Problems regarding kinetic energy for small or regular size animals

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Technically, damage output is based on Joules/cc and the strength and the official unit for measuring the strength of a punch would be PSI (Pounds per square inch) which is a unit of pressure rather than energy. Though, our tiering system was mostly meant for gauging the strength of superhuman characters who punch with nuclear levels of force since that's how strong all the "Popular" Vs debating verses lie. So to be consistent, our AP is based on energy values even though PSI would technically be more scientifically accurate regarding lower borders.

But yeah, the real world is full of 10-C attacks that are extremely painful and deadly while at the same time full of 9-C or 9-B attacks that aren't fatal. Like body slamming doesn't damage people anymore than a punch to the face does, and a lot of people can survive a 9-B free fall if they land in a giant haystack for instance. Because hay is really soft and greatly reduces pressure.

So we either base system of destruction values, or use punches as our our main thing for calculating KE values.

 

[Ugarik]

Technically, damage output is based on Joules/cc and the strength and the official unit for measuring the strength of a punch would be PSI (Pounds per square inch) which is a unit of pressure rather than energy.

No, energy is actually is what causes damage. And yes, KE is in fact the most correct way to measure a punch, even though units of force seem more popular

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not entirely accurate; about energy = damage. There's soft bodies and objects to consider as well. I know who shouldn't over complicate the system like that, and there's also glass having more heat capacity than steel that you yourself brought up on another thread.

I agree KE of a punch is the best way to go. But I meant, some attacks do minimal damage over large areas while other attacks do massive damage to a small part for instance.

 

[KLOL506]

DDM is correct, and like Assalt and the others including me have said, KE alone isn't gonna cut it. Angle of impact, area of impact and pressure are to be taken into account.

Yes, KE is accurate for punches IRL despite not being enough to give a clearer picture but is a MASSIVE NO-NO for other destruction feats in fiction due to its inconsistency, otherwise anyone going at lightning speed would hit 8-A levels of energy or even higher despite not having feats on that level.

 

[Flashlight237]

Technically, damage output is based on Joules/cc and the strength and the official unit for measuring the strength of a punch would be PSI (Pounds per square inch) which is a unit of pressure rather than energy.

That's literally what I said when I said "Hey, skulls only need 2,300 newtons of force to be crushed" and everyone ignored me.

 

[Nemo212]

So our damage output is based on joules/cubic centimeter, not necessarily joules in general? In that case, I'm going to throw a sample calc for a real world animal here in here, and you tell me what you all think of it.

A large great barracuda specimen has a bite force of up to 58 Newtons .

Force Converter tells me that 58 Newtons is equal to 5800 J/cc.

Isn't that Wall level? Am I missing something, and if I am, how do I go about this from a bite force value in Newtons?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Why shouldn't KE be used if that animal can indeed generate that much KE? You should just specify that it isn't combat-applicable ad thats should be fine imo.

Yeah, the borders of 10-B always felt weird to me. Why is it 100 Joules in the first place?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The skull thing is based on how much energy is required to crush it via a single punch. Not that two metal pieces pushing on it from side to side, those effect it differently. Also, the strength of an average human punch is around 62-63 Joules iirc, which 70 would be the requirement for a "+" sign. But Human level+ being the stat of an average human seemed a bit weird, so 40 Joules seemed like a good baseline.

And, the KE of a bit force or claw would be reasonable, just not running at said speeds. Also Newtons to Joules isn't quantifiable without a launching distance.

 

[KLOL506]

So our damage output is based on joules/cubic centimeter, not necessarily joules in general? In that case, I'm going to throw a sample calc for a real world animal here in here, and you tell me what you all think of it.
A large great barracuda specimen has a bite force of up to 58 Newtons .

Force Converter tells me that 58 Newtons is equal to 5800 J/cc.

Isn't that Wall level? Am I missing something, and if I am, how do I go about this from a bite force value in Newtons?

I mean, you still need to now apply it on the maximum amount of volume it can generate that force on (Just figure out the volume of the barracuda's mouth). Then again, I'm not sure that converter has a joule/centimeter per cube, I only see joule/centimeter AKA it's not in three-dimensional.

Also it'd already be noted to be that level via bite force like we do for other animals anyway.

 

[DMUA]

Oh yeah, definitely

KE for animals in general is wack if they don't fight via charging, an elephant for example would damage it's skull if it hit something headfirst at full speed

 

[KLOL506]

Uhhhhh, DMUA...

Elephants headbutt into each other all the time. Trees even.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, rating via full speed tackles are pretty situational and do not apply for all offensive ways of an animal, most of them rarely uses tackles as offensive manoeuvres; plus, crashing against an immovable object at full speed is generally harmful, so you can't scale it to durability (durability in the real word also works different from what we does here), in the same way, the target do not fully tank all the force of the tackle most of time (at leats while being aware of the attack).

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with Antoniofer. Tackles should be checked case-by-case, one part of the body may be more durable than the other.

 

[DMUA]

Elephants headbutt into each other all the time. Trees even.

How fast

 

[KLOL506]

7 m/s, so not fast enough, though another source states the speed being 11 m/s

Though to be fair, I don't see why there's a need to use KE for the elephant at all, it could literally crush an entire human being just by standing on one and that'd yield almost similar values to an elephant's tackle. Not only that, they can just... you know, bust walls without even needing to run, they just need to push it down while standing still. And crush cars by stepping on them too.

AKA KE for elephants doesn't even match up to what stuff it destroys.

