Problems regarding some COTE calculations

[TheShape03]

It should be better to just treat it as a scenario which happened in the anime only like we do with the Ryuuen feat.

No, because unlike Ryuuen's feat, this feat did happen in the novel and the manga, just in a different way. Canon material takes precedence over adaptations, especially when this adaptation was not even made by the author. This is a rule here, so if someone wants to change it they have to make another CRT. For the moment, the feat from the anime should be unquestionably discarded (and if it can't be calculated with the manga, the feat will simply be discarded).

As stated in the Canon page: When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.

 

[Dinozxd]

It clearly changes a lot of stuff. Secondly, it doesn't matter if she fell down or not. If the attack was at a very bad angle, then the graze wouldn't even deliver those times the damage. At this point, you are just assuming that the graze would always be 17 times higher than her durability.

Onodera took another serve by Housen after and it didn't graze her cheek. I'm pretty sure I linked the source but it seems like you didn't look into it. It directly hit her so that's why I'm taking the whole mass of the ball for the KE.

1. She is supposed to have a higher and "extraordinary talent" for sports in general. It is important to note that she is also mentioned to show her "sprinter side" as

Athletic Human lvl statements

2. She has adaptability statements as well, in fact, of literally winning competitions, and that too, in a school where students are stupidly talented and are among the most athletic students.

adaptability statements don't scale to durability.

3. LOL, she has statements of somehow being comparable to Suzune. This should be enough. Suzune is very well comparable to Ibuki. In fact, I believe that Suzune should have much higher endurance than Ibuki and should be able to give a good fight and it can go either way. No matter what you believe, you cannot argue that Suzune and Ibuki are comparable and are rivals.

I don't remember this but I think this statement is referring to picking a partner you like to work with as it says "Pairing with a partner you like" at the start. He is a good duo with both Horikita and Onodera so that's why it wouldn't make a difference for Sudou.

Too cool, but you missed this. Ibuki never severely damaged her. In fact, all that made her do was just some exclamations. Suzune dealt more damage. I guess both of them dealt more damage because they were able to hit her weak point, which was near her abdomen region. This is like saying you wouldn't be able to take down a lion if it was on the verge of collapse. Like lol, Suzune herself mentioned that Amasawa should be able to overpower them even on the verge of collapse.

I guess you missed the fact that Ichika straight up shaked from Ibuki's hit.

Suzune for sure did more damage but she hit her abdomen where Ibuki punched her face. Ichika would definitely beat them if she was in a good state but that's not our topic here.

No way you are trying to say that. Housen was said to be able to get over both Manabu and Albert. And if you remember, Manabu has a statement of being able to knock down Ayanokouji in like a punch while Albert has statements of tanking Ayanokouji's hits.

Like I said, I don't remember Ayanokouji getting any stat amps throughout the series.

 

[Dinozxd]

Like I said, we should debate this later. The main point of this thread was indeed debunking the calcs but the calculations were even added without a CRT which is a bigger problem. Let's not clog up the thread.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I agree with all 3 propositions in the OP. The context of those three calcs is more than questionable.
Statements like "as fast as a bullet" are most of the time flowery language used in many stories to hype up a scene. Without very precise and specific situational context, phrases like these cannot be taken as face value and should be ignored. And no, referencing some other feat isn't an argument.
As for the "falling down 10 meters", the scene is clearly not referring to a vertical fall, but a diagonal one... the word "slope" is used twice in the text. By the very definition of the word "slope", the fall cannot be vertical. It would have been vertical if it said "cliff" instead.

And Shape is correct by bringing up those rules. They are there for a reason.

 

[Dinozxd]

All of the votes have been counted. I'm just gonna wait for staff agreement if anymore debate doesn't happen (I hope not cuz the thread reached 2 pages lol)

 

[RoggerReggor]

All of the votes have been counted. I'm just gonna wait for staff agreement if anymore debate doesn't happen (I hope not cuz the thread reached 2 pages lol)

Count me for agreement.

 

[blatgotyahat]

He mentioned it right after he blitzed Ichika, it should be kind of obvious.

