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Potential Chara upgrade

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@SpecN

The quote you used for "alternative history" described the genre of fiction, not the theory itself. There's also the fact that it mentions time travel (which going by multiverse theory, would indeed place you in an alternate universe) and uses the word "dimensional" in a fictional context and not a scientific one.

You also missed this quote.

Parallel universes may be the backdrop to or the consequence of time travel, their most common use in fiction if the concept is central to the story.
 
SpecN said:
@Azathoth
"Ordinarily, alternative histories are not technically parallel universes. The concepts are similar but there are significant differences. Where characters travel to the past, they may cause changes in the timeline (creating a point of divergence) that result in changes to the present. The alternative present will be similar in different degrees to the original present as would be the case with a parallel universe. The main difference is that parallel universes co-exist whereas only one history or alternative history can exist at any one moment. Another difference is that moving to a parallel universe involves some inter-dimensional travel whereas alternative histories involve some type of time travel. (However, since the future is only potential and not actual, it is often conceived that more than one future may exist simultaneously.)"

So again, why couldn't "timeline" just refer to the Earth or underground of an alternate universe? Also, one of the prominent concepts in Undertale is time-manipulation rather than dimensional manipulation, which would fit with the above.

@Promestein I'm not downplaying, I just want to be absolutely sure.
Click to expand...
yes, so a timeline is linked to the timetraveler, the infinite thing doesn't just come from a single route you can do, but from the timeline created by everything Frisk and Flowey have done. a timeline where Frisk kills toriel then reverts time to spare her is different from one where they spare her right off the bat
 
Look, I get it the time-manipulation is certainly on a universal scale because you don't change time in just one region of the universe without secluding that region of space, the destruction itself though....

So timeline indeed refers to parallel universe, I concede, but that doesn't mean it couldn't refer to something else, for example, if we're suddnely transported to a version of Earth where people don't know what shoes are, we would call it an alternate timeline, the description fits. So again, it could be that Chara is destroying countless Earths rather than countless universes.

And Azathoth, about the whole black screen thing, let's not forget that Chara is basically destroying the game, the ACTUAL game, it's like a 4th wall kind of ability when viewing it within the context of the game instead of the context of a story, so let's not argue visuals on that one.
 
although if timelines also depend on the time travel of several individuals who used the power countless times at least that could easily create infinite timelines
 
SpecN said:
And Azathoth, about the whole black screen thing, let's not forget that Chara is basically destroying the game, the ACTUAL game, it's like a 4th wall kind of ability when viewing it within the context of the game instead of the context of a story, so let's not argue visuals on that one.
Click to expand...
Yes, Chara is destroying the game, but the game is what contains all of said timelines, which is, as I initially said, actually more impressive than I initially gave them credit for.
 
Heck, if we view all feats within the context of a videgame rather than a story, they could have legitimate 4th wall powers, or maybe conceptual manipulation. Like the Witches of Umineko and how they view the actual games as chessboards.
 
SpecN said:
Heck, if we view all feats within the context of a videgame rather than a story, they could have legitimate 4th wall powers, or maybe conceptual manipulation. Like the Witches of Umineko and how they view the actual games as chessboards.
Click to expand...
Part of what makes meta hax so potent, most of the time.
 
SpecN said:
Look, I get it the time-manipulation is certainly on a universal scale because you don't change time in just one region of the universe without secluding that region of space, the destruction itself though....
So timeline indeed refers to parallel universe, I concede, but that doesn't mean it couldn't refer to something else, for example, if we're suddnely transported to a version of Earth where people don't know what shoes are, we would call it an alternate timeline, the description fits. So again, it could be that Chara is destroying countless Earths rather than countless universes.

And Azathoth, about the whole black screen thing, let's not forget that Chara is basically destroying the game, the ACTUAL game, it's like a 4th wall kind of ability when viewing it within the context of the game instead of the context of a story, so let's not argue visuals on that one.
Click to expand...

as has been said many times, things in Undertale are presented to be very literal and it is pretty much stated by sans that what Chara destroys are timelines
 
The thing is that everything in Undertale is meta as shit, we don't quite know where the boundary between serious and joke 4th wall breaking is.
 
