-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pre-Retcon Molecule Man AP Justification Change
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
- Status
- 5,674
- 7,190
Is this what you are looking for? https://goo.gl/images/fya17Q
- 8,427
- 3,142
- Thread starter
- #50
I really just want this to be over myself, to be honest.Quantu said:
Thanks again for all your help with ironing out this thread Quantu, it's been a big help.
- 8,427
- 3,142
- Thread starter
- #51
@Ryukama
Well my entire point of this thread is to change Molecule Man's AP justification, as he isn't really comparable to The Beyonder, and that he should have a proper justification for being greater than the abstracts and the Marvel Multiverse.
Here is my scans for the justification for his tier, if you want to know more like why Molecule Man and The Beyonder aren't comparable, look at the huge post at the beginning of the thread:
(He was unanimously chosen by The Watchers as the one with the greatest chance at stopping the Beyonder. All the abstracts move away from him in fear when Molecule Man confronts The Beyonder. Every creature on every planet in every dimension felt the multiversal tremors from the confrontation between Molecule Man and The Beyonder. And in Secret Wars II, the Multiverse was described as having infinite dimensions.)
Well my entire point of this thread is to change Molecule Man's AP justification, as he isn't really comparable to The Beyonder, and that he should have a proper justification for being greater than the abstracts and the Marvel Multiverse.
Here is my scans for the justification for his tier, if you want to know more like why Molecule Man and The Beyonder aren't comparable, look at the huge post at the beginning of the thread:
(He was unanimously chosen by The Watchers as the one with the greatest chance at stopping the Beyonder. All the abstracts move away from him in fear when Molecule Man confronts The Beyonder. Every creature on every planet in every dimension felt the multiversal tremors from the confrontation between Molecule Man and The Beyonder. And in Secret Wars II, the Multiverse was described as having infinite dimensions.)
- 11,486
- 7,694
@Warren I want a source to Seed's statement cause it can help with profiles.
But your reasonings seem fine.
Molecule Man is WAY weaker than Beyonder, but he can very briefly hold him off for a moment, and was considered second to Beyonder. So I'm fine with his ratings, just some changes in reasoning.
But your reasonings seem fine.
Molecule Man is WAY weaker than Beyonder, but he can very briefly hold him off for a moment, and was considered second to Beyonder. So I'm fine with his ratings, just some changes in reasoning.
- 8,427
- 3,142
- Thread starter
- #53
Yes, I agree.Ryukama said:
Although I don't believe it was every outright stated that Molecule Man was stronger than all the Abstracts, more that it is heavily implied.
But what the hell do I know? I never picked up these comics, I just found some scans online.
- 166,007
- 73,753
Just a nitpick: As I mentioned to Ryukama earlier, I am much more comfortable with scaling the Beyonder from Oblivion than the Living Tribunal, as the former would not require backwards-scaling from post-retcon to pre-retcon.
As for the Molecule Man, I think that the claim that the Beyonder transcended him like Owen transcended Captain America seems extremely contradictory and unreliable, as MM managed to briefly hold the Beyonder off. We can write that the Beyonder was far more powerful, but not that the Molecule Man had less than zero substance compared to him.
As for the Molecule Man, I think that the claim that the Beyonder transcended him like Owen transcended Captain America seems extremely contradictory and unreliable, as MM managed to briefly hold the Beyonder off. We can write that the Beyonder was far more powerful, but not that the Molecule Man had less than zero substance compared to him.
- 11,486
- 7,694
And as I mentioned, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that The Living Tribunal's powers got retconned along with Beyonder's and Molecule Man's. Can we make keys for all the Avengers with "Pre Secret Wars" and "Post Secret Wars" then? There is no more proof TLT got retconned than any of those guys. Or anyone really.
- 166,007
- 73,753
I am extremely busy with other tasks, and cannot spend hours arguing about this again without severely overexerting myself, but the problem is that lots of characters, including the Living Tribunal, received their highest feats and definitions long after the Secret Wars, whereas Oblivion did not. The LT was just a judge of universes back then, not the possible superior to Oblivion that he was later established as.
Marvel is in a constant state of retcon upon retcon from writer to writer. We cannot scale one long lost retcon to another. It would be to apply the standards of the cosmic cube Beyonder reality, or the inhuman Beyonder reality, or the child of the Beyonders reality, to the original Beyonder reality. We might as well take the "mightiest being" statement about the Beyonder and apply it to that he was stronger than The-One-Above-All, despite that the latter character was not even clearly established or named back then.