Your argument is on how he's 20 times faster when that was never stated, he was talking about skills which is clearly said by him. Ofc he's superior but the numbers of him being 20 times faster makes no sense

"He mentioned it right after he blitxed it should be obvious". It would be with no context but the context is right there "Skill"

 

[M3X_2.0]

Are the accepted calculations (by you) evaluated?

 

[Dinozxd]

Are the accepted calculations (by you) evaluated?

If you're talking about this, no not yet. We have agreed on removing the old calculation because the version of the feat the calc was used by adapted the feat incorrectly.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm gonna be completely honest I don't even know what's happening on this thread and why do you need my evaluation

 

[Dinozxd]

I'm gonna be completely honest I don't even know what's happening on this thread and why do you need my evaluation

Yeah, It's my fault how this thread got clogged up with unnecesary debates. I think It would be easier for you to just read the OP and just check those debunks out. Rest of this thread is just a waste of time to be honest.

Edit: I remember that you evaluated some Classroom Of the Elite calculations in the past so that's why I asked for your help.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Your argument is on how he's 20 times faster when that was never stated, he was talking about skills which is clearly said by him. Ofc he's superior but the numbers of him being 20 times faster makes no sense

"He mentioned it right after he blitxed it should be obvious". It would be with no context but the context is right there "Skill"

Nah lol. In COTE, the skill word is literally used for a person's entire fighting abilities. And in real-life as well, you can use that too.

For example, Kushida said this:

If your opinion is entirely correct, then Kushida should be blatantly wrong here because Ayanokouji overpowered Ichika through his speed and not "skills" because he legit blitzed her in that moment. It is no debate that skill can be used as a similar word to "abilities". I don't understand why people try downgrading the verse using mere word play...

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think It would be easier for you to just read the OP and just check those debunks out. Rest of this thread is just a waste of time to be honest.

I think they’re fine honestly. May I see the counter arguments to your debunks?

 

[Dinozxd]

I think they’re fine honestly. May I see the counter arguments to your debunks?

There weren't any valid counter arguments about the first calc as I remember.

Some of my arguments about the second calc had flaws but no one had a counter argument about the Hyperbole part which straight up makes the calc invalid.

The third calc used the anime adaption which wasn't a correct adaption of the feat. @Zefra3011 (brought up the point) and @RoggerReggor (disagreed with it) argued about this for a while but Rogger agreed to the debunks in the end.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I would like to know their opinions as well.

 

[Dinozxd]

I would like to know their opinions as well.

That's fine. I pinged them above but I'll do it one more time.

@Zefra3011 @RoggerReggor Sorry to disturb you guys. Your opinions are needed about the Ayanokouji saves Horikita feat here.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Zefra3011 @RoggerReggor

Regular members can't mention other members last I checked.

 

[Dinozxd]

@Zefra3011 @RoggerReggor

Regular members can't mention other members last I checked.

I thought that only happened when regular members mention staff members lol. Thanks for helping.

 

[Zefra3011]

I would like to know their opinions as well.

Well, I made the first version of the third calc using the anime in order to find the distance, the calc by his own doesn't have problems imo, the point is that apparently in the novel and manga (both made by the author while the anime isn't) describe the scene differently, the anime shows Ayanokouji moving the last moment outspeeding the attack (which is similar to a punch) so I calced the timeframe based on that, the problem is that in the novel and manga Manabu wasn't attacking Suzune with a punch but he was going to throw her on the ground, also Ayanokouji didn't outspeed the movement but he just came in the way before he could start, the novel itself says "he moved foward, as if about to act" so the movement of throwing her didn't really start therefore he just went in the way preventing it from happening. So I just recalculate it using the distance showed in the manga and a reaction time for the timeframe.

Anime calc

Manga calc

I'm willing to correct it in case it's wrong but I won't really discuss the context much as I'm not a supporter of the verse, as far as I'm aware Rogger said there is another way to calc it, he stated it above, also he has far more knowledge than me regarding the verse so I would wait for his answer.

-

For the first calc, "tumbling" means "falling suddenly" and he describes it as flying for several seconds, flying means you don't touch anything with your feet and falling from 10 m happens in about 2 s and he says "for several seconds" so I interpret it as they free fall since they aren't touching anything for some seconds.

