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I have to agree heavily with Ryu regarding this subject, even if I'm only a passive Marvel reader. We can't go around calling "inconsistency" when nothing suggests it to be so.
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Pre-Retcon Molecule Man AP Justification Change
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
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Given that Matthew completely misunderstood my viewpoints earlier, what exactly do you agree with Ryukama about? The only thing that this disagreement has truly been about is backwards scaling to a retconned character.
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Has Matthew admitted to misunderstanding your PoV? And what's the counter to Ryukama's analogy regarding the "backward scaling" issue?
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Matthew initially claimed that I thought things or wanted to push changes that I did not intend.
Anyway, I have worked for almost 12 hours with the wiki today, so I am tired and dizzy to the point of being about to fall over. As such, it is very hard for me to currently make any good non-repetitive arguments, and I would appreciate if you read through all of my earlier posts in order before drawing any conclusions. Thank you.
To me, all of this has essentially been about whether we should continue to scale the pre-retcon Beyonder from Oblivion, or if we should scale him from all power-levels ever introduced by Marvel in any old and new characters alike for all future, decades after he was decided to be a cosmic cube. I personally think that the latter approach would be extremely unwise.
Anyway, I have worked for almost 12 hours with the wiki today, so I am tired and dizzy to the point of being about to fall over. As such, it is very hard for me to currently make any good non-repetitive arguments, and I would appreciate if you read through all of my earlier posts in order before drawing any conclusions. Thank you.
To me, all of this has essentially been about whether we should continue to scale the pre-retcon Beyonder from Oblivion, or if we should scale him from all power-levels ever introduced by Marvel in any old and new characters alike for all future, decades after he was decided to be a cosmic cube. I personally think that the latter approach would be extremely unwise.
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I completely agree with Matt on everything.
"What Ryukama suggests is scaling TLT from Oblivion based on the fact that The Living Tribunal is always stated to be the most powerful cosmic."
Exactly this.
And Beyonder and Molecule Man were explictly superior to The Living Tribunal prior to their retcon. This isn't "backwards scaling to retconned characters" or anything.
TLT is ___ level. Beyonder before his retcon was superior to TLT. So Pre Retcon Beyonder is ___ level. However we don't scale Beyonder after his retcon to that, since he is no longer superior to TLT.
Now if you want to say that TLT isn't stronger than Oblivion back in Secret Wars. Or say that TLT being stronger than Oblivion is a retcon or an inconsistency from Secret Wars, you have to prove that. You cannot call something a inconsistency or a retcon without first proving how they are inconsistent or how it's a retcon from previous events.
Also why do you keep going on about "Doctor Strange can break his spell" when in that exact same comic Doctor Strange himself admits multiple times that TLT is vastly superior to him and could kill him with absolutely no effort at all? You're ignoring full context to make a point.
"What Ryukama suggests is scaling TLT from Oblivion based on the fact that The Living Tribunal is always stated to be the most powerful cosmic."
Exactly this.
And Beyonder and Molecule Man were explictly superior to The Living Tribunal prior to their retcon. This isn't "backwards scaling to retconned characters" or anything.
TLT is ___ level. Beyonder before his retcon was superior to TLT. So Pre Retcon Beyonder is ___ level. However we don't scale Beyonder after his retcon to that, since he is no longer superior to TLT.
Now if you want to say that TLT isn't stronger than Oblivion back in Secret Wars. Or say that TLT being stronger than Oblivion is a retcon or an inconsistency from Secret Wars, you have to prove that. You cannot call something a inconsistency or a retcon without first proving how they are inconsistent or how it's a retcon from previous events.
Also why do you keep going on about "Doctor Strange can break his spell" when in that exact same comic Doctor Strange himself admits multiple times that TLT is vastly superior to him and could kill him with absolutely no effort at all? You're ignoring full context to make a point.
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I just have to agree with Ryu here. You have still not explained why it's inconsistent or why it's a retcon.