Marvel is in a constant state of retcon upon retcon from writer to writer. We cannot scale one long lost retcon to another. It would be to apply the standards of the cosmic cube Beyonder reality, or the inhuman Beyonder reality, or the child of the Beyonders reality, to the original Beyonder reality. We might as well take the "mightiest being" statement about the Beyonder and apply it to that he was stronger than The-One-Above-All, despite that the latter character was not even clearly established or named back then.
- 11,486
- 7,694
Again, The Living Tribunal did not get a retcon. Beyonder and Molecule Man did. When his feats happen doesn't matter when he didn't become any stronger since them. The Living Tribunal from those later issues is the same Living Trinunal from here.
You will never answer me when I ask this. Can I make keys for all the Avengers with Pre and Post Secret Wars keys? Why not? Why can we arbitrarily assume TLT's power got vastly different from a retcon that had nothing to do with his power based upon literally no evidence yet can't for other characters?
Also Beyonder obviously isn't mightier than TOAA virtue of TOAA literally being his author. Making Beyonder stronger than a Tier 0 is not at all the same as scaling him to TLT. You know that.
It's simple. Beyonder before the retcon was stronger than TLT. After the retcon that wasn't the case. TLT's power, especially his power compared to Oblivion's, didn't change at all from this.
You will never answer me when I ask this. Can I make keys for all the Avengers with Pre and Post Secret Wars keys? Why not? Why can we arbitrarily assume TLT's power got vastly different from a retcon that had nothing to do with his power based upon literally no evidence yet can't for other characters?
Also Beyonder obviously isn't mightier than TOAA virtue of TOAA literally being his author. Making Beyonder stronger than a Tier 0 is not at all the same as scaling him to TLT. You know that.
It's simple. Beyonder before the retcon was stronger than TLT. After the retcon that wasn't the case. TLT's power, especially his power compared to Oblivion's, didn't change at all from this.
- 166,007
- 73,753
The Living Tribunal has been established as anything from just a random mystical entity when first introduced, to a judge of universes and maintainer of balance between good and evil at a later point, to the sum totality of all abstract entities within the multiverse at a later point, to a judge of all multiverses at a later point, to the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse at a later point, to a mere function of and inferior to Multi-Eternity at a later point. He has gone through lots of retcons.
And this goes for the other Marvel characters as well. The Hulk used to be straining to his limit from just supporting a small portion of a large mountain back during the Secret Wars, but his later incarnations were still able to easily completely destroy planets.
The Sentry and the Blue Marvel were not created until the 2000s, but were still established to have "always" been around.
What happened to the Beyonder is by no means unique. Revised histories and power levels have likely happened hundreds of times within Marvel Comics. What makes him different is that we still keep a profile for his pre-retcon statistics, whereas if we followed the pattern of all other Marvel characters within this wiki, we would simply try to establish his more recently established power level, which would either be as a cosmic cube or Beyonders child unit, as they are possibly synonymous. This is why it is a much more sensitive matter to backwards scale between decades of different states in the continuity for this character.
And this goes for the other Marvel characters as well. The Hulk used to be straining to his limit from just supporting a small portion of a large mountain back during the Secret Wars, but his later incarnations were still able to easily completely destroy planets.
The Sentry and the Blue Marvel were not created until the 2000s, but were still established to have "always" been around.
What happened to the Beyonder is by no means unique. Revised histories and power levels have likely happened hundreds of times within Marvel Comics. What makes him different is that we still keep a profile for his pre-retcon statistics, whereas if we followed the pattern of all other Marvel characters within this wiki, we would simply try to establish his more recently established power level, which would either be as a cosmic cube or Beyonders child unit, as they are possibly synonymous. This is why it is a much more sensitive matter to backwards scale between decades of different states in the continuity for this character.
- 11,486
- 7,694
You're still literally assuming retcons that didn't happen occurred. Or that all comics exist in some vacuum. If a character does not perform a feat one particular issue than they are not that strong. Even if they're the same canon character with said feats being canon.
There is no reason to just assume someone got retconned at a certain time when there's no evidence for such. Yes TLT has had retcons and inconsistencies in the past. However the LT didn't suddenly become vastly superior than before or turn stronger than Oblivion since the Secret Wars. It was the same version of the character. Molecule Man and Beyonder got retconned.
There is no reason to just assume someone got retconned at a certain time when there's no evidence for such. Yes TLT has had retcons and inconsistencies in the past. However the LT didn't suddenly become vastly superior than before or turn stronger than Oblivion since the Secret Wars. It was the same version of the character. Molecule Man and Beyonder got retconned.