An example where the debunk would work is in this feat, where the guys is constantly hitting the wall while falling but in this case "flying" is the last word I would describe it with.

-

I' m neutral in removing the second calc.

 

[Dinozxd]

For the first calc, "tumbling" means "falling suddenly" and he describes it as flying for several seconds, flying means you don't touch anything with your feet and falling from 10 m happens in about 2 s and he says "for several seconds" so I interpret it as they free fall since they aren't touching anything for some seconds.

It would be better if you could have said this before but whatever.

The word "slope" gets mentioned in the feat. Falling from a slope means there is a horizontal fall, not a vertical one.

 

[Zefra3011]

I'm pretty sure I did

Oh dang, well, I forgot that word is used for non vertical stuff

 

[Dinozxd]

I'm pretty sure I did

Oh dang, well, I forgot that word is used for non vertical stuff

Oh. My bad then.

So you agree that It's not a free fall, right?

 

[RoggerReggor]

I would like to know their opinions as well.

About the Ayanokouji and Suzune falling, I can prove that Ayanokouji can easily do that, but I don't have any kind of arguments against vocabulary because that becomes a hella subjective.

The Ayanokouji saving Suzune from Manabu feat honestly is not calculatable and the anime scene differs from the real scene in some ways. It is up to the staff to decide whether it can be kept or not.

The Housen's feat is characterized as a hyperbole. We were basically debating about how it is possible to happen but looks like the efforts and chats would be futile because hyperbolic characterization exists.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Manga calc

I'm willing to correct it in case it's wrong but I won't really discuss the context much as I'm not a supporter of the verse, as far as I'm aware Rogger said there is another way to calc it, he stated it above, also he has far more knowledge than me regarding the verse so I would wait for his answer.

Working on it. Can someone honestly give me a standard speed to throw a person? (like a judo throw, for a high-end peak human would be fine)

 

[RoggerReggor]

Gave calculating Ayanokouji saving Suzune from Manabu a try. Also, I used athletic human speed because the other ends gave a much higher result.

 

[blatgotyahat]

Nah lol. In COTE, the skill word is literally used for a person's entire fighting abilities. And in real-life as well, you can use that too.

For example, Kushida said this:

If your opinion is entirely correct, then Kushida should be blatantly wrong here because Ayanokouji overpowered Ichika through his speed and not "skills" because he legit blitzed her in that moment. It is no debate that skill can be used as a similar word to "abilities". I don't understand why people try downgrading the verse using mere word play...

Im not downgrading anything, my point is about your claim saying he's 20x faster. Not once was it mentioned he was 20 times faster Only that if an opponents skill had increased from 5 to 20-30, his score was still 100.

There is a very huge difference there I dont understand how thats hard to understand Not once was it stated he was 20 times faster

 

[blatgotyahat]

Gave calculating Ayanokouji saving Suzune from Manabu a try. Also, I used athletic human speed because the other ends gave a much higher result.

Zefras scale turned out subsonic/+ why ur calcs always supersonic or higher

 

[RoggerReggor]

Im not downgrading anything, my point is about your claim saying he's 20x faster. Not once was it mentioned he was 20 times faster Only that if an opponents skill had increased from 5 to 20-30, his score was still 100.

There is a very huge difference there I dont understand how thats hard to understand Not once was it stated he was 20 times faster

Breh, why are you just ignoring the fact that Kushida legit said that Ayanokouji deals with Ichika because of his "skills"? Skills can be used for a person's techniques and his abilities both. Here, it is for his "abilities" of course. Abilities in a grammatical sense include speed, AP and what not if you for some time leave the wiki definition of it. This is vocabulary-wise proving that.

I guess I will also have to make it clear that "skills" is not always used for a person's techniques. Kushida implied that Ayanokouji took down Ichika because of his skills, while this shouldn't and will not make sense if we went according to your logic. Ayanokouji absolutely blitzed her because of their high speed difference and you cannot prove otherwise.

The calc we use today uses 0.08 seconds, which is the time a higher-end peak human needs while traveling a meter at their peak speed. At the same time, Ayanokouji traveled 5 meters, which of course makes him 5 times faster. Secondly, this was a mathematical proof of me proving this.