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.... Wow. This surely escalated while I was gone.
I definitely agree with Kepekley , Ryu , and Matthew here.
I definitely agree with Kepekley , Ryu , and Matthew here.
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I agree with Ryu.
Meanwhile as my short explanation goes unoticed once again.
Meanwhile as my short explanation goes unoticed once again.
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Not outright stated, and he is stronger than Multi-Eternity even if he is a function in the sense that he exists to maintain Multi-Eternity.Antvasima said:If anybody is interested, here is where the Living Tribunal was stated to be a mere function within Multi-Eternity:
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Ah, guys...
I don't wanna be rude or anything, but isn't this debate on The Living Tribunal and Consistency within Marvel Comics kinda derailing the thread?
I'd prefer if we could get back on topic, please.
I don't wanna be rude or anything, but isn't this debate on The Living Tribunal and Consistency within Marvel Comics kinda derailing the thread?
I'd prefer if we could get back on topic, please.
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@Ryukama
The problem is that the Living Tribunal was never stated to be superior to Oblivion back in those days, or even compared with the entity in any way. He was stated outright to just be one of several of the most powerful entities within the multiverse, and I have now shown several scans for that the definitions of his nature and power level have changed over the years, as you wanted. As such, the burden of proof is on you and others to find some evidence for that the 1985 Tribunal scaled from Oblivion. Mind you, currently I do not have a problem with it (well, there was a contradiction in the Ultimates, so maybe) but back then they were never compared with each other.
That said, this is not my main concern. My main concern is that we are going to backwards-scale a retconned character to forever be more powerful than all other Marvel characters, no matter if they are introduced decades afterwards, or established with far higher power levels than previously within years from now.
That is all. Is it really so horrible to continue to scale the Beyonder from Oblivion instead?
As for the first Doctor Strange appearance, those were the scans that I found when searching for their confrontation.
@Matthew
The Tribunal, Chaos, and Order were here stated outright to be a part of Eternity's inner workings, and the writer Al Ewing considered the Tribunal to be lower on the totem pole: https://news.marvel.com/comics/416/the_top_five_most_powerful_cosmic_beings/
The problem is that the Living Tribunal was never stated to be superior to Oblivion back in those days, or even compared with the entity in any way. He was stated outright to just be one of several of the most powerful entities within the multiverse, and I have now shown several scans for that the definitions of his nature and power level have changed over the years, as you wanted. As such, the burden of proof is on you and others to find some evidence for that the 1985 Tribunal scaled from Oblivion. Mind you, currently I do not have a problem with it (well, there was a contradiction in the Ultimates, so maybe) but back then they were never compared with each other.
That said, this is not my main concern. My main concern is that we are going to backwards-scale a retconned character to forever be more powerful than all other Marvel characters, no matter if they are introduced decades afterwards, or established with far higher power levels than previously within years from now.
That is all. Is it really so horrible to continue to scale the Beyonder from Oblivion instead?
As for the first Doctor Strange appearance, those were the scans that I found when searching for their confrontation.
@Matthew
The Tribunal, Chaos, and Order were here stated outright to be a part of Eternity's inner workings, and the writer Al Ewing considered the Tribunal to be lower on the totem pole: https://news.marvel.com/comics/416/the_top_five_most_powerful_cosmic_beings/
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@Kepekley23
Here is one of my previous summaries of why I consider the Tribunal inconsistent:
Here is one of my previous summaries of why I consider the Tribunal inconsistent:
In addition, he was also stated to be the sum of the abstract entities within the multiverse in the late 1980s.Antvasima said:
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"The problem is that the Living Tribunal was never stated to be superior to Oblivion back in those days"
Secret Wars not outright saying TLT is stronger than Oblivion doesn't matter if later, connected stories state that he is with no indication of this TLT suddenly being much stronger since Secret Wars. Nor anything within Secret Wars that would directly contradict this. Comics do not exist in a vacuum. And like Matt said TLT was always the strongest Abstract.