 

[Flashlight237]

Though to be fair, I don't see why there's a need to use KE for the elephant at all, it could literally crush an entire human being just by standing on one and that'd yield almost similar values to an elephant's tackle. Not only that, they can just... you know, bust walls without even needing to run, they just need to push it down while standing still. And crush cars by stepping on them too.

Exactly. There's an execution method where people have an elephant simply step on a person and BOOM! Person dead.

 

[Spinoirr]

So rip wall level tapir? What would it be instead thanks to it biting a chunk of a person off?

 

[Flashlight237]

So rip wall level tapir? What would it be instead thanks to it biting a chunk of a person off?

Most definitely Street level if it bit through bone (dunno if biting through bone counts as Street level+ since there's a difference between bites and impacts).

 

[Flashlight237]

I mean, you still need to now apply it on the maximum amount of volume it can generate that force on (Just figure out the volume of the barracuda's mouth).
Then again, I'm not sure that converter has a joule/centimeter per cube, I only see joule/centimeter AKA it's not in three-dimensional.

Also it'd already be noted to be that level via bite force like we do for other animals anyway.

Not really. The Barracuda's bite force in terms of KE is actually 2.8 joules: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Flashlight237/Great_Barracuda's_Bite_Force

 

[KLOL506]

I was talking about the 5800 J/cc thing, it wasn't correct in the first place anyway since you can't convert 2-D like bare newtons into 3-D like Joule per centimeter cube, not your new calc.

 

[Antvasima]

Has somebody asked DontTalkDT, Antoniofer, Mr. Bambu, and Executor N0 to comment here yet?

 

[Executor_N0]

I don't know if I have a lot of time to explain, but I agree that simply using "tackles" to calculate Attack Potency does not seem very good. Although it has always been confusing how these Tier levels works around here (Maybe we need more study about this here).

 

[Antvasima]

Help to figure out a workable system for lower real world tiers would be very appreciated.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not much to study, as researchers has made most of the work, animao's rating is generally definied by force, power or pressure units: force for tackles and bites, power for pushing (although is also stamina/endurave feat) and pressure is fore bites. Durability is not like fiction, they are as durable as the "material" they are made of and how big they are (although technically not durability, is just that the damage turn negligible).

The issue relies in trying to convert their ratings to our system.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Antoniofer When I said study, I was referring to study how our system really should work to deal with this situation, more explanation about how to deal with this type of stuff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Antoniofer is right that durability isn't something linear IRL and even in some fictional settings. And it's also similar to how the durability of various vehicles isn't linear the same way various characters are. Realistically, things are as durable as the stuff made of like most vehicles are made of solid steel or Titanium for instance. Unless it's made of some other fictional metal such as Adamantium. And some characters, it's because they body has stuff like KI which makes their bones, flesh, and muscles more durable than normal; though not every verse explains that and it just has people with superhuman durability. And it's also a reason why pressure resistance =/= Heat Capacity among other things.

But yeah, a lot of larger objects just has the energy more wide spread and not so much precise. Like a 300 Joule punch to the face is definitely far more deadly than a 300 Joule fall or body slam.

 

[KLOL506]

Only car that actually uses titanium on a big scale is the Pagani Huayra tho DDM. Otherwise it's generally carbon fiber or steel.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I know that. But there are battle tanks made of Ceramic Titanium, but the point was that IRL, those are only as durable as the components they're made of.

 

[KLOL506]

Fair point.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Why can't we just say a character is "willing to tackle" or something in threads?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even if someone tackles, their tackles don't actually do as much damage despite having 9-C calculations.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask DontTalkDT to comment here?

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Rough Sample calc for bite: Human.

Surface Area of Human Mouth: 214.7 +/- 12.9 cm^2; Teeth = 20%; Human Bite Force: 162 PSI = 1.11695 MPa = 1.1695 J/cc

Teeth Area = Area of Mouth * 0.20

Radius (using semi-circle for simplicity A=pi/2*r^2) = Sqare Root of (Teeth Area / Pi * 2) [5.07 cm, 5.23 cm, 5.38 cm]. Use this radius to calculate circumference (divide by 2 for semicircle): 15.92 cm, 16.43 cm, 16.91 cm. This is the distance the bite occurs over.

Small Mouth Human: 40.36 cm^2 * 15.92 cm * 1.1695 J/cc = 717.8780 J (9-C)

Average Mouth Human: 42.94 cm^2 * 16.43 cm * 1.1695 J/cc = 787.8018 J (9-C)

Large Mouth Human: 45.52 cm^2 * 16.91 cm * 1.1695 J/cc = 859.8591 J (9-C)

This could apply to an average cannibal, a street fighter, a zombie that has all its teeth, or Mike Tyso. Is the human mouth a perfect semi-circle? No, but it should be fairly close. {Does assume you can actually get all your teeth into the bite - like bite vs mouth guard; Actual bite force would be over a smaller area/distance}.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask DontTalkDT to comment here?

 

[KLOL506]

DONE.

 

[Ugarik]

What is this? Maximum work you can do in one bite?

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't think that formula is valid, it uses the bite pressure like it were a destruction constant.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't really know how to calculate AP for all the animals either. Presumably we would need to look for some member of the species performing an actual feat or something. Not something easily done for 231 animal species (Do we really need 6 kinds of sea star?)

Real Life quantification is also really not our area of expertise, due to our simplified system.

 

[Ugarik]

The best one would probably the the maximum power output but it can be very hard to calculate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it might be case by case for Real World profiles, but I do agree that simple bites, claws, and bunches should be separated from full body ramming attacks.