Problems regarding some COTE calculations

[Dinozxd]

No longer finding the ground suddenly under one's feet is more than enough context to say " I feel like I'm flying" surely they didnt stumble.

Koji never said he didn't find ground under his feet. The soil underneath his foot suddenly collapsed and he lost his balance. Nothing implies that he free fell here. Feeling like flying≠actually flying lmao. Stumbling down from 10 meters distance would make you pick up good velocity which could make you feel like you're flying. I think you are paying attention to flowery wording so much. If the feat has the word "stumble" in it, that just means they stumble down.

Clearly "plot"or something else stupid. Ayano has other subsonic feats such as the one against Ichika. He can't no diff Manabu although he could, also Ryuuen and others could be blitzaed and one shotted without problem but he didn't. Ayano is presented as a character who doesn't want to be too conspicuous and show off his superhuman skills. Against Manabu himself he could have run much faster from the beginning (Ayano's statement) but he didn't.
Ayano represents hypocrisy itself.

Ayanokouji going 20 times faster than Manabu when he doesn't want to show off his superhuman speed is a clear outlier here actually.

 

[Syncornize]

Ayanokouji going 20 times faster than Manabu when he doesn't want to show off his superhuman speed is a clear outlier here actually.

no, I already explained why. it's literally characterizations of the pg and i've also given examples like subsonic feats. Scans like this affirm what I say.
"without having to reveal that strenght"

What makes these insinuations invalid is that unlike a classic shonen Ayano does not have upgrades as the work unfolds, but is so of his own from the beginning of the series. These are all statistics/physical abilities that he already possesses but refuses to use unless he has to.
on pg like Ayano you can't call them outliers, these are characters who never use their true potential

 

[Syncornize]

Koji never said he didn't find ground under his feet. The soil underneath his foot suddenly collapsed and he lost his balance. Nothing implies that he free fell here. Feeling like flying≠actually flying lmao. Stumbling down from 10 meters distance would make you pick up good velocity which could make you feel like you're flying. I think you are paying attention to flowery wording so much. If the feat has the word "stumble" in it, that just means they stumble down.

you're basically assuming that they stumbled when there's nothing to suggest it or there's a statement that they did. You're just basing it on a strange probability (maybe it's reported but I don't remember or haven't read that they stumbled). I've already explained why in a situation like that it makes no sense. I mean just that and nothing else.


I didn't take the term flying "literally". I just said that when it comes to falling and this term is used it indicates that one remains suspended without touching the ground, especially in contexts like this. no matter how long ago it happened, it doesn't interest me

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Seems alright, you should probably get the supporters to speak here though.

About the last feat, this is what therefir said

In the anime, his hand doesn't appear to be moving much faster than Manabu's, and we can't see where he was before the movement started.

What I'm trying to say is, if we compared the onscreen speed of their arms, Ayanokouji would only be a bit faster than Manabu.

And M3X agreed to it.

So, the calculation just can't work since Ayanokoji's arm only moves slightly faster than Manabu's, and the calc suggests that Ayanokoji is 20.98 times than Manabu at that moment.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Seems alright, you should probably get the supporters to speak here though.

About the last feat, this is what therefir said

And M3X agreed to it.

So, the calculation just can't work since Ayanokoji's arm only moves slightly faster than Manabu's, and the calc suggests that Ayanokoji is 20.98 times than Manabu at that moment.

Here

 

[Dinozxd]

no, I already explained why. it's literally characterizations of the pg and i've also given examples like subsonic feats.

He obviously has to be faster vs characters like Ichika cuz they are faster than Manabu. That doesn't explain why he revealed that he was 20 times faster than Manabu right there.

you're basically assuming that they stumbled when there's nothing to suggest it or there's a statement that they did. You're just basing it on a strange probability (maybe it's reported but I don't remember or haven't read that they stumbled). I've already explained why in a situation like that it makes no sense. I mean just that and nothing else.

What? Koji literally states that they stumble down the slope and I already linked the image before.

 

[Syncornize]

He obviously has to be faster vs characters like Ichika cuz they are faster than Manabu. That doesn't explain why he revealed that he was 20 times faster than Manabu right there.

thx, you literally proved me right.

What? Koji literally states that they stumble down the slope and I already linked the image before.

it is said that he loses his balance and falls, not that he stumbles

 

[DekuGlazer]

Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters: This calculation would work if Ayanokouji and Horikita directly fell to the ground from 10 meters distance but that's clearly not the case as Ayanokouji states that they "went stumbling down the slope". Ayanokouji does not tank the full energy of the fall, making this calculation completely invalid.