" I have now shown several scans for that the definitions of his nature and power level have changed over the years, as you wanted."
Also like Matt said, those earlier scans you showed were not contradictions, and just you wanting all of them to have the exact same wording.
You claim there is a TLT > Oblivion is a retcon. You claim that TLT > Oblivion is an inconsistency. You cannot honestly expect to be able to claim something as a retcon or an inconsistency without proof.
I don't want other, unrelated retcons or contradictions. Yes I know TLT has been retconned and had contradictions throughout different times. But I want proof that TLT > Oblivion in particular was a retcon since Secret Wars. Show me something in Secret Wars or that era that'd directly contradict him being stronger than Oblivion. Not the mere fact Secret Wars didn't say it. Not other, unrelated retcons.
Something from Secret Wars or that era, which directly contradicts him being above Oblivion.
^ You can forget anything else and just give me this. The claim is TLT > Oblivion is inconsistent with Secret Wars. So prove this.
And Beyonder is only getting scaled to TLT and Oblivion who were things at that time. There is no need to worry about other complete hypotheticals.
Secret Wars not outright saying TLT is stronger than Oblivion doesn't matter if later, connected stories state that he is with no indication of this TLT suddenly being much stronger since Secret Wars. Nor anything within Secret Wars that would directly contradict this. Comics do not exist in a vacuum. And like Matt said TLT was always the strongest Abstract.
" I have now shown several scans for that the definitions of his nature and power level have changed over the years, as you wanted."
Also like Matt said, those earlier scans you showed were not contradictions, and just you wanting all of them to have the exact same wording.
You claim there is a TLT > Oblivion is a retcon. You claim that TLT > Oblivion is an inconsistency. You cannot honestly expect to be able to claim something as a retcon or an inconsistency without proof.
I don't want other, unrelated retcons or contradictions. Yes I know TLT has been retconned and had contradictions throughout different times. But I want proof that TLT > Oblivion in particular was a retcon since Secret Wars. Show me something in Secret Wars or that era that'd directly contradict him being stronger than Oblivion. Not the mere fact Secret Wars didn't say it. Not other, unrelated retcons.
Something from Secret Wars or that era, which directly contradicts him being above Oblivion.
^ You can forget anything else and just give me this. The claim is TLT > Oblivion is inconsistent with Secret Wars. So prove this.
And Beyonder is only getting scaled to TLT and Oblivion who were things at that time. There is no need to worry about other complete hypotheticals.
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Antvasima said:And here are all of the contradictory scans that I have posted so far:
1. Dr. Strange breaks some utterly restrained bonds from TLT. To which it is later established that TLT is vastly superior to Strange and could kill him with absolutely no effort. TLT was shocked that Strange, a mortal, could even do that. No contradiction. Also even then no matter what level you want to put TLT Strange ever being on his level would be such blatant PIS it wouldn't be worth mentioning for anything.
2. TLT is one of the strongest residents of the multiverse. Doesn't disprove him being stronger than Oblivion. You already accept residents of the multiverse like Molecule Man likely being stronger than Oblivion. Also this is like downgrading Goku to being Planet level since he's one of the strongest people on Earth. TLT being a resident of the multiverse doesn't limit his power to multiversal scale.
3. TLT is stated to be the greatest power conceivable and to be a judge of universes who is a servant of someone higher (TOAA). Not sure how that contradicts him being above Oblivion either. If anything you could extrapolate that to being in support of it.
4. Talking about the nature of TLT's trinity and the beings that come from it. Again not sure how this contradicts anything.
5. Yeah he's defeated by the Beyonders because they are above him. Again how does this contradict anything? Someone being stronger than TLT doesn't mean he can't be stronger than Oblivion.
6. I'm not sure about this story and only have you and Matt's word to go on. However how does this later retcon of Multi-Eternity actually being stronger than TLT mean that before this retcon TLT wasn't that strong?