- 11,486
- 7,694
"a random mystical entity when first introduced"
Also this is totally untrue. Even in his first appearance he was referred to as "one who rules dimensions", "judgement incarnate", "judge of the infinite cosmos", etc. and was sentencing someone and their whole planet to be pronounced the incantation of oblivion due to his decree.
He wasn't just a random mystical entity. He clearly had major cosmic importance, even if you want to argue not as much as he was said to later on.
Also this is totally untrue. Even in his first appearance he was referred to as "one who rules dimensions", "judgement incarnate", "judge of the infinite cosmos", etc. and was sentencing someone and their whole planet to be pronounced the incantation of oblivion due to his decree.
He wasn't just a random mystical entity. He clearly had major cosmic importance, even if you want to argue not as much as he was said to later on.
- 166,007
- 73,753
Good of you to remind me about the Tribunal, but my point still stands.
All that I am saying is that we gave a special allowance to the pre-retcon Beyonder page to be just that, pre-retco, not post-lots of retcons like almost all of our other Marvel pages. It is era specific per definition.
Our other option, if we wish to maintain the same convenience that we use with our other profiles, would be to delete it, and strictly keep the post-retcon Beyonder page with his latest established power levels, which could be anywhere from Low 2-C to High 1-B depending on the interpretation.
Basically, I am perfectly fine with rating pre-retcon Beyonder as likely 1-A, as Oblivion had already been established at the time, but if Marvel establishes a new character that is High 1-A tomorrow, or retcons another into "always" having had such stature, we cannot assume that Jim Shooter could see into the future back in 1985, and backwards scale the Beyonder to the same rating due to supposedly being "the mightiest" character. It is a dangerous path to thread for us, as we leave all common sense behind us.
All that I am saying is that we gave a special allowance to the pre-retcon Beyonder page to be just that, pre-retco, not post-lots of retcons like almost all of our other Marvel pages. It is era specific per definition.
Our other option, if we wish to maintain the same convenience that we use with our other profiles, would be to delete it, and strictly keep the post-retcon Beyonder page with his latest established power levels, which could be anywhere from Low 2-C to High 1-B depending on the interpretation.
Basically, I am perfectly fine with rating pre-retcon Beyonder as likely 1-A, as Oblivion had already been established at the time, but if Marvel establishes a new character that is High 1-A tomorrow, or retcons another into "always" having had such stature, we cannot assume that Jim Shooter could see into the future back in 1985, and backwards scale the Beyonder to the same rating due to supposedly being "the mightiest" character. It is a dangerous path to thread for us, as we leave all common sense behind us.
- 11,486
- 7,694
Why did you even think TLT was ever just a random mystical entity? Especially with as much knowledge as you have on the character?
This isn't about some new High 1-A character being introduced. It's about Beyonder directly being stronger than TLT. And TLT at the time being no stronger or weaker in the Secret Wars than in those later incarnations. Yes the more impressive feats don't appear until later, but this was the same Living Tribunal, he had the same powers, he never got retconned, he wasn't explicitly weaker back than rather he is now. You're basically saying that if a character is rated a certain level due to a feat, someone cannot powerscale to them simply because they fought before the feat was performed. Even if that character didn't change in power since then.
Also since when did authorial intent or how powerful a writer thought he was going to make his character matter? If later stories give implications of past stories before we don't ignore them just because the writer didn't foresee or intend these later implications. Or, at least if both stories reside within the same continutiy/are connected with one another.
This isn't about some new High 1-A character being introduced. It's about Beyonder directly being stronger than TLT. And TLT at the time being no stronger or weaker in the Secret Wars than in those later incarnations. Yes the more impressive feats don't appear until later, but this was the same Living Tribunal, he had the same powers, he never got retconned, he wasn't explicitly weaker back than rather he is now. You're basically saying that if a character is rated a certain level due to a feat, someone cannot powerscale to them simply because they fought before the feat was performed. Even if that character didn't change in power since then.
Also since when did authorial intent or how powerful a writer thought he was going to make his character matter? If later stories give implications of past stories before we don't ignore them just because the writer didn't foresee or intend these later implications. Or, at least if both stories reside within the same continutiy/are connected with one another.
- 166,007
- 73,753
Well, I do not have perfect memory, and have only read a small part of the oldest Doctor Strange stories. I just vaguely recalled that the Doctor initially fought the Tribunal, and that the crimson bands of Cyttorak were used by the entity, which did not seem very impressive.