Housen serves a tennis ball: The "as fast and powerful as a bullet" statement is made by the narrator of this arc, Suzune Horikita. This statement falls under "The Hasty Generalization Fallacy" as there is no way for Horikita to calculate the speed of the ball right there and make a statement like this. These kinds of statements are considered as unvalid statements in vs wiki standards. Moreover, Suzune (who has Athletic Human speed) was able to follow the ball with her eyes as she even said that the ball "rushed straight at Onodera" when the ball should be about 30 times faster than her reaction. This statement is just a Hyperbole which makes this calculation invalid.

Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I don't have a problem with this calculation as a whole but looking more deeply into an another source related to the punching speed used for this calculation, I found out that the 32 mph speed was clocked with a hook. Manabu clearly doesn't use a hook to attack Horikita here (0.17). I think the calculation should just stick to the average speed generated by professional-level boxers.


I think I made myself pretty clear but If anyone has any more questions, make sure to ask it peacefully so we can discuss it. Thanks for reading.

I agree

 

[TheShape03]

Clearly "plot"or something else stupid. Ayano has other subsonic feats such as the one against Ichika. He can't no diff Manabu although he could, also Ryuuen and others could be blitzaed and one shotted without problem but he didn't. Ayano is presented as a character who doesn't want to be too conspicuous and show off his superhuman skills. Against Manabu himself he could have run much faster from the beginning (Ayano's statement) but he didn't.
Ayano represents hypocrisy itself.

To say that he dodged it by a little does not mean that he actually dodged it by a little. He simply didn't expect such speed from an ordinary student; in fact, after that blow Ayano countered him with no problem. I think it is generally something to overlook given Ayano's subsequent exploits and would still turn out to be a nonsensical consideration

What makes these insinuations invalid is that unlike a classic shonen Ayano does not have upgrades as the work unfolds, but is so of his own from the beginning of the series. These are all statistics/physical abilities that he already possesses but refuses to use unless he has to.
on pg like Ayano you can't call them outliers, these are characters who never use their true potential

Nobody said that Ayanokouji is not Subsonic, in fact, in another comment on this thread I said that they should scale it above Housen's feat (which is Subsonic), I'm just saying that saying that the speed difference between Ayanokouji and Manabu is x20 times is simply ridiculous.

The line "He simply didn't expect such speed from an ordinary student" would make sense and I would take back everything I said, if that had been the first blow. But Ayanokouji had already dodged an attack from Manabu seconds before, and had difficulty dodging the second to the point that he was almost hit, so he was not taken by surprise by the kick and he must have already had some idea of how fast his opponent was, especially taking into account how intelligent Ayano is and that he had already seen an attack from the same guy seconds before. If he really were 20 times faster than him, he would probably see his attacks considerably slower than him, or at least not with enough speed to say that he almost hit him.

It's just something that doesn't make sense. Ayanokouji would have to perceive Manabu as being slower than a turtle if we took this calculation seriously (No, it is not a hyperbole, turtles walk at 0.27 m/s and the average human speed is 5 m/s, meaning that we are 18 times faster than a turtle).

 

[Zefra3011]

So, the calculation just can't work since Ayanokoji's arm only moves slightly faster than Manabu's, and the calc suggests that Ayanokoji is 20.98 times than Manabu at that moment.

I mean.... it's just the anime... This is what the novel says, Ayanokouji litterally says he went in only after manabu started to move, he also add "Before he knew I was there, I grabbed his arm" it's explicit he outspeeded him, I don't get the point "yeah the anime animated them with a similar speed so we'll ignore what the novel say even if it's the primary source", do we consider Goku subsonic because he is shown like that in the anime?

About the "Ayanokouji doesn't show his true potential unless he needs to" I'll make some example:

- The teacher who is aware of Ayanokouji past says "and why? Despite his superiority he refuses to reveal what he is capable of"

- Ayanokouji had to demostrate his grip strenght but before doing it he asked "what's the average?" and proceded to go for it and is evident he could go higher, after he said "I won't go any further"

- Ayanokouji during the scene he made the statment that he could open an opening in the elevator door he literally says "it's just, if possible, I would like to get out without revealing that sort of strenght"

What does this tell to us? Ayanokouji never reveal his strenght unless it's necessary, in the elevator scene he said he would have done it but first he wanted to make sure it was the only way to exit from there because he wanted to avoid to show his strenght, in the calc Ayanokouji waited until the last moment to go in which is when Manabu started moving and when he noticed the situation was dangerous, so yeah, the Ayanokouji who performed that feat is not the same Ayanokouji who said "close call" as he didn't had to show his speed in order to avoid those attacks, and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't consider "close call" as "I won't go any further" during the grip strenght scene which are probably just a sarcastic statments at this point, but even if we want to consider it as a valid statment if anything it would be the outlier as Ayanokouji can easily speedblitz Ichika who comes from the white room and therefore is superior to Manabu, you are telling me Ayanokouji can speedblitz someone who is > Manabu from 5 m but he barely dodges attacks from the same Manabu, so again, if anything, "close call" is the outlier or either just a sarcastic comment since even if you look at Ayano he didn't look very impressed after facing an attack who is supposed to be on pair with the top 1 of the verse/the perfect human.