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Just checking in here, but what are the things that say TLT > Oblivion directly? Because I remember the guidebooks doing so, but said guidebooks also clarified that Oblivion is bound by multiversal time, and we disregarded that. Is there something else?
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Look, you know that I like and appreciate you on a personal level, but I think that you are making unreasonable demands here.
I have proven that the definitions of the Living Tribunal's nature have changed over the years, and that he was explicitly only one of several powerful entities within the multiverse back in the mid-1980s. That is all that is possible to do when he had never been compared with Oblivion back in those days. I don't see how the burden of proof is on me rather than you in this case.
As for Oblivion currently being established as being able to survive and thrive when the Living Tribunal, and his current superior Multi-Eternity, could not, please see here:
I have proven that the definitions of the Living Tribunal's nature have changed over the years, and that he was explicitly only one of several powerful entities within the multiverse back in the mid-1980s. That is all that is possible to do when he had never been compared with Oblivion back in those days. I don't see how the burden of proof is on me rather than you in this case.
As for Oblivion currently being established as being able to survive and thrive when the Living Tribunal, and his current superior Multi-Eternity, could not, please see here:
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I did not know this existed, and honestly have to say it's...pretty direct, being one of the few instances to specify Oblivion the entity and not Oblivion the idea.Antvasima said:As for Oblivion currently being established as being able to survive and thrive when the Living Tribunal, and his current superior Multi-Eternity, could not, please see here:
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"That statement is an inconsistency and a retcon"
"Prove that it's an inconsistency and a retcon"
^ This is me making an unreasonable demand? You literally just want to call statements inconsistencies and retcons yet not be asked to specify what makes them inconsistent or how it's a retcon?
All I want is some sort of actual proof that TLT > Oblivion is inconsistent with Secret Wars. Where in Secret Wars was this idea contradicted?
I went over all your scans and showed why they do not contradict Secret Wars TLT being above Oblivion.
Your final scan seems to be for the first time of something that actually contradicts TLT > Oblivion. Finally. I'd like Matt to give his thoughts on it too. But I'm fine with TLT not being listed as stronger than Oblivion in that case. Or at least after Matt comes out with his TLT respect thread to see.
"Prove that it's an inconsistency and a retcon"
^ This is me making an unreasonable demand? You literally just want to call statements inconsistencies and retcons yet not be asked to specify what makes them inconsistent or how it's a retcon?
All I want is some sort of actual proof that TLT > Oblivion is inconsistent with Secret Wars. Where in Secret Wars was this idea contradicted?
I went over all your scans and showed why they do not contradict Secret Wars TLT being above Oblivion.
Your final scan seems to be for the first time of something that actually contradicts TLT > Oblivion. Finally. I'd like Matt to give his thoughts on it too. But I'm fine with TLT not being listed as stronger than Oblivion in that case. Or at least after Matt comes out with his TLT respect thread to see.
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@Azathoth "I did not know this existed"
Ikr, you don't find scans like these nowadays.
Ikr, you don't find scans like these nowadays.
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1) The point is that the Living Tribunal when first introduced behaved like a powerful magician, channeling mystical entities and making spells that Strange could break. It is an inconsistency.
2) The main point is that he was here simply considered to be one of several powerful entities, not the top dog. It is an inconsistency, and shows no proof of him being above Oblivion.
3) A judge of multiverses, not universes as previously. It is another inconsistency, but was established in the early 1990s, so it is not part of my point that the 1985 Tribunal and Oblivion were never compared with each other.
4) It is another take on the Tribunal that defines him as the sum of several abstract entities, not as a judge of universes as previously, or as a judge of multiverses as he was briefly defined. It is another inconsistency.
5) That was not my intended point. My point is that the Tribunal is here supposed to be the embodiment of the multiverse, which is yet another inconsistency.
6) That was never my intended point. My point has always been that the Tribunal has changed with time depending on the definitions of different writers. As such we cannot assume that standards that applied later automatically applied earlier.