Again, pre-retcon means era specific, not adhering to the standards established much later, as that would require us to delete the pre-retcon Beyonder profile and strictly use his latest post-retcon statistics.
The Living Tribunal had not either been established to be alternately a judge of all multiverses, the sum totality of all abstract entities within the Marvel multiverse, possibly beyond space and time, possibly superior to Oblivion, the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse, or a mere function of Multi-Eternity back then.
My apologies, but I will continue to strongly disagree with this no matter for how long that we maintain this discussion. We cannot mix scaling from different continuities, as it makes no coherent logical sense.
In addition, it makes absolutely no difference for the Beyonder's statistics if we scale from Oblivion or the Living Tribunal.
Again, pre-retcon means era specific, not adhering to the standards established much later, as that would require us to delete the pre-retcon Beyonder profile and strictly use his latest post-retcon statistics.
The Living Tribunal had not either been established to be alternately a judge of all multiverses, the sum totality of all abstract entities within the Marvel multiverse, possibly beyond space and time, possibly superior to Oblivion, the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse, or a mere function of Multi-Eternity back then.
My apologies, but I will continue to strongly disagree with this no matter for how long that we maintain this discussion. We cannot mix scaling from different continuities, as it makes no coherent logical sense.
In addition, it makes absolutely no difference for the Beyonder's statistics if we scale from Oblivion or the Living Tribunal.
- 11,486
- 7,694
And again, not everyone got retconned in Secret Wars. Why do we arbitrarily assume someone to have gotten vastly stronger or weaker since then?
Show me one thing of evidence explicitly showing that TLT was weaker in Secret Wars. Not the mere fact that the statement came afterwards. Not an outright false claim like yours with Dr. Strange.
Give me some evidence that back in Secret Wars, The Living Tribunal was explicitly weaker back then. Give me evidence suggesting that The Living Tribunal was weaker than Oblivion back then. That's all I want. Evidence to back up the claim.
Where in Secret Wars or "that era" is it shown that The Living Tribunal was weaker than he was later on? You have some anti-feats or some statements contradicting these later ones?
^ All I want is some evidence. Then I'll shut up about this forever.
Show me one thing of evidence explicitly showing that TLT was weaker in Secret Wars. Not the mere fact that the statement came afterwards. Not an outright false claim like yours with Dr. Strange.
Give me some evidence that back in Secret Wars, The Living Tribunal was explicitly weaker back then. Give me evidence suggesting that The Living Tribunal was weaker than Oblivion back then. That's all I want. Evidence to back up the claim.
Where in Secret Wars or "that era" is it shown that The Living Tribunal was weaker than he was later on? You have some anti-feats or some statements contradicting these later ones?
^ All I want is some evidence. Then I'll shut up about this forever.
- 166,007
- 73,753
The point of my argument is that Marvel continuity is in a constant state of flux of retcon upon retcon upon retcon for its character histories, power levels, and overall cosmology.
The Living Tribunal received his multiple extremely contradictory, and sometimes unreliable, statements at much later points in his career, as did lots of other characters.
As such, it is not up to me to prove that the Living Tribunal was less powerful back then, it is up to you to prove that he was just as powerful as whichever of the contradictory later retcons that you wish to stick with.
That said, his handbook entry at the time simply described him as being able to detonate stars with a single force bolt, and, unless I misremember, when first introduced he used Cyttorak as a power source, who is not exactly in the same league nowadays.
The Living Tribunal received his multiple extremely contradictory, and sometimes unreliable, statements at much later points in his career, as did lots of other characters.
As such, it is not up to me to prove that the Living Tribunal was less powerful back then, it is up to you to prove that he was just as powerful as whichever of the contradictory later retcons that you wish to stick with.
That said, his handbook entry at the time simply described him as being able to detonate stars with a single force bolt, and, unless I misremember, when first introduced he used Cyttorak as a power source, who is not exactly in the same league nowadays.
- 11,486
- 7,694
Yes TLT has had retcons and inconsistencies. However what evidence do you have that him becoming stronger than Oblivion or his later expanded upon position within the heirarchy? If you want to claim something is a contraction, then yes you have to prove it's a contradiction.
How did TLT being stronger than Oblivion in later stories contradict how powerful he was in Secret Wars? Yes retcons and inconsistencies exist. That does not mean you can suddenly call something a retcon and inconsistency without demonstrating how they are.
Even in his first appearance Dr. Strange views his power as "limitless" and says he can sway the course of galaxies. By the time TLT met Beyonder he was at least High 1-B. Star level is a ridiculous lowball for him.
