn out, was able to tip the announcers table on the Big Show. The table was stated by commentary to weigh hundreds of pounds.

 

[Armorchompy]

Mm, here's an issue, though, tipping something isn't as hard as lifting it. For example, a while ago I calculated FMA Sloth doing basically the same to a 65 ton tank to be roughly 25 tons of LS. Obviously that changes based on a bunch of factors, but it's still generally easier than lifting it.

 

[Pikaman]

Mm, here's an issue, though, tipping something isn't as hard as lifting it. For example, a while ago I calculated FMA Sloth doing basically the same to a 65 ton tank to be roughly 25 tons of LS. Obviously that changes based on a bunch of factors, but it's still generally easier than lifting it.

I had a feeling tipping it wouldn’t produce the same results but I wasn’t sure enough to say anything, thanks!

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I will add that Del Rio was greatly exhausted when doing said feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's true but even then i wouldn't really say it can be claimed to be a superhuman feat

 

[RandomGuy2345]

That's true but even then i wouldn't really say it can be claimed to be a superhuman feat

I was arguing it was Athletic Human - Peak Human, but yeah.

I have more LS feats in the bag anyway that you should probably take a look at.

 

[Pikaman]

Anyways, are we at a state where we can make a verdict here?

 

[Armorchompy]

I was arguing it was Athletic Human - Peak Human, but yeah.

I have more LS feats in the bag anyway that you should probably take a look at.

which ones?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Ricochet (somewhat casually) lifts one of the War Raiders. Nothing crazy. Just another Athletic Human feat the Low-Tiers can scale to.

Seth Rollins flips over the announcers table in a fit of rage.

Roman Reigns flips over the announcers table to bury the Big Show.

Chris Jericho tips over 16 barrels. Admittedly, Pika had his own opinion on this. He said that they were 35-gallon oil drums iirc. I just want to see if Pika was wrong or not, and if he was, would the feat yield anything impressive.

All of these are probably only going to get Peak Human at best, but the feats Roman Reigns and Chris Jericho were done when they were exhausted. Roman Reigns should also be moved down to Mid Tier. I highly doubt he can contend with the strongmen of WWE.

 

[Pikaman]

Roman Reigns should also be moved down to Mid Tier.

I don’t think anyone insinuated he would be Top-Tier in the first place, but agreed

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I don’t think anyone insinuated he would be Top-Tier in the first place, but agreed

I think we had him at Class 5 to 25 prior to this lol.

 

[Pikaman]

I think we had him at Class 5 to 25 prior to this lol.

We have Finn at Class 5-25 atm too lmao

 

[Armorchompy]

Mm, admittedly I have a bit of an issue evaluating this since it relies on verse context. As I understand, the major point of contention is whether certain instances of scaling between mid and top tiers are valid or not, with the argument against them being that it's PIS, that certain characters should not qualify as mid/top and that it's inconsistent, right?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Mm, admittedly I have a bit of an issue evaluating this since it relies on verse context. As I understand, the major point of contention is whether certain instances of scaling between mid and top tiers are valid or not, with the argument against them being that it's PIS, that certain characters should not qualify as mid/top and that it's inconsistent, right?

Pika claims it's PIS because the plot is supposed to make people like Sheamus and Cena look good against the strongmen when they're realistically nowhere near as strong as them. Plus, there was a time where a Mid-Tier tried lifting a car but failed.

Imo, the feats I've shown proves that while they're not on their level, they can still hold their own in a contest of strength. Plus, there was only on one occasion where a Mid-Tier failed to do a Class 5 feat, while there's overwhelming evidence proving that Mid-Tiers can hold their own against Class 25'ers, but ultimately fail in the end.

 

[Pikaman]

Another gripe I have is “Holding their own” even if accepted, does not guarantee Class 5 or even Class 1. There’s no multipliers or anything, so that’s why I prefer “possibly higher” because there’s just not enough consistency and/or reliability to put a number on the possibly Superhuman showings of the Mid-Tiers

 

[Armorchompy]

Are all of these "mid tiers" on the same level? It feels like being capable of splitting up the LS scaling would help solve a lot of things but I assume it's not possible.

Pika, are there actual anti-feats scaling-wise that support your claim of it being PIS? Because something being done for the sake of storytelling in itself does not make it PIS.

If they did downscale, you could list them as "at most Class whatever"

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Another gripe I have is “Holding their own” even if accepted, does not guarantee Class 5 or even Class 1. There’s no multipliers or anything, so that’s why I prefer “possibly higher” because there’s just not enough consistency and/or reliability to put a number on the possibly Superhuman showings of the Mid-Tiers

"Holding your own" against a Class 25'er should make you above Peak Human LS.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Are all of these "mid tiers" on the same level? It feels like being capable of splitting up the LS scaling would help solve a lot of things but I assume it's not possible.