2) The main point is that he was here simply considered to be one of several powerful entities, not the top dog. It is an inconsistency, and shows no proof of him being above Oblivion.
3) A judge of multiverses, not universes as previously. It is another inconsistency, but was established in the early 1990s, so it is not part of my point that the 1985 Tribunal and Oblivion were never compared with each other.
4) It is another take on the Tribunal that defines him as the sum of several abstract entities, not as a judge of universes as previously, or as a judge of multiverses as he was briefly defined. It is another inconsistency.
5) That was not my intended point. My point is that the Tribunal is here supposed to be the embodiment of the multiverse, which is yet another inconsistency.
6) That was never my intended point. My point has always been that the Tribunal has changed with time depending on the definitions of different writers. As such we cannot assume that standards that applied later automatically applied earlier.
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Please stop arguing that Multi-Eternity is above the Tribunal. That is not the case even in the storyline, evidently so. It's ridiculous. No matter how many times you say it, it won't be true.
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As I explained in my previous post, my perspective on this is that the definitions of the Living Tribunal has changed greatly over the years, several times after each other, and that as such we cannot assume that standards that were established decades later automatically apply.Ryukama said:
As such, I think that the burden of proof is on whoever claim that the 1985 Tribunal was stronger than Oblivion, as to my knowledge they were never compared with each other. That is all.
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1. How many times are you going to keep going on about "Dr. Strange can break his spells" while ignoring the full context of TLT in that same comic being explicitly vastly superior to Strange and able to effortlessly destroy him if he actually wanted to? Heck even in that scan you circle stuff in it shows TLT, with "the merest of gestures" summoning a bond twice as powerful as the one Strange broke. It's clear that Strange can in no way actually oppose TLT.
2. Again, how is TLT not being the strongest in the multiverse contradict him being above Oblivion?
3. Okay
4. Why is TLT being the sum of the abstracts mutually exclusive with his position being the multiverse's judge? And especially how does it contradict him being above Oblivion.
5. Again how is him being the embodiment of the multiverse mutually exclusive with him being the sum of the abstracts (if anything these things would match). And how is it mutually exclusive to his position being the multiverse's judge? And how does it contradict him being above Oblivion?
6. So you can't prove that TLT > Oblivion is actually inconsistent with Secret Wars, so you throw these other inconsistencies and retcons into the mix?
Yes TLT has had inconsistencies and retcons and contradictions throughout the years. No one will deny that. But how is TLT > Oblivion contradicted by Secret Wars? This is the particular manner at hand. Not anything else. All other retcons or inconsistencies or contradictions of TLT are irrelevant. What makes TLT > Oblivion inconsistent with Secret Wars?
You've given one scan that contradicts the overall idea of TLT > Oblivion in the first place. That I could accept after some input from Matt.
2. Again, how is TLT not being the strongest in the multiverse contradict him being above Oblivion?
3. Okay
4. Why is TLT being the sum of the abstracts mutually exclusive with his position being the multiverse's judge? And especially how does it contradict him being above Oblivion.
5. Again how is him being the embodiment of the multiverse mutually exclusive with him being the sum of the abstracts (if anything these things would match). And how is it mutually exclusive to his position being the multiverse's judge? And how does it contradict him being above Oblivion?
6. So you can't prove that TLT > Oblivion is actually inconsistent with Secret Wars, so you throw these other inconsistencies and retcons into the mix?
Yes TLT has had inconsistencies and retcons and contradictions throughout the years. No one will deny that. But how is TLT > Oblivion contradicted by Secret Wars? This is the particular manner at hand. Not anything else. All other retcons or inconsistencies or contradictions of TLT are irrelevant. What makes TLT > Oblivion inconsistent with Secret Wars?
You've given one scan that contradicts the overall idea of TLT > Oblivion in the first place. That I could accept after some input from Matt.