 

[Zefra3011]

What? Koji literally states that they stumble down the slope and I already linked the image before.

He doesn't say stumble, he say tumble which is = as "falling", and no, you don't "fly" while sliding on a surface, you "fly" when you aren't touching anything, it even says "for several seconds" which is like idk 3 - 5 s so yeah, they were definitely free falling.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I mean.... it's just the anime... This is what the novel says, Ayanokouji litterally says he went in only after manabu started to move, he also add "Before he knew I was there, I grabbed his arm" it's explicit he outspeeded him, I don't get the point "yeah the anime animated them with a similar speed so we'll ignore what the novel say even if it's the primary source", do we consider Goku subsonic because he is shown like that in the anime?

It doesn't really matter, the thing is, Ayanokoji doesn't move much faster than Manabu during that moment. You may give whatever speed you want for Manabu, but that's not gonna change the fact that Ayanokoji is not much faster than him at that moment. If anything it just means that Manabu doesn't move fast as the calc suggests in that moment, which explains why Ayanokoji is not much faster.

For the Goku thing, none of that really matters here, I'm merely talking about on screen speed comparision, engage in that, this is a different thing.

 

[Dinozxd]

He doesn't say stumble, he say tumble which is = as "falling", and no, you don't "fly" while sliding on a surface, you "fly" when you aren't touching anything, it even says "for several seconds" which is like idk 3 - 5 s so yeah, they were definitely free falling.

This source has the word "stumble" for tumble's synonym so...

 

[RoggerReggor]

Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters: This calculation would work if Ayanokouji and Horikita directly fell to the ground from 10 meters distance but that's clearly not the case as Ayanokouji states that they "went stumbling down the slope". Ayanokouji does not tank the full energy of the fall, making this calculation completely invalid.

Stumbling means walking in a weird way. Also, it is written "tumbling", I think that means "fall quickly without control". But I don't know, this world in particular is not in my daily vocabulary usage.

Housen serves a tennis ball: The "as fast and powerful as a bullet" statement is made by the narrator of this arc, Suzune Horikita. This statement falls under "The Hasty Generalization Fallacy" as there is no way for Horikita to calculate the speed of the ball right there and make a statement like this. These kinds of statements are considered as unvalid statements in vs wiki standards. Moreover, Suzune (who has Athletic Human speed) was able to follow the ball with her eyes as she even said that the ball "rushed straight at Onodera" when the ball should be about 30 times faster than her reaction. This statement is just a Hyperbole which makes this calculation invalid.

Seems fine. Agreed. This should use 0.17 seconds as Onodera's reaction time and 23.7744 m as the ideal distance between the tennis players. The result would be 23.7744/0.17 = 139.849412 m/s (Subsonic) and 124.310588 m/s (Subsonic) through tennis racket amplification undo or around that. DMUA has agreed to many calcs using 0.029 seconds, so with that, the speed can go up to 23.7744/0.029 = 819.806897 m/s (Supersonic) and real speed should be around 728.717242 m/s (Supersonic), but I think asking him in particular wouldn't do harm.

Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I don't have a problem with this calculation as a whole but looking more deeply into an another source related to the punching speed used for this calculation, I found out that the 32 mph speed was clocked with a hook. Manabu clearly doesn't use a hook to attack Horikita here (0.17). I think the calculation should just stick to the average speed generated by professional-level boxers.

Let's be real here, Manabu is legit a superhuman + this thing is generalized to be used by the reference for common feats page, and many calculations use this speed. If not, this should be a calc group discussion or something to just undo it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

(Also I'm pretty sure in history there are fastest punches than 14 m/s).

(Should have used Keith Lidell's speed, as Manabu should easily be above higher-end peak human...)

 

[RoggerReggor]

Prove that Manabu can throw punches at the speed of a boxer, and when he does I'll agree to keep him at 14 m/s, if not, 11 m/s is still impressive and in line with his current rating. Furthermore, it would not be anything new, it is quite normal here that low balls are accepted in a calculation so as not to inflate the feats too much.

Ahem...