Even if you were to say that Ayanokouji rated Amasawa's skills, you will have to argue that Amasawa actually showed her skills, which is kind of impossible because Amasawa never showed it, she was just showing her breaking someone's arm, which in a serious way, is not a special skill. Also, Amasawa never succeeded in doing that. Ayanokouji will need to see Amasawa's techniques to rate her and he didn't see them, it doesn't take a genius to understand here that Ayanokouji described her speed only.

Satisfied now?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Zefras scale turned out subsonic/+ why ur calcs always supersonic or higher

If you are accusing me of making high-result calcs for the verse, I want to say that I previously got a supersonic+ result because I used the pixel-scaling from Zefra's calc, but I decided to do some pixel-scaling myself and got a new distance of 2.5158102067 m which was around 3.01 m in Zefra's calc. Secondly, I used athletic human speeds while Zefra used high-end peak human. I didn't try to exaggerate the results by any margin.

 

[Dinozxd]

Im not downgrading anything, my point is about your claim saying he's 20x faster. Not once was it mentioned he was 20 times faster Only that if an opponents skill had increased from 5 to 20-30, his score was still 100.

There is a very huge difference there I dont understand how thats hard to understand Not once was it stated he was 20 times faster

Guys, leave this topic for an another thread.

If you are accusing me of making high-result calcs for the verse, I want to say that I previously got a supersonic+ result because I used the pixel-scaling from Zefra's calc, but I decided to do some pixel-scaling myself and got a new distance of 2.5158102067 m which was around 3.01 m in Zefra's calc. Secondly, I used athletic human speeds while Zefra used high-end peak human. I didn't try to exaggerate the results by any margin.

I commented on your calculation but I'll say it again. Ayanokouji moving 70 times faster than Manabu and Manabu not noticing the speed difference is really weird. Considering that Koji when holding back is comparable but superior to Manabu when he is 70 times faster in the calc is just aganist wiki's evading attacks guidelines.

We don't know Ayanokouji moved all that distance in that timeframe either. If you're gonna use the full distance between Koji and Manabu as the distance Koji traveled, you should use the full distance Manabu would move Horikita to slam her to the ground as well.

I honestly can't imagine this feat being above Subsonic range.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I commented on your calculation but I'll say it again. Ayanokouji moving 70 times faster than Manabu and Manabu not noticing the speed difference is really weird. Considering that Koji when holding back is comparable but superior to Manabu when he is 70 times faster in the calc is just aganist wiki's evading attacks guidelines.

Nothing new in that, the current best Yu the Boxer calc has J being 121.040735 times faster than J while Yu should be way superior to him. DMUA still argued about the calc and it persists.

We don't know Ayanokouji moved all that distance in that timeframe either. If you're gonna use the full distance between Koji and Manabu as the distance Koji traveled, you should use the full distance Manabu would move Horikita to slam her to the ground as well.

What are you talking about? I did take it. The novel describes it like Manabu was still pinning his sister And when Manabu has it arm like around Suzune's chest level, she would be thrown already...

I honestly can't imagine this feat being above Subsonic range.

Nobody's trying to leave it to imaginations here.

 

[Dinozxd]

Nothing new in that, the current best Yu the Boxer calc has J being 121.040735 times faster than J while Yu should be way superior to him. DMUA still argued about the calc and it persists.

So? It doesn't change the fact that it's aganist the rules.

What are you talking about? I did take it. The novel describes it like Manabu was still pinning his sister And when Manabu has it arm like around Suzune's chest level, she would be thrown already...

I meant you had to take the full distance between Horikita and the floor if you wanted to take Ayanokouji's full movement into account because we don't know Ayanokouji travaled all that distance when Manabu just moved 3 cm. It's just how these kinds of calcs work.

 

[RoggerReggor]

So? It doesn't change the fact that it's aganist the rules.

If you are referring to the stuff and saying that Manabu cannot go 70 times faster then read my comment again.

I meant you had to take the full distance between Horikita and the floor if you wanted to take Ayanokouji's full movement into account because we don't know Ayanokouji travaled all that distance when Manabu just moved 3 cm. It's just how these kinds of calcs work.