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He was killed by Chaos and Order within this storyline. He was also stated to be a mere part of the inner workings of Multi-Eternity within this storyline. And the writer Al Ewing explicitly stared that he considered the Tribunal to be below Multi-Eternity within this storyline.Matthew Schroeder said:
It is true, as I have shown with a scan and an information link. That does not mean that it was true in other stories, as, again, the definitions regarding the Tribunal have been inconsistent over the years.
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@Ant
1) Chaos and Order were amped by First Firmament, and only did it because the Cosmic Hierarchy was unbalanced. They are not above him.
2) He is a function in that he maintains the workings of the multiverse. He isn't inferior to the multiverse.
3) Al Ewing is wrong and that interview is clickbait. Marvel.com has also said that The Thing is stronger than Sentry.
It is not true, you have not proven it. You are just downplaying. and you are being clueless about the story proper.
1) Chaos and Order were amped by First Firmament, and only did it because the Cosmic Hierarchy was unbalanced. They are not above him.
2) He is a function in that he maintains the workings of the multiverse. He isn't inferior to the multiverse.
3) Al Ewing is wrong and that interview is clickbait. Marvel.com has also said that The Thing is stronger than Sentry.
It is not true, you have not proven it. You are just downplaying. and you are being clueless about the story proper.
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Clearly 1-A seeing as Oblivion isn't on it.
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1) Agreed, but the point is that the Tribunal here behaved like a magician and was impressed that Strange could break his spell in the first place.
2) The point is that we cannot assume that the Tribunal was stronger than Oblivion at this point when he was stated to just be one of several powerful entities, rather than the strongest as he was defined in a much later handbook.
3. I am glad that we are in agreement here.
4. It is part of my points about that the Tribunal has been defined in different ways over the years, and being bound to the entities of a single multiverse certainly seems to contradict transcending all multiverses.
5) It isn't inconsistent with that part, but it is certainly inconsistent with being the judge of all multiverses, or just being an inner working function within a single multiverse.
6) It is impossible to find a direct statement with a comparison between the two characters when nothing exists of the sort. The point is that this means that nothing was established regarding their respective hierarchy of power at the time, except maybe in the mind of J.M. DeMatteis.
7) You seem to misunderstand my viewpoint. I do not think that we can draw any conclusions either for or against the LT being stronger than Oblivion at the time, because no such mentions/comparisons existed as far as I am aware.
8) Okay. I am glad to hear it.
2) The point is that we cannot assume that the Tribunal was stronger than Oblivion at this point when he was stated to just be one of several powerful entities, rather than the strongest as he was defined in a much later handbook.
3. I am glad that we are in agreement here.
4. It is part of my points about that the Tribunal has been defined in different ways over the years, and being bound to the entities of a single multiverse certainly seems to contradict transcending all multiverses.
5) It isn't inconsistent with that part, but it is certainly inconsistent with being the judge of all multiverses, or just being an inner working function within a single multiverse.
6) It is impossible to find a direct statement with a comparison between the two characters when nothing exists of the sort. The point is that this means that nothing was established regarding their respective hierarchy of power at the time, except maybe in the mind of J.M. DeMatteis.
7) You seem to misunderstand my viewpoint. I do not think that we can draw any conclusions either for or against the LT being stronger than Oblivion at the time, because no such mentions/comparisons existed as far as I am aware.
8) Okay. I am glad to hear it.
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You keep suggesting that TLT > Oblivion is either a retcon or an inconsistency with Secret Wars. For that you need proof. A statement cannot be called inconsistent or something be called a retcon without first proving how it's inconsistent or how it's a retcon.
Yes again, you can find other retcons or inconsistencies. However unless they directly relate to the idea of TLT > Oblivion, they are irrelevant.
"This statement is a contradiction" "How's it contradicted?" "Because other contradictions exists"
We are talking about this one statement. Not any other contradiction. So far you have only one scan that actually seems to prove that TLT > Oblivion is contradicted, but I'd like Matt's thoughts on that too.