He is not a boxer, but that doesn't mean he is not a martial artist. Also, he should be comparable to Housen at the least who evaded a kick from Ryuuen which is if I remember correctly, at subsonic for now.

Also, stop with this "Why is Ayanokouji 20 times faster than Manabu?" argument. Manabu is a martial artist, he has trained, but Ayanokouji trained for like 90% of his life for like every day. When he met Ichika, he ranked himself at 100 while her at just 5, which makes him 20 times better than Ichika, but then only, Ichika was able to get around 20 only (and that still cannot be confirmed). Ayanokouji ranked a white room student at being 20 times weaker than him, Manabu here is just a small dust in front of Ayanokouji.

 

[Zefra3011]

It doesn't really matter, the thing is, Ayanokoji doesn't move much faster than Manabu during that moment. You may give whatever speed you want for Manabu, but that's not gonna change the fact that Ayanokoji is not much faster than him at that moment. If anything it just means that Manabu doesn't move fast as the calc suggests in that moment, which explains why Ayanokoji is not much faster.

For the Goku thing, none of that really matters here, I'm merely talking about on screen speed comparision, engage in that, this is a different thing.

You missed my point, I'm saying you are making your point based on how they animated a scene in the anime while the novel (primary source) suggests a different thing. My point with Goku is that just because they animate them in a way we wont ignore the manga, if Goku is showed to be on the same Speed with something SoL on the anime are we going to ignore his MFTL+ feats? I dont think so, same with Ayanokouji, we wont ignore a feat like that because the anime animated them that way, when in the novel Is explicit he outpseeded him.

 

[RoggerReggor]

It doesn't really matter, the thing is, Ayanokoji doesn't move much faster than Manabu during that moment. You may give whatever speed you want for Manabu, but that's not gonna change the fact that Ayanokoji is not much faster than him at that moment. If anything it just means that Manabu doesn't move fast as the calc suggests in that moment, which explains why Ayanokoji is not much faster.

Anime

Manga (this gives a supersonic result btw):

Light Novel:

You are really trying to ignore the fact that the scene is similar in all the three sources which the verse follows, and Ayanokouji came behind Manabu in like the same time when Manabu was going to attack Suzune. We are not trying to scale the fact that Manabu and Ayanokouji are portrayed as relatives here, that can easily be contradicted by the fact that Manabu is massively undertrained and worse than Ayanokouji and that Ayanokouji also said that Ichika who should be massively superior to Manabu is massively inferior to him ("massively" works fine here if you have read the novel).

 

[Zefra3011]

Anime

Manga (this gives a supersonic result btw):

Light Novel:

You are really trying to ignore the fact that the scene is similar in all the three sources which the verse follows, and Ayanokouji came behind Manabu in like the same time when Manabu was going to attack Suzune. We are not trying to scale the fact that Manabu and Ayanokouji are portrayed as relatives here, that can easily be contradicted by the fact that Manabu is massively undertrained and worse than Ayanokouji and that Ayanokouji also said that Ichika who should be massively superior to Manabu is massively inferior to him ("massively" works fine here if you have read the novel).

At this point isn't better to use the manga as it's made by the author? (I looked for the manga but I couldn't find it, that's why I used the anime)

 

[RoggerReggor]

At this point isn't better to use the manga as it's made by the author? (I looked for the manga but I couldn't find it, that's why I used the anime)

It depends.

But would say that for year 1, anime is better to use. I don't think new manga chapters for year 1 have been out since months and they are working on year 2 manga already (13 chapters are already out and they release it every month). Year 1 is a bad adaptation actually; they show Ayanokouji having emotions.

Kinugasa, the author primarily intended Ayanokouji to have emotions in the manga. Also, there are manga panels where Suzune is as tall as Ayanokouji. For year 2 though, the drawing style and time given is better, and Ayanokouji's real personality is also shown. But that doesn't mean scenes cannot be calculated from manga. There are many things which are only in novel and manga, but not in anime (vice-versa stuff also happens).

 

[Dinozxd]

Stumbling means walking in a weird way. Also, it is written "tumbling", I think that means "fall quickly without control". But I don't know, this world in particular is not in my daily vocabulary usage.

This source has the word "stumble" for tumble's synonym so...

Seems fine. Agreed. This should use 0.17 seconds as Onodera's reaction time and 23.7744 m as the ideal distance between the tennis players. The result would be 23.7744/0.17 = 139.849412 m/s (Subsonic) and 124.310588 m/s (Subsonic) through tennis racket amplification undo or around that. DMUA has agreed to many calcs using 0.029 seconds, so with that, the speed can go up to 23.7744/0.029 = 819.806897 m/s (Supersonic) and real speed should be around 728.717242 m/s (Supersonic), but I think asking him in particular wouldn't do harm.

