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Problems regarding some COTE calculations

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Dinozxd

Dinozxd

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Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters: This calculation would work if Ayanokouji and Horikita directly fell to the ground from 10 meters distance but that's clearly not the case as Ayanokouji states that they "went tumbling down the slope". Ayanokouji does not tank the full energy of the fall, making this calculation completely invalid.

Housen serves a tennis ball: The "as fast and powerful as a bullet" statement is made by the narrator of this arc, Suzune Horikita. This statement falls under "The Hasty Generalization Fallacy" as there is no way for Horikita to calculate the speed of the ball right there and make a statement like this. These kinds of statements are considered as unvalid statements in vs wiki standards. Moreover, Suzune (who has Athletic Human speed) was able to follow the ball with her eyes as she even said that the ball "rushed straight at Onodera" when the ball should be about 30 times faster than her reaction. This statement is just a Hyperbole which makes this calculation invalid.

Edit: The narrator in this feat is actually not Horikita but the "Bullet speed" statement still looks like flowery language which is a thing a lot of people agreed on.

Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I don't have a problem with this calculation as a whole but looking more deeply into an another source related to the punching speed used for this calculation, I found out that the 32 mph speed was clocked with a hook. Manabu clearly doesn't use a hook to attack Horikita here (0.17). I think the calculation should just stick to the average speed generated by professional-level boxers.

Edit 2: We decided to discard this whole calculation as the anime version of this feat (which is the source this calculation used) doesn't adapt the scene correctly so using the manga version of the feat is better to use. The revised calculation of the feat is here.

I think I made myself pretty clear but If anyone has any more questions, make sure to ask it peacefully so we can discuss it. Thanks for reading.

Agree: @HollowVanity , @TheShape03 , @Zefra3011 , @MorrisHatesYou , @DekuGlazer , @Nierre , @GoldenScorpions , @RoggerReggor , @ShionAH

Disagree: @Syncornize

Staff Approvals: @Mr._Bambu , @Deagonx
 
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It hasn't even been 12 let alone 24 hours so please refrain from bumping especially since you've posted this not even a full hour ago
 
None of these calcs have undergone a CRT.
 
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You'll need at least 2 staff agreements without an ongoing discussion to apply changes.
 
GarrixianXD said:
You'll need at least 2 staff agreements without an ongoing discussion to apply changes.
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Thank you for informing me. This is the first CRT I ever created so someone helping me is really relieving.

I can make the changes if two staff members agree to remove the calculations if there is no discussion going on (and I don't think there will ever be one since the problem is pretty straight forward and not up to debate) correct?
 
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One? No one agreed here yet.
 
Dinozxd said:
Housen serves a tennis ball: The "as fast and powerful as a bullet" statement is made by the narrator of this arc, Suzune Horikita. This statement falls under "The Hasty Generalization Fallacy" as there is no way for Horikita to calculate the speed of the ball right there and make a statement like this. These kinds of statements are considered as unvalid statements in vs wiki standards. Moreover, Suzune (who has Athletic Human speed) was able to follow the ball with her eyes as she even said that the ball "rushed straight at Onodera" when the ball should be about 30 times faster than her reaction. This statement is just a Hyperbole which makes this calculation invalid.
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Yeah, that's just an hyperbole as far as I can tell, I was planning to remove it myself but you anticipated me due to my laziness.
Dinozxd said:
Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I don't have a problem with this calculation as a whole but looking more deeply into an another source related to the punching speed used for this calculation, I found out that the 32 mph speed was clocked with a hook. Manabu clearly doesn't use a hook to attack Horikita here (0.17). I think the calculation should just stick to the average speed generated by professional-level boxers.
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I mean... an hook isn't even the fastest technique in boxe there is, for example a jab, which is far more similar than a hook to what Manabu does, is faster so... even considering jabs are used to counter hooks (Also I'm pretty sure in history there are fastest punches than 14 m/s).
 
Zefra3011 said:
I mean... an hook isn't even the fastest technique in boxe there is, for example a jab, which is far more similar than a hook to what Manabu does, is faster so... even considering jabs are used to counter hooks (Also I'm pretty sure in history there are fastest punches than 14 m/s).
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Those punches only generate that much speed when the acceleration peaks. Manabu's punch is really far from completion. I'm also pretty sure you can just count the frames and the distance Manabu travels to find the speed.

