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Potential Upgrade to Arceus' Power Null (Or a mountain of new resistances)

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Looking even deeper, I also take issue with Arceus having "Should possess Dialga's Time Crystal TCG ability" as a reason behind its power null without any sort of qualifiers, as once again, Time Crystal is a specific power that only nullifies Poke-Bodies. At best, this is power null with some notable restrictions, but I think the bigger issue here is how TCG powers are treated, in general.
 
>WHat I was saying about using game mechanics is that if we are to use something that is purely a game mechanic like this we need to consider it by the rules established by that game mechanic. This means we wouldn't scale it out to Darkrai's thing because the two mechanics never interact.

Darkrai's Dark Cleave, again, does interact with the opponent because it's move is bypassing their resistance. Unless a resistance is suddenly not naturally apart of an individual (much less someone whos omnipresent but this doesnt mean much overall), it is interacting with them. I've had to point this out like 4 times now.

>Okay, but again, none of this is remotely based on the lore. It's not even based on descriptions from the TCG. It's entirely based on stuff that exists purely as game mechanics, and because of that, even taking all of this at face value, none of these are resisted unless added on to another attack.

And again, since when and why is lore needed for an ability to legit? Lore isn't a required standard for a pokemon ability to be real and this case shouldnt be either. Especially since the TCG moves have been proven to be real by several other pokemon (from the examples that i've posted), why Arceus's is suddenly being called into question is a borderline farce. Unless "resistances" and "effects" are suddenly game mechanics for pokemon in general now, it is not a game mechanic.

>Similarly, again going back to Progenitus

First off, using "immunity" here doesnt really make your example any better Azzy. The example is already wrong because immunities in this context are NLF's. They'd be resistances.

Second, I cannot specifically speak about Progenitus here because I know nothing of the verse he comes from. So im only going to be speaking for the context of Arceus here unless Progenitus's part in this is detailed out for me to understand.

>This is a ridiculous way of gathering powers for something without anything in the lore to actually back it up.

Except, from the perspective of the god tiers, it's not ridiculous.

Unless your saying Arceus cannot resist the powers of his creations. Creations that are not only parts of himself, but creations he has also shown to have their powers nulled by him. And mon who are even inferior to them. I would agree with you here if this was about giving Arceus resistances to every power in Pokemon in general. But thats not what this is about and was agreed to not be the case.

>Imagine thinking that the game mechanics rules for a freaking trading card game is valid

Because, in the context of Pokemon, it is valid? Very valid? Where we have an entire manga with storylines and backstories about the pokemon becoming cards in the first place? Where the moves from the TCG are blatantly displayed to be real?

How this is "just game mechanics" is beyond me at this point.

>"Shadow Force in the TCG has a 50% chance of making the opponent's next attack completely useless, damage, hax, and all."

This is bullshit. We know what the attack is based on (Shadow Force), and the reason nothing affects Giratina when he does this is because he straight up vanishes. You can see this happen in the games.

This is not entirely true, and your talking to someone whos looking through the TCG as we speak to make future blogs of these abilities. The TCG has their own unique versions of moves that actually do apply power nullish haxes to their moves. Whether Giratina's is specifically wrong or not is up for debate but im just clarifying that this point is wrong because Shadow Force is not the only move that does this. Many moves do.

>Once again, lying by omission. Renegade Pulse only affects Megas

Like you said, via verse equalization, mega evolved pokemon are literally no different than characters transformed. So im not seeing the problem with this.

>Mewtwo is immune to anything from a verse without some concept of evolution

Resistant. And this is literally just a limited form of power null against anything that doesnt have an evolution or transformation.

>Looking even deeper, I also take issue with Arceus having "Should possess Dialga's Time Crystal TCG ability" as a reason behind its power null without any sort of qualifiers

Anything Dialga has, Arceus has, for being Arceus's creation. This is self explanatory honestly.

>as once again, Time Crystal is a specific power that only nullifies Poke-Bodies.

Poke-Bodies are literally no different than Pokemon Abilities except that they are actively used, not passive. So im not seeing the issue with this either.
 
I think that Azathoth makes sense, as usual.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Imagine thinking that the game mechanics rules for a freaking trading card game is valid lore to give overpowered power nuliffication for Arceus.

This is so wrong I can't even begin.
Click to expand...
While I don't disagree with what Azzy said about some of these rules being misinterpreted, it's not like there isn't evidence backing up the canonicity. While I don't believe it's the end all be all, it'd be nice if someone were to address it before labeling it nonsense.
 