Umm... No? I don't understand the 0.17 seconds suggestion when Average Human reaction is 0.2s. This ball couldn't even outspeed Horikita's vision as Horikita could see the ball going towards Onedara's direction so I don't understand the 0.029s suggestion either.

(Should have used Keith Lidell's speed, as Manabu should easily be above higher-end peak human...)

That speed is rejected by DMUA I think.

Also, he should be comparable to Housen at the least who evaded a kick from Ryuuen which is if I remember correctly, at subsonic for now.

How is Manabu comparable to Housen when Ayanokouji literally stated that Manabu can't beat him? Housen obviously scales above Manabu.

Also, stop with this "Why is Ayanokouji 20 times faster than Manabu?" argument. Manabu is a martial artist, he has trained, but Ayanokouji trained for like 90% of his life for like every day. When he met Ichika, he ranked himself at 100 while her at just 5, which makes him 20 times better than Ichika, but then only, Ichika was able to get around 20 only (and that still cannot be confirmed). Ayanokouji ranked a white room student at being 20 times weaker than him, Manabu here is just a small dust in front of Ayanokouji.

You kinda missed our argument. It isn't implied that Ayanokouji was going all out here. Ayanokouji going 20 times faster than Manabu is just an outlier since he doesn't want to reveal his true speed. Also, the speed difference between Manabu and Koji holding back doesn't even look like It's 5 times, let alone 20 times. This feat is a clear outlier imo.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Umm... No? I don't understand the 0.17 seconds suggestion when Average Human reaction is 0.2s. This ball couldn't even outspeed Horikita's vision as Horikita could see the ball going towards Onedara's direction so I don't understand the 0.029s suggestion either.

0.17 seconds because Onodera is an athletic human with statements. For vision, we use 2 ms, no? I thought 0.029 seconds was for reactions as well, I guess 0.17 seconds does the job then.

How is Manabu comparable to Housen when Ayanokouji literally stated that Manabu can't beat him? Housen obviously scales above Manabu.

Forget that. That's not the debate. We will just stonewall the thread.

You kinda missed our argument. It isn't implied that Ayanokouji was going all out here. Ayanokouji going 20 times faster than Manabu is just an outlier since he doesn't want to reveal his true speed. Also, the speed difference between Manabu and Koji holding back doesn't even look like It's 5 times, let alone 20 times. This feat is a clear outlier imo.

I will ignore everything and just address this:

"he doesn't want to reveal his speed" - I don't know what you are getting at. Ayanokouji wanted to save Suzune and for that, he would of course reveal his speed.

Ayanokouji is not even trying hard to dodge his attacks if you see the

 

[RoggerReggor]

Housen serves a tennis ball: The "as fast and powerful as a bullet" statement is made by the narrator of this arc, Suzune Horikita. This statement falls under "The Hasty Generalization Fallacy" as there is no way for Horikita to calculate the speed of the ball right there and make a statement like this. These kinds of statements are considered as unvalid statements in vs wiki standards. Moreover, Suzune (who has Athletic Human speed) was able to follow the ball with her eyes as she even said that the ball "rushed straight at Onodera" when the ball should be about 30 times faster than her reaction. This statement is just a Hyperbole which makes this calculation invalid.

I don't understand how the narrator of the arc is Suzune.

First of all, the chapter is "Second Sports Festival" and the feat is in Part 6 of the Chapter.

I line in the same part of the chapter has Suzune mentioned in third person lol.

Also, Suzune never addresses Sudou as "Sudou", but as "Sudou-kun". The thing because it is very easy to understand whether the narrator is Suzune or not is through seeing the paragraph statements and if the characters are addressed with honorifics.

Suzune usually:

For Sudou as well,
(Also, this is when Suzune actually calls Sudou as "Sudou-kun" in her narration part.)

The narrator in COTE changes quickly, so I guess this is one of ways through which you can find the narrator.

If this gets cleared up, then the counters wouldn't make sense, right?

 

[Zefra3011]

You kinda missed our argument. It isn't implied that Ayanokouji was going all out here. Ayanokouji going 20 times faster than Manabu is just an outlier since he doesn't want to reveal his true speed. Also, the speed difference between Manabu and Koji holding back doesn't even look like It's 5 times, let alone 20 times. This feat is a clear outlier imo.

Nah you just ignore the part "unless he needs to" I explained It before, and also everything else I said before

 

[Dinozxd]

0.17 seconds because Onodera is an athletic human with statements. For vision, we use 2 ms, no? I thought 0.029 seconds was for reactions as well, I guess 0.17 seconds does the job then.