Edit: Also, what do you think about the Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters debunk?
 
Dinozxd said:
Those punches only generate that much speed when the acceleration peaks. Manabu's punch is really far from completion. I'm also pretty sure you can just count the frames and the distance Manabu travels to find the speed.
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A hook definitely does that but I'm not sure about punches like jabs since in a hook you have an higher acceleration when you start rotating the body but in a jab you do it right from the start, it may start a bit slower? Mh... maybe but I really doubt it's significately slower (like 14 m/s to 11 m/s) since everything that makes the punch accelerate moves from the beggining.

For the frames part here is a no no, it's just how they animate it (DB would result subsonic when they are MFTL+), you usually go with the frames when there are no other ways to find the speed but here we can find it in a better way.
Dinozxd said:
Edit: Also, what do you think about the Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters debunk?
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If they didn't free fall the feat is invalid, sure.

EDIT: but looking at it again it suggests they were free fall so, it even says " for several seconds it was like flying"
TheShape03 said:
Manabu has Peak Human speed. Taking into account 14 m/s would be the same as saying that his speed is Superhuman (Superhuman speed starts at 12.43 m/s), so I think taking into account 25 mph (11.17 m/s) is more correct.
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I'm pretty sure it's more for running speed, and IRL combat speed > running, also superhuman is > humans so unless you tell me in real life there are humans who surpassed humans' limits this doesn't work, especially considering the fastest punch is like 20 m/s? And there are kicks which can reach 30 m/s at the peak of the acceleration.
 
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Zefra3011 said:
I'm pretty sure it's more for running speed, and IRL combat speed > running, also superhuman is > humans so unless you tell me in real life there are humans who surpassed humans' limits this doesn't work, especially considering the fastest punch is like 20 m/s? And there are kicks which can reach 30 m/s at the peak of the acceleration.
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Ah, no. There is also talk about the attack speed:
Speed: Peak Human (Was capable of keeping up with Ayanokouji in a race, attacked Ayanokouji fast enough for it to be considered a "close call")
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The "superhuman" speed in this wiki's level system is just a name, of course there are humans who can punch at these speeds (like real life boxers) but it doesn't mean Manabu can do it unless he has demonstrated it, or his profile would have to say he can hit at superhuman speeds, if you think he can do it, I guess you'll have to make another CRT for that.

I also don't see why it would be a problem to take 11 m/s to be sure not to inflate the result too much, given that it won't be very different from the current one.

0.1888081395348837 / 11.17 = 0.01690314588 s

3.96181858 / 0.01690314588 = 234.383505185 m/s (Still Subsonic+)
 
TheShape03 said:
Ah, no. There is also talk about the attack speed:

The "superhuman" speed in this wiki's level system is just a name, of course there are humans who can punch at these speeds (like real life boxers) but it doesn't mean Manabu can do it unless he has demonstrated it, or his profile would have to say he can hit at superhuman speeds, if you think he can do it, I guess you'll have to make another CRT for that.
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it's not just a name, like subsonic is any speed below the SOS and transonic is actually SOS, peak human is the peak of human speed but we exceeded the vsbw numbers in combat speed so I don't see why we should ignore IRL feats which would apply for peak human speed.

TheShape03 said:
I also don't see why it would be a problem to take 11 m/s to be sure not to inflate the result too much, given that it won't be very different from the current one.

0.1888081395348837 / 11.17 = 0.01690314588 s

3.96181858 / 0.01690314588 = 234.383505185 m/s (Still Subsonic+)
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Because randomly reducing the result is as bad as highballing a result, it may still be sub+ but 60 m/s in subsonic range is a lot.

(it also makes me wonder who made Manabu's justification, Ayanokouji litterally said "now I'll go faster" during the race and lost due to external reasons and "close call" comes from Manabu is not even Ayanokouji saying "Oh shit I barely dodged that" and we have a clear feat from Ayanokouji saying "I was there before he knew it" but well that's for another day)
 
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Zefra3011 said:
it's not just a name, like subsonic is any speed below the SOS and transonic is actually SOS, peak human is the peak of human speed but we exceeded the vsbw numbers in combat speed so I don't see why we should ignore IRL feats which would apply for peak human speed.
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So for you, any Peak Human should have Superhuman combat speed even though he didn't demonstrate it. Yes... no, absolutely not.