Also we aren't talking about how powerful he was in his first appearance. We're talking about how powerful he was in Secret Wars. Did Secret Wars or that general era ever contracict those later statements?
How did TLT being stronger than Oblivion in later stories contradict how powerful he was in Secret Wars? Yes retcons and inconsistencies exist. That does not mean you can suddenly call something a retcon and inconsistency without demonstrating how they are.
Even in his first appearance Dr. Strange views his power as "limitless" and says he can sway the course of galaxies. By the time TLT met Beyonder he was at least High 1-B. Star level is a ridiculous lowball for him.
Also we aren't talking about how powerful he was in his first appearance. We're talking about how powerful he was in Secret Wars. Did Secret Wars or that general era ever contracict those later statements?
- 166,007
- 73,753
Take note that the Tribunal was simply stated to be one of the most powerful entities withi the multiverse in his 1985 handbook entry, not the strongest, and the emphasis on simply maintaining balance within the universes.
- 11,486
- 7,694
Okay so TLT becoming stronger than Oblivion is a retcon, inconsistency and contradiction from Secret Wars.
How is it a retcon?
How is it inconsistent?
How is it a contradiction?
What things from Secret Wars or that era go against the idea of TLT being stronger than Oblivion? Surely one can't expect this site to reject a statement for being inconsistent if they can't prove how it's inconsistent. Or to call something a retcon without further specification.
How is it a retcon?
How is it inconsistent?
How is it a contradiction?
What things from Secret Wars or that era go against the idea of TLT being stronger than Oblivion? Surely one can't expect this site to reject a statement for being inconsistent if they can't prove how it's inconsistent. Or to call something a retcon without further specification.
- 166,007
- 73,753
Well, you can read his handbook entry and his fight with Doctor Strange yourself above.
The LT was not compared with Oblivion in any stories that I know of. He was claimed to be stronger in a 2000s handbook entry, unless I misremember.
We try to find a coherence for what different retcons say about the power levels of most Marvel characters, but the point is that we cannot apply those standards to a profile that is specifically referring to the state of a character before all of those retcons occurred.
Swaying the course of galaxies is not very impressive, and Doctor Strange broke out of the LT's spell and was supposedly stronger than any other character that the entity had fought at that point, if we are going to take all statements literally.
The Secret Wars era Tribunal was described in the 1985 handbook entry above. It is massively less impressive than his latest handbook entry.
The LT was not compared with Oblivion in any stories that I know of. He was claimed to be stronger in a 2000s handbook entry, unless I misremember.
We try to find a coherence for what different retcons say about the power levels of most Marvel characters, but the point is that we cannot apply those standards to a profile that is specifically referring to the state of a character before all of those retcons occurred.
Swaying the course of galaxies is not very impressive, and Doctor Strange broke out of the LT's spell and was supposedly stronger than any other character that the entity had fought at that point, if we are going to take all statements literally.
The Secret Wars era Tribunal was described in the 1985 handbook entry above. It is massively less impressive than his latest handbook entry.
- 11,486
- 7,694
My point was that Star level is such a disgusting lowball. Even the most pathetic statement in his first ever appearance is vastly stronger than that. And again Dr. Strange was nothing compared to TLT and admitted many times that TLT could effortlessly destroy him if he wished.
One more time. TLT being stronger than Oblivion is an inconsistent statement correct? How is it inconsistent? What in Secret Wars contradicts TLT being stronger than Oblivion. The mere fact that Secret Wars didn't outright say he's stronger than Oblivion isn't a contradiction.
One more time. TLT being stronger than Oblivion is an inconsistent statement correct? How is it inconsistent? What in Secret Wars contradicts TLT being stronger than Oblivion. The mere fact that Secret Wars didn't outright say he's stronger than Oblivion isn't a contradiction.
- 166,007
- 73,753
From a 1985 point of view, it would be wild speculation to assume that an entity who had to channel mystical entities, whose spells Doctor Strange could break out of, was simply supposed to maintain the mystical balance within different universes, and stated outright to just be one of the most powerful entities withi a single multiverse, would be stronger than an entity who completely transcends it.
The 1985 handbook was written by Mark Gruenwald, and much more strictly managed by knowledgeable people in charge of Marvel than the later editions. If you do not wish to accept it, you should also not accept the less reliable 2000s handbook claim that the Tribunal exceeds Oblivion.