Yes again, you can find other retcons or inconsistencies. However unless they directly relate to the idea of TLT > Oblivion, they are irrelevant.
"This statement is a contradiction" "How's it contradicted?" "Because other contradictions exists"
We are talking about this one statement. Not any other contradiction. So far you have only one scan that actually seems to prove that TLT > Oblivion is contradicted, but I'd like Matt's thoughts on that too.
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@Matthew:
1) I can accept them possibly being amplified by the First Firmament, but given that they were also beaten by Galactus, it seems unlikely, and the Firmament should not be astronomically stronger than Multi-Eternity, so if the Tribunal was as strong as previously, it should not matter.
2) He was restored to life by Multi-Eternity after the First Firmament was defeated. That should not be possible if he was stronger. And nevertheless, previously he was not a function of the multiverse, as I have shown in other scans.
3) I agree that the list itself is unreliable, but it shows how the writer perceived the main players within his storyline.
4) "Clueless", "downplaying". I am getting tired of your repeated rude and disrespectful accusations. They are very unwarranted and inappropriate. I have been exhausted throughout much of this exchange, and have still tried to remain polite.
1) I can accept them possibly being amplified by the First Firmament, but given that they were also beaten by Galactus, it seems unlikely, and the Firmament should not be astronomically stronger than Multi-Eternity, so if the Tribunal was as strong as previously, it should not matter.
2) He was restored to life by Multi-Eternity after the First Firmament was defeated. That should not be possible if he was stronger. And nevertheless, previously he was not a function of the multiverse, as I have shown in other scans.
3) I agree that the list itself is unreliable, but it shows how the writer perceived the main players within his storyline.
4) "Clueless", "downplaying". I am getting tired of your repeated rude and disrespectful accusations. They are very unwarranted and inappropriate. I have been exhausted throughout much of this exchange, and have still tried to remain polite.
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@Ryukama
Well, my fundamental perception of Marvel continuity is that until something has been established, we cannot draw any conclusions about it, either for or against, and that even if something is established, it may be contradicted at a later date by other writers. That is all.
Well, my fundamental perception of Marvel continuity is that until something has been established, we cannot draw any conclusions about it, either for or against, and that even if something is established, it may be contradicted at a later date by other writers. That is all.
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Your argument still relies on the principal of claiming a statement to be an inconsistency or a retcon without any evidence.
So TLT > Oblivion is an inconsistency and a retcon from Secret Wars? What makes it inconsistent with Secret Wars? How is it a retcon?
Either prove how it's contradicted, or you don't get to claim it's a contradiction. If you can't actually find anything that contradicts something, then it isn't a contradiction.
I'm just dropping this since you finally gave something that might prove against TLT > Oblivion, I'm waiting for Matt's TLT respect thread and I got to go to bed soon. But still, one should not be able to claim anything an inconsistency or a retcon without proof.
So TLT > Oblivion is an inconsistency and a retcon from Secret Wars? What makes it inconsistent with Secret Wars? How is it a retcon?
Either prove how it's contradicted, or you don't get to claim it's a contradiction. If you can't actually find anything that contradicts something, then it isn't a contradiction.
I'm just dropping this since you finally gave something that might prove against TLT > Oblivion, I'm waiting for Matt's TLT respect thread and I got to go to bed soon. But still, one should not be able to claim anything an inconsistency or a retcon without proof.
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I'm also dropping this thread since it became a huge mess.
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To be more specific, my argument relies on that there is no evidence of the Tribunal being either stronger or weaker than Oblivion during the Secret Wars, and that there have been lots of different definitions of the character over the years, some of which contradict each other.
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Comics don't exist in a vacuum. The Living Tribunal that was stated to be stronger than Oblivion is the same one that was in Secret Wars. Yes TLT has had retcons or contradictions over time. But prove that TLT > Oblivion is one of those retcons or contradictions. If you can't, then you don't get to claim it as one.
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