Not sure about that, I need to see the statements. I remember her being good at swimming but not sure that instantly makes her speed Athletic Human. And no 2 ms is still getting discussed I think. The important part is that whoever the narrator is, They are able to percieve the ball that should be going at Subsonic+ speed.

"he doesn't want to reveal his speed" - I don't know what you are getting at. Ayanokouji wanted to save Suzune and for that, he would of course reveal his speed.

Ayanokouji is not even trying hard to dodge his attacks if you see the

I just don't understand how Manabu doesn't realize and comment on Ayanokouji going faster than him 20 times.

 

[Dinozxd]

I don't understand how the narrator of the arc is Suzune.

First of all, the chapter is "Second Sports Festival" and the feat is in Part 6 of the Chapter.

I line in the same part of the chapter has Suzune mentioned in third person lol.

Also, Suzune never addresses Sudou as "Sudou", but as "Sudou-kun". The thing because it is very easy to understand whether the narrator is Suzune or not is through seeing the paragraph statements and if the characters are addressed with honorifics.

Suzune usually:

For Sudou as well,
(Also, this is when Suzune actually calls Sudou as "Sudou-kun" in her narration part.)

The narrator in COTE changes quickly, so I guess this is one of ways through which you can find the narrator.

If this gets cleared up, then the counters wouldn't make sense, right?

I kinda messed up in that part but It should be a normal student narrating here and they shouldn't be able to react to the ball. No student can compare the tennis of a normal tennis ball with just looking at it. I think this is just flowery writing.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Not sure about that, I need to see the statements. I remember her being good at swimming but not sure that instantly makes her speed Athletic Human. And no 2 ms is still getting discussed I think. The important part is that whoever the narrator is, They are able to percieve the ball that should be going at Subsonic+ speed.

Nope, she has statements of practicing much in tennis.

I just don't understand how Manabu doesn't realize and comment on Ayanokouji going faster than him 20 times.

I mean, does he need to explicitly say something like, "OMG dude, you are so fast." kind of stuff? He said something like Ayanokouji moved well and if he practiced something. I don't think I have seen Manabu overreacting to stuff. That's just his character attitude. Also, character reactions have been one of the worst ways to decide the feat, so it doesn't.

Also, don't comment further on this. Ayanokouji has stealth mastery + we don't know if Manabu can even react to it. The context finely suggests that Manabu didn't realize that Ayanokouji got behind him.

I kinda messed up in that part but It should be a normal student narrating here and they shouldn't be able to react to the ball. No student can compare the tennis of a normal tennis ball with just looking at it. I think this is just flowery writing.

COTE has normal narrations as well, and that doesn't mean a normal student, that is when there is basically no character narrator. It would be best to assume that there are not character narrators here and just simple story narration, because no one would be able to hear what Sudou and Onodera are conversing about when they are like that far.

 

[RoggerReggor]

As for the Ayanokouji and Suzune falling 10 meters stuff, I don't have any kind of vocabulary arguments (even though "for a few seconds, it felt like flying" easily suggests it), but are we just ignoring the fact that even Manabu could fall like 5 meters like nothing happened lol? This is just a logical comment and not any counter but there's just now one more reason of Ayanokouji being able to do that. Ayanokouji has Suzune and the distance is double so the result increases by 4 times, but lol, it's Ayanokouji.

 

[Dinozxd]

Also, don't comment further on this. Ayanokouji has stealth mastery + we don't know if Manabu can even react to it. The context finely suggests that Manabu didn't realize that Ayanokouji got behind him.

So Ayanokouji didn't have to outspeed Manabu, he could have just sneaked up on him and stopped him.

COTE has normal narrations as well, and that doesn't mean a normal student, that is when there is basically no character narrator. It would be best to assume that there are not character narrators here and just simple story narration, because no one would be able to hear what Sudou and Onodera are conversing about when they are like that far.

You still didn't answer how this isn't flowery wrting. A common statement used on light novels is "this character moved at the speed of light". This doesn't actually mean they moved at the speed of light. The writer doesn't actually suggest that the character moves at light speed, It just suggests that the character just moves very fast. I think doing distance between players/Onedara's reaction is better.

I mean, does he need to explicitly say something like, "OMG dude, you are so fast." kind of stuff? He said something like Ayanokouji moved well and if he practiced something. I don't think I have seen Manabu overreacting to stuff. That's just his character attitude. Also, character reactions have been one of the worst ways to decide the feat, so it doesn't.