What I don't see is the reasons to suggest that absolutely everyone should be able to hit faster than they run if they haven't demonstrated it and not all existing people can do that.

Zefra3011 said:
Because randomly reducing the result is as bad as highballing a result, it may still be sub+ but 60 m/s in subsonic range is a lot.
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Prove that Manabu can throw punches at the speed of a boxer, and when he does I'll agree to keep him at 14 m/s, if not, 11 m/s is still impressive and in line with his current rating. Furthermore, it would not be anything new, it is quite normal here that low balls are accepted in a calculation so as not to inflate the feats too much.

Zefra3011 said:
(it also makes me wonder who made Manabu's justification, Ayanokouji litterally said "now I'll go faster" during the race and lost due to external reasons and "close call" comes from Manabu is not even Ayanokouji saying "Oh shit I barely dodged that" and we have a clear feat from Ayanokouji saying "I was there before he knew it" but well that's for another day)
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I also find it strange that Manabu is Peak Human by downscaling from a Subsonic+ dude, but the verse doesn't interest me enough to make a CRT about it.

In fact, I find it too strange that the calculation suggested that Ayanokouji is 20 times faster than Manabu, when Ayanokouji himself implied that he almost failed to dodge an attack from Manabu xdd. If it were up to me I would consider this an outlier or something meaningless. This case reminds me of this calculation that assumes that Tanjirou is 12 times faster than the demons he was having a hard time fighting.
 
TheShape03 said:
In fact, I find it too strange that the calculation suggested that Ayanokouji is 20 times faster than Manabu, when Ayanokouji himself implied that he almost failed to dodge an attack from Manabu xdd. If it were up to me I would consider this an outlier or something meaningless. This case reminds me of this calculation that assumes that Tanjirou is 12 times faster than the demons he was having a hard time fighting.
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I actually agree with this. Sure, Ayanokouji was holding back aganist Manabu but the speed difference isn't implied to be that big. It looks like that calculation goes aganist wiki's guidelines about evading punches.
TheShape03 said:
I also find it strange that Manabu is Peak Human by downscaling from a Subsonic+ dude, but the verse doesn't interest me enough to make a CRT about it.
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Scaling chain of the verse is really weird, yes. I will make a CRT about that once we settle this topic.
 
And I forgot to mention this but, Ayanokouji saves Horikita calculation was rejected here. Zefra's calculation doesn't change anything about the calculation other than fixing the pixel scaling and deleting the 34.3 m/s end as far as I can tell.
 
TheShape03 said:
In fact, I find it too strange that the calculation suggested that Ayanokouji is 20 times faster than Manabu, when Ayanokouji himself implied that he almost failed to dodge an attack from Manabu xdd. If it were up to me I would consider this an outlier or something meaningless. This case reminds me of this calculation that assumes that Tanjirou is 12 times faster than the demons he was having a hard time fighting.
Click to expand...
Manabu said "close call" and not Ayanokouji and Ayanokouji wasn't having an hard time fighting him, Manabu justification is just ass, I said this above if you did actually read it you would now.
 
Dinozxd said:
And I forgot to mention this but, Ayanokouji saves Horikita calculation was rejected here. Zefra's calculation doesn't change anything about the calculation other than fixing the pixel scaling and deleting the 34.3 m/s end as far as I can tell.
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The point is that "they arr moving at similar Speed" Is Just how the anime is animated, in the comment of my blog someone sent the novel It clearly talks about an outspeed
 
Zefra3011 said:
Manabu said "close call" and not Ayanokouji and Ayanokouji wasn't having an hard time fighting him, Manabu justification is just ass, I said this above if you did actually read it you would now.
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I read it, but unless you're deaf, you'll hear perfectly well that it's Ayanokouji's voice saying "Close call."
 
Zefra3011 said:
Manabu said "close call"
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It's clearly Ayanokouji who's saying "close call" there. Ayanokouji doesn't look like he's going all out (as it would be heavily implied if that was the case) but the speed difference between Manabu and Koji holding back doesn't even look like it's 5 times, let alone 20 times.
 
Zefra3011 said:
If they didn't free fall the feat is invalid, sure.