Ricochet is a Low-Tier.

Seth Rollins...is probably a Low-Tier, possibly Mid-Tier.

Roman Reigns is without a doubt, a Mid-Tier.

Chris Jericho is kinda the same as Seth Rollins.

I think we should fix our LS scaling chain, because while wrestlers like Rollins and Del Rio are stronger than Finn Balor and Rey Mysterio, they aren't as strong as people like Theory, Cena, Roman, Sheamus, and Cesaro.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Low-Tiers: Cruiserweights (Ricochet, Rey Mysterio, Finn Balor, etc.)

Mid-Tiers: Light Heavyweights (Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins, Alberto Del Rio, etc.)

High-Tiers: Heavyweights; "Powerhouses" (Austin Theory, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Sheamus, Cesaro, etc.)

Top Tiers: Super Heavyweights; "Strongmen" (Mark Henry, Big Show, Brock Lesnar, Braun Strowman, etc.)

What about this?

 

[Pikaman]

Are all of these "mid tiers" on the same level? It feels like being capable of splitting up the LS scaling would help solve a lot of things but I assume it's not possible.

Well, it would be tricky yes. Generally WWE doesn’t make massive distinctions in LS apart from “Lightweights” (Low-Tier) “Strongmen” (Top-Tier) and everyone else (Mid-Tier). Especially due to the “everyone fights everyone” nature of WWE and how that means scaling has to be done extremely delicately, trying to split the Mid-Tier would be difficult to start on and nigh-impossible to find a consensus on. It’s not worth the time nor energy to try and achieve this, and I don’t see the actual benefits it applies for making scaling easier.

Pika, are there actual anti-feats scaling-wise that support your claim of it being PIS? Because something being done for the sake of storytelling in itself does not make it PIS.

Mark Henry easily dispatches 2 other opponents in a tug-of-war before Sheamus “holds his own” who should not be far behind Sheamus in strength, if behind him at all

Oh also here’s a Mid-Tier failing to do the Class 5 feat of lifting a car

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Well, it would be tricky yes. Generally WWE doesn’t make massive distinctions in LS apart from “Lightweights” (Low-Tier) “Strongmen” (Top-Tier) and everyone else (Mid-Tier). Especially due to the “everyone fights everyone” nature of WWE and how that means scaling has to be done extremely delicately, trying to split the Mid-Tier would be difficult to start on and nigh-impossible to find a consensus on. It’s not worth the time nor energy to try and achieve this, and I don’t see the actual benefits it applies for making scaling easier.

Low-Tiers: Cruiserweights (Ricochet, Rey Mysterio, Finn Balor, etc.)

Mid-Tiers: Light Heavyweights (Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins, Alberto Del Rio, etc.)

High-Tiers: Heavyweights; "Powerhouses" (Austin Theory, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Sheamus, Cesaro, etc.)

God Tiers: Super Heavyweights; "Strongmen" (Mark Henry, Big Show, Brock Lesnar, Braun Strowman, etc.)

What about this?

What is your opinion on this, Pika?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Switched out "God" for "Top".

 

[Pikaman]

Low-Tiers: Cruiserweights (Ricochet, Rey Mysterio, Finn Balor, etc.)

Mid-Tiers: Light Heavyweights (Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins, Alberto Del Rio, etc.)

High-Tiers: Heavyweights; "Powerhouses" (Austin Theory, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Sheamus, Cesaro, etc.)

God Tiers: Super Heavyweights; "Strongmen" (Mark Henry, Big Show, Brock Lesnar, Braun Strowman, etc.)

What about this?

I for the reasons above don’t think a split of the mid-tier would be productive, useful, or possible, we don’t need to go on for ages about our disagreements with which of 2 tiers that hold minimal difference any given character belongs in, especially when an actual in-canon representation of this distinction doesn’t really exist, whereas the 3-Tiers system uses the very clearly present in-verse hierarchy of strength.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I mean, there's a clear distinct strength difference between Mid-Tiers and High-Tiers.

Cena (High-Tier) literally embarrassed Del Rio (Mid-Tier) in an arm wrestling contest. Del Rio is not known for his LS. He's known as a submission specialist/technician, meanwhile Cena is quite notorious for his LS.

 

[Pikaman]

I mean, there's a clear distinct strength difference between Mid-Tiers and High-Tiers.

There really, really isn’t. I could not tell you know proper distinctions, I don’t think you could tell me how you qualify for one tier over the other, and I’d love to hear your ideas on what tiers those 2 would get. (Spoiler Alert: Class 5 still doesn’t work FRA)

“They just feel stronger” isn’t really good enough for justifications, which is literally how slim the margins between those 2 tiers would be

Cena (High-Tier) literally embarrassed Del Rio (Mid-Tier) in an arm wrestling contest. Del Rio is not known for his LS. He's known as a submission specialist/technician

If Del Rio isn’t known for his LS, and got embarrassed by a Mid-Tier, maybe he’s just Low-Tier?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

There really, really isn’t. I could not tell you know proper distinctions, I don’t think you could tell me how you qualify for one tier over the other, and I’d love to hear your ideas on what tiers those 2 would get. (Spoiler Alert: Class 5 still doesn’t work FRA)

Let's use Rey Mysterio as a starting point.