The 1985 handbook was written by Mark Gruenwald, and much more strictly managed by knowledgeable people in charge of Marvel than the later editions. If you do not wish to accept it, you should also not accept the less reliable 2000s handbook claim that the Tribunal exceeds Oblivion.
- 11,486
- 7,694
This story with TLT and Dr. Strange was nearly 2 decades before Secret Wars. You're saying that TLT's power actually managed to remain unchanged for 2 decades?
Dr. Strange views TLT's power as limitless, and admits TLT could kill him with absolutely no effort. You can't honestly be using "Dr. Strange can break his spells" as a point. If you have the full context of this event you're referring to you'd know there is nothing Dr. Strange could actually do to oppose TLT.
We already accept that Molecule Man is likely stronger than Oblivion, and somewhat scales to Beyonder. Residents of the multiverse can be more powerful than those who exist beyond the multiverse.
I accept the guidebook. Not any attempt to lowball TLT to Star level based upon it.
Dr. Strange views TLT's power as limitless, and admits TLT could kill him with absolutely no effort. You can't honestly be using "Dr. Strange can break his spells" as a point. If you have the full context of this event you're referring to you'd know there is nothing Dr. Strange could actually do to oppose TLT.
We already accept that Molecule Man is likely stronger than Oblivion, and somewhat scales to Beyonder. Residents of the multiverse can be more powerful than those who exist beyond the multiverse.
I accept the guidebook. Not any attempt to lowball TLT to Star level based upon it.
- 166,007
- 73,753
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You just said that the 1985 Tribunal was established to be stronger than the 1967 (or around this time) version, but that the 2018 version has not had any upgrades since 1985.
Mind you, I agree with you that we can use all of the LT's feats up until 1985 to scale the Beyonder from, but I am pointing out an inconsistency in your argument.
My point is that if we create a page that is explicitly era-specific, for a franchise infamous for its massive amounts of constant retcons, we cannot backwards scale to the state of the continuity before all of those retcons occurred. If we do, we would have to consider all of the retcons to the Beyonder accurate as well, and possibly downgrade him to Low 2-C.
After rereading the handbook page, it also does not say that the Tribunal was limited to detonating stars. It simply says that it could do so, maintains balance within universes, and is one of the most powerful entities within the multiverse. That is it. But he had never been compared to Oblivion at that point.
As for the Molecule Man, wasn't the reason for his Secret Wars era power that his experiment opened a pinhole into the Beyonder's realm, that irradiated him with part of the energy within, and made the Beyonder aware of the Marvel multiverse in the first place, or do I misremember?
Mind you, I agree with you that we can use all of the LT's feats up until 1985 to scale the Beyonder from, but I am pointing out an inconsistency in your argument.
My point is that if we create a page that is explicitly era-specific, for a franchise infamous for its massive amounts of constant retcons, we cannot backwards scale to the state of the continuity before all of those retcons occurred. If we do, we would have to consider all of the retcons to the Beyonder accurate as well, and possibly downgrade him to Low 2-C.
After rereading the handbook page, it also does not say that the Tribunal was limited to detonating stars. It simply says that it could do so, maintains balance within universes, and is one of the most powerful entities within the multiverse. That is it. But he had never been compared to Oblivion at that point.
As for the Molecule Man, wasn't the reason for his Secret Wars era power that his experiment opened a pinhole into the Beyonder's realm, that irradiated him with part of the energy within, and made the Beyonder aware of the Marvel multiverse in the first place, or do I misremember?
- 11,486
- 7,694
No. I'm pointing out your contradiction in using 1965 TLT to rate him from Secret Wars, when your whole point is that comics drastically change throughout time. You change from "Marvel is the most inconsistent thing ever and they change all the time" to using a story from decades ago to judge 1985 TLT.
Molecule Man is still technically a part of the multiverse, and he has superior or comparable powers to those outside of it.
You have used the "guidebook says he destroys stars" thing before when it comes to arguing.
One final time. You can't say a statement is inconsistent without showing how it's inconsistent. You can't call something a retcon without saying how it's a retcon.
How does anything in Secret Wars or that era contradict LT > Oblivion? Them merely not outright saying it isn't a contradiction.
Molecule Man is still technically a part of the multiverse, and he has superior or comparable powers to those outside of it.
You have used the "guidebook says he destroys stars" thing before when it comes to arguing.
One final time. You can't say a statement is inconsistent without showing how it's inconsistent. You can't call something a retcon without saying how it's a retcon.
How does anything in Secret Wars or that era contradict LT > Oblivion? Them merely not outright saying it isn't a contradiction.
- Status
