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''waits for kkapios to debunk post...........''
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PreTimeskip Bleach Speed
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
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He made sure to avoid the tip of the sword being in the same line as he was in order to avoid it.
That may be it's point but the reasons you guys come up with aren't good enough.This whole couldn't have become stronger is like saying inconsistencies don't exist here because they shouldn't exist.The statement about shinigami limits is also false since authors don't work with numbers ,they just draw feats they find cool.
That may be it's point but the reasons you guys come up with aren't good enough.This whole couldn't have become stronger is like saying inconsistencies don't exist here because they shouldn't exist.The statement about shinigami limits is also false since authors don't work with numbers ,they just draw feats they find cool.
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"Anyway i won't discuss this further ,i suggest you ask the rest of the staff for input and if they agree with what you are saying then i'm fine with it."
but this got turned on it's head when it wasn't going your way, so now even though staff agree, you are now disagreeing again. this is quite amazing.
but this got turned on it's head when it wasn't going your way, so now even though staff agree, you are now disagreeing again. this is quite amazing.
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@Kkapoios: I'll say this again you can't avoid something MHS which doesn't have an apparent trigger which can be seen unless you are MHS...
Yeah... again we're trying to make it less inconsistent. In pre-timeskip every character is rated at mach 29+ which is wrong. We know a lot of the high tiers are much much faster but we didn't have a specific speed to go by so we rated them at the same level.
You're statements are actually making it even more inconsistent...
Yeah... again we're trying to make it less inconsistent. In pre-timeskip every character is rated at mach 29+ which is wrong. We know a lot of the high tiers are much much faster but we didn't have a specific speed to go by so we rated them at the same level.
You're statements are actually making it even more inconsistent...
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Hmm.
We had a previous such instance of Naruto dodging Toneri's sword determined as far less impressive than the extension speed due to standing a considerable distance away.
That said, I agree that it seems illogical that Kyoraku would get particularly more powerful in just 2 years.
We had a previous such instance of Naruto dodging Toneri's sword determined as far less impressive than the extension speed due to standing a considerable distance away.
That said, I agree that it seems illogical that Kyoraku would get particularly more powerful in just 2 years.
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The staff didn't agree ,only Ziel did and for the most part he talked about post time skip and what he said was reasonable.
Illuminati didn't even provide his opinion ,Ant is generally tired and tries to avoid arguing.
@LordAizenSama that was 3 days ago and i didn't have the needed time and energy to provide my full opinion ,now i'm better and i have all the rights to comment on this thread and argue with you.
@Ziel I'm not trying to make this more inconsistent ,i'm just stating that your poitns don't make it more consistent even though that's what you're trying to do.If the dodging wasn't aimdodging then that would upgrade ichigo's reflexes to MHS and other characters would be upgraded as well ,but Ichigo himself said he couldn't even see the sword when coming back and he had his eyes on it all the time.
Illuminati didn't even provide his opinion ,Ant is generally tired and tries to avoid arguing.
@LordAizenSama that was 3 days ago and i didn't have the needed time and energy to provide my full opinion ,now i'm better and i have all the rights to comment on this thread and argue with you.
@Ziel I'm not trying to make this more inconsistent ,i'm just stating that your poitns don't make it more consistent even though that's what you're trying to do.If the dodging wasn't aimdodging then that would upgrade ichigo's reflexes to MHS and other characters would be upgraded as well ,but Ichigo himself said he couldn't even see the sword when coming back and he had his eyes on it all the time.
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But that was still rated as being MHS+ either way. It was just that the feat was too insignificant for an upgrade...
Finally someone gets it...
Finally someone gets it...
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well kkapoios, if you are ready to argue why don't u start with that post i made about a hour ago that you still haven't replied to.
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What was rated as MHS+ ?SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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So you apparently believe that Byakuya's Bankai = mach 29. Byakuya's Bankai <<<< Bankai Ichigo who has little to no traning <<<< Grinnjow <<<< Ulquiorra <<<< Aizen = Mach 29.... yeah not accepting this would make it far more inconsistent....Kkapoios said:
And that's exactly why I said the upgrade would apply to people who are very very strong and far stronger than Bankai Ichigo such as R2 Ulquiorra, Aizen, etc.
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What was rated as MHS+ ?