Aware of it.

 

[Dinozxd]

I'll just take my shot on the calc. I'll assume Manabu moves 1 meter to slam Horikita on the ground (maybe even higher since he raises her above his head). Koji moves 2.5158102067m (Rogger's pixel scale) in total where Manabu moves 1 meter in total.

Athletic Human end:
2.5158102067*(7.7/1) = 19.3717385916 m/s (Superhuman)

Peak Human end:
2.5158102067*(10.03/1) = 25.2335763732 m/s (Superhuman)

Superhuman end:
2.5158102067*(12.43/1) = 31,2715208693 m/s (Superhuman)

(I know this is too much assumption based but I might make a more detailed blog post if you guys like the way I'm going with this)

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'll just take my shot on the calc. I'll assume Manabu moves 1 meter to slam Horikita on the ground (maybe even higher since he raises her above his head). Koji moves 2.5158102067m (Rogger's pixel scale) in total where Manabu moves 1 meter in total.

Athletic Human end:
2.5158102067*(7.7/1) = 19.3717385916 m/s (Superhuman)

Peak Human end:
2.5158102067*(10.03/1) = 25.2335763732 m/s (Superhuman)

Superhuman end:
2.5158102067*(12.43/1) = 31,2715208693 m/s (Superhuman)

(I know this is too much assumption based but I might make a more detailed blog post if you guys like the way I'm going with this)

1 meter is like assuming a lot lol. I think something like 10 centimeters would be much, much better. Secondly, in the LN, Manabu had only pinned Suzune (he hadn't even lifted her). The only thing which the anime doesn't mention is Ayanokouji asking Manabu if he was going to throw Suzune down, I don't know why we are ignoring that and just seeing the stuff because it wasn't mentioned.

 

[Dinozxd]

1 meter is like assuming a lot lol. I think something like 10 centimeters would be much, much better.

Nah. I even think i highballed it too much. 1 meter is too short for slaming someone on the ground. 10 cm is just too short.

The only thing which the anime doesn't mention is Ayanokouji asking Manabu if he was going to throw Suzune down, I don't know why we are ignoring that and just seeing the stuff because it wasn't mentioned.

We went over this before. Please don't bring up old arguments like It's something new

 

[RoggerReggor]

Nah. I even think i highballed it too much. 1 meter is too short for slaming someone on the ground. 10 cm is just too short.

Nope, center of gravity for humans is located around 56% of their heights. Considering this, Manabu should be able to easy shift Suzune's polar mass towards downwards and she would fall easily. Ideally, that would be around 1.56*(100-56)% = 0.6864 m.

 

[Dinozxd]

Nope, center of gravity for humans is located around 56% of their heights. Considering this, Manabu should be able to easy shift Suzune's polar mass towards downwards and she would fall easily. Ideally, that would be around 1.56*(100-56)% = 0.6864 m.

this makes sense ngl

That would bump the lowball to 28 m/s (Superhuman) and the highball to 45 m/s. I think the mid end (which gives a 36 m/s result) should be used here though as Manabu's speed rating is Peak Human. You should change the distance on your calculation to this imo.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Gave calculating Ayanokouji saving Suzune from Manabu a try. Also, I used athletic human speed because the other ends gave a much higher result.

I am dubious at the calculation.
Like, how did you get 63.5px for the blue line between Suzune and Ayanokouji? It doesn't match the distance we see, especially when compared to Suzune's height.
Also, calcing a distance like is, imo, questionable, because Ayanokouji and Suzune are located at different depths of the panel. In cases where the two people/objects are in different depths, angular size is often a good solution... which you did use, but in combination with regular pixel calc, which is weird.


In any case, I gave this particular calculation a try, and this is what I get.

 

[Dinozxd]

In any case, I gave this particular calculation a try, and this is what I get.

I think it makes sense to add this distance to the distance Manabu moved as well.

Nope, center of gravity for humans is located around 56% of their heights. Considering this, Manabu should be able to easy shift Suzune's polar mass towards downwards and she would fall easily. Ideally, that would be around 1.56*(100-56)% = 0.6864 m.