Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

[DarkDragonMedeus]

People brought up the Parallel Universe from Color Splash, in that example it actually did say the term "Parallel Universe". So that's goes beyond ("Another World" means "Parallel Universe" by default if it doesn't mean another planet). Yes, the Mushroom Kingdom is located in an actual Universe given the existence of the Milky Way Galaxy and the like. So that's really not a good example. And "Another World" in Mario Galaxy is a bit inconsistent; it's unknown if she's actually referring to Super Luigi Galaxy or just the Mushroom Kingdom's purple coins. Especially since she says the same thing in Super Luigi Galaxy. Though I do agree SLG is another timeline; it's the same plot but takes place in a universe where there are two Luigis and Mario seems nonexistent. But I still am not buying the "Another World" being concrete evidence in the context of Painting Worlds.

Also I did actually read over the #146 post where liluzivert said some lengthy points. The "Encompass All Reality" is still actually contradictory to the painting realms being universal in size individually. It means he can keep expanding his dimensions until they eventually reach universal in size. This still implies he needs multiple Power Stars to create a universe as opposed to a pocket reality when the OP is basically trying to propose one Power Star being enough. Also, the "Multiple Lumas" holding off the Universal big bang and dividing them individually doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of says that multiple Lumas could have a Unity based power up where the combined might of X Lumas is actually a lot greater than X times the power. Lumas/Power Stars technically already have a profile and technically could get a Low 2-C key in the form of the entire species working together has some blatant Low 2-C feats. But it's still iffy to divide Low 2-C by a couple hundred and still say "It still would get Low 2-C or at least High 3-A" based on proposals from other threads. And honestly, I still think the "Infinite sand" statement is actually the closest thing on the list to implying universal, but others are still iffy on that.

 

[DragonLord]

People brought up the Parallel Universe from Color Splash, in that example it actually did say the term "Parallel Universe". So that's goes beyond ("Another World" means "Parallel Universe" by default if it doesn't mean another planet). Yes, the Mushroom Kingdom is located in an actual Universe given the existence of the Milky Way Galaxy and the like. So that's really not a good example. And "Another World" in Mario Galaxy is a bit inconsistent; it's unknown if she's actually referring to Super Luigi Galaxy or just the Mushroom Kingdom's purple coins. Especially since she says the same thing in Super Luigi Galaxy. Though I do agree SLG is another timeline; it's the same plot but takes place in a universe where there are two Luigis and Mario seems nonexistent. But I still am not buying the "Another World" being concrete evidence in the context of Painting Worlds.

Also I did actually read over the #146 post where liluzivert said some lengthy points. The "Encompass All Reality" is still actually contradictory to the painting realms being universal in size individually. It means he can keep expanding his dimensions until they eventually reach universal in size. This still implies he needs multiple Power Stars to create a universe as opposed to a pocket reality when the OP is basically trying to propose one Power Star being enough. Also, the "Multiple Lumas" holding off the Universal big bang and dividing them individually doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of says that multiple Lumas could have a Unity based power up where the combined might of X Lumas is actually a lot greater than X times the power. Lumas/Power Stars technically already have a profile and technically could get a Low 2-C key in the form of the entire species working together has some blatant Low 2-C feats. But it's still iffy to divide Low 2-C by a couple hundred and still say "It still would get Low 2-C or at least High 3-A" based on proposals from other threads. And honestly, I still think the "Infinite sand" statement is actually the closest thing on the list to implying universal, but others are still iffy on that.

On the “Infinite Sand” Point, assuming it’s not just flowery language, couldn’t it be like looping, like when your getting to the end of the sand it teleports you to near the top to sink again, thats how the Infamous Infinite Stairs in Mario 64 seem to work

 

[Greenshifter]

"Encompass All Reality" is still actually contradictory to the painting realms being universal in size individually

Not really, they are seperate from the universe so he would have to expand them to the point of reaching the real world and then swallowing it so to speak.

 

[liluzivert]

Also I did actually read over the #146 post where liluzivert said some lengthy points. The "Encompass All Reality" is still actually contradictory to the painting realms being universal in size individually. It means he can keep expanding his dimensions until they eventually reach universal in size. This still implies he needs multiple Power Stars to create a universe as opposed to a pocket reality when the OP is basically trying to propose one Power Star being enough.

No? Bowser is extending his reach to the real world, that's what is meant when they say he will extend the paintings. You agree that they are separate dimensions correct? Then why is this point being made?