No? He could have at least be impressed of his speed though. Also, yes, a character's reactions are a good way to decide a feat is an outlier or not.

Nope, she has statements of practicing much in tennis

that's ok I guess. Athletic Human speed is usable in that case.

(even though "for a few seconds, it felt like flying" easily suggests it)

I don't understand how the statement "it felt like flying" suggests a free fall where Ayanokouji himself states that they "tumble down the slope". Google gives the sentence "She pitched forward, tumbling down the remaining stairs" as a common use of the word "tumble".

even Manabu could fall like 5 meters like nothing happened

I don't understand fall calculations very much but Manabu lands on his feet so maybe he doesn't directly tank all the energy? Regardless, our topic isn't Manabu falling 5 meters.

 

[Dinozxd]

Also, these calculations just needs to get removed for now as they didn't undergone a CRT to get added to the verse's page so we are debating for nothing here.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

You missed my point, I'm saying you are making your point based on how they animated a scene in the anime while the novel (primary source) suggests a different thing. My point with Goku is that just because they animate them in a way we wont ignore the manga, if Goku is showed to be on the same Speed with something SoL on the anime are we going to ignore his MFTL+ feats? I dont think so, same with Ayanokouji, we wont ignore a feat like that because the anime animated them that way, when in the novel Is explicit he outpseeded him.

Because we don't know the actual speed difference just by looking at the light novel, the anime provides the speed difference. Here you're assuming speed for Manabu, which can make the speed difference in that moment a lot higher in calc, but by judging their actual difference in speed at that moment, the difference that calc gives makes no sense.

And again, your Goku example doesn't really mean anything here. It's not about ignoring the manga, it's about comparing speed of character with object in question. I'll say it again, the light novel doesn't provide the speed difference.

 

[Zefra3011]

So Ayanokouji didn't have to outspeed Manabu, he could have just sneaked up on him and stopped him.

Yes, if you ignore what is litterally stated in the scan that's the conclusion, sure.

Because we don't know the actual speed difference just by looking at the light novel, the anime provides the speed difference. Here you're assuming speed for Manabu, which can make the speed difference in that moment a lot higher in calc, but by judging their actual difference in speed at that moment, the difference that calc gives makes no sense.

And again, your Goku example doesn't really mean anything here. It's not about ignoring the manga, it's about comparing speed of character with object in question. I'll say it again, the light novel doesn't provide the speed difference.

I litterally just used the anime to calc the distances since they aren't presented in the novel which can be done if the primary source doesn't give enough context, also.... Just because the difference in speed isn't stated we will ignore a calc? You are making no sense here, as far as it's not directly contraddicted by the narrative the difference is fine to use and I suggest you to look at my reply where I explain why Manabu doesn't scale to Ayano, not even slightly, with this said, I'm done, I suggest you to ask staff to see this, I said everything I had to say.

 

[Zefra3011]

Also, these calculations just needs to get removed for now as they didn't undergone a CRT to get added to the verse's page so we are debating for nothing here.

If a calc doesn't change the tier it can be added without a CRT maybe? Not sure tho

 

[Dinozxd]

If a calc doesn't change the tier it can be added without a CRT maybe? Not sure tho

You guys definitely should have created for the Ayanokouji falls 10 meters and Housen's calc as it upgrades the verse. Not sure about Ayanokouji but I guess not because only Ayanokouji scales to it.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I litterally just used the anime to calc the distances since they aren't presented in the novel which can be done if the primary source doesn't give enough context, also.... Just because the difference in speed isn't stated we will ignore a calc? You are making no sense here, as far as it's not directly contraddicted by the narrative the difference is fine to use and I suggest you to look at my reply where I explain why Manu doesn't scale to Ayano, not even slightly, with this said, I'm some, I suggest you to take staff to see this, I said everything I had to say.

Oh my god, you're not understanding any of what I'm saying, I'm not saying it's not fine to use the anime distance and all of that.

All I'm saying is that the anime provides the actual speed difference.

Just compare the speed between Manabu and Ayanokoji's arm, Ayanokoji's arm is only slightly faster than Manabu's, but according to the calc, it's 293.72m/s while Manabu is only 14m/s speed which doesn't make sense.

 

[TheShape03]

So, after some thought, this is my current opinion on eliminating the use of these calculations.

Ayanokouji and Horikita fall 10 meters: I agree with discarding this calculation.

Housen serves a tennis ball: Neutral. If the narrator is not a student and there is an "omniscient narrator" (I think that's what they're called) then the problem of the narrator perceiving the movement of the ball is fixed, but it could still be some kind of flowery language.

Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I'm still inclined to agree with discarding this calculation. I reread that fragment in the novel and I understand that what happens is simply that Ayano holds Manabu before he throws Suzune to the ground (the same thing also happens in the Manga), that is, this "feat" where Ayanokouji catches Manabu's blow occurs only in the anime and therefore, is invalid, since it contradicts what happens in the original material.

Editing Rules:

• As stated in the Canon page: When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon. If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons, any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority.

Another explanation is that Manabu simply wasn't going to hit Suzune with full force (She's his sister after all, why would he hit her with full force just to scare her into leaving school?) and therefore, his punch would also not go as fast as a serious punch. Also, Ayanokouji perceiving Manabu as slower than a turtle just doesn't make sense, Ayano is faster, yes, but not to that extent.

 

[Zefra3011]

You guys definitely should have created for the Ayanokouji falls 10 meters and Housen's calc as it upgrades the verse. Not sure about Ayanokouji but I guess not because only Ayanokouji scales to it.

no idea man, I wasn't even the one who added my calc, I was just saying

Oh my god, you're not understanding any of what I'm saying, I'm not saying it's not fine to use the anime distance and all of that.

All I'm saying is that the anime provides the actual speed difference.

Just compare the speed between Manabu and Ayanokoji's arm, Ayanokoji's arm is only slightly faster than Manabu's, but according to the calc, it's 293.72m/s while Manabu is only 14m/s speed which doesn't make sense.

So Ayanokouji moved at 14 m/s for 3,9 m in order to block a punch also going at 14 m/s for like 10 cm? Any other source (novel and manga) explain the situation as Ayanokouji suddendly appearing which is the correct one as they are primary sources, both made by the author while the anime isn't.

Ayanokouji saves Horikita: I'm still inclined to agree with discarding this calculation. I reread that fragment in the novel and I understand that what happens is simply that Ayano holds Manabu before he throws Suzune to the ground (the same thing also happens in the Manga), that is, this "feat" where Ayanokouji catches Manabu's blow occurs only in the anime and therefore, is invalid, since it contradicts what happens in the original material.

I'm willing to calculate it using the manga, the situation should be similar to the novel and it's also made by the author so it should be better imo but I think it wouldn't change much the result, anyway, I'll do it as soon as I have time.

Another explanation is that Manabu simply wasn't going to hit Suzune with full force (She's his sister after all, why would he hit her with full force just to scare her into leaving school?) and therefore, his punch would also not go as fast as a serious punch.

Actually the reason Ayanokouji stepped in is that that punch/attack was serious, for example there is another scene when 3 students are bullying a girl and Ayanokouji didn't stepped in at all, the point is that Manabu was going to seriously damage Suzune and that's the reason he revealed his strenght

Also, Ayanokouji perceiving Manabu as slower than a turtle just doesn't make sense, Ayano is faster, yes, but not to that extent.

So another feat where Ayanokouji speedbliztes a girl who is far superior to Manabu and Ayanokouji outspeeading him isn't enough? Just because the anime (which isn't made by the author) animated them as similar speed? When the anime still shows Ayanokouji suddendly appearing? WOW

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Another explanation is that Manabu simply wasn't going to hit Suzune with full force (She's his sister after all, why would he hit her with full force just to scare her into leaving school?) and therefore, his punch would also not go as fast as a serious punch. Also, Ayanokouji perceiving Manabu as slower than a turtle just doesn't make sense, Ayano is faster, yes, but not to that extent.

Yeah, I've always shared the same thought.
If a pro martial artist is gonna physically punish his child, he's not gonna go the same as he does with someone he really hates. The same logic applies here. This should be common sense.

 

[Dinozxd]

Actually the reason Ayanokouji stepped in is that that punch/attack was serious, for example there is another scene when 3 students are bullying a girl and Ayanokouji didn't stepped in at all, the point is that Manabu was going to seriously damage Suzune and that's the reason he revealed his strenght

He just says "You really were going to drive that in, huh". This doesn't mean Manabu was serious about hurting Horikita, it just means that Manabu was going to hit her.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

So Ayanokouji moved at 14 m/s for 3,9 m in order to block a punch also going at 14 m/s for like 10 cm? Any other source (novel and anime) explain the situation as Ayanokouji suddendly appearing which is the correct one as they are primary sources, both made by the author while the anime isn't.

You're still not understanding this.

You miss the main problem here.

It's the assumed speed.

You're assuming a speed for Manabu here, the higher the number, the higher the speed gap.

If Manabu's speed is 14m/s, then Ayanokoji's speed will be 293.72m/s. A huge gap.

If Manabu's speed is lower, the gap will be lower.

In short, the assumed speed is wrong.