EDIT: but looking at it again it suggests they were free fall so, it even says " for several seconds it was like flying"
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"it was like flying". Stumbling down very fast would of course feel like flying.
 
Dinozxd said:
Those punches only generate that much speed when the acceleration peaks. Manabu's punch is really far from completion. I'm also pretty sure you can just count the frames and the distance Manabu travels to find the speed.

Edit: Also, what do you think about the Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters debunk?
Click to expand...
you can't evaluate a feat based on the frames of an animation. Beyond 24 to 30 frames per second we humans on average cannot perceive them. Using this logic any character with extremely high speeds would be much slower.

Dinozxd said:
"it was like flying". Stumbling down very fast would of course feel like flying.
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Something similar could be used when you trip or fall while running, in which case your body would "fly" forward but this is only due to the sudden imbalance added to your own speed (this doesn't seem to be the case). A clearer and more indicative quote would be used for such a context, if you fall while walking, you don't use terms like "fly" in contexts like walking near a slope .The ground suddenly gave way under his feet and for a few seconds it was like flying, referring to the fact that he suddenly had nothing under his feet and was therefore as if "flying" in the void within the slope. In the context, this interpretation seems more consistent
 
Syncornize said:
Something similar could be used when you trip or fall while running, in which case your body would "fly" forward but this is only due to the sudden imbalance added to your own speed. A clearer and more indicative quote would be used for such a context. .The ground suddenly gave way under his feet and for a few seconds it was like flying, referring to the fact that he suddenly had nothing under his feet and was therefore as if "flying" in the void within the slope. In the context, this interpretation seems more consistent
Click to expand...
Ayanokouji literally states that they didn't directly fall 10 meters. There is just no way you can interpret this differently. Stumbling down 10 meters≠free falling 10 meters. It can maybe be interpreted as Koji and Horikita falling down from a smaller distance first and stumbling down from the remaining distance.
 
Syncornize said:
you can't evaluate a feat based on the frames of an animation. Beyond 24 to 30 frames per second we humans on average cannot perceive them. Using this logic any character with extremely high speeds would be much slower.
Click to expand...
yeah. I still think that feat is an outlier though.
 
TheShape03 said:
In fact, I find it too strange that the calculation suggested that Ayanokouji is 20 times faster than Manabu, when Ayanokouji himself implied that he almost failed to dodge an attack from Manabu xdd. If it were up to me I would consider this an outlier or something meaningless. This case reminds me of this calculation that assumes that Tanjirou is 12 times faster than the demons he was having a hard time fighting.
Click to expand...
No longer finding the ground suddenly under one's feet is more than enough context to say " I feel like I'm flying" surely they didnt stumble.
you don't necessarily need the clear statment, no longer finding the ground under your feet by falling near a slope and describing the event with the word "flying" seems self-explanatory to me

"be interpreted as Koji and Horikita falling down from a smaller distance first and stumbling down from the remaining distance"
I didn't quite understand this
 
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TheShape03 said:
In fact, I find it too strange that the calculation suggested that Ayanokouji is 20 times faster than Manabu, when Ayanokouji himself implied that he almost failed to dodge an attack from Manabu xdd. If it were up to me I would consider this an outlier or something meaningless. This case reminds me of this calculation that assumes that Tanjirou is 12 times faster than the demons he was having a hard time fighting.
Click to expand...
Clearly "plot"or something else stupid. Ayano has other subsonic feats such as the one against Ichika. He can't no diff Manabu although he could, also Ryuuen and others could be blitzaed and one shotted without problem but he didn't. Ayano is presented as a character who doesn't want to be too conspicuous and show off his superhuman skills. Against Manabu himself he could have run much faster from the beginning (Ayano's statement) but he didn't.
Ayano represents hypocrisy itself.

To say that he dodged it by a little does not mean that he actually dodged it by a little. He simply didn't expect such speed from an ordinary student; in fact, after that blow Ayano countered him with no problem. I think it is generally something to overlook given Ayano's subsequent exploits and would still turn out to be a nonsensical consideration

What makes these insinuations invalid is that unlike a classic shonen Ayano does not have upgrades as the work unfolds, but is so of his own from the beginning of the series. These are all statistics/physical abilities that he already possesses but refuses to use unless he has to.
on pg like Ayano you can't call them outliers, these are characters who never use their true potential
 
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