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PreTimeskip Bleach Speed
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
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Barragan... No feats to suggest he's on Starrk's level... He could slow down time a little bit but that's all...KamiYasha said:
Harribel... Even if I like her a lot the fact that Toshiro could keep up with her should prove that she wasn't that fast...
pre-post time skip byakuya... seriously the dude that got the hell blitzed out of him by an amateur Ichigo who had just gained his bankai...
Other Sternritters... depends...
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@Antvasima: Alright then... although what of the possible downgrades I mentioned what do ya think of those...
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Alright then... well good night Antvasima and sleep tight I guess...
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Hmm...
Now the Elite Sternritter... ok I can't say I agree with placing them at MHS+ as we didn't even properly view their fight with the RG members. So for them their speed stats should be: At least Massively Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+...
^ Agreed.
Now we come to Kyoraku... well he should likely get the same scaling of: At least Massively Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+...
^ I guess this is acceptable.
Now another thing I would like to add here is Gin's Bankai of Mach 500. Now before everyone says he lied. I'd like to say two things... well one thing actually...
1) We don't know if he lied to both Ichigo and Aizen for all we know he could've said something different to Aizen. But this is a useless point as I can come up with two reasons why he would tell the same thing to both Aizen and Ichigo...
2) Even if Gin did lie to both Aizen and Ichigo. I highly doubt that Ichigo wouldn't notice if his bankai was far slower then what Gin said and same would Aizen hell it'd be impossible for Aizen to not notice if Gin's Bankai speed was so much slower than what he said it was...
Because of the above reasons I wouldn't really say that Gin's Bankai speed isn't MHS even if it isn't Mach 500...
^ However fast his Bankai is it doesn't have feats that suggest that it's around mach 174 because Bleach has just achieved lightning timer feats in the current arc where characters are much stronger. Unless there's something I'm not considering of course.
Now the Elite Sternritter... ok I can't say I agree with placing them at MHS+ as we didn't even properly view their fight with the RG members. So for them their speed stats should be: At least Massively Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+...
^ Agreed.
Now we come to Kyoraku... well he should likely get the same scaling of: At least Massively Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+...
^ I guess this is acceptable.
Now another thing I would like to add here is Gin's Bankai of Mach 500. Now before everyone says he lied. I'd like to say two things... well one thing actually...
1) We don't know if he lied to both Ichigo and Aizen for all we know he could've said something different to Aizen. But this is a useless point as I can come up with two reasons why he would tell the same thing to both Aizen and Ichigo...
2) Even if Gin did lie to both Aizen and Ichigo. I highly doubt that Ichigo wouldn't notice if his bankai was far slower then what Gin said and same would Aizen hell it'd be impossible for Aizen to not notice if Gin's Bankai speed was so much slower than what he said it was...
Because of the above reasons I wouldn't really say that Gin's Bankai speed isn't MHS even if it isn't Mach 500...
^ However fast his Bankai is it doesn't have feats that suggest that it's around mach 174 because Bleach has just achieved lightning timer feats in the current arc where characters are much stronger. Unless there's something I'm not considering of course.
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What downgrades are you speaking of?SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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Oh.... apparently Bleach needs feats all the time now huh...
Tell ya what Non-Bias DB Part 1 is rated at MHS at the end with no feats whatsoever and with a simple statement... first before arguing that bleach needs feats I'd like ya to get that MHS stats from Dragon Ball Part 1 removed...
Oh and again there's literally no possible way that Ichigo and Aizen of all people would fail to notice if his Bankai was actually far slower than mach 500...
Tell ya what Non-Bias DB Part 1 is rated at MHS at the end with no feats whatsoever and with a simple statement... first before arguing that bleach needs feats I'd like ya to get that MHS stats from Dragon Ball Part 1 removed...
Oh and again there's literally no possible way that Ichigo and Aizen of all people would fail to notice if his Bankai was actually far slower than mach 500...
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What downgrades are you speaking of?
Look at the above wall of text I posted and you'll understand...
Look at the above wall of text I posted and you'll understand...
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They're all already rated at MHS or MHS+ I believe...KamiYasha said:
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^The elite sternritters right?
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And the RG members to an extent...
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It's good to have something to go by before everything is assumed in my opinion. For example if Ichigo (or Zangetsu) stated his Bankai made him as fast as lightning, we'd have something to go by. See what I mean?SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
Well honestly I only read DBZ in the manga so I wouldn't really know what you're talking about.
Why is that? Is it because their smart or something?
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It's not assumed... and Bankai Ichigo ain't getting scaled to anything only the strongest of the high tiers are... and we're are still technically gonna scale from Kyoraku...
Heh... really now... well I'll still say this again this upgrade even if it were with using the Mach 500 statement whic it technically isn't should still go by as long as the Part 1 DB speeds of MHS are accepted...