Del Rio is clearly stronger than Mysterio.

Cena is clearly stronger than Del Rio.

Big Show is clearly stronger than Cena.

It's that easy my boi. Admittedly, I have no idea what LS tier would each tier get, but it doesn't really matter, because either way, we're going to disagree with each other no matter who makes the LS scaling chain, so I think it's best if we let someone else do it. We're obviously just going to be bias and disagree.

“They just feel stronger” isn’t really good enough for justifications, which is literally how slim the margins between those 2 tiers would be

No one's saying that. I never said "High-Tiers and Mid-Tiers need their own tier because High-Tiers just feel stronger." This was a pointless comment to make. No one has ever said "They just feel stronger" as a justification, and no one will likely ever will.

If Del Rio isn’t known for his LS, and got embarrassed by a Mid-Tier, maybe he’s just Low-Tier?

I literally made a new scaling chain my boi. Obviously, you disagree with it, but I think it looks way better than just lumping wrestlers who are very clearly stronger than other wrestlers in the same tier.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Low-Tiers: Cruiserweights (Ricochet, Rey Mysterio, Finn Balor, etc.)

Mid-Tiers: Light Heavyweights (Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins, Alberto Del Rio, etc.)

High-Tiers: Heavyweights; "Powerhouses" (Austin Theory, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Sheamus, Cesaro, etc.)

Top Tiers: Super Heavyweights; "Strongmen" (Mark Henry, Big Show, Brock Lesnar, Braun Strowman, etc.)

What about this?

Separating the wrestlers' LS by their weight class, as well as the feats they've shown honestly works the best.

 

[Pikaman]

I have no idea what LS tier would each tier get, but it doesn't really matter

It absolutely does matter…? If you want to propose a new scaling system at least know what figures you want to attach to it

No one has ever said "They just feel stronger" as a justification, and no one will likely ever will.

Del Rio is clearly stronger than Mysterio.

By what evidence, feats etc? Since nobody would ever claim to be doing this scaling off of vibes alone right?

High-Tiers: Heavyweights; "Powerhouses" (Austin Theory

Bro thought we wouldn’t notice

 

[RandomGuy2345]

It absolutely does matter…? If you want to propose a new scaling system at least know what figures you want to attach to it

Bro, you literally took the comment I made out of context. I said it wouldn't really matter who makes the scaling chain between you and me because we'll just end up being biased and disagree at the end, which would lead to a back and forth argument once again, which will lead to nowhere.

By what evidence, feats etc? Since nobody would ever claim to be doing this scaling off of vibes alone right?

Has Rey Mysterio ever shown to flip over an Announcers table? The fact that base Finn Balor can't even lift Bobby Lashely already proves that Del Rio is stronger than Rey. Rey should be around the strength of Finn, if not slightly weaker. Already more than enough proof.

Bro thought we wouldn’t notice

Everyone is going to notice lol. I didn't hide anything at all.

 

[Arceus0x]

 

[Pikaman]

Bro, you literally took the comment I made out of context. I said it wouldn't really matter who makes the scaling chain between you and me because we'll just end up being biased and disagree at the end, which would lead to a back and forth argument once again, which will lead to nowhere.

Your point was it doesn’t matter what numbers are assigned because we’ll just disagree with them anyways, was it not?

Has Rey Mysterio ever shown to flip over an Announcers table? The fact that base Finn Balor can't even lift Bobby Lashely already proves that Del Rio is stronger than Rey. Rey should be around the strength of Finn, if not slightly weaker. Already more than enough proof.

Given

A: The announcer’s table has an undefined weight that could be as low as 200 lbs

B: Tipping is less impressive than lifting

I’d comfortably say that powerbombing Lashley was more impressive than flipping the Announcer’s Table

Everyone is going to notice lol. I didn't hide anything at all.

My point is even under your new system Theory is still Mid-Tier, he’s a light-heavyweight

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Your point was it doesn’t matter what numbers are assigned because we’ll just disagree with them anyways, was it not?

That's literally what I said. Only way this could work is if we make our personal scaling chain and let staff decide which one works best.

Given

A: The announcer’s table has an undefined weight that could be as low as 200 lbs

There's literally no proof of it being 200 lbs. Assuming that the table was the lowest amount of weight possible is massive downplay.

B: Tipping is less impressive than lifting

Fair.

I’d comfortably say that powerbombing Lashley was more impressive than flipping the Announcer’s Table

There's other LS feats I listed that staff still need to look at.