Where does it state that Bowser needs multiple stars to encompass all of reality?

Bowser needing stars overtime to at least reach the real world still makes sense and doesn't even remotely contradict the statement that the paintings can encompass reality. I think you've taken this statement out of context.

 

[liluzivert]

Also, the "Multiple Lumas" holding off the Universal big bang and dividing them individually doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of says that multiple Lumas could have a Unity based power up where the combined might of X Lumas is actually a lot greater than X times the power. Lumas/Power Stars technically already have a profile and technically could get a Low 2-C key in the form of the entire species working together has some blatant Low 2-C feats. But it's still iffy to divide Low 2-C by a couple hundred and still say "It still would get Low 2-C or at least High 3-A" based on proposals from other threads. And honestly, I still think the "Infinite sand" statement is actually the closest thing on the list to implying universal, but others are still iffy on that.

This isn't one of the arguments I made, but what? I thought it was well established that dividing Low 2-C gives you Low 2-C anyway? Why are you guys making the argument that they need multiple lumas? Divide it by a million or a couple hundred and you still get the same tier. And the collapse comes from a Grand Star, something that's established to be much more powerful then a Power Star. I really don't see this point at all.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I was always a guy support universal+ Mario and I still is but that feat was a one that I never agree on it be Universal. I don't think the info that we have currectly enough for proving universal size for the painting and "Encompass All Reality" like DDM had said before isn't a supporting evidence as it is mean that Bowser need to make the painting bigger to encompas reality, it may mean multiple other things rather than the dimentions be as big as 'reality'

Although I do agree with Universal+ power star based in the bosses that power by a power star be comprable to those with Grand star in Mario Galaxy and the Luma feat (even if they do it in number it is still Low 2-C feat and them downscale from the Grand Star will make the scaling makes more sense)

When I do not agree with Mario 64 having a universal feat, I do in fact agree with Universal power stars

 

[Starsprite53]

On the “Infinite Sand” Point, assuming it’s not just flowery language, couldn’t it be like looping, like when your getting to the end of the sand it teleports you to near the top to sink again, thats how the Infamous Infinite Stairs in Mario 64 seem to work

it isn't, idk what makes you claiming this when the two things are completely different

 

[DragonLord]

it isn't, idk what makes you claiming this when the two things are completely different

Merely just a suggestion considering there both called Infinite/Endless

 

[DaReaperMan]

High 3-A power stars!

 

[liluzivert]

I was always a guy support universal+ Mario and I still is but that feat was a one that I never agree on it be Universal. I don't think the info that we have currectly enough for proving universal size for the painting and "Encompass All Reality" like DDM had said before isn't a supporting evidence as it is mean that Bowser need to make the painting bigger to encompas reality, it may mean multiple other things rather than the dimentions be as big as 'reality'

No, Medeus has completely missed the entire point.

The painting worlds are already established to be different time spaces, whether you agree it's 4-A or not. Why would Bowser extend the painting worlds themselves if it wouldn't affect anything? That is what he is implying, but they're entirely separate realities. This doesn't imply that the painting worlds are small at all. And we can go back to the OP to prove that this statement was misinterpreted.


- "It is assumed that Bowser, with the power of the Stars at his disposal, intends to extend his reach over the real world."
- "A competing theory suggests that Bowser will simply extend his painting worlds so that they encompass all of reality."

It is stated that Bowser is extending his reach to the real world with the power of the stars. And it is later specified what he is extending. The painting worlds. He is extending the reach of the painting worlds so that they reach Mario's universe. He is not extending the size of them, he's extending their reach so that it affects the real world. Bowser needs the stars to put the painting worlds in Mario's reality. The fact that they can encompass all of reality would imply that the Power Stars have created universe-sized pocket realities. It is never implied that the stars extend the sizes of the pocket dimensions themselves, but rather that he needs the stars to have them affect Mario's world.

 

[Greenshifter]

This isn't one of the arguments I made, but what? I thought it was well established that dividing Low 2-C gives you Low 2-C anyway? Why are you guys making the argument that they need multiple lumas? Divide it by a million or a couple hundred and you still get the same tier

There's a new rule that states that the sum of parts isn’t necessarily equal to the whole in shared feats. Due to emotional amps and tropes in fiction and the like.

 

[liluzivert]

There's a new rule that states that the sum of parts isn’t necessarily equal to the whole in shared feats. Due to emotional amps and tropes in fiction and the like.

Yes but this is a 4D feat. No one said that the Power Stars are equal to the Grand Stars, its just that they are on the same tier.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

People brought up the Parallel Universe from Color Splash, in that example it actually did say the term "Parallel Universe". So that's goes beyond ("Another World" means "Parallel Universe" by default if it doesn't mean another planet). Yes, the Mushroom Kingdom is located in an actual Universe given the existence of the Milky Way Galaxy and the like. So that's really not a good example. And "Another World" in Mario Galaxy is a bit inconsistent; it's unknown if she's actually referring to Super Luigi Galaxy or just the Mushroom Kingdom's purple coins. Especially since she says the same thing in Super Luigi Galaxy. Though I do agree SLG is another timeline; it's the same plot but takes place in a universe where there are two Luigis and Mario seems nonexistent. But I still am not buying the "Another World" being concrete evidence in the context of Painting Worlds.

Well Color Splash nor Galaxy were meant to be used as evidence to begin with, it's that DRB just for no reason decided to use Color Splash as proof, despite being completely unrelated to 64. So we can dismiss this part, as none of it was the true argument.

Also I did actually read over the #146 post where liluzivert said some lengthy points. The "Encompass All Reality" is still actually contradictory to the painting realms being universal in size individually. It means he can keep expanding his dimensions until they eventually reach universal in size. This still implies he needs multiple Power Stars to create a universe as opposed to a pocket reality when the OP is basically trying to propose one Power Star being enough. Also, the "Multiple Lumas" holding off the Universal big bang and dividing them individually doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of says that multiple Lumas could have a Unity based power up where the combined might of X Lumas is actually a lot greater than X times the power. Lumas/Power Stars technically already have a profile and technically could get a Low 2-C key in the form of the entire species working together has some blatant Low 2-C feats. But it's still iffy to divide Low 2-C by a couple hundred and still say "It still would get Low 2-C or at least High 3-A" based on proposals from other threads. And honestly, I still think the "Infinite sand" statement is actually the closest thing on the list to implying universal, but others are still iffy on that.

Well, no. Because all of reality is referring to Mario's world, a different universe. Also, yet again DDM, you're not getting it. Because I'm not saying encompassing all of reality is a feat itself, hell they just say it's a theory from the top Mushroom Kingdom researchers. But yet again, this is to understand what they mean when they say world. If they say all of reality and world in the same context, that would mean that their definition of world in this game equates to a universe. Also no, because Mario 64 displays that there are secret levels that only contain a single Power Star.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Again, "another world" is being focused on here when the main crux of the argument is that with context from official story descriptions they compare the world of painting to Mario's universe.

Why wouldn't these statements be referring to Mario's universe in conjunction with the painting worlds? What context do we have to imply otherwise? Let's try that angle.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have talked about this on Discord and said that "Possibly Low 2-C" is fine. While "Another world" I still find weak evidence on its own and world consistently means a collection of courses. Most Mario games still usually have "World" mean the same thing within the context of each game. In Mario 3, it means country/kingdom, in Mario Galaxy 2 it means Cluster of Galaxies or Super Galaxy, and in Super Paper Mario it means parallel Universe/Dimension. Mario 64 has a least one "The Real World" statement clearly referring to the Universe where the Mushroom Kingdom is located. And while I'm not saying these alone prove it either, and I also mentioned that "Worldwide Dimension" on its own means little to mean universe but confirms they're 4-A sized pocket realities at bare minimum given the starry sky dimensions. And there's a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements even if flowery in nature. The combination of all of them put together do point to it implying universal stuff.

I do support possibly, but I still told them that we still need more staff input. Meaning I'm overall neutral but considered an agreement for more possibly Low 2-C's. But we either need more neutral staff members or convince Dino. Though I understand Dino Ranger Black might be tired of debating this and also have more skepticism given the absence of "Mirror" or "Parallel" to describe the worlds. Which I also agree with those points specifically though doesn't mean I disagree with the OP's outcome. But other staff members like GyroNuts or others who agreed with the previous thread may be pinged give voice their opinions on the matter.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about the refutation posts?

There was no refute what so ever. They have only proven that the realms are indeed made by Bowser through the Power Stars but not the actual size of them. The point of Color Splash was to showcase a time where the franchise actually showcased a world but actually CONFIRMED it to be an actual a universe with the use of the terms "universe" and "parallel" while being used synonymously with the word, which SM64 DID NOT. So all of Dweebs other examples are pointless because he's only bringing up the worlds that are confirmed to be universes (Except for Super Mario Galaxy. The "Another World" Rosalina is referring to is a level, not an entire universe which further proves why we shouldn't automatically believe any "world" should be classified as a universe since they used it in various different meanings hence why we had specifications). Everyone here are constantly trying to upgrade Power Stars either through fallacious means by mentioning all the other worlds that are straight up said to be universes/parallel in the verse which is pure word play or claiming it isn't a pocket dimension because they didn't say it was when that in itself is a defeated argument since it was never stated to be the opposite case either. We go with what's revealed not what we think or want.

To further cement this argument, let's bring up a franchise that also faced a similar issue years ago: Kirby. Anyone who recalls Returns To Dreamland remembers the level that Magolor amped by the Master Crown has created and destroyed upon his defeated called Another Dimension. He was considered Universal until a CRT revealed that we were not given a clear concise size of the dimension. We were not given details of the dimensions itself and although he said he's going to rule the universe, the context in his statement nor Flavor Text of the was not enough because it didn't explain how nor did it justify the tier. And keep in mind, his powers were still affecting Popstar, as you can see in the background during the battle. These were not enough to justify a Low 2-C rating for Magolor and neither should the Power Stars. This is just one of the many franchises facing the same issue and some had stronger arguments, there's no reason to blindly upgrade Mario when the rules are still applies to everyone. "Another world" does not officially confirm said world being a universe, the "reality" and "real world" are used to describe Mario's home world and not the ones he visited in SM64, and just because we had other examples of worlds and universes being used either in the same context or by lore in some other games, does not mean we should apply it to every single time this word is used in this or every single game. It's a fallacy. They either say they are parallel, a universe, etc like every other game that did before or after, or don't. Period. The whole "Encompass all of reality" is simply referring to his plot in take over the world as the last time we discussed about the feats of SM64, one person managed to point out that Bowser is also creating an army. And even if that's not the case, the lack of time it takes to this is ungiven and the fact he created 15 "universe" just to take over one does not make sense.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Snip about Kirby stuff

Uh, bad comparison because Efi and others are already planning on making Kirby tier 2 for it.

Gonna ignore using future games because Mario games have the tendency to vary for their definition of worlds.

"Another world" does not officially confirm said world being a universe, the "reality" and "real world" are used to describe Mario's home world and not the ones he visited in SM64, and just because we had other examples of worlds and universes being used either in the same context or by lore in some other games, does not mean we should apply it to every single time this word is used in this or every single game. It's a fallacy. They either say they are parallel, a universe, etc like every other game that did before or after, or don't. Period. The whole "Encompass all of reality" is simply referring to his plot in take over the world as the last time we discussed about the feats of SM64, one person managed to point out that Bowser is also creating an army. And even if that's not the case, the lack of time it takes to this is ungiven and the fact he created 15 "universe" just to take over one does not make sense

Here's the issue DRB. The Toads will refer to Mario's world (they'll call it just world too) and all of reality as the same. Because of that, the context there is that world = all of reality aka universe. So if those same Toads that just called that world a universe and then later use Bowser's worlds in the same page and in the same sentence, why would they differ? THAT'S a fallacy, because you're strawmanning my argument. I'm using 64 and 64 only, you're the one bringing up other games for YOUR own argument, despite them being COMPLETELY different in context and plot. I'm using this specific game only. This is repetitive, because we are NOT saying encompassing all of reality is a feat, we are saying it's how they use the word world and what they mean in size. I had this exact same discussion with DDM, we came to the conclusion that it can mean Low 2-C. So I'll tell you what I told him.

We need to know the context for what the word "world" means, as it differs with game to game and context. Let's start with Mario's.

They'll call Mario's world as:

- The real world

- Our world

- All of reality

So it should be clear as day, when referring to Mario's world in this game, they mean universe. I don't think I need to argue why all of reality = universe. So if they're going to call it a world in this context, let's see what they call it for Bowser's.

- These worlds

- Painting worlds

There's a bunch of other examples, but you get the point. They're called worlds. Now, if they're going to call Mario's world a universe in context, and those SAME people in the SAME sentence call the paintings a world, Dino, why would their definition of world change? The Toads in this game will use the term world as a universe, but not use for Bowser in the same sentence? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, world in Mario can mean many things in many games. But in those games, they're consistent with their definitions in those games. If you're going to argue that their context and usage of world is different, then you yourself would need to prove it with evidence from Mario 64 only. Because they never use the term world in a different context. Mind you, all of my evidence comes from the exact same page.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

To make myself a bit more clear, I am super aware that world in Mario has so many different meanings. But each of those games don't change their meanings of world. Anytime Mario 3 does it, it's referring to the different countries. When Galaxy 2 did it, it's the galaxy clusters. When SPM did it, it's the different dimensions. But they're all consistent on how they use it. And 64 is the same. I haven't found anything where they'll use the term world in a different context and/or size. It's all the same.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Your argument is equally as repetitive and is basically reaching because those "real" and "reality" statements are used to describe Mario's world and Mario's world ONLY. Not once were they used to describe Bowser's worlds as you have shown. Actually get confirmations that they are parallel worlds or universes instead of relying on word play and context fabrication to claim that they are Low 2-C worlds. It's simple as that and are the rules established in this wiki. This ultimately proved that your argument is fallacious because despite the long and tedious paragraph, it ultimate boils downs to "Oh, they used the word "world" to describe Mario's world. Since Mario's world is a universe, that means every other world is now automatically a universe." A very poor argument.....

 

[liluzivert]

There was no refute what so ever. They have only proven that the realms are indeed made by Bowser through the Power Stars but not the actual size of them. The point of Color Splash was to showcase a time where the franchise actually showcased a world but actually CONFIRMED it to be an actual a universe with the use of the terms "universe" and "parallel" while being used synonymously with the word, which SM64 DID NOT. So all of Dweebs other examples are pointless because he's only bringing up the worlds that are confirmed to be universes

Everyone has their own views on vs topics, it's nothing new. But claiming there's no refutes without even responding to all of the points above? Seriously? You can't say we don't have refutes, but then also not go over all of them. And it's even worse that you're flat out strawmanning our points as well.

The whole "Encompass all of reality" is simply referring to his plot in take over the world as the last time we discussed about the feats of SM64, one person managed to point out that Bowser is also creating an army.

Especially here. Yes encompassing all of reality is Bowser taking over the world, but that doesn't even remotely debunk the notion that he's using the painting worlds to encompass all of reality. It's literally stated in the links we've given out multiple times. And for some reason you still think it's a feat for Bowser and not pointing out the sizes of the paintings. You would've known this if you covered all the points. And what does Bowser creating an army have to do with this argument? How does it even remotely debunk the points at hand?

And even if that's not the case, the lack of time it takes to this is ungiven and the fact he created 15 "universe" just to take over one does not make sense.

No one cares about the time frame bro. You're implying something no one is even saying. The clear point is that Bowser is using the painting worlds to encompass all reality. Which indicates painting size. And creating 15 different realities means nothing if those realities cannot affect the real world, which is what Bowser literally uses the power stars for. He's clearly trying to use the power stars, to break the spatial-temporal barrier, so that the paintings affect Mario's world. And they can encompass the entire reality of Mario's world. Indicating size. Which is the main point of this thread...

And the simple fact that there's clear usage of world for both the painting world and the real world would imply universal size anyway, which correlates with everything we have been saying so far. There has been no evidence that supports 4-A in any form.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But your own argument from before was trying to use how contextually in other games we could infer the sizes of the "worlds" in them. Why are you now doubling down on this one and ignoring the contextual part?

I figure It's common sense, aka occam's razor to assume someone saying "our world" when referring to the main dimension and then saying "that other world..." implies they are both contextually similar. Coupled with "infinite underworld" sandy pits, no bottoms in a few (evidence that was simply brushed off as flowery language but is STILL evidence nontheless and directly stated in-game and supported by the guide), and the fact Power Stars DO have the necessary range to reach all of reality, I don't see why this specific game can't have universe-sized realms.

"They could've just flat-out used universes instead of 'worlds.'"

Yes, but they could've also said "sub-worlds" or "pocket dimensions" too. Your argument doesn't have much evidence besides what you feel, and saying that these are the customs of the wiki.

"We weren't given a definitive size and Kirby... Vague... Blah blah," yes, we were. Your side just chose to ignore it because you personally FEEL it's flowery language when there are two statements of infinite-sized realms both in-game and in a guide. Why isn't it literal? Because it's a "game mechanic" to have bottomless pits and Mario is a game? Last I checked they were never directly mentioned in-game before or referred to as "underworlds". And besides, various other game mechanics are shown to be basically canon to the marioverse. But I suppose that should be a separate CRT.

I've seen no legitimate reason to excuse this. Other "bottomless pits" are mentioned directly as obstacles in a level to avoid and thus referring to the gameplay itself. These statements are referring specifically to the dimensions of the place, not the game mechanic. These are describing words, adjectives referring to the dimensions of a world. This makes even less sense when you figure Power Stars can both create and nullify an infinite spatial loop, so why couldn't they have also been able to create these worlds with no bottom and the "infinite underworlds"?

They have the range (all of reality) and the powers to create and nullify an infinite spatial loop, and created worlds where some are described as having no bottom and lead to infinite underworlds.

Why doesn't this all back each other up well? Why shouldn't these be taken literally? Why don't Power Stars being used by the same bosses who used Grand Stars and Lumas contributing to a Low 2-C feat who can become Power Stars all support this greatly?

The opposition has little leeway in the form of refutations beyond claims of fallacies and flowery language when that should all be judged on a case-by-case basis for a series like Mario, especially with all the evidence gathered.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's... that's argument from ignorance. Why would the Toads use the same word but with a different meaning on the same sentence? They're going to use the word world like that and then suddenly use a completely different meaning because...? Arguments like that require proof. PROVE that their definitions and meanings change. I shouldn't need to only have proof like "parallel" in the name to fit your standard, you realize not every pocket universe will be parallel in looks. Who goes "our world (universe) is in danger" and then say "that other world" with a new meaning? Wording doesn't work like that Dino, I need proof or I'm not arguing your own headcanons that suddenly they change up their whole meanings.

 

[Antvasima]

Dino seems to make sense to me. We should be very careful with considerable upgrades if there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding the foundations for them.

@Crazylatin77 @GyroNutz @Starter_Pack @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I have talked about this on Discord and said that "Possibly Low 2-C" is fine. While "Another world" I still find weak evidence on its own and world consistently means a collection of courses. Most Mario games still usually have "World" mean the same thing within the context of each game. In Mario 3, it means country/kingdom, in Mario Galaxy 2 it means Cluster of Galaxies or Super Galaxy, and in Super Paper Mario it means parallel Universe/Dimension. Mario 64 has a least one "The Real World" statement clearly referring to the Universe where the Mushroom Kingdom is located. And while I'm not saying these alone prove it either, and I also mentioned that "Worldwide Dimension" on its own means little to mean universe but confirms they're 4-A sized pocket realities at bare minimum given the starry sky dimensions. And there's a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements even if flowery in nature. The combination of all of them put together do point to it implying universal stuff.

I do support possibly, but I still told them that we still need more staff input. Meaning I'm overall neutral but considered an agreement for more possibly Low 2-C's. But we either need more neutral staff members or convince Dino. Though I understand Dino Ranger Black might be tired of debating this and also have more skepticism given the absence of "Mirror" or "Parallel" to describe the worlds. Which I also agree with those points specifically though doesn't mean I disagree with the OP's outcome. But other staff members like GyroNuts or others who agreed with the previous thread may be pinged give voice their opinions on the matter.

DDM already gave his input so you don't need to ask

 

[Antvasima]

I was referring to if he could evaluate Dino's new arguments.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well as others said, it seems the Magolor example might get brought up in the future. But Dino Ranger Black is basically repeating some other details I also agree with such as "Negative doesn't require evidence but positive does." He is correct that the absence of the word Parallel or Mirror which is used in both future Mario games and other Nintendo franchises of the same era creates skepticism on the feat being universal to begin with.

But as others said, I cannot think of times other Mario games have a character in the same sentence use world to describe a universe and world to describe a planet or anywhere in between in the same paragraph in the like. Though, I think Super Mario Galaxy 1 might be vague about it, as "A new world" is vague if it refers to Super Luigi Galaxy aka another Universe, or simply the Mushroom Kingdom bonus stage. But that's probably the only example I can think of for now. So I basically just want to be fair to both sides but I will note I am clearly against assuming a solid Low 2-C by default for assuming the Power Stars. At best only a possibly Low 2-C. And Dino is also right about the various loopholes that it could lead to. Plus, the "Encompass all reality" statement still implies it requires multiple Painting Realms put together just to reach the size of "Reality" or "The Real World". The upgrade side has acknowledge that that statement is not a feat but still makes some decent points about the multiple arguments while weak individually do point to universal stuff if put together. But as Dino said, that statement actually kind of anti-feats the idea of painting worlds being universal individually.

But overall, I'd prefer to let the outcome be decided via other staff members who have yet to comment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I hope that the staff members that I called earlier will help out here then.

 

[liluzivert]

Plus, the "Encompass all reality" statement still implies it requires multiple Painting Realms put together just to reach the size of "Reality" or "The Real World". The upgrade side has acknowledge that that statement is not a feat but still makes some decent points about the multiple arguments while weak individually do point to universal stuff if put together. But as Dino said, that statement actually kind of anti-feats the idea of painting worlds being universal individually.

But overall, I'd prefer to let the outcome be decided via other staff members who have yet to comment.

The statement "encompass all reality" is something that can be interpreted as "he merges all universes as one" or "he inserts all realms seperately and takes up the space in the universe." But I brought it up as universal because it would be consistent with other showings and actually doesn't contradict anything. Bowser merging 15 universes together instead of one actually gives him far more control over it and also creates even more chaos in the real world. And it's been established at this point that I agree with the worlds referring to universes.

What I'm saying is that 4-A is much less likely than Low 2-C. If we really wanted to argue the semantics of whether each world will be insert separately instead of together, we divide the universe's diameter by 15 (the amount of levels) to get 6,200,000,000 light years. Divide that by 100,000 (the light years of the milky way) and you'd get 6200 different galaxies. Which means that this low end would not be 4-A, but rather Multi-Galaxy, or 3-B. 3-B is not a consistent showing for Mario, yet Low 2-C is far, far more consistent. These worlds being 4-A would actually contradict both the story and the consistency itself, but Low 2-C doesn't contradict anything, considering like i said before, Bowser can mesh the universes together to have more control and power in Mario's universe. Considering that one can already encompass Mario's world, while 15 4-A pocket realms wouldn't even be close, I'd say Low 2-C makes far more sense. And if we really want to choose a low end, then the tier would be 3-B and thus still remove the 4-A tiering, considering it's inconsistent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That would imply he's in the Multiversal department rather than Universal actually if we're going to assume he merges all the Painting Realms together and with the Real World. Which is honestly even more assumptive than the previous proposals. Also, the dividing it to 3-B like that would only really work if they were 3-A as opposed to Low 2-C stuff.

 

[liluzivert]

That would imply he's in the Multiversal department rather than Universal actually if we're going to assume he merges all the Painting Realms together and with the Real World. Which is honestly even more assumptive than the previous proposals. Also, the dividing it to 3-B like that would only really work if they were 3-A as opposed to Low 2-C stuff.

To be fair, he can still merge the worlds as intersections rather than the entire universe itself. But whether you really want to argue that it's multiversal or not, you really couldn't argue 4-A at this point at all. While a universal sized realm can encompass reality, multiple 4-A realms really couldn't. There's 100 billion stars in the milky way alone. Multiplying multiple stars by 15 wouldn't even reach Galaxy level sizes, and these are the same realms that are supposed to be able to encompass Mario's universe. Either way, 4-A has got to go if we're using this argument to imply everything contradicts each other.

And it's even crazier to assume 15 4-A realms can encompass a Low 2-C space-time continuum, something that's supposed to be uncountably greater than 3D. I'd argue that multiversal would be more logical than that, and I don't even agree with that at all.

Either the worlds are universes, or their multi-galaxy sized pocket dimensions. 4-A is completely out of the question at this point.

 

[liluzivert]

Lastly, I'll just say this. Dino and Medeus, if you think 4-A should stay, then prove to everyone that 15 4-A realms can encompass an entire universe. If not, then 4-A should be removed. At this point, I really don't care whether the stars get a 3-B or Low 2-C rating. But if they do get those ratings, then 4-A is gone and Mario's tier just becomes a pure Low 2-C.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, that is also a good point. Encompassing means overtaking something completely. Covering all of it. Becoming one with the entire thing because the thing encompassing the subject would naturally be assumed to be larger than it, which is something you guys are also missing. To encompass all of reality, Bowser would need these worlds to be larger than the reality he wishes to encompass, otherwise it's not encompassing reality at all.

If his goal was to encompass all of reality, then these realms only being at max MSS in size wouldn't help him accomplish that at all. It's an upgrade regardless because that statement also makes it an anti-feat against them being 4-A.

Should I remind everyone that 4-A for Power Stars isn't even that consistent itself? Their only feats are Mario 64, Galaxy, and then I think Party too, and every other feat besides 64 was like, 4-C (black hole and constellation in Party). We now have context that implies these painting realms may be bigger than MSS due to them needing to encompass all of reality, and scaling to what Lumas can already do (minus the Low 2-C scaling they can also reasonably recieve, mind you), they would also have a 3-C scaling due to being >= a Luma.

64 would be the only place to my knowledge where 4-A would come from, but as we can see, there exists context to show it may not JUST be 4-A

And to acknowledge the argument, "extend his painting worlds so that they encompass all of reality" doesn't mean he would be expanding the realm's sizes (honestly why create them with most of the Stars at your disposal and NOT have them be the size you wanted and need more time to expand them? It just doesn't make any logical sense). It's likely just making portals or whatever spatio-temporal trickery so that the realms can effect the real world as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Aren't the 4-A statistics placed there due to the inconsistency of the characters from game to game?

 

[Greenshifter]

Aren't the 4-A statistics placed there due to the inconsistency of the characters from game to game?

Most of the justifications for 4-A come from Power Stars which this thread is revising.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but if the Power Stars are also inconsistent from game to game, that rationale should still likely apply.

 

[Greenshifter]

2 out of 3 games where the current 4-A feats come from for Power Stars are argued to both actually have Low 2-C feats for them, I don't think inconsistency is the problem here (well it could be a problem if you ignore the low 2-C feats). The other game doesn't have an anti-feat for them and goes along with the power stars/lumas become celestial bodies thing from Super Mario Galaxy.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'd also like to point out you already need a space-time at least 1/15th the size of the Real World's universal space-time continuum which should qualify for being Low 2-C themselves (I mean the energy needed to create them in this case would downscale from Low 2-C, which is still Low 2-C), whether or not he needs all Power Stars to do it can still be up for discussion, but since 1 realm was created by 1 power star it would make sense that the expansion of an individual realm is also accomplished by using a single power star.

 

[liluzivert]

Okay, but if the Power Stars are also inconsistent from game to game, that rationale should still likely apply.

It wouldn't. 4-A does not work in any way. The low end of this feat via extreme nitpicking is multi-galaxy, and on Mario's page the only reason why he has 4-A in the first place is due to scaling to the power stars in 64 and power moons in Odyssey (which are stated to be comparable) and the Lumas who are 3-C (and they can also scale to the ending of Galaxy, which would be consistent with a Low 2-C rating.) And many people right now (including myself) are arguing that the worlds in Mario 64 are indeed universal sized.

In other words, 4-A isn't really an accurate tier. Either we get 2 Multi-Galaxy (3-B) feats, and one Galaxy Level feat (3-C). Or all of the feats become Low 2-C considering the arguments and the consistency. Either way, 4-A should not be argued at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Well, if that is true, you seem to have a point, but I would prefer if other staff members evaluate this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are still 3 4-A feats outside of Power Stars; King Boo's dimension, Brobot's Dimension destruction, and Pop Up Book World. 4-A is an absolute lowend for Power Star feats in Mario 64; which Power Stars individually have feats in the Galaxy games ranging from High 4-C to 3-C. But even so, I'm unsure about assuming the Painting Worlds are 1/15th the size of the Universe. Which by the way even outside of space-time continuums, there is confirmation that Universes in Mario contain an infinite amount of 3-D space.

And this is all excluding the separation of space-time continuums. Meaning 3-B would not work at all and 1/15th of High 3-A is still High 3-A and combine that with having different flows of time makes them all Low 2-C individually.

But I still think Dino is right for other reasons, the Encompassing all reality doesn't mean all 15 of them together are the same size as the real world. Only that he will over time expand those worlds to reach Universal size whether it be creating multiple worlds or making the 15 realms grow bigger. If he could create 15 universes already, I'd assume he'd be able to encompass the real world rather instantly.

So I'm against assuming a random middle 3-B, I'm only okay with 4-A being the absolute minimum. And I know Dino is still against Low 2-C, but I'm neutral whether or not they are Low 2-C.

Note: I'd upload them on Imgur to save space, but Imgur is being glitchy for me for some reason.