Naruto blocking Toneri's sword with a rasengan...
Naruto blocking Toneri's sword with a rasengan...
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What Aizen said holds no "power" it just said that Shinigami can't surprus a certain limit he didn't say what this limit was.Again this proves nothing about the inconsistencies Kubo just draws feats to make them fast not knowing how fast exacly.LordAizenSama said:
@Ziel Of course Aizen ,Ulq etc aren't mach 29 but that doesn't make them mach 100 or mach 500.
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I give up arguing here for now... I'll just be back with a calc... if I can actually find something...
For now I need to go...
For now I need to go...
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Powerscaling should actually be applicable to verses outside of Marvel and DC, seeing as how these two companies have hordes of writers so what a writer says in a story can contradict another, while verses with only one author have words that can be considered absolute.
We should ignore powerscaling for Marvel and DC, though it should be applicable to verses with only a single author, and in this case, Bleach.
We should ignore powerscaling for Marvel and DC, though it should be applicable to verses with only a single author, and in this case, Bleach.
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like i said, Shunsui was likely already at his peak, he was a captain for atleast 210 years, and existed for 1000 years.so you'd have to be saying for a 1000 years he stayed mach 29, and then in just 17 months, with no training and being at the limit of his strength, is now MHS+.and your defense to this was well it happened but instead of this being his strength previously, it has magicly just came from nowhere.
also he was saying hitsugaya could catch up to him in 100 YEARS pre timeskip. what good would that do if he gets 100x faster in 17 months?
...of course he doesn't know how fast hes drawing things to be, do you expect authors to scale them perfectly??
also he was saying hitsugaya could catch up to him in 100 YEARS pre timeskip. what good would that do if he gets 100x faster in 17 months?
...of course he doesn't know how fast hes drawing things to be, do you expect authors to scale them perfectly??
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there is also other ways. Now as you yourself said, Ichigo had MHS reaction speed to react to gins bankai . now take a look at this, Ichigo cannot even react to Aize from god knows how far away.
EDIT: thanks ant, makes me feel less crazy..
EDIT: thanks ant, makes me feel less crazy..
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Kkapoios is making it more inconsistent then it needs to be . Kyoraku getting faster with no training in just 2 years makes no sense. He said it would take 100 years for Hitsugaya to be on same level. 2 years is nothing. Speed bumps have to be logical
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"Illuminati didn't even provide his opinion ,Ant is generally tired and tries to avoid arguing."
i don't believe i need to provide my opinion when i really don't have a helpful one, but since you were ranting, i might as well provide my useless opinion. it as obvious that preskip Bleach characters were faster than mach 29 as it is obvious that can't rank them to be such.
while it may sound confusing so let me explain it: mach 29 is the speed that bankai byakuya is rated at while in "using his hands" mode, bankai ichigo is faster then that, ulquiorra was faster than ichigo, stark was faster then ulquiorra, base Aizen was faster then stark, and trancendant Aizen is even faster. So we have a powerscaling basis that suggest an evolution of speed, but as fitting as it is we don't have any concrete feats to suggest a quantifibly higher speed ranking then mach 29... the short version is yes,obviously preskip bleach characters are faster then mach 29, but we don't know by how much. and as such the rules of powerscaling say that we must scale them to the lowest verified number which is mach 29.
if one can find a plausible speed feat that i can calculate in order to change the vacancy of calcs regarding that topic it would be welcomed, but untill we get more calcs or other segnificant feats, the current ranking for preskip bleach will stay as they are.
as for the gin issue, Kubo obviously regretted planting that number in, its obvious from what he had gin admitting to Aizen, and yes while gin didn't necessarily tell Aizen what he told ichigo, it still pits the number into question, also dodging MHS objects doesn't mean you are MHS, it depands on the distanse between you and the starting point of the object before the motion began, i thought we cleared the air about this back on the "naruto dodging toneri's sword" conversation.
again to summerize, the powerscaling works, we just lack feats...
i don't believe i need to provide my opinion when i really don't have a helpful one, but since you were ranting, i might as well provide my useless opinion. it as obvious that preskip Bleach characters were faster than mach 29 as it is obvious that can't rank them to be such.