My point is even under your new system Theory is still Mid-Tier, he’s a light-heavyweight

Separating the wrestlers' LS by their weight class, as well as the feats they've shown honestly works the best.

Name a Mid-Tier that can contend with Theory in terms of LS. I'll wait. Theory is notorious for his LS, unlike wrestlers like Del Rio and Chris Jericho, which you claim he's on the same level as.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

WCW Cruiserweight Championship

World Championship Wrestling/WWE

<225 lbs.

WWF Light Heavyweight Championship

WWE/UWA

<215 lbs.

NXT Cruiserweight Championship

WWE

<205 lbs.

The LS requirements in order to hold a title is...inconsistent to say the least.

If Theory joined the WWE sometime when WCW existed (mid-late 90s), he'd be considered a Cruiserweight.

However, in order to hold the Lightweight Heavyweight title, you need to be <than Theory's weight.

 

[Pikaman]

There's literally no proof of it being 200 lbs. Assuming that the table was the lowest amount of weight possible is massive downplay.

There’s no proof of it being any specific weight at all. All we know is it’s from 200-999lbs, and it’s better to be lower than accurate than higher than accurate. I’m acknowledging the feat could actually be rather low, even if it has equal potential to be high

That's literally what I said. Only way this could work is if we make our personal scaling chain and let staff decide which one works best.

That’s literally been the whole premise of this thread

Name a Mid-Tier that can contend with Theory in terms of LS. I'll wait. Theory is notorious for his LS, unlike wrestlers like Del Rio and Chris Jericho, which you claim he's on the same level as.

You wanted to go by weight classes, Theory’s a light-heavyweight as per WWE 2K22 (TV WWE doesn’t actually do weight classes other than cruiserweight.) Also Theory is not nearly as well-known for his strength when compared to Cena or Sheamus, I know Theory’s your favourite but this is wank

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Ricochet (somewhat casually) lifts one of the War Raiders. Nothing crazy. Just another Athletic Human feat the Low-Tiers can scale to.

Seth Rollins flips over the announcers table in a fit of rage.

Roman Reigns flips over the announcers table to bury the Big Show.

Chris Jericho tips over 16 barrels. Admittedly, Pika had his own opinion on this. He said that they were 35-gallon oil drums iirc. I just want to see if Pika was wrong or not, and if he was, would the feat yield anything impressive.

I need a staff member to look at Roman's and Jericho's feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

All those other LS feats are athletic-ish with the exception of the barrels one, which (assuming they're meant to be full otherwise it's pretty easy) is kinda hard to evaluate since that's a lot of weight but tipping over something that tall would be relatively easy. The fact that he kinda struggles with it kinda points to him not being Class 25 tbh

 

[RandomGuy2345]

There’s no proof of it being any specific weight at all. All we know is it’s from 200-999lbs, and it’s better to be lower than accurate than higher than accurate. I’m acknowledging the feat could actually be rather low, even if it has equal potential to be high

Assuming the lowest possible weight is downplay imo. Like I said, something like 300-600 lbs works best. Not too high to the point it's wank, but not too low to the point it's downplay.

You wanted to go by weight classes, Theory’s a light-heavyweight as per WWE 2K22 (TV WWE doesn’t actually do weight classes other than cruiserweight.) Also Theory is not nearly as well-known for his strength when compared to Cena or Sheamus, I know Theory’s your favourite but this is wank

Theory literally had a pose down with Bobby Lashley, and while he ultimately lost, the whole point of that segment was to show that while Theory is very strong and in great shape, he's not Bobby Lashley. Cena or Sheamus is not on the level of Lashley either. It's not wanking whatsoever. Theory is without a doubt, superior to people like Del Rio, Jericho, and many more people in that range of LS. Plus, let's not use WWE Video Games as a way to determine which tier the WWE TV show characters are in.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

All those other LS feats are athletic-ish with the exception of the barrels one, which (assuming they're meant to be full otherwise it's pretty easy) is kinda hard to evaluate since that's a lot of weight but tipping over something that tall would be relatively easy. The fact that he kinda struggles with it kinda points to him not being Class 25 tbh

I'm not trying to get a Class 25 feat. I just want a good enough LS feat people like Theory, Cena, Sheamus, and Cesaro can scale to.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You wanted to go by weight classes, Theory’s a light-heavyweight as per WWE 2K22 (TV WWE doesn’t actually do weight classes other than cruiserweight.) Also Theory is not nearly as well-known for his strength when compared to Cena or Sheamus, I know Theory’s your favourite but this is wank

Plus, I wanted to go by weight class, as well as the feats the characters have shown. You can't put a Light Heavyweight wrestler in the same LS tier as people in their weight class just because they're in the same weight class, especially when that Light Heavyweight wrestler has shown superior LS feats than anyone in that weight class has shown.