Obviously...
Also you said something about mach 174 feats... what were those...
Heh... really now... well I'll still say this again this upgrade even if it were with using the Mach 500 statement whic it technically isn't should still go by as long as the Part 1 DB speeds of MHS are accepted...
Obviously...
Also you said something about mach 174 feats... what were those...
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you know something that never made sense about gin's bankai being slower than mach 500 . If he told aizen his bankai was mach 500 then either aizen would've felt secure because he know he could react to it or he would've been completely on guard because he wouldn't be able to react to it so either way he would never hit aizen with his bankai if it was slower than the number he told aizen (we don't know for sure he told ichigo and aizen the same thing in the first place). At least this is what Gin should be thinking.
If gin really wanted to trick aizen he would tell him a lower number than the true speed so mach 500 would be the minimum speed his bankai could be. Also I don't know about every translation but 'not that fast' doesn't technically mean 'slower than' so hes not exactly contradicting this logic. I mean there really is no reason for gin to give aizen a speed for his bankai thats higher than the true value and it would only be detrimental to his attempted assassination later on for him to do that. Gin is supposed to be a pretty smart guy.
If gin really wanted to trick aizen he would tell him a lower number than the true speed so mach 500 would be the minimum speed his bankai could be. Also I don't know about every translation but 'not that fast' doesn't technically mean 'slower than' so hes not exactly contradicting this logic. I mean there really is no reason for gin to give aizen a speed for his bankai thats higher than the true value and it would only be detrimental to his attempted assassination later on for him to do that. Gin is supposed to be a pretty smart guy.
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the thing is, most manga authors do not generally like to involve those kind of statements. i don't know why did kubo choose to make such a statement about gin's bankai, but he obviously regretted doing that as he later had Gin say a line that would put that number into question.
a grater example of this would be how he could have had yoruichi saying a concrete number regarding the size of the seireitei (which would be less feat dropping as it would have been a numerical statement that would have had a purpose in the plot other then potentially exgerating feats or characters) but he avoided doing so and instead had given an unquantifible and slightly ambigoues character statement.
Mangaka like Kubo, Toriyama, Kishimoto, Oda and others cater to the market that is interested to the plot of the story they are creating, what we are doing here is not what they would have us do with their works if given the choice. it is very likely to me, that none of the mangaka stated above would want us to support the main characters of their stories for the sole reason of "xxx is strong", they may create relative strength levels inside the plot (which we call powerscaling), but they would rather have us hating the main characters then supporting them because of their strength...thats a short explanation of there aren't many numerical statements in manga.
as for the mach 174 figure, that was just the bare minimum for lightning timing...
a grater example of this would be how he could have had yoruichi saying a concrete number regarding the size of the seireitei (which would be less feat dropping as it would have been a numerical statement that would have had a purpose in the plot other then potentially exgerating feats or characters) but he avoided doing so and instead had given an unquantifible and slightly ambigoues character statement.
Mangaka like Kubo, Toriyama, Kishimoto, Oda and others cater to the market that is interested to the plot of the story they are creating, what we are doing here is not what they would have us do with their works if given the choice. it is very likely to me, that none of the mangaka stated above would want us to support the main characters of their stories for the sole reason of "xxx is strong", they may create relative strength levels inside the plot (which we call powerscaling), but they would rather have us hating the main characters then supporting them because of their strength...thats a short explanation of there aren't many numerical statements in manga.
as for the mach 174 figure, that was just the bare minimum for lightning timing...
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@Anon: Gin's statement that his bankai doesn't extend as long as he said it did points towards his statement of his bankai not being as fast as he said he was being that it was slower than what he said it was...
@Illuminati: We will never know why Kubo does things the way he does. Even still though if we want to form a logical conclusion from things he's put up we still would have to consider that that the Bankai would not be so much slower...
@Illuminati: We will never know why Kubo does things the way he does. Even still though if we want to form a logical conclusion from things he's put up we still would have to consider that that the Bankai would not be so much slower...
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not being as long can mean longer the same way not as fast can mean faster. If you take those statements literally they just mean not the same as. So it could be faster, slower, longer or shorter. And since its a translation from such a different language to english i don't think it can be argued that those phrases have come to mean slower and shorter than. Not until a reliable translator translates it literally for us.SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
And then as i said theres i honestly believe theres no logical reason anyone can come up with why gin would've said his bankai was faster than it actually was to the person he was trying to catch off guard
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- Thread starter
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hmmm, reading schutz' reply I agree with what he said.
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So can I apply the changes I mentioned or not...
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What makes these pre time skip characters MHS? I can get why Final Form Aizen and Dangai ichigo would be MHS or MHS+ but everyone else is irrelevant to Gin's Bankai.