while it may sound confusing so let me explain it: mach 29 is the speed that bankai byakuya is rated at while in "using his hands" mode, bankai ichigo is faster then that, ulquiorra was faster than ichigo, stark was faster then ulquiorra, base Aizen was faster then stark, and trancendant Aizen is even faster. So we have a powerscaling basis that suggest an evolution of speed, but as fitting as it is we don't have any concrete feats to suggest a quantifibly higher speed ranking then mach 29... the short version is yes,obviously preskip bleach characters are faster then mach 29, but we don't know by how much. and as such the rules of powerscaling say that we must scale them to the lowest verified number which is mach 29.
if one can find a plausible speed feat that i can calculate in order to change the vacancy of calcs regarding that topic it would be welcomed, but untill we get more calcs or other segnificant feats, the current ranking for preskip bleach will stay as they are.
as for the gin issue, Kubo obviously regretted planting that number in, its obvious from what he had gin admitting to Aizen, and yes while gin didn't necessarily tell Aizen what he told ichigo, it still pits the number into question, also dodging MHS objects doesn't mean you are MHS, it depands on the distanse between you and the starting point of the object before the motion began, i thought we cleared the air about this back on the "naruto dodging toneri's sword" conversation.
again to summerize, the powerscaling works, we just lack feats...
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Ones opinion is never useless if he uses logic to suport it.
Well since most people agree with the upgrades the final result in my opinion should be this:
Ichigo =High Hypersonic with low MHS reactions (was able to somewhat percieve Gin's Bankai)
Aizen = MHS (Blitzed Ichigo)
Urahara ,Yoruichi ,Isshin ,Shunsui ,Ulquiorra = MHS
I'm not sure about Starrk being faster than Ulquiorra ,and for the most part of his fight with Shunsui he couldn't even hit him and Shunsui wasn't that serious.So he should be the same as Ichigo or just MHS
Grimmjow = High Hypersonic with MHS reactions
Gin = Same as Starrk
Dangai Ichigo and Monster Aizen = MHS+ (as transcendent beings they should be higher than anyone except Yhwach)
Well since most people agree with the upgrades the final result in my opinion should be this:
Ichigo =High Hypersonic with low MHS reactions (was able to somewhat percieve Gin's Bankai)
Aizen = MHS (Blitzed Ichigo)
Urahara ,Yoruichi ,Isshin ,Shunsui ,Ulquiorra = MHS
I'm not sure about Starrk being faster than Ulquiorra ,and for the most part of his fight with Shunsui he couldn't even hit him and Shunsui wasn't that serious.So he should be the same as Ichigo or just MHS
Grimmjow = High Hypersonic with MHS reactions
Gin = Same as Starrk
Dangai Ichigo and Monster Aizen = MHS+ (as transcendent beings they should be higher than anyone except Yhwach)
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i just said that i didn't agree with pre skip Bleach being upgraded, preskip Bleach lacks speed feats, therfore we cannot upgrade them...its that simple, they are certainly faster then mach 29, but not in a way we can quantify, there for we can't upgrade. i also cleared the air about dodging gin's bankai, did i not?
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Yea I agree, the whole Mach 500 sword thing is questionable as Illuminati said so I think we should just drop that aspect. I do think they should still be MHS though as the power scaling does work out well and also their is no way people like Ulquiorra are still Mach 29 after segunda etapa or whatever it's called lol they should probably be in the low triple digit mach in my opinion after all the forms they go through.
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Sorry i misunderstand your last statement about powerscaling.
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as long as there are no calculations (or other relevant information), an upgrade cannot be awarded even if a certain a character has 10 upgrades plot, you can't just assume speed without a calc anymore than you can assume DC without a calc....UzumakiKurisu said:
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^if we had feats, why would we need the powerscaling in the first place? the lack of feats IS a reason that powerscaling is used, not a reason why it cannot be used..
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you can't powerscale character's to MHS without haveing at list one character with an MHS feat...
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Shunsui is around the same speed as he was pretimeskip as his power has not increased. so powerscaling to current shunsui.
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There are feats, this is backwards scaling to fix the current inconsistency stats. If you have problem with backward scaling then you may speak aloudIlluminati478 said:
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i do, you can't power scale backwards unless you are absolutly certain some characters were ultimately superior to the new cast, whic only applies to three preskip characters as far as i am concernd: trancendant Aizen, Dangai Ichigo and Yama-G.
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that is irrelevant,Shunsui's power did not increase. the rest of the cast is of little concern here. those mentioned here can match those in the current arcs. obviously being = or better than shunsui.
I ask you this, Do you think Shunsui got stronger over the 17 month break? and if so, why?
I ask you this, Do you think Shunsui got stronger over the 17 month break? and if so, why?
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Technically the whole Genkai is Aizen's words over everyone else. No one else ever mentioned that they reached their maximum potential in the series to my knowledge. He could have just made a reason to justify his actions for going rouge.
Indirectly he's also stating that Vizards are the strongest characters which isn't true.
Indirectly he's also stating that Vizards are the strongest characters which isn't true.
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what i said is the way we powerscale here if you want to powerscale backwards, no series is exempt from it, you can bring me all the anecdotes you want about no power increase or whatever, but in the end you can't prove that, and as such only few characters can be powescaled, Yama-g who was on Yhwach level and is scalable to sternritter/ elite sternritter feats (or lack there of in the case of the latter), trancendant Aizen through being confirme by series rules to be superior to all other cast characters that aren't transcendant and Dangai Ichigo for the same reason... thats is my opinion and it will not change.
"Technically the whole Genkai is Aizen's words over everyone else. No one else ever mentioned that they reached their maximum potential in the series to my knowledge. He could have just made a reason to justify his actions for going rouge."
except the fact that it was later proven to be true, because he reached his limit and forced/ forced himslef using the hogyoku to evolve...
"Indirectly he's also stating that Vizards are the strongest characters which isn't true."
Aizen stated that each Shinigami has different limits, it could be that most of the vizard cast had lower limit points, or simply hadn't reached their limits...
"Technically the whole Genkai is Aizen's words over everyone else. No one else ever mentioned that they reached their maximum potential in the series to my knowledge. He could have just made a reason to justify his actions for going rouge."
except the fact that it was later proven to be true, because he reached his limit and forced/ forced himslef using the hogyoku to evolve...
"Indirectly he's also stating that Vizards are the strongest characters which isn't true."
Aizen stated that each Shinigami has different limits, it could be that most of the vizard cast had lower limit points, or simply hadn't reached their limits...
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again, do you think shunsui is the same level of strength pre time skip to post time skip?
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Well can we come to a decision for this...
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What are all these complications for? I think anyone who read Bleach should know how superior preskip fighters are to early Bankai Ichigo. Just list them as "Massively Hypersonic to an unknown degree by vritue of powerscaling.".
And like Aizen said, we powerscale because there are no feats, and we can't resort to not doing the characters justice just because of that when we really know they're actually faster than what they're listed as. Upgrade them, but don't specify the degree like Low/Mid-MHS or whatever.
And like Aizen said, we powerscale because there are no feats, and we can't resort to not doing the characters justice just because of that when we really know they're actually faster than what they're listed as. Upgrade them, but don't specify the degree like Low/Mid-MHS or whatever.
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i do, its slightly suggested at best and baseless at worst, you can not powerscale backwards unless you are sure the characters you powerscale were ultimately stronger then the characters who preformed the feat. and that is especially true when talking about powerscaling to before a timeskip, also you can't just powescale generally, thats the same as asserting without evidence if you are going to powerscale, at least scale them to a feat like soifon's or bambi-fodder. you can't just say generally MHS without any known degree or border, thats not how powerscaling works...
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But we can't let all of them sit at Mach 29 when we know they're faster either, something has to be done. Also, didn't base Grimmjow blitz early Bankai Ichigo who then got saved by Shinji afterwards? That's something to work off of. And Grimmjow is only ranked 6th in power among the Espada. Yes, assumptions must be made, however, no verse, and I mean no verse can have its power gauged purely off-of calcs, we need powerscaling, no matter how vague, even if it was backwards scaling.
Also, @LordAizenSama, while I'm with you on this one, I would like to point out that it's a bit of a common trope in shounen manga that characters become more powerful with time without training or newly gained powers. Look at pre-skip Luffy, never trained a day, but he got more powerful with each arc.
Also, @LordAizenSama, while I'm with you on this one, I would like to point out that it's a bit of a common trope in shounen manga that characters become more powerful with time without training or newly gained powers. Look at pre-skip Luffy, never trained a day, but he got more powerful with each arc.
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