Heck, we may as well be viewing their feats in a wrong way. All of this meta stuff where the UI can somehow be affected by the characters and actually has an influence on he story....maybe their powers are not focused on destruction at all, maybe it's just conceptual manipulation but on an impressive level. I think the Umineko analogy is not too far off.
 
Anyway, since I feel it's important the restate this, here's my initial point:

  • Chara destroyed the game itself, which has contained, does contain, and will contain a countless number of alternate timelines created by individuals such as Frisk and Flowey.
  • Destroying this game is, unlike I initially believed, a 2-B to 2-A feat.
  • Omega Flowey is superior to Chara by an absolutely ludicrous amount.
  • Asriel using a tiny fraction of his power was infinitely superior to Omega Flowey.
  • Full power Asriel performed Chara's game-busting feat just by existing.
  • Therefore, upgrades.
 
Again, agreed with Azzy. Everything makes sense and is consistent with what was shown in the game, nor are they exceptionally outlandish anyways. It's clear that timelines are being destroyed, and that Chara destroyed a LOT of them, and that Flowey can be scaled as stronger than them and etc etc etc.
 
Alright, so that's like four or so people who agree. I would like to hear some more opinions before making any changes, but with all due respect to everyone reading this, I'd like if we could keep it to what I posted above, as I would really like to get some content revised from this content revision thread.
 
The Everlasting said:
Meh, I kinda feel Asriel should remain High 2-A and God Flowey just 2-A, but I can otherwise agree.
Click to expand...
He's only 2-C, right now.

Unless you mean he should be upgraded to High 2-A and not Low 1-C, which I can see as reasonable.
 
Hey man I agree too don't forget me ;-;.

And I personally think we could put a potentially High 2-A for Flowey and a potentially Low 1-C for Asriel as a compromise.
 
Alright. So that's 6.

While I think Flowey could be fine as just 2-A, would "possibly Low 1-C" be acceptable for everyone, when regarding full power Asriel (due to incredibly holding back Asriel is infinitely stronger than Flowey, and full power Asriel is an unknown but incredibly large amount stronger)?
 
Actually, I take back what I said, I can see God Flowey being High 2-A and Asriel being Low 1-C.

What does this do for Frisk though?
 
The Everlasting said:
Actually, I take back what I said, I can see God Flowey being High 2-A and Asriel being Low 1-C.
What does this do for Frisk though?
Click to expand...
possibly 2-A with possible 1-C level durability when at max determinatio
 
@Undylan

Alright. 7 in agreement, then.

@Saikou

I think this thread may be too much of a clusterf*@# for that lol

@Everlasting

Likely makes Frisk Multiverse+ in AP and Low Complex Multiverse in durability (for maximum Determination, of course).
 
I think 7 people is all that's needed for an upgrade to happen.

So Chara can be upgraded to 2-A, God Flowey and Frisk to High 2-A and Asriel to Low 1-C.

Don't forget changing the tier reasoning on Sans' page btw.
 
Frisk would be about 2-A to High 2-A in DC, but High 2-A to Low 1-C in durability from his showings. He was strong enough to beat Flowey by himself, Flowey just reset everything before he lost and trapped you, and he tanked Asriel's strongest attack with like .0000000001 HP.
 
Pikachu942 said:
Hey man I agree too don't forget me ;-;.

And I personally think we could put a potentially High 2-A for Flowey and a potentially Low 1-C for Asriel as a compromise.
Click to expand...
Yeah I agree with this.
 
Alright. I'll leave this comment here for (future generations) clarification, then.

Since 7 individuals are in agreement after a lengthy discussion, I am going to upgrade the statistics. If anyone has any concerns prior to these changes, you may leave a message on my wall.
 
DontTalk said:
Do not really know the verse, but why 1-C?
Click to expand...
Low 1-C. When using only a tiny portion of his power, Asriel was literally infinitely superior to Omega Flowey, who should be well within 2-A. After unleashing his full power, Asriel accomplished Flowy's/Chara's game destroying feat just by existing, along with becoming unfathomably more powerful.
 
DontTalk said:
I do not think you can determine higher dimensionality based on that.
Click to expand...
Isn't multiplying something by infinite basically adding an extra dimension to it or am I misunderstanding how it works?

Ya see, these infinite discussions are the main reason the series I stick by stay firmly in Tier 2 at best.
 
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