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Scaling from Kyoraku mostly...
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You mean scaling from his future self? We've already been here and decided that scaling pre time skip from post time skip isn't good due to inconsistencies and general increase of power levels during time skips ,and before you mention DB (a verse i have almost 0 knowledge of) Pre time skip Naruto characters are rated as supersonic while post time skip High Hypersonic to MHS.
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1) No we haven't...
2) Name 1 Naruto character that's over 1000 years, get's apparently 100 X faster over two years and if ya can... I'll argue for Naruto as well...
2) Name 1 Naruto character that's over 1000 years, get's apparently 100 X faster over two years and if ya can... I'll argue for Naruto as well...
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Also you seem to be forgetting that Ichigo was capable of blocking Gin's Bankai extension...
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"Actually they have a good reason to get faster.It's an unwritten rule that verses get more powerful as the story progresses.
Anyway i won't discuss this further ,i suggest you ask the rest of the staff for input and if they agree with what you are saying then i'm fine with it."
So why are you having problems now. and who decided what exactly? nobody decided anything.. im sure you'd rather have them all mach 29 because apparently that is much more logical..
I showed you reasons why shunsui did not get stronger, and the answers you gave me was "the verse got stronger for no reason" and to that i say to you "absence of proof is not proof of absence", it makes way more sense to assume they had this speed all along and just had no quantifyable way of showing it;which makes alot more sense considering they are all mach 29 even when they speedblitz eachother over and over. If you can debunk my post, and what Aizen said, then ill be much more inclined to accept your version of events
Anyway i won't discuss this further ,i suggest you ask the rest of the staff for input and if they agree with what you are saying then i'm fine with it."
So why are you having problems now. and who decided what exactly? nobody decided anything.. im sure you'd rather have them all mach 29 because apparently that is much more logical..
I showed you reasons why shunsui did not get stronger, and the answers you gave me was "the verse got stronger for no reason" and to that i say to you "absence of proof is not proof of absence", it makes way more sense to assume they had this speed all along and just had no quantifyable way of showing it;which makes alot more sense considering they are all mach 29 even when they speedblitz eachother over and over. If you can debunk my post, and what Aizen said, then ill be much more inclined to accept your version of events
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1) https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/131316
2) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hatake_Kakashi He went from supersonic+ (mach 2.5-5) to mach 449 by powerscaling
2) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hatake_Kakashi He went from supersonic+ (mach 2.5-5) to mach 449 by powerscaling
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Ichigo merely followed Gin's hand movements to block his bankai ,the sword totally blitzed him.SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
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Is he over 1000 years old...
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So age makes the difference?
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Ichigo merely followed Gin's hand movements to block his bankai ,the sword totally blitzed him.
I beg to differ he cleanly avoided it...
I beg to differ he cleanly avoided it...
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And what... Kyoraku is over 1000 years old. It's completely illogical to think that he'd get the slightest bit faster by just by training less than 2 years...
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Aimdodging... that's only possible in guns or things which have a trigger. You can time your movement based off of looking at the trigger...
For this however Ichigo has no way of knowing when the sword will extend ... as such unless he has at least reactions on par with the sword's extension speed he wouldn't be capable of dodging it...
For this however Ichigo has no way of knowing when the sword will extend ... as such unless he has at least reactions on par with the sword's extension speed he wouldn't be capable of dodging it...
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@Ziel Ichigo was standing a decent distance from Gin which means he wouldn't have to be mach 500 to see the blade coming to him ,maybe his reactions were MHS but his movement speed wasn't.On the same image Ichigo said he couldn't even see the blade coming back.
So training time has to be a decent persentage of someones age to be effective ,and i'm not even talking about training just inconsistencies.
It was aimdodging ,the sword acts much like a gun and Gin pointed ichigo with it during the fight making it obvious that he was attacking.
So training time has to be a decent persentage of someones age to be effective ,and i'm not even talking about training just inconsistencies.
It was aimdodging ,the sword acts much like a gun and Gin pointed ichigo with it during the fight making it obvious that he was attacking.
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@Kkapoios: Yeah and where was it shown that Ichigo was always looking at the sword. He diverted away when he dodged...and when he looked at it again the sword had already retracted. This simply shows that the sword is fast...
Where'd that come from. The whole point of this thread is to make sure inconsistencies aren't here...
What... for a gun you can see the trigger for the sword ya can't... there's no possible way of dodging a bullet unless you time your movement based on when the trigger was pulled...
Where'd that come from. The whole point of this thread is to make sure inconsistencies aren't here...
What... for a gun you can see the trigger for the sword ya can't... there's no possible way of dodging a bullet unless you time your movement based on when the trigger was pulled...
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