While I don't disagree with what Azzy said about some of these rules being misinterpreted, it's not like there isn't evidence backing up the canonicity. While I don't believe it's the end all be all, it'd be nice if someone were to address it before labeling it nonsense.

Isn't this also a similar situation with Yugioh, too, regarding the canoncity and validity of applied effects/abilities, too?

P.s. sry if that was somewhat off topic
 
Nah, Yu-Gi-Oh! has a bunch of stuff that has to be applied before effects can be used. It helps that there are large storylines behind the TCG cards on their own.
 
Yobo Blue said:
Nah, Yu-Gi-Oh! has a bunch of stuff that has to be applied before effects can be used. It helps that there are large storylines behind the TCG cards on their own.
Click to expand...
This makes the way a lot of the Pokemon TCG effects are applied even worse.
 
I mentioned that above. They're is a similar type of canonical evidence above, though not as much. Have you seen it already?
 
Yes. The issue is less "the Pokemon TCG effects are based on nothing" and more "what the effects are based on is currently subject to incredible amounts of assumption not even supported by the actual rules, in-game".
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Yes. The issue is less "the Pokemon TCG effects are based on nothing" and more "what the effects are based on is currently subject to incredible amounts of assumption not even supported by the actual rules, in-game".
Click to expand...
Okay. I can see that that is in fact the case, and am in agreement on that point in all honesty.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Yes. The issue is less "the Pokemon TCG effects are based on nothing" and more "what the effects are based on is currently subject to incredible amounts of assumption not even supported by the actual rules, in-game".
Click to expand...
100% agree.

The worst part imo is that this already happened in the past regarding the artwork of the cards being used to upgrade pokémon's AP.

Yes, the manga establishes the cards as "legit", however, the card makes room for a lot of assumptions since it's primarily riddled with game mechanics. Even if we say that what appears on the card happened for real, we don't know "how" nor anything specific.

That's why in the past I was not in favor of using any card for any pokémon, including legendaries.
 
But what about the case for non-canon Digi-..... You know what? Forget bout it. This thing with canonity or not for any verse is just kinda flipping the coin with a few pieces of evidence here and there.
 
This isn't even about being canon.

It's about taking game mechanics without clear lore behind them and blowing them up beyond what is even allowed by said game mechanics.

See the Giratina examples, in which mention is never made of the fact this supposed power null only works on BREAK and Mega 'mons, despite the fact these are restrictions clearly laid out on the card itself.
 
If a card has a very literal effect based entirely in game mechanics, either use the effect as it is written (ex: Giratina can nullify the abilities of BREAKs and the attacks of Megas, that's it) or don't use it at all.

We should not be trying to use single-sentence TCG effects to add tons of new resistances or powers to profiles and then have absolutely nothing substantial to back them up.
 
So what needs to be done here?
 
Aside from get rid of the TCG powers that have been overblown on Giratina and Arceus' pages, I don't really know.

I'm not sure how many other pages have similar stuff used to similarly inaccurate levels, if any others even do.
 
Okay.

Is anybody experienced here willing to help out with applying the edits?
 
I could really easily fix it, right now. Assuming that's what you want.

The issue is, as I mentioned, that I don't know if other pages have similar problems.
 
@Cal

Do other Pokemon profiles also need to be updated accordingly?
 
@Cal

Okay. Thank you for the information.
 
Removed the stuff I noticed on Arceus, Mewtwo, and Giratina's pages.

I don't know what to look for on Darkrai and Dialga's pages. Could you help me out with that, Cal?
 
Sure. I might not have touched Dialga's though and I might be misremembering. But I'm 90% sure I've touched Darkrai's.
 
The real cal howard said:
Sure. I might not have touched Dialga's though and I might be misremembering. But I'm 90% sure I've touched Darkrai's.
Click to expand...
Oh I see.
 
I still believe Arceus and Giratina have Power Null, but not like the TCG lore. I mean, Heal Block IS a form of Power Null, right?

Meh, I'm probably gonna get this brushed off, anyway.
 
Anyways, with this nerf instead of upgrade, though (I think), I think I've given up trying to add anything Pokémon-related, except for a few upgrade-only threads on occasions.

There's nothing left for me to follow or add here. This is pretty much a done deal, I'm assuming. We can close this now?
 
Well, the agreed upon changes need to be applied first.
 
@Antvasima I saw that Azzy went ahead with removing Power Null completely. Tbh, though, I'm pretty sure Arceus's Conceptual Creation can kinda accomplish a Power Null-like outcome, so I guess it doesn't really change too much of anything prior to this